Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."

[JCG]

Really thought, more women creatives would really make things less worse.
At least games should start being more influenced by Shojo, Josei and otome stuff as a start.

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This and all the previous talk regarding the Xenoblade games has made me start to wonder about how otome VNs handle polyamorous relationships. I know that presumably such a topic falls outside of the main scope of this thread, but I would imagine they're less sexist yet not completely un-problematic.

It's funny Fate already got mentioned because I found that out the hard way with the original Fate Stay Night visual novel. Read it because it got recommended and then got to the... Eroge bit.

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Fate as an overarching property still contains a lot of sexualization in terms of character designs and other narrative-related elements, but at least it has moved away rather decisively from its origins. To the extent it's easier, commercially speaking, to find and purchase the non-R18 versions of the VN these days.

 

[Foot]

Yeah I confused it with the hot springs quest but it does happen.


View: https://youtu.be/dzybAuGF0IE&t=1m02s

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Good gosh the writing in that game is tedious. Like, GET ON WITH IT. This joke will never be funny, and dragging it out five minutes longer than it needed to be certainly doesn't help!

 

[Vee]

It's funny Fate already got mentioned because I found that out the hard way with the original Fate Stay Night visual novel. Read it because it got recommended and then got to the... Eroge bit.

Spoiler: Fate Stay Night spoilers

The dude having to have sex with saber because his sperm gives her energy back when she was weakened? Lmao.

Its just hilarious because if you want to add sex in just do it. There's no need for such silly explanations or trying to make it necessary for the plot.

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I could be super wrong because its been a min but I remember reading something about how the team or whatever of OG Fate were forced to put H scenes in because of some rule that VNs needed them or something and that they really didn't want those scenes in.

Someone that read it even said that scenes feel so out of place and could be easily written out and nothing of value would be lost.

Edit: apparently Nasu didn't originally want those scenes in but was afraid that a VN without them wouldn't sell and playing through the game without the H scenes is how the creators truly envisioned it. Got this from a reddit post from 2015 so that must be where I remember this from.

 

[Keiriks]

I could be super wrong because its been a min but I remember reading something about how the team or whatever of OG Fate were forced to put H scenes in because of some rule that VNs needed them or something and that they really didn't want those scenes in.

Someone that read it even said that scenes feel so out of place and could be easily written out and nothing of value would be lost.

Edit: apparently Nasu didn't originally want those scenes in but was afraid that a VN without them wouldn't sell and playing through the game without the H scenes is how the creators truly envisioned it. Got this from a reddit post from 2015 so that must be where I remember this from.

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I believe it. The first two routes have like max two H scenes each and literally nothing is lost from skipping them. It's only in the third route where (some of) the sex scenes are at all relevant to the plot.

And just a side note but the writing in the H scenes is amazingly unsexy. Lots of seafood metaphors.

 

[Isilia]

Ah nothing makes me hot like a bunch of seafood wordplay.

- Seamus, maybe

 

[Uzzy]

That Xenoblade pic.

Oh wow. Woooooooooooooooooow. That's taking anime too far. Goddamnit.

 

[Kyuuji]

Wild to me how some people can look at the image and say they don't see anything weird about it lol. Especially off the back of what a sexist mess XC2 was.

 

[Capra]

Taking a peek at how people in other threads are defending it is really fucking wild.

Spoiler: Xenoblade 3

"It's like 3 seconds!" I mean yeah, it can be an infinitely small part of the game and still warrant criticism.
"We don't have context!" The picture alone speaks volumes with how it frames the characters in it.
"You're anti-polyamory/polygamy!" Once again, framing matters. You can present a polyamorous relationship without being so fucking creepy about it.
"There's nothing wrong with it!" My brother in Christ, if you don't see something off-putting about the male lead of the previous game standing dominantly over his three love interests as they sit demurely with their color-coded babies while everyone else in the picture displays more personality then like, I cannot help you.

Edit: "Their in-game characterization contradicts your reading, so it's wrong!" Their body language in this picture and the power dynamic it conveys can be creepy even if their established characterization goes against that... If anything that makes it worse. Why does this need to be explained

 

[xendless]

People co-opt social justice language as defence of trash
What else is new

 

[Foot]

People co-opt social justice language as defence of trash
What else is new

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It's sex positive

 

[Kikujiro]

Wild to me how some people can look at the image and say they don't see anything weird about it lol. Especially off the back of what a sexist mess XC2 was.

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As others said, people who are used to consume this kind of anime shit are completely desensitized. The worst part is that for them it's so normal that they are going to consider you the strange one for criticizing it.
That image literally screams of 4chan otaku harem dream coming to life, women exist only to satisfy the sexual desire of the clueless protagonist and to be the bearer of his child, and they are so happy to be with him, they will let him impregnate other love interests at the same time.

