Where were y'all when I was saying I think Tifa's design is trash and I was only getting hounded on for that
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."
- Thread starter Persephone
- Start date
- OT
These are some really nice designs.
I was taken aback for a moment by the last one. With all the tragic, violent thrusts that most games have, it's kind of odd to see a happy looking black couple.
Reminds me of Kassandra from AC Odyssey.Fortnite been havin some hits lately
Highly highly & strongly agreed with you two here.
That's super interesting. For the longest time, Bayo was held up as a good example of a sexualized char every where I turned (specifically among women; don't care what other guys think regarding that).
With that no longer being the case, is it possible at all to have a good char that is also sexualized? Does one currently exist?
With that no longer being the case, is it possible at all to have a good char that is also sexualized? Does one currently exist?
yeah for sure, it's less for their own take and more for the anecdotal experiences they offer with direct photos/articles in addition to their own experiences working there.
my experience, people that move to Japan tend to offer anecdotal experiences through a lens of someone that's always wanted to live in Japan since they saw anime in highschool. This person's experiences sound far more closer to reality than those others. 🤷🏽♂️
I also tend to walk a way from their website with a 🤔 hmmm, I see, reaction.
I haven't played fortnite but some of the artwork and cutscenes look like the women are confident, sexy, smart and know their stuff. It also feels like I wont feel like I'm a pervert watching a peepshow while playing it.
Funny thing is, my first thought was Immortals. Which goes to show you that Immortals (which is good), really does feel like: "What if Odyssey but filtered through Fortnite?"
That's the tricky thing right, about a sexual character like Bayonetta which should be fine but then the sexualisation is unfortunately also attached which can at times undermine that. If James Bond, Kratos, Leisure Suit Larry, Geralt, and other male sexual characters can exist without sexualisation or objectification, why not female sexual characters? Surprisingly there are very few female sexual protagonists outside of RPGs like Bioware games, Assassin's Creed, or Cyberpunk 2077. There is just Cate Archer who can be sexual but isn't objectified, which is why I'm still wishing Monolith or some developer buys the rights back and makes a new NOLF game.
I want a new NOLF game, I love this series! Plus having more female leads in FPS games would be a plus.That's the tricky thing right, about a sexual character like Bayonetta which should be fine but then the sexualisation is unfortunately also attached which can at times undermine that. If James Bond, Kratos, Leisure Suit Larry, Geralt, and other male sexual characters can exist without sexualisation or objectification, why not female sexual characters? Surprisingly there are very few female sexual protagonists outside of RPGs like Bioware games, Assassin's Creed, or Cyberpunk 2077. There is just Cate Archer who can be sexual but isn't objectified, which is why I'm still wishing Monolith or some developer buys the rights back and makes a new NOLF game.
That's a difficult question to answer because while it's "easy" to define what constitutes being sexualized, once it's agreed on that a character is a sexualized one to then come to an agreement over how much sexualization is acceptable, which kind of sexualization is empowering, what were the intentions of the creators and most importantly how women feel about said sexualization is much more difficult since it's a subjective thing at the end of the day.
It makes sense that whenever you asked for a character that was sexualized in the "correct" way many answered Bayonetta, since I too believe she is a good attempt at it.
It doesn't mean everyone is gonna agree with it, as others already demonstrated.
To answer your question, I do believe it's possible to have a good char that is also sexualized, and one may very well exist. What is impossible IMHO is having everyone agree on it. You could ask 1000 women to divide the 100 most popular female characters in gaming in two folders: the ones that they find sexist, and the ones that they do not and it would be an half-miracle if two women came up with the same list.
It's the fun thing with not being a hivemind, everyone has different ideas. Bayonetta is widely regarded as "less bad" than others and you will find people calling her the most sexist character they ever saw.
On the other hand Pyra is widely regarded as one of the worst examples and yet you are sure to find women who will defend her to the bitter end in good faith, while also finding other characters (like Bayonetta) to be problematic.
Do you remember in the previous thread people linked the article about that woman who bonded with freaking Ivy Valentine and found her empowering and will now always love the character?
She is bound to answer that Ivy is the good kind of sexualized character you are asking for, but many would disagree. And you know what? VALID!
The only answer is that there is a different answer fore every person on the planet.
Love this series and the protagonist.That's the tricky thing right, about a sexual character like Bayonetta which should be fine but then the sexualisation is unfortunately also attached which can at times undermine that. If James Bond, Kratos, Leisure Suit Larry, Geralt, and other male sexual characters can exist without sexualisation or objectification, why not female sexual characters? Surprisingly there are very few female sexual protagonists outside of RPGs like Bioware games, Assassin's Creed, or Cyberpunk 2077. There is just Cate Archer who can be sexual but isn't objectified, which is why I'm still wishing Monolith or some developer buys the rights back and makes a new NOLF game.
Also conversation reminds me of Perfect Dark. They had a pretty badass character in Joanna Dark but the sequel tried to make her more sexualized.
And now we got a new Perfect Dark coming on XSX so I wonder how her design will be. Going by the concept art it seems fine.
