Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."

Dice · Mar 8, 2021

Trucy Wright said:
yeah that part is really..... yuck, I think the worst thing about danganronpa's pandering with their female characters is less design wise and more of how their existence is made as a waifu bait, with every girl checking a feitsh box : devoted maid/bratty loli/ ditzy nurse ( who keeps falling down in suggestive poses ) :

...She might be the only character with a "happy" way to go. 😬 👍

I like Danganronpa for the most part. It's got some bad shit, but most similar games are worse and the worst of Dangan usually confines it to one character... I can...roll with that (and just sigh and roll my eyes when it happens). I've also heard even most FANS write off Ultra Despair Girls for being cringey garbage with bad gameplay. So yay. >_>

lol I think she has an orgasm[?!?] before being rocketed into space 🚀 😅

Morrigan · Mar 8, 2021

Zen said:
The old lady characters in VIIR are kinda badass and it's a shame we won't see more of them.

Yeah I really like the landlady and Elmyra. Weird how these women aren't comically emoting in infantilized manners huh... 🤔

carrot_ · Mar 8, 2021

Zen said:
It's showing in theaters depending on your location as well. It's expensive to watch on D+ but for people with a family it's cheaper than buying movie tickets. If you're alone though spending $30 on top of the D+ sub is painful. Most people seem to be waiting for it to go free on D+. I've seen it twice now over the opening weekend because I just like it that much. It has its issues but they're nowhere near the level of the Mulan remake.

Thanks for the info! But dang, I'm in Berlin, and I actually think all our theaters are still closed because of COVID. Then again, it would probably be hard to find in a theater not dubbed (only a small handful of theaters play movies in their original language). Maybe I will try to do what you said and see if at least the price ever drops. I could maybe get Disney+ for one month or something and use it to watch as much as I can during that month lol.

Conditional-Pancakes · Mar 8, 2021

AnimaRize said:
it can definitely work both ways but more often than not atleast for me it more highlighted when hatred towards it, now i know a lot of people in that thread stated they hated anime as in the sexualized kind i had pointed out multiple times that there are people that i had seen sometimes on era simply hate a game for being anime in things like this

or just having the cartoon look of anime to them. It's far easier to notice than the xenophobia that defends all things japan related

I get what you're trying to say. Not all anime and anime-style games are the same. I agree. But you must also agree that many disgusting tropes about women are deep-rooted within the genre. Is this stuff present in all of them? No... In A LOT of them? Yes. Enough to usually make me turn back when I see something as being "anime" in any way.

And please, please, please (please)... you need to realize it's not only a question of sexualization. We've already talked for a few pages about mannerism. It's also the infantilization, the way male character acts toward women, the way women act (and react), the situations girls/women are put into, the motivations of the female characters... I could go on for hours. It's the whole portrayal of women in relation to their male counterparts (on a micro and macro level), the obvious systematized sexism and misogyny. Try to pay attention to this kind of stuff, you might notice things you didn't before, even in things you thought were completely fine from your perspective.

Yes, a lot of these problems are also present in other form of media or genre. But the particularity of modern anime, anime-style games, etc. is that it's so visible, it's highlighted, it's accepted – and from the ways it's implemented into the medium and how a lot of people react when these problems are discussed – it's even celebrated. And all of that in media generally aimed at young men. Each time I see this, it's a huge slap in the face and a real reminder that even though women obtained equality de jure, they're still definitely not equal de facto. And it makes me want to drink myself to death.

I also refuse to equate all of that with Japan and its people. rras1994 put it very well in her post above. Japan HAS many feminist movements (naturally). Japanese women don't act like the characters in anime. Japanese animators and game developers aren't unaware of the concepts of gender equality and gender equity. They need to stop being considered as children who cannot do better. I feel hiding behind the concept of "xenophobia" to defend these behaviors is in this context hugely disingenuous at best, and very dangerous at worst.