And this is not just some anime fetishism, this is the conservative males dream, the patriarchal society they would love to live in.

 

[xendless]

It's sex positive

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You see it's both subversive and progressive that the self insert fantasy hero can have 3 barefoot pregnant doting sword wives
Your criticism of such reveals an internalised toxic masculinity that a man must dominate 1 sword wife and cannot be generous in undermining heteronormativity in sharing his body between by 3 women, Nintendo understands this
Please do not bring up Row v Wade it's insensitive

 

[Morrigan]

People co-opt social justice language as defence of trash
What else is new

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Yeeeeep

 

[Toxi]

Spoiler: Xenoblade 3

The way Rex is posed is the worst thing for me. That's not a gesture of tenderness, that's body language for "These are mine".

It's really creepy that he's not looking at or touching any of them.

 

[Moogle]

 

[Morrigan]

I love the "it's a 3 second clip" defense. So fucking what. The groping scene in Trails of Cold Steel 3 only lasts a few seconds too, but if it's bad enough to taint the whole game, so be it. The creators only had to, you know, not put it in there. 🤷‍♀️

 

[apathetic]

Wild to me how some people can look at the image and say they don't see anything weird about it lol. Especially off the back of what a sexist mess XC2 was.

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Wild, but not unexpected. Looks like some of the people it's coming from are ones that use every opportunity to talk about how much better XC2 is than the first game/other games because of the characters in every thread where anyone talks negatively about the game.

Which is fine, I'm not going to judge tastes but of course they would have/give the most charitable and blind reads of anything related to the game.

Spoiler: Xenoblade 3

The way Rex is posed is the worst thing for me. That's not a gesture of tenderness, that's body language for "These are mine".

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I agree but also think the talking about it is getting bogged down with people thinking it would be any less hilarious/shitty if the characters were posed differently and it's not also the history and framing of those characters in the game they appeared in being complete standard wish fulfillment nonsense even without the harem end.

 

[xendless]

Brings me back to the creepy time travelling child army in Fire Emblem Awakening
Someone at Nintendo loves it

 

[Tendo]

I was so hoping xc3 would abandon the creepy shit in two. Foolish of me to think so. Sucks because I loved the first one so much but I just can't with this crap.

 

[Dice]

Y'all... Xenoblade 2 is literally a "what if your slave master was a nice person" plot. 🤦‍♀️ Wish fulfillment is right. And rather than gently let down some fans who liked Mythra or Nia more....Why disappoint everyone, and hook up with all of them! 🤪

Xenoblade 2 is cursed lol. Happy calling it my least favourite in the series. Hope the shenanigans in 3 (and its cast) don't go that stupid.

 

[Griffith]

Y'all... Xenoblade 2 is literally a "what if your slave master was a nice person" plot. 🤦‍♀️ Wish fulfillment is right. And rather than gently let down some fans who liked Mythra or Nia more....Why not all of them 🤪

Xenoblade 2 is cursed lol. Happy calling it my least favourite in the series. Hope the shenanigans in 3 (and its cast) don't go that stupid.

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Spoiler: Xenoblade 3 spoilers

Oh dear...

 

[Paragon]

Wild to me how some people can look at the image and say they don't see anything weird about it lol. Especially off the back of what a sexist mess XC2 was.

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I don't want to be too incendiary or toxic about it, but even as someone who is predominantly a lurker there's a clear defensive tone that appears every time XC2 comes up that makes me think that at this point people have already committed to defending XC2/the Xeno series to the point that it wouldn't matter how bad the content is, they would defend it anyway.

I feel a little mean and/or toxic for pointing it out because I don't like to call out other people, but that's how I feel after reading a lot of XC2 discourse on this site.

 

[harry the spy]

I will forever be amused that in that other thread a poster (since banned bc alt account) was ganged up on bc he dared criticize xc2 and in particular called the ending of xc2 a harem ending, to which the XC defense force just relentless accused him on not paying attention or being disingenuous or dumb and that it was not a harem ending at all but in fact it was very tragic somehow that Rex ended up with his two sexbots (exaggerating slightly but whatever). And now we got this turd of a coda for xc3.
I'm more 'tolerant' of bullshit sexist stuff than I probably should be and don't understand how you can not see xc2 as frequently repulsive.

