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Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."
- Thread starter Persephone
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That Noctis outfit is also modded, right? Would have loved some more casual-style stuff in the game.
modders rly out here doing the lord's work
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nope it's vanilla. I guess they added a bunch of stuff in the Windows edition?
Huh, that might be it. Don't even remember what kind of edition I played tbh. Anyhow, that outfit for Cindy is great!
Comrades? It was good. It's all unlockables so all the clothing besides the character reference outfits were gender agnostic. So the female avatars got the same clothing options as the male avatars: pants, boots, etc.
Of course, that went about as well as you'd expect with an online community. It feels like the only discourse the game ever got amounted to "where are the sexy outfits?!"
That's good to hear. I either forgot that game existed until reminded about it recently, or never learned about it back in the day in the first place. I'd been thinking about whether it would be a good way to kill some time or not, but I'm sure the server populations are dead by now.
Naturally.
Yeah, I believe the game only has 1 server left and it's basically empty except when people on discords form parties.
My jaded assumption is that Square has likely learned the wrong lessons from Comrades.
GF is playing the new Somnium Files game and the dominatrix/Nazi uniform AI's character model is so extremely off-putting.
Anything remotely interesting I see about these games gets nullified by the otaku pandering and the writer's own (poor) sensibilities.
Anything remotely interesting I see about these games gets nullified by the otaku pandering and the writer's own (poor) sensibilities.
Woo boy, I watched a LP of the first game and yeah, they added a dress-up option for Aiba too which I'm like but why.
Somnium Files is a very mixed bag. It has an amazing story and cast but it's also just the horniest and this is something the sequel doesn't change. But then both games also for example have scenes where one of the main protagonists talks about supporting queer communities and how conservatives are assholes. There are progressive ideas in there but the otaku pandering is.......very that.
From what I've seen, the "LGBT rights" gestures are undercut by the problematic elements around the queer characters in the games. Just from watching I have issues with the character of Mama, and reading up on the other two/three queer characters there are issues there too. One of the queer men is canonically dead not too far into the first game. (big spoilers for the first game)
I know absolutely nothing about the somnium files, but I see its made by spike chunsoft, and I HAVE played all the Danganronpas. As much as I enjoyed doing the trials in those games they are genuinely some of the most aggressively sexist media I've ever consumed. Maybe AI Somnium files does better but I would assume they're going to be pretty bad from past experience.
Yeah, Somnium Files is pretty bad. The protagonist of the first game, Date, is an insufferable pervert. Then there's this "gem" of a conversation very early in the game.
A+ writing
I think you've shared this before, it seems familiar. "I can make it sexual". I probably just forgot about it and the game it was tied to.
Yeah, I shared it before. I noped out of the game so fast after reaching that conversation. It was the breaking point as there was shit even before that which was pretty bad.
Its a special kind of disapointment when you're already being heavily put off by how much of a pervy creep the protagonist is, when a woman in the game comes along and actively encourages and participates in his behavior.
Yeah, it's kind of a pitiful state of affairs in Somnium Files, and I feel like Nirvana Initiative makes it worse. Like in Nirvana Initiative, Mama's writing is improved from the first game but she's basically only in the game as a plot element and the fact that the game makes jokes about her (crystal) balls just feels pretty distasteful. Still, it's a better state of affairs than the first game which features Date being a transphobe and a whole bunch of other poor choices...
Then with Nirvana Initiative, they pretty much straight washed Pewter. There's apparently dialogue with Boss mentioning his past boyfriends (according to people on the subreddit) but it's easily missable and never really brought up. Even in the first game they casually mention Pewter being gay several times early in the game, while also making a "joke" about him wanting to see Boss's underwear...
At least this game turned down the pervertedness to some extent but the game is still horny as hell and has much of the same style humor as the first game, which was disappointing since they could have made it much better...
Yeah, it's from the creator of 999/Zero Escape, so I'm not surprised either. Apparently the creator of Danganronpa & the creator of 999/Zero Escape spun off from Spike Chunsoft and started their own studio. So it's not surprising that everything this studio/this duo does is pervy, sexist and filled with anime tropes. Which is a shame as, like you mentioned, there are good elements in those games. And both can craft interesting stories but they apparently can't help themselves from engaging in the worst of anime tropes (sexism, rigid gender roles, gay stereotypes, etc)
There was thread a few weeks where a poster was asking what games he should suggest to his mom, who was primarily interested in farming sims and Animal Crossing. And he specified nothing "too animey". Yet people were honest to goodness suggesting Zero Escape & Danganronpa for her. Because that's apparently how much people have internalized the sexism & pervertedness of both series. To the point where it no longer even registers.
For the love of God please tell me that the camera does that for male Byleth too. It won't excuse it but it would be a hilarious case of accidentally-equal laziness to rival the original Fire Emblem: Three Houses where Byleth is non-binary because they didn't want to record different dialogues to have characters refer to Byleth with he/she pronouns instead of they
From what I have seen, Mizuki is pretty cool. Just not enough to get me to suffer through everything else.
Yeah it does, the cutscenes are exactly the same for both, not that it makes the designs better
That's the impression I got from watching my GF play. Ryuki is the (sometimes goofy) straight man and Tama is the pervert.