Nimby · Mar 8, 2021

Dice said:
...She might be the only character with a "happy" way to go. 😬 👍

I like Danganronpa for the most part. It's got some bad shit, but most similar games are worse and the worst of Dangan usually confines it to one character... I can...roll with that (and just sigh and roll my eyes when it happens). I've also heard even most FANS write off Ultra Despair Girls for being cringey garbage with bad gameplay. So yay. >_>

lol I think she has an orgasm[?!?] before being rocketed into space 🚀 😅

God it's so painfully cringe and gross considering everyone is mostly high-school age. Danganronpa 1 is a lot more bearable even if it has Toko and whole garbage with Chihiro.

Zen · Mar 8, 2021

Morrigan said:
Yeah I really like the landlady and Elmyra. Weird how these women aren't comically emoting in infantilized manners huh... 🤔

Ha, is it bad if I kinda want to see that for the cringe?

xiaohuli said:
Thanks for the info! But dang, I'm in Berlin, and I actually think all our theaters are still closed because of COVID. Then again, it would probably be hard to find in a theater not dubbed (only a small handful of theaters play movies in their original language). Maybe I will try to do what you said and see if at least the price ever drops. I could maybe get Disney+ for one month or something and use it to watch as much as I can during that month lol.

That would def be the best bang for your buck, it's what I would do if I weren't on a shared account.

AnimaRize · Mar 8, 2021

Conditional-Pancakes said:
I get what you're trying to say. Not all anime and anime-style games are the same. I agree. But you must also agree that many disgusting tropes about women are deep-rooted within the genre. Is this stuff present in all of them? No... In A LOT of them? Yes. Enough to usually make me turn back when I see something as being "anime" in any way.

And please, please, please (please)... you need to realize it's not only a question of sexualization. We've already talked for a few pages about mannerism. It's also the infantilization, the way male character acts toward women, the way women act (and react), the situations girls/women are put into, the motivations of the female characters... I could go on for hours. It's the whole portrayal of women in relation to their male counterparts (on a micro and macro level), the obvious systematized sexism and misogyny. Try to pay attention to this kind of stuff, you might notice things you didn't before, even in things you thought were completely fine from your perspective.

Yes, a lot of these problems are also present in other form of media or genre. But the particularity of modern anime, anime-style games, etc. is that it's so visible, it's highlighted, it's accepted – and from the ways it's implemented into the medium and how a lot of people react when these problems are discussed – it's even celebrated. And all of that in media generally aimed at young men. Each time I see this, it's a huge slap in the face and a real reminder that even though women obtained equality de jure, they're still definitely not equal de facto. And it makes me want to drink myself to death.

I also refuse to equal all of that to Japan and its people. rras1994 put it very well in her post above. Japan HAS many feminist movements (naturally). Japanese women don't act like the characters in anime. Japanese animators and game developers aren't unaware of the concepts of gender equality and gender equity. They need to stop being considered as children who cannot do better. I feel hiding behind the concept of "xenophobia" to defend these behaviors is in this context hugely disingenuous at best, and very dangerous at worst.

as i stated in the following posts, that it isn't simply just the sexualization, It's the generalizations, the idea that the west is superior, things of that nature that the xenophobic posts that that criticize anime styles that are very much far noticeable. This very board was in fact called out for it. you can actually go back and see it and a lot of us learned that we were doing it without realizing it. yes you can criticize the writing of a game, or state you don't like the artstyle but it goes well and beyond, not only in posts i have seen but in posts i have accidently done myself and was rightfully called out for.

Choppasmith · Mar 8, 2021

Zen said:
I will stan this movie for having decent (if somewhat shallow, but it's Disney) SE Asian representation and its characters. Is it sad that we don't have more movies representing us? Yeah. But that's even more reason not to just brush this aside. It's a genuinely good movie and a step forward.

I'll probably wait until it's "free" on Disney+ but I'm definitely interested.

I've seen praise for it but I've seen a lot of hate and ire for it too. Like, people in Malaysia bagging on people who find it enjoyable or the voice cast who doesn't quite "match". As someone who's just plain old white I want to understand but it's some real glass half empty type stuff.

ClickyCal' · Mar 8, 2021

I saw some hoodie alt design thing for Pyra that makes her like 50% better lol. Why couldn't that just be it?