I mean it doesn't seem like there is really a consensus about her either way.
I'm looking at some of the earlier promo pics from Perfect Dark Zero and...yikes.
Rare released these 15 artworks and images of Perfect Dark Zero. Some have already been seen before, but I'm quite sure at least a few of them are brand new.
Rare released these 15 artworks and images of Perfect Dark Zero. Some have already been seen before, but I'm quite sure at least a few of them are brand new.
www.gamersyde.com
Yeah, it seems Rare didn't mind trying to sex her up for some reason. I bet it won't really be there in the new game mostly likely.I'm looking at some of the earlier promo pics from Perfect Dark Zero and...yikes.
Rare released these 15 artworks and images of Perfect Dark Zero. Some have already been seen before, but I'm quite sure at least a few of them are brand new.
Rare released these 15 artworks and images of Perfect Dark Zero. Some have already been seen before, but I'm quite sure at least a few of them are brand new.
It's funny, as someone just posted an example of a Fortnite char as oversexualized in this thread, which leads me to think...
...that this is correct. It's obviously still tough, because it would be nice to have one solid example, but as you say, women are not a hivemind. I've seen a number of women super hyped about Pyra, and women who thought Pyra was a gross addition. And then one person who was in-between - she made a post about her experiences in the gaming community, but then commented the issue is how people treat real women after (it is a good insight into the gross shit women experience, and I can link it on request). But in the end...
...I think y'all are right here. But then again, because women are not a hivemind on this subject, I guess it's easier to just point to the worst examples of sexualization. Like, after this conversation, I realize maybe I just shouldn't have an opinion on Bayo.
But, I suppose the goal is ultimately to diversify designs - not to remove sexualized designs entirely. Though we have a lot of designs to go before we have made up for the current designs of women in games, I suppose.
This is all good info/feedback.
EDIT: Wait, has it only been guys saying Bayo's design is bad so far in here? That may change my perspective a bit.
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I mean, like I said I haven't played the games and it sounds like the camera is crazy awful with her--and I am certainly in no way trying to say she isn't without problem, but the question was why Bayonetta's design wasn't seen as problematic as Mythra's and Prya's. Bayo's been brought up in these threads several times over the years--most of my osmosis about her is actually through here, and just the impression I get is yeah she is sexualized but it's a lot easier to accept because her character seems to take that sexualization by the horns and directs it (camera angles aside, apparently). And if you feel like her design alone is just as bad as Mythra's/Pyra's then.. idk, guess it's just a matter of opinion. I look at Mythra and Pyra and notice 840324930 different compounded little details of stereotypical sexualization that make my lips curl and I feel disgusted and just devalued as a woman by their designs alone, vs I look at some of the crazily posed official renders of Bayonetta on google and I think she looks stupid but also kinda cool and I don't feel bad by it. Instead, I actually kinda wanna know more, and I can tell you literally no other sexualized female character from a video game I can think of has ever made me feel like that--like I wanna know more about them based on how they look instead of running away screaming. There's just something about her design and the personality she exudes that hits different.
Of course, maybe if/when I finally get around to playing the games I'll walk away from them completely hating it and her. But at the very least she reads super different to something like Mythra/Pyra from an outside perspective. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Vermillion With Bayonetta, there are a lot of women who do find her empowering and liberating, even if many like myself also acknowledge the skeeviness of the camera and other issues. So I don't think Bayonetta is a character/design that simply sucks and has no redeeming qualities and is rather more nuanced. That's not to say someone can't disagree, especially other women, but as a man weighing in I think that's something at least worth bearing in mind.
Speaking more generally I have always seen this thread as a safe space for women first and foremost so I think male members listening more than taking charge of conversations is best.
Speaking more generally I have always seen this thread as a safe space for women first and foremost so I think male members listening more than taking charge of conversations is best.
Personally I've always found myself really uncomfortable with the takes of 2omg look how feminist Bayonetta is". The male gaze-ness throughout the games and videos I've seen make me really uncomfortable, same as with the design. I like her personality and her as a character but.. yeah.
sorry I was busy getting schooled by tifa avatars in the FF7R OT that real women commonly wear miniskirts at the gym and how dare I be a bodyshamer 💀
I mostly lurk and make the odd post in here but just want to say I agree with a lot of what you've been saying.
I'm a little disappointed actually that people in this thread who post to gain equal terms for a group mistreated were in some cases so quick to get defensive/dismissive rather than give themselves self reflection.
I literally come here as a heterosexual white male for that reason to try and improve myself and gain better understanding of different groups and positions I may not have noticed before because of the side of the river I'm on.
Apologies if this is poorly worded. Though English is my first language I'm not as articulate in putting my thoughts into words as some posters here are.
That's the tricky thing right, about a sexual character like Bayonetta which should be fine but then the sexualisation is unfortunately also attached which can at times undermine that. If James Bond, Kratos, Leisure Suit Larry, Geralt, and other male sexual characters can exist without sexualisation or objectification, why not female sexual characters? Surprisingly there are very few female sexual protagonists outside of RPGs like Bioware games, Assassin's Creed, or Cyberpunk 2077. There is just Cate Archer who can be sexual but isn't objectified, which is why I'm still wishing Monolith or some developer buys the rights back and makes a new NOLF game.