 

[apathetic]

I will forever be amused that in that other thread a poster (since banned bc alt account) was ganged up on bc he dared criticize xc2 and in particular called the ending of xc2 a harem ending, to which the XC defense force just relentless accused him on not paying attention or being disingenuous or dumb and that it was not a harem ending at all but in fact it was very tragic somehow that Rex ended up with his two sexbots (exaggerating slightly but whatever). And now we got this turd of a coda for xc3.
I'm more 'tolerant' of bullshit sexist stuff than I probably should be and don't understand how you can not see xc2 as frequently repulsive.

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That person went a little hard on it, but I was still agreeing with a lot what they said. Was a bit of a laugh watching people pad themselves on the back after they were banned but whatever.

 

[Jotakori]

I still can't get over that XB3 picture. Even just the framing of it all gives me fucking hives lol.

Spoiler

How Rex is like 'proudly' standing behind and above all of them, with his arms stretched out to encompass all three... it feels very ownership-y and like the three women are just there as his trophy breeders. God it makes me so fucking uncomfortable lmao.
Istg, if I wasn't familiar with XB's cast, I would have straight-up just assumed it was an ending from some eroge jflk;fs

 

[Atom]

The ending to Xenoblade 2 was absolutely an act of cowardice. I didn't think it possible to get more cowardly than that but alas.

I still can't get over that XB3 picture. Even just the framing of it all gives me fucking hives lol.

Spoiler

How Rex is like 'proudly' standing behind and above all of them, with his arms stretched out to encompass all three... it feels very ownership-y and like the three women are just there as his trophy breeders. God it makes me so fucking uncomfortable lmao.
Istg, if I wasn't familiar with XB's cast, I would have straight-up just assumed it was an ending from some eroge jflk;fs

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Yeah it legit looks like something out of the bad end of some fetish 18+ eroge (well it would if you removed everyone's clothes). Can't believe people are going to bat for it.

 

[harry the spy]

That person went a little hard on it, but I was still agreeing with a lot what they said. Was a bit of a laugh watching people pad themselves on the back after they were banned but whatever.

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They were a bit aggressive, yea, but no more (arguably much less) than the other poster that basically started by basically calling him a disingenuous dumbass who projected his creepy anti-anime biases onto the game. I don't even hate xc2 that much (I do hate the fact that I wasted time playing it but that's really more on me than the game) and I had to bail from that bullshit thread. And yes I agreed with the gist of their argument but you were *obviously* a troll if you agreed with any of it so … shrug.

 

[RROCKMAN]

The ending to Xenoblade 2 was absolutely an act of cowardice. I didn't think it possible to get more cowardly than that but alas.



Yeah it legit looks like something out of the bad end of some fetish 18+ eroge (well it would if you removed everyone's clothes). Can't believe people are going to bat for it.

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Actually reminds me a lot of the Bad end to DR 1 which was a satirical inversion of the situation here oddly enough. Thing is this was a joke, not something meant to actually happen in story

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

There's an issue right now with multiple things going on in this thread, and we're putting a stop to them right now:

1) Men, don't try to mansplain away issues with the picture from the XC3 ending spoiler. It's obviously a male wish fulfilment thing, trying to say it isn't is just silly.

2) In addition, nobody should be sniping at each other across threads. Consider this a reminder that such behavior is against the site's ToS and against the guidelines of this thread. https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...f-her-character.275780/page-120#post-60495652

Any posts meeting these criteria will be met with moderation.

 

[P-Tux7]

There's an issue right now with multiple things going on in this thread, and we're putting a stop to them right now:

1) Men, don't try to mansplain away issues with the picture from the XC3 ending spoiler. It's obviously a male wish fulfilment thing, trying to say it isn't is just silly.

2) In addition, nobody should be sniping at each other across threads. Consider this a reminder that such behavior is against the site's ToS and against the guidelines of this thread. https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...f-her-character.275780/page-120#post-60495652

Any posts meeting these criteria will be met with moderation.

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Could someone please spoiler to me what the FUCK the team behind "blushy crushy just for Master Rex sir" did this time?

 

[apathetic]

Could someone please spoiler to me what the FUCK the team behind "blushy crushy just for Master Rex sir" did this time?

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Spoiler

 

[xendless]

Reactionary youtube creators are gonna have a field day starting harassment campaigns against anyone with criticism
They still get hot enough content just going after anyone who criticises Pyra and Mythra's designs with an angry SJW for an thumbnail

 

[spman2099]

I love the "it's a 3 second clip" defense. So fucking what. The groping scene in Trails of Cold Steel 3 only lasts a few seconds too, but if it's bad enough to taint the whole game, so be it. The creators only had to, you know, not put it in there. 🤷‍♀️

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I think it operates like the ten-second rule. As long as you can click through it in under ten seconds then it isn't sexist.