Yes... And no. For starters, the pronoun stuff with Byleth are a side effect of localization since romance & germanic languages are more gendered than Japanese. So it's not really an example of laziness.
Likewise, the scenes are mimics of each other for both genders yet are unquestionably intentional. I went ahead and replayed the beginning sections for each to make sure. But to double check I looked into the character models of Three Houses and got rather disappointed. So to give a bit of a preamble: the character models in Three Houses (and I assume Three Hopes) are all based on the same core character model and have the height, width, chest size, etc all proportionally changed for each character.... Except the female characters who also have a bust size scale that's independent of the height. Which wouldn't be an issue except for two problems: 1.) Basically none of the characters notably change height over the timeskip with the obvious exceptions of Bernadetta, Ashe, Lys & Cyril. But, despite the cast mainly being 17-18 at first, almost every Academy student has a dramatic increase in bust size. Which wouldn't be an issue individually, but the entire cast getting bustier, but not taller or wider, fits in with a very typical misunderstanding of puberty. And 2) the bust size is independent of height yet no named character is given the average (aka generic unit) size. iirc, only post timeskip Edelgard and Bernadetta get close (I don't want to go down that inevitably dark road to double-check). That's actually why I just assumed the game had two base models for all the women until modders started trying to do silly things like make giants in the school hub. But these very intentional choices make it obvious that the characters were designed to fit certain fetish/anime tropes rather than being all inclusive. That's what why the Three Houses models can look a tad odd since the bust size is independent of the height. That's also why Byleth is notable as she has her bust size toggle maxed out despite being one of the shorter characters. Which I can't imagine was done for any reason other than to ensure her chest would be seen from 90% of camera angles.
Anyway, that lengthy preamble was to
emphasize that nothing is accidental. Even if the characters are going through the same scenes, the models were designed with a purpose and the prerendered/recorded cutscenes were designed intentionally. But here are the comparisons I grabbed:
Byleth introduced (yep it's a feet to head pan up) - also the screenshots are staggered in timing
Shaz initially defeated:
Byleth coming in for the kill:
Transformation time:
Shaz tries to keep fighting:
Bonus things I noticed while replaying:
Boob armor
And Byleth (in heels) managing to trip up Shaz during their fight. Because the most terrifying mercenary in the region clearly should be wearing some stylish heels to battle
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I have the unsettling feeling that Final Fantasy Comrades taught Square the wrong lesson and now they'll never allow a woman to wear pants again.
I'd say I'm joking but I can't actually name a Final Fantasy woman who's worn pants since Comrades.
But then nobody will be able to tell the difference between her and Alphinaud!
Technically Jessie in VII Remake, but yeah the state of things is pretty dire.
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Can we get Drusilla into the main cast. She is the Reaper mentor who is interesting, looks cool, and an older woman even.
Ah right, that would be new since Jessie's baggy shorts turn into capris for the remake. Though I wanna say her remake design was revealed with the initial game announcement in 2015. Either way, that's at least 1 pair of pants!
Kinda
Now that the dust has settled, I would honestly like to ask your opinion regarding
specifically Malenia, Blade of Miquella. As you surely know if you have played the game, she literally gets naked for her second phase. But do you think she is sexualized?
I cannot think of a single Final Fantasy main character that's a woman that wears pants/trousers of the top of my head. At least none of the playable cast, I don't think.
FFIX's Garnet is wearing...something. It's not a romper or a onesie or a jumpsuit, but it's not a skirt either.
EDIT: Unless you meant "main" as in "unquestioned sole lead." Then I don't have an answer.
EDIT: Unless you meant "main" as in "unquestioned sole lead." Then I don't have an answer.
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Low bar, but: Maria in II (outside of Origins), Refia in III, Porom in IV, Farus in V, Terra in VI, Freya in IX. Garnet in IX wears... a jumpsuit, technically full covering, but of course it egregiously hugs her ass.
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Terra doesn't wear pants in her sprite and it's really more like a short dress and leggings in the official art. She's like the one female party member in FFVI who doesn't wear pants in any design. Celes wears pants in her official art but definitely not in her sprite, and Relm wears pants in both designs.
From another game, Quistis from FFVIII has pants, albeit underneath her skirt.
It is weirdly specific how few playable female characters in FF wear pants...
...though of course FF doesn't really have playable female characters anymore, haha...
She isn't, at all. In fact she's a perfect example of how to do nudity right, there isn't a hint of sexualization to it too. She looks incredibly badass and graceful.
I mean you just have to look at fanart to see how some people took it, but for me personally I was more in awe and afraid than anything else. It really didn't feel like it had sexual connotations or was designed to titillate or objectify or anything. It sort of felt like Miyazaki's whole thing about decaying elegance or whatever it was -- the gaping dragon quote -- but for the first time really encapsulated by a humanoid character. Such a cool character and boss.