Zen · Mar 8, 2021

Choppasmith said:
I'll probably wait until it's "free" on Disney+ but I'm definitely interested.

I've seen praise for it but I've seen a lot of hate and ire for it too. Like, people in Malaysia bagging on people who find it enjoyable or the voice cast who doesn't quite "match". As someone who's just plain old white I want to understand but it's some real glass half empty type stuff.

I've thought about this quite a bit. It's one of the first movies to represent SEA in North America in a while, if not a very long time, from one of the biggest corporations in the world. It stands to reason everyone of SEA descent wanted it to get it right, but what that entails can be subjective. So it makes sense that it would receive a lot of critique just from that angle. Then there's the fact that Southeast Asia is a massive part of the Asian continent with many cultures and unique traditions, and there was no way this movie could hope to accurately represent them all. What we get isn't super deep and is a fantastical myth that kind of takes here and there from the different SEA cultures. I can place Heart as being somewhat Vietnamese-inspired but it becomes more ambiguous beyond that. The criticisms are valid. Still, I don't think that's reason enough to dismiss or discount the film for what it does achieve, which is not least halfway decent representation for Asians and SE Asians specifically. It's not perfect, and not as deep or accurate a portrayal as probably would have been fitting, but it was clearly made with heart and good intentions and the end result is, IMO, pretty great.

Rae · Mar 8, 2021

I used to like Danganrompa b/c I liked Hajime and Komaeda but in hindsight, it's a terrible series with terrible treatment of female characters. I've ended up giving up on the series and I stopped mentioning it on VN threads as an option.

So much of the games I did or currently like is full of problematic stuff and it's draining to write a warning before I introduce new ppl to the games. I think it feels a lot worst when it's a women-oriented genre like otome games where you date anime BF and there's so much MC suffering and violence for no reason.

Bloodarmz · Mar 8, 2021

Choppasmith said:
I'll probably wait until it's "free" on Disney+ but I'm definitely interested.

I've seen praise for it but I've seen a lot of hate and ire for it too. Like, people in Malaysia bagging on people who find it enjoyable or the voice cast who doesn't quite "match". As someone who's just plain old white I want to understand but it's some real glass half empty type stuff.

Same, I'm gonna wait til June when it comes out of premier access.

In addition to Zen's post above, IGN's review is by Nicole Clark, who is Taiwanese-American, and there are a few paragraphs about cultural identity. She gave it an 8/10.

. . . because Kumandra is a "fantasy" world drawing from a number of different countries in a larger region, it risks blurring cultural references to the point where they become unrecognizable or incoherent to the people who expected to identify with the movie . . . There is no single identity, as Southeast Asians aren't a monolith. And like Mulan, this film mostly reads as distinctly American, with jokes about things like working on group projects at school that feel a bit out of place in a world that is supposedly fantastical.

Nakenorm · Mar 8, 2021

Edit: fake account! Never mind!

crienne · Mar 8, 2021

Nakenorm said:
As if there was any doubt...

What the actual fuck

Choppasmith · Mar 8, 2021

Nakenorm said:
As if there was any doubt...

That's a fake account. Look at the two Is at the end.

I swear I hate this guy for this very reason. But I think because Sakurai isn't verified Twitter won't do anything

CBTech · Mar 8, 2021

Nakenorm said:
As if there was any doubt...

I think this is a parody account. The user name has two i's.

AnimaRize · Mar 8, 2021

CBTech said:
I think this is a parody account. The user name has two i's.

it is you can look at the other tweets and see it, even has a nazi bowser flag

Schnee · Mar 8, 2021

Yeah that's an extremely shitty "parody" account

CBTech · Mar 8, 2021

AnimaRize said:
it is you can look at the other tweets and see it, even has a nazi bowser flag

oh wow, yeah that whole account is gross.

Unrelated to the account but related to Pyra/Mythra in Smash. I've been looking at normal screenshots of Pyra and Mythra in some of the Smash threads and there is just no angle for these characters that look good in anyway. Then I remember that their original designs have a lot more bare skin and my brain just melts.