Spoiler: Xenoblade 3

The way Rex is posed is the worst thing for me. That's not a gesture of tenderness, that's body language for "These are mine".

It's really creepy that he's not looking at or touching any of them.

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I agree. One hundred percent. The pose is, by far, the worst part of it all. And there are a lot of things wrong with the picture in general.

Spoiler

You are on the money. It totally feels like Rex is saying "I own these people. They are mine." Very disturbing vibes.

 

[steejee]

As someone who was legit excited about XC3 (though I'd prefer an XCX2) and thought that just MAYBE things were moving in the right direction with the far better main character art, that spoiler....why did I click it. WHYYYYY. I sidelined Rex as much as I could in XC2 as it was and the extra ending managed to completely kill all the emotional impact of the rest of the ending.

To see that image, regardless of how long it is actually in XC3...just f'ckin hell.

 

[P-Tux7]

Spoiler: Xenoblade 3

HOW DO SWORDS HAVE BABIES

 

[Wanderer5]

I have little context when it comes to XB 2, but

Spoiler: Xenoblade 3 pic

The framing of that shot does look bleh with Rex over them like that. Also did the three give birth at around the same time? Yeesh.

 

[BossAttack]

Look on the bight side, Rex isn't wearing his dorky ass outfit. 😂

But seriously, I can't get that cursed spoiler image out of my head. How does that go through multiple rounds of approval?

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Look on the bight side, Rex isn't wearing his dorky ass outfit. 😂

But seriously, I can't get that cursed spoiler image out of my head. How does that go through multiple rounds of approval?

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At the end of the day, Takahashi is just that weird and nobody is willing to tell him "no".

 

[Isilia]

Cursed spoilers

Spoiler

The worst part is the writer probably has a convoluted reason as to why the children are the same age, why he is the father, etc.

And it is all stupid of course

 

[Necromanti]

So...I'm guessing the babies will grow up while 2 of the "moms" stay the same age forever...? (I haven't played any of the games, but they don't seem to have aged.)

 

[Roliq]

Brings me back to the creepy time travelling child army in Fire Emblem Awakening
Someone at Nintendo loves it

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I find it odd how you use that example when its a common trope of time travel and from what i seen no one really has issues with it rather than the fuck-up that was the next game, Fire Emblem Fates, since they wanted to keep the same child mechanic without the time-travel plot device and that just made it even worse

 

[PlanetSmasher]

I find it odd how you use that example when its a comment trope of time travel and no one particuly care rather than the fuck up that was the next game, Fire Emblem Fates, since they wanted to keep the same child mechanic without the time travel plot device and that just made it even worse

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I call Fire Emblem Fates' solution The Hyperbolic Baby Chamber. Absolutely bonkers shit.

 

[EntelechyFuff]

I just gotta say, this XC3 thing has really got my goat. Like, I am just so over this shit.

I'm over Xenoblade, specifically. I'm over people defending sexist anime garbage. And I'm over people trying these mealy-mouthed defenses via fake concern about ethnic generalizations.

I have been playing JRPGs for a long time. Once upon a time, this kind of shit only existed as a niche part of the genre. Now here it is, front and center in Nintendo's premier AAA JRPG series. And if you deign to pick up almost any modern JRPG, you will find some shade of this in there as well.

The whole genre is poisoned, and it's a huge fucking bummer. Seeing Xeno- become ur-example of this is an absolute mountain of salt in the wound: this was a series that once was once some of the headiest, most thought provoking videogame content out there. From what I've read, XC2 still has this...and I expect XC3 does to, but fuck if I'd ever actually bother to play it now.

There are problematic elements of many games and many genres going way back. JRPGs specifically feel like they started regressing around the PS3 era and just never recovered.

 

[Chumunga64]

Taking a peek at how people in other threads are defending it is really fucking wild.

Spoiler: Xenoblade 3

"It's like 3 seconds!" I mean yeah, it can be an infinitely small part of the game and still warrant criticism.
"We don't have context!" The picture alone speaks volumes with how it frames the characters in it.
"You're anti-polyamory/polygamy!" Once again, framing matters. You can present a polyamorous relationship without being so fucking creepy about it.
"There's nothing wrong with it!" My brother in Christ, if you don't see something off-putting about the male lead of the previous game standing dominantly over his three love interests as they sit demurely with their color-coded babies while everyone else in the picture displays more personality then like, I cannot help you.

Edit: "Their in-game characterization contradicts your reading, so it's wrong!" Their body language in this picture and the power dynamic it conveys can be creepy even if their established characterization goes against that... If anything that makes it worse. Why does this need to be explained

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actively crying at the "Mythra and Pyra are the eager ones while Rex is submissive so it's fine" defense on some parts of twitter

even funnier getting accused of being a nintendo fan who thinks all anime is gross on a different website when my pfp is me as a black clover character

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

I just gotta say, this XC3 thing has really got my goat. Like, I am just so over this shit.