Honestly maybe this is just because of how I curate my feeds, but I've been pleasantly surprised as outside of the rare exception, all the fanart I've seen has been really tasteful. I'm sure there's, ahem, trashier stuff out there, but I bet there is for other characters who aren't even nude at all anyway soooo
- Tons of options in Final Fantasy Comrades
- Yunita & Aire from 4 Heroes of Light wear pants. Or perhaps those are supposed to be tights. Eh, I'm still counting it since they're dressed the same as the guys. Plus it's basically the same tunic/boot combo that Link from Zelda dons.
- Harley from FFIV: After Years
- The tactics sub-series have plenty of examples with Agrias from Tactics & Frimelda from A2 being standouts
Of course, these are all fairly old examples, which says a lot if this is how far back everyone has to dig to find any examples besides Jessie or Comrades.
Sexualized but as tastefully done as can be expected from a team of men. Basically like a Renaissance painting.
no, unless you consider all nakedness sexual, but then you would have to call hundreds of classic paintings sexual.
While it was probably done for budget reasons, I really liked how the female party members in Stranger of Paradise used the exact same gear as the male characters, pants and all. Except for their default outfits, one of which was a pretty good design and the other one really bad. It's just a shame that you can't control them in single player mode.
While she's only a guest party member, I think Aranea is worth a mention at least:
And she's even sensibly dressed for the cold climate in the Episode Prompto DLC by JRPG standards:
Unlike Cindy and Luna, I think she's fairly well liked by most people who played the game? She reminds me a bit of Beatrix actually.
I'm still sad they cancelled her DLC episode. The concept art for that looked great:
I love that mod! Cindy actually looks great here.
And she's even sensibly dressed for the cold climate in the Episode Prompto DLC by JRPG standards:
Unlike Cindy and Luna, I think she's fairly well liked by most people who played the game? She reminds me a bit of Beatrix actually.
I'm still sad they cancelled her DLC episode. The concept art for that looked great:
modders rly out here doing the lord's work
I love that mod! Cindy actually looks great here.
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Best part of the game, so OF COURSE her DLC got canceled. Extremely on brand for everything having to do with FFXV.While she's only a guest party member, I think Aranea is worth a mention at least:
And she's even sensibly dressed for the cold climate in the Episode Prompto DLC by JRPG standards:
Unlike Cindy and Luna, I think she's fairly well liked by most people who played the game? She reminds me a bit of Beatrix actually.
I'm still sad they cancelled her DLC episode. The concept art for that looked great:
I love that mod! Cindy actually looks great here.
Something that's been bothering me for a bit since Professor Sada got revealed for Pokemon Scarlet and Violet and it connects with my issue with how the community reacts whenever their is a woman in a game that isn't considered conventionally attractive or Hollywood attractive and a few other things.
Similar to what I saw when Sonia and Nessa got revealed last Gen, so many of the initial reactions I saw resolved around around "Oh man! I can't wait for the rule34/Fan art!!!" and I've seen time and again when a woman has been revealed for a game like with Overwatch, MK or Smash.
It always feels like the unsaid implication of this, especially how loud and angry have gotten about it, that if a video game is revealed and doesn't fit the standards for porn, that the character is inherently a failure, bad, not worth caring about and also that women character should only be care for how capable of being sexualized rather than being characters in their own right.
I just feels this in tons of areas of discussions in small ways like in discussions of fighters and making women's costumes less sexualized and more practical their always there "Well the more sexualized costumes should be unlockable/DLC" like the idea that a single women in a fighter who isn't sexualized at all is unimaginable; same with how we don't see many older playable women in fighters or larger women. Like the companies are afraid players will reject them if they aren't easy to make porn of.
Similar to what I saw when Sonia and Nessa got revealed last Gen, so many of the initial reactions I saw resolved around around "Oh man! I can't wait for the rule34/Fan art!!!" and I've seen time and again when a woman has been revealed for a game like with Overwatch, MK or Smash.
It always feels like the unsaid implication of this, especially how loud and angry have gotten about it, that if a video game is revealed and doesn't fit the standards for porn, that the character is inherently a failure, bad, not worth caring about and also that women character should only be care for how capable of being sexualized rather than being characters in their own right.
I just feels this in tons of areas of discussions in small ways like in discussions of fighters and making women's costumes less sexualized and more practical their always there "Well the more sexualized costumes should be unlockable/DLC" like the idea that a single women in a fighter who isn't sexualized at all is unimaginable; same with how we don't see many older playable women in fighters or larger women. Like the companies are afraid players will reject them if they aren't easy to make porn of.
Looking at indie dev stuff and think the designs revealed for 9 Years of Shadows are overall decent with one notable exception
portrait
in game
other characters
View: https://twitter.com/HALBERDSTUDIOS/status/1515321614589595648
animation
different armours for the main character
This one sticks out as the only female character I saw so far who isn't porcelain and she's giving 'tan skin tone = seductress' 🥴
View: https://twitter.com/HALBERDSTUDIOS/status/1544727877199052801
portrait
in game
other characters
View: https://twitter.com/HALBERDSTUDIOS/status/1515321614589595648
animation
different armours for the main character
This one sticks out as the only female character I saw so far who isn't porcelain and she's giving 'tan skin tone = seductress' 🥴
View: https://twitter.com/HALBERDSTUDIOS/status/1544727877199052801