Choppasmith · Mar 8, 2021

Schnee said:
Yeah that's an extremely shitty "parody" account

I swear when the heat is on them, they'll change it to something like "Massive Hero Soccer Guy" and then just changes right back when things die down. Guy is just total tool who thinks like a 13 year old who thinks fart jokes are funny.

Anyways, enough about that guy, but sheesh that guy just really annoys me.

Nakenorm · Mar 8, 2021

Choppasmith said:
That's a fake account. Look at the two Is at the end.

I swear I hate this guy for this very reason. But I think because Sakurai isn't verified Twitter won't do anything

CBTech said:
I think this is a parody account. The user name has two i's.

Oh shit, it totally fooled me! I'll edit my post immediately.

Princess Bubblegum · Mar 8, 2021

Foot said:
It is heavily skewed that way though. The game absolutely assumes the player is a straight male, and spends most of its run-time trying to make that assumed player fall in love with Jessie, Tifa and Aerith. They want players to care about them, but the main way they know how is to make them sexually desirable.

I don't disagree that the game is heavily rooted in the perspective of men and reflects that. I brought up Hollywood blockbusters for a reason. Look at the MCU, it's pretty skewed towards the interests of straight white men but it appeals to and targets a general audience.

I'm not sure the greater point I'm fully trying to make here, but I don't like the notion that VII Remake is almost exclusively targeted towards men. I'm a woman that played and enjoyed it a lot, and I know other women and non-men did too.

Choppasmith · Mar 8, 2021

SapphiCine said:
Look at the MCU, it's pretty skewed towards the interests of straight white men but it appeals to and targets a general audience.

Speaking of, I can't find it now, but I saw a "how it started, how it's going" Twitter post about Wanda's outfit way back in Age of Ultron referencing an old interview Olsen pointed out then how she thought the focus on cleavage was uncomfortable BS and now we have Wandavision finale outfit.

Conditional-Pancakes · Mar 8, 2021

SapphiCine said:
I don't disagree that the game is heavily rooted in the perspective of men and reflects that. I brought up Hollywood blockbusters for a reason. Look at the MCU, it's pretty skewed towards the interests of straight white men but it appeals to and targets a general audience.

I'm not sure the greater point I'm fully trying to make here, but I don't like the notion that VII Remake is almost exclusively targeted towards men. I'm a woman that played and enjoyed it a lot, and I know other women and non-men did too.

My comments in the last few pages are exclusively targeting creator intents and their effects. And these intents were to make a product they imagined young men would buy. But you know, people aren't simple being waiting quietly to get shoved into boxes according to companies' whims. Of course some women are enjoying VII Remake, independently of the intentions of the creators. You can enjoy the hell out of whatever you want! Including the MCU, which are other products generally made with men in mind. While I do believe in individual responsibilities streaming from the entertainment we consume, we still are way more than just the products we buy.

So yeah, feel free to enjoy whatever you want! Just accept to sometimes talk about it with people like me in threads like these :p

I definitely still think you're a wonderful person and one of my Era crushes, don't worry. lol! :p ❤

rras1994 · Mar 8, 2021

This twitter thread on the history of women in gaming and ( quelle surprise! ) we have always been there I thought would be quite useful to this thread:

Conditional-Pancakes · Mar 8, 2021

rras1994 said:
This twitter thread on the history of women in gaming and ( quelle surprise! ) we have always been there I thought would be quite useful to this thread:

This is a wonderful thread!

Princess Bubblegum · Mar 8, 2021

Conditional-Pancakes said:
My comments in the last few pages are exclusively targeting creator intents and their effects. And these intents were to make a product they imagined young men would buy. But you know, people aren't simple being waiting quietly to get shoved into boxes according to companies' whims. Of course some women are enjoying VII Remake, independently of the intentions of the creators. You can enjoy the hell out of whatever you want! Including the MCU, which are other products generally made with men in mind. While I do believe in individual responsibilities streaming from the entertainment we consume, we still are way more than just the products we buy.

So yeah, feel free to enjoy whatever you want! Just accept to sometimes be asked to talk about it by people like me in threads like these :p

I know that and I get where you are coming from, but I disagree with some of the things you said. I'm fine with criticism regarding the content of the game, I definitely don't love it unconditionally. (Tifa's design is still really bothersome and thirsty Jesse ain't great, among other things.) Even from a game design perspective I can't 100% disagree with Morri on some aspects of it.