I'm over Xenoblade, specifically. I'm over people defending sexist anime garbage. And I'm over people trying these mealy-mouthed defenses via fake concern about ethnic generalizations.

I have been playing JRPGs for a long time. Once upon a time, this kind of shit only existed as a niche part of the genre. Now here it is, front and center in Nintendo's premier AAA JRPG series. And if you deign to pick up almost any modern JRPG, you will find some shade of this in there as well.

The whole genre is poisoned, and it's a huge fucking bummer. Seeing Xeno- become ur-example of this is an absolute mountain of salt in the wound: this was a series that once was once some of the headiest, most thought provoking videogame content out there. From what I've read, XC2 still has this...and I expect XC3 does to, but fuck if I'd ever actually bother to play it now.

There are problematic elements of many games and many genres going way back. JRPGs specifically feel like they started regressing around the PS3 era and just never recovered.

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Preach. It fucking sucks.

 

[spman2099]

I just gotta say, this XC3 thing has really got my goat. Like, I am just so over this shit.

I'm over Xenoblade, specifically. I'm over people defending sexist anime garbage. And I'm over people trying these mealy-mouthed defenses via fake concern about ethnic generalizations.

I have been playing JRPGs for a long time. Once upon a time, this kind of shit only existed as a niche part of the genre. Now here it is, front and center in Nintendo's premier AAA JRPG series. And if you deign to pick up almost any modern JRPG, you will find some shade of this in there as well.

The whole genre is poisoned, and it's a huge fucking bummer. Seeing Xeno- become ur-example of this is an absolute mountain of salt in the wound: this was a series that once was once some of the headiest, most thought provoking videogame content out there. From what I've read, XC2 still has this...and I expect XC3 does to, but fuck if I'd ever actually bother to play it now.

There are problematic elements of many games and many genres going way back. JRPGs specifically feel like they started regressing around the PS3 era and just never recovered.

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This is exactly how I feel. It is getting to the point where the genre I used to favor the most is the one genre of games I don't play anymore. What a bizarre turn of events. I just wish they would get their shit together and get a handle on the creepy perv shit that is ruining the genre.

 

[Kaivan]

Great post and I fully agree.

Though people will always find a way to "prove" that JRPGs are always creepy since forever by showing some revealing outfits in old JRPGs and missing the point entirely. Like a clockwork.

 

[Scrappy-Fan92]

Is it fair game to openly discuss the nature of what happened to the Xenoblade characters in text-only posts now? I'm not even being facetious, I just want to know if everyone in the thread is cool with that.

I think we've all gone over the history of role-playing games and their evolution/devolution in terms of gender dynamics, sexuality, sexualization, cinematography, etc. -- They've always had issues, FFVII's a game that's existed for over 25 years now to make one example. The problem here is that there just hasn't been enough movement forward since the "halcyon" days of the SNES and PS1. Someone commented that there may be a matter of diminishing returns from veteran creators. They may very well be right; having to remix the same genre conventions for decades on end sounds like the same type of rut that superhero comics fell into. This is why it's important to have new blood from the creative and the consumer side, just to get some newer and hopefully better ideas flowing.

 

[xendless]

I find it odd how you use that example when its a common trope of time travel and from what i seen no one really has issues with it rather than the fuck-up that was the next game, Fire Emblem Fates, since they wanted to keep the same child mechanic without the time-travel plot device and that just made it even worse

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I never played Fates because I hated the character designs, also that they split the game in half, so I didn't know it got worse
The time travel trope in Awakening isn't the issue if it's just like Lucina or something
When it becomes a weird mass breeding project of every character being paired, it's fucking weird
I definitely saw plenty of discussions at the time on it before Fates ever released or was announced, specifically on the idea requiring every character to be straight and want children

 

[P-Tux7]

You know what? Fire Emblem Awakening and Fire Emblem Fates didn't "require" straight-presenting pairings for the children mechanic to work. These games have magic. It's not like they show the actual sploodging and birth on-screen, so just hand-wave away a gay couple's kid coming from the future as either "oh, we must have did X spell/ritual in the future" or "we'll be able to have kids in the future?!?" Sorry to be so angry, but I can't believe that they thought so deeply about how there's grown-up children in Fates and not how gay people could have had them.
(Note: part of the fun of pairing up characters is that their kids share characteristics from both parents, so that rules out surrogacy, despite me respecting it IRL. Though y'know, we don't have magic IRL.)