Conditional-Pancakes said:
The target audience for FF7 Remake is undoubtedly male teenager / male young adults. That's where their focus obviously is. If before release a magic crystal ball was to inform Square Enix that this game wouldn't sell a single copy in any of the women's demographics, I'm convinced that except for maybe a bit of PR they wouldn't bat an eyelid. Odds are that it wouldn't really put a significant dent in their revenue anyway.

This paragraph is largely what I took issue/disagree with. We'll never know an exact breakdown but I think it's silly to think that a good portion of VII Remake's sales aren't attributable to women. (Though I can understand why you feel that SE and the team didn't consider women when making it.) Final Fantasy VII's nostalgia isn't limited to men. Final Fantasy isn't an otaku series, it's an internationally recognizable franchise that appeals to a lot of people. That doesn't mean it (VIIR and the series in general) isn't free of elements that aggressively appeal to men and otaku, aside from the bog standard sexism we get in a lot of media. I'd argue VIIR has elements specifically designed to appeal to women like Cloud, Sephiroth, Reno, etc being super bishounen, and even the Cloud x Aerith x Tifa love triangle is going to appeal to women. Tifa and Aerith themselves appeal to some women, myself included (well, really just Aerith).

I think what's ruffling my feathers is your language is straddling the line between commenting on creator/marketing intent and the actual audience of the game. Maybe I'm just being defensive since VII Remake was comfort food for me when the reality of the pandemic was setting in last year. T_T

Conditional-Pancakes said:
I definitely still think you're a wonderful person and one of my Era crushes, don't worry. lol! :p

Conditional-Pancakes · Mar 8, 2021

Sorry SapphiCine if my language can sometimes be involuntarily too confrontational. Like I said earlier, I guess I have way less tolerance for this kind of stuff than most. It may have to do with the fact that I'm an old passionate feminist with somewhat of an activist past :p

Some of the stuff related to women's representation in these things is so regressive to my eyes, and it sometimes has a tendency to trigger my confrontational bone. It's a bit why I often need to take long pauses from even opening this thread, lol!

Anyway, we're on a video game enthusiasts forum, and of course many women here will love these games/anime/whatever. I want to reiterate that I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. You'll just have to deal we me being triggered once in a while. I very much love to talk about this and exchange ideas, even if my tone might be confrontational sometimes...

Saucycarpdog · Mar 8, 2021

Btw Morrigan, just saw your thread on FF7R. I wholeheartedly agree with you opinion on the women in the game. Thank you for putting that out there.

Princess Bubblegum · Mar 8, 2021

Conditional-Pancakes said:
Sorry SapphiCine if my language can sometimes be involuntarily too confrontational. Like I said earlier, I guess I have way less tolerance for this kind of stuff than most. It may have to do with the fact that I'm an old passionate feminist with somewhat of an activist past :p

Some of the stuff related to women's representation in these things is so regressive to my eyes, and it sometimes has a tendency to trigger my confrontational bone. It's a bit why I often need to take long pauses from even opening this thread, lol!

Anyway, we're on a video game enthusiasts forum, and of course many women here will love these games/anime/whatever. I want to reiterate that I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. You'll just have to deal we me being triggered once in a while. I very much love to talk about this and exchange ideas, even if my tone might be confrontational sometimes...

*virtual hug* All said and done your posts are fine, I just disagreed with some of the finer details and got a little defensive. I 100% get having next to no tolerance, I used to be way less tolerant a decade ago when I was a wide-eyed, passionate feminist. I was extremely confrontational (to the point of being a total asshole, if I'm being 100% honest) when dealing with anime fans in particular. 😅 I admire people that still have the passion. You're just seeing broken and worn down me, who has come to compromise a lot so I can actually enjoy things. 😂

Morrigan · Mar 8, 2021

SapphiCine said:
I don't disagree that the game is heavily rooted in the perspective of men and reflects that. I brought up Hollywood blockbusters for a reason. Look at the MCU, it's pretty skewed towards the interests of straight white men but it appeals to and targets a general audience.

I'm not sure the greater point I'm fully trying to make here, but I don't like the notion that VII Remake is almost exclusively targeted towards men. I'm a woman that played and enjoyed it a lot, and I know other women and non-men did too.

SapphiCine said:
I'd argue VIIR has elements specifically designed to appeal to women like Cloud, Sephiroth, Reno, etc being super bishounen, and even the Cloud x Aerith x Tifa love triangle is going to appeal to women. Tifa and Aerith themselves appeal to some women, myself included (well, really just Aerith).

I think what's ruffling my feathers is your language is straddling the line between commenting on creator/marketing intent and the actual audience of the game. Maybe I'm just being defensive since VII Remake was comfort food for me when the reality of the pandemic was setting in last year. T_T

I actually agree with you there re: the audience. FF7, and Final Fantasy in general, has always had a pretty solid and sizeable female fanbase, and I do think the games in general make some effort to appeal to girls and women.

But like, they don't actually objectify or infantilize the male characters to do that, so, funny that. xD

Hidden content

Saucycarpdog said:
Btw Morrigan, just saw your thread on FF7R. I wholeheartedly agree with you opinion on the women in the game. Thank you for putting that out there.

👍

Hella · Mar 8, 2021

Lycanthrope -R- said:
I dunno why it showed up in my YT suggestions, but this is pretty cool. Gives critique about aesthetics vs. practicality and what it means for the types of weapons you'd be using. Along with some mock ups and demonstrations.

Just stop beating around the bush and draw hentai. Why even pretend? lol

Wonderful vid, thanks for sharing it.

The segment on range of motion is incredible, and illustrated really well.

Princess Bubblegum · Mar 8, 2021

Morrigan said:
I actually agree with you there re: the audience. FF7, and Final Fantasy in general, has always had a pretty solid and sizeable female fanbase, and I do think the games in general make some effort to appeal to girls and women.

But like, they don't actually objectify or infantilize the male characters to do that, so, funny that. xD

[Hidden content]

Even though she wasn't great, I would take another Lightning-esque woman protagonist in a heartbeat. (The sequels don't count.)

Hidden content

Morrigan · Mar 8, 2021

SapphiCine said:
[Hidden content]

I am so, so guilty

RecLib · Mar 8, 2021

Apparently I need to get playing this game if I want to get in on all the ff7r discourse.

ClickyCal' · Mar 8, 2021

Unfortunately I don't have much to say with FF7 because the game just isn't for me when I tried the demo, in terms of gameplay. So all I can go off is clips and gifs I have seen of problematic stuff.

Princess Bubblegum · Mar 8, 2021

RecLib said:
Apparently I need to get playing this game if I want to get in on all the ff7r discourse.

Take your time, we aren't discussing any heavy spoilers for the game. Definitely stay out of Morri's LTTP thread, people being careless there.

yuoke said:
Unfortunately I don't have much to say with FF7 because the game just isn't for me when I tried the demo, in terms of gameplay. So all I can go off is clips and gifs I have seen of problematic stuff.

Honestly, I had very low expectations when I bought VII Remake (it was a whim) and I liked it a lot better than I thought I would. The combat especially.

Dice · Mar 8, 2021

yuoke said:
Unfortunately I don't have much to say with FF7 because the game just isn't for me when I tried the demo, in terms of gameplay. So all I can go off is clips and gifs I have seen of problematic stuff.

Surprisingly not the "dress Cloud up like a lady" segment.... a rare case that's mostly pretty darn open to things (even, although to a lesser extent, in the PS1 game too). 😅 🤣

cf5edea19c4fc1f8490c562a5eaabd8a0f9d173c.gifv

Morrigan · Mar 8, 2021

yuoke said:
Unfortunately I don't have much to say with FF7 because the game just isn't for me when I tried the demo, in terms of gameplay. So all I can go off is clips and gifs I have seen of problematic stuff.

I can say that for me, personally, it's not THAT bad as to be a dealbreaker, and I don't even like the gameplay much lol. If it were Kojima levels of misogyny I'd have deleted that game faster than you can blink because there'd be no way I could stomach that and poor gameplay haha.

I stand by my criticisms, but it's not, like, "what the fuck is this misogynistic garbage dumpster fire, fuck this game" level at all or anything. It's disappointing and sometimes grating, but mostly worthy of an eye-roll for the most part. You'll notice my thread also doesn't focus entirely on that, because it's not really my biggest complaint about the game either.

ClickyCal' · Mar 8, 2021

SapphiCine said:
Honestly, I had very low expectations when I bought VII Remake (it was a whim) and I liked it a lot better than I thought I would. The combat especially.

I've been thinking of giving it another chance with the ps5 version coming just because I think the game looks great and the music. Idk, maybe I can get used to the actual combay. I want to have a fair opinion about the character and story stuff.

Dice said:
Surprisingly not the "dress Cloud up like a lady" segment.... a rare case that's mostly pretty darn open to things. 😅 🤣

Yea...I've seen that, and of course the Aerith gif lol.

Morrigan said:
I can say that for me, personally, it's not THAT bad as to be a dealbreaker, and I don't even like the gameplay much lol. If it were Kojima levels of misogyny I'd have deleted that game faster than you can blink because there'd be no way I could stomach that and poor gameplay haha.

I stand by my criticisms, but it's not, like, "what the fuck is this misogynistic garbage dumpster fire, fuck this game" level at all or anything. It's disappointing and sometimes grating, but mostly worthy of an eye-roll for the most part.

Yea I feel like I could tolerate it enough if I was also able to get through both Bayonettas at least. I'll have to just try to find out.

RecLib · Mar 8, 2021

If the game continues to build in terms of depth and complexity from the starting point then I think I'll probably be really into the combat. The minor things you are doing in that first section felt very satisfying to me. Like the little things of "hit the weak enemies while avoiding the shield enemies until you build the ap, than cast fire on the shield boys", and "these enemies you're better off to switch to punisher mode and do counter attacks".
If the game keeps layering things on from here I think I'll be very satisfied from the gameplay point of view at least. Of course maybe less so if I've already seen all there is to offer.

Though I will say its already more mechanically interesting than the entirety of Yakuza Like a Dragon so its got that going for it.

Princess Bubblegum · Mar 8, 2021

RecLib said:
If the game continues to build in terms of depth and complexity from the starting point then I think I'll probably be really into the combat. The minor things you are doing in that first section felt very satisfying to me. Like the little things of "hit the weak enemies while avoiding the shield enemies until you build the ap, than cast fire on the shield boys", and "these enemies you're better off to switch to punisher mode and do counter attacks".
If the game keeps layering things on from here I think I'll be very satisfied from the gameplay point of view at least. Of course maybe less so if I've already seen all there is to offer.

Though I will say its already more mechanically interesting than the entirety of Yakuza Like a Dragon so its got that going for it.

I found the combat to be too overwhelming at first but I loved it once it clicked. The biggest issue, unfortunately, is the ally AI which really sticks out during more intense boss battles. They need a gambit system or something for the next game.

RecLib · Mar 8, 2021

SapphiCine said:
I found the combat to be too overwhelming at first but I loved it once it clicked. The biggest issue, unfortunately, is the ally AI which really sticks out during more intense boss battles. They need a gambit system or something for the next game.

Too overwhelming is better than the opposite I think, hopefully I'll like it. It is a shame to hear about the AI. Any realtime or close enough to real time game like this really benefits from some good party ai settings.

ShyMel · Mar 8, 2021

GrandeRampel said:
There's so much good in this franchise, so many clever murder mysteries, interesting themes and characters to discuss. Why does it have to be ruined like this. There are so many recurring jokes that weren't funny even the first time, so many problematic takes, so many one-note characters that survive while morally complex and unique characters bite the dust. The worst part is that it could all have been avoided so easily.

To write all this I had to take a second look at some things that I only vaguely remember. In the meanwhile you all discussed and posted stuff I willingly decided to forget. >.<
Man is the game worse than I thought. Is that a f*cking pidegon toes in the first Mahiru image I posted? IT IS! OMG, THEY REALLY ARE EVERYWHERE! WHY!!!??? And I only talked about a single character I could spend days talking how Danganronpa mistreats almost every single female character either because of fanservice, or because of some problematic writing/making them less important than the male cast.

Yes, it is sad that so many of the female characters in the series are mistreated and/or play second fiddle so a male character can shine.

Timu · Mar 8, 2021

...Yeah I'm not sure when I'll try Danganronpa.

deliquate · Mar 9, 2021

A lot of times, for me, it's not just that a game has problematic elements. It's that I want to say something about the problematic elements, get it off my chest, and I always get the same litany of responses--"other games are worse" is one of my least favorite. So what if other games are worse? Why would that make me think more favorably of *this* bad thing about *this* game?

Plus, like, if that other game is worse... maybe that's why I'm not playing it? Maybe I've hit my limit? And I will overlook a *lot*. I understand that dudes don't want me to yuck their yum, I get it. Self-indulgent fantasy can be really fun. But call it what it is and don't make excuses.

GrandeRampel · Mar 9, 2021

ShyMel said:
Yes, it is sad that so many of the female characters in the series are mistreated and/or play second fiddle so a male character can shine.

In my opinion the games got worse and worse after each entry in how they characterized female characters. In the first game, despite characters like Toko being treated badly you could still argue that many female characters like Asahina, Sakura, Kyoko and so on had agency and were as important as the male ones (except the male protagonist).
The second game made it so almost all the female characters existed for the sake of male characters (Chiaki being the worst example in a meta-way).

The third game could be argued to be on pretty much the same level as the second, but the stupid plot twist of chapter 1 is so dumb and unnecessary that the rest of the game suffers from it and never recovers, making it the worst one.

Then there is Ultra Despair Girls which doesn't suffer from this problem, having two female protagonists. Too bad that everything else in that game is the problem. Even ignoring the gameplay and the problematic shit, the game is just confusing. The other games beat you over the head with the lesson, but at least you understand what the lesson is. With UDG, not so much. It's vague.
Other than "Friendship = Good; Revenge = Bad" I'm not sure what "lesson" the game was trying to teach. What's the takeaway from that mess of a plot? IDK.

RecLib · Mar 9, 2021

Danganronpa's writing for the women peaked chapter 1 with everything Sayaka did. The game setting her up as this generic positive anime girl sidekick, like she's going to be this game's Maya Fey knockoff or whatever, only for her to turn around and intentionally manipulate Makoto so that she can frame him for the first killing. That was genuinely good stuff. The ongoing realization as you play through that first trial of the fact that Sayaka was the aggressor, and everything else, was the highlight of that game even with how obvious the first culprit was.

It was all down hill after that for 17 more chapters across 3 games.

Characters like Kyoko are ultimately complete failures because you can't write someone to be a hyper intelligent ace investigator but also need to have them constantly saved by idiot Makoto in almost every trial.

Roliq · Mar 9, 2021

GrandeRampel said:
Then there is Ultra Despair Girls which doesn't suffer from this problem, having two female protagonists. Too bad that everything else in that game is the problem. Even ignoring the gameplay and the problematic shit, the game is just confusing. The other games beat you over the head with the lesson, but at least you understand what the lesson is. With UDG, not so much. It's vague.
Other than "Friendship = Good; Revenge = Bad" I'm not sure what "lesson" the game was trying to teach. What's the takeaway from that mess of a plot? IDK.

The only thing UDG did was give Toko a better relationship that is not as toxic as Togami

ClickyCal' · Mar 9, 2021

Glad someone said it

I remember for Popplio especially there was a lot of handwringing at the evolutions being "too girly".
F Pikachu getting the heart tail was already just weird.

Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."

Spear of the Metal Church

The GIFs of Us

The Wise Ones

One Winged Slayer

The Wise Ones

One Winged Slayer

One Winged Slayer

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.

One Winged Slayer

The GIFs of Us

The GIFs of Us

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.

The GIFs of Us

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.

Spear of the Metal Church

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.

Spear of the Metal Church

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.

Spear of the Metal Church

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.

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