YES! Precisely it! Let's have female protagonists/main characters/characters be sexual, but not sexualized/objectified/waifuized!
Oh ho ho ho, I mean, at the current rate and ratio of female characters and their severe poorly portrayal/representation/etc, I would like a complete removal of sexualized/objectified/waifuized character designs and narratives. Oh and, I won't be meeting no man/guy consumerist in some middle grounds "compromise" of my own gender/sex, as it's suppose to be for me, and all my fellow lady sisters to feel happy with, good with, empowering with, etc.
Yup! I can definitely understand you here, and agree with you. I'm right there with you!
finally started anodyne 2 now that it's on consoles and just wanted to share the neat designs
more in the manual pdf:
more in the manual pdf:
bayonetta only 'works' if she was a real person choosing to act the way she does. As it is, the game knows and acknowledges the male gaze and just makes a character that totally provides and people fill in the rest to sugar coat it.
youre 100% right, but I think they do a good job characterizing her in the game that people make a genuine positive connection with her design and style of aesthetic.Which is what separates her from other characters that are ALSO sexually objectified.
If women are feeling positive about her I think that's good, assuming they can handle the criticism of her as well.
Very next sentence in the quote! But I get ya
EDIT: I'll add, thank you for weighing in re: Bayo. Seems very much more complex than I originally believed, but it's good to know that too.
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Yeah.
The biggest difference for me is Bayonetta doesn't get infantilized like Pyra or Mythra. She's not treated as a waifu to romance in game either.
I'm just quoting you because I'm on the same page here. I mostly lurk (actually, I don't think I've posted in this thread at all yet, but I did make a few posts in the first OT), and as I was catching up with the last 10 or so pages (whenever the Pyra discussion started), it was getting more and more uncomfortable. Although kaebie is right that the thread in both iterations has always had a problem with the way people discuss Japan especially in regards to "progressivism", and she was 100% absolutely correct to call it out. It makes me feel sad that she basically got run out of this thread for actually speaking out about it.
I really hope you've had time to think about this response and how bad it comes across. Non-Asian members' feelings of discomfort for having to examine the way they speak about Asian countries are in no way equatable to the absolute shit AsianEra sees on a daily basis on this site. And if you really want this thread to be a place for all of us to come together, you should be happy to examine yourself and course correct to make it a more welcoming place for everyone and not just a comfortable place for anyone to spout whatever they want as long as they are a woman.
Edit: sent you a PM to respect your wishes of not dragging this out in the thread, but I just wanted to apologize for making assumptions here as well.
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I bash on anime games a lot, I think I'm careful about how I phrase things but I'm not completely sure, its entirely possible I may have phrased things in a way that was bad or hurtful in the past and if I have I'm sorry for that. Even if I haven't, I am definitely guilty of sitting back and not even noticing the problem as people posted sweeping generalizations about Japan. Complacency.
The defensiveness of several posters was really disappointing to see. The last couple pages of this thread have read a lot like the way past larger era threads on sexualization have gone. Like when people voiced discomfort in the Resident Evil Village lady thread, and all the sudden rush of defensive shitty posts about how they weren't doing anything wrong. That kind of shit we all hate and dunk on when it happens regarding women's issues, we shouldn't immediately become those people when Kaebi posts a good faith critique of our thread's behavior.
The defensiveness of several posters was really disappointing to see. The last couple pages of this thread have read a lot like the way past larger era threads on sexualization have gone. Like when people voiced discomfort in the Resident Evil Village lady thread, and all the sudden rush of defensive shitty posts about how they weren't doing anything wrong. That kind of shit we all hate and dunk on when it happens regarding women's issues, we shouldn't immediately become those people when Kaebi posts a good faith critique of our thread's behavior.
This one from a game I'm super excited about. I see some people in the comments suggesting the armors for women haven't always been this way - but I wouldn't know as I don't play as a woman in MH.
Still, they're loving that thigh window this time around
Here's some examples of robotic inspired armor from past games.
(The one on the right is the female set)
MH has never been great when it comes to female armor sets, but based on what they've shown Rise looks like one of the worst yet. Though at least the flagship's armor set isn't literal bikini armor like Nergigante in World?
I hear you.
I also wanted to point out that if anyone is feeling empowered by Bayo, more power to them. That is inherently a good thing. I also understand that lot of women and girls are body-conscious and Bayonetta being DGAF mode is very exciting and a strong role model to consider. Her personality is actually decent.
What I take issue with however is, as a guy, the overt-sexualization of the Bayonetta to me comes from not a place of feminism or empowerment. Her person and agency seems to have been substituted for a guy's idea of sexy witch librarian lady. Does Bayo kick ass and take names? He'll yes she does. But she could have done that without moves like this
Or this
There is...I shouldn't say "no need" for her dance moves, but rather I find the argument that she is not hyper sexualized for male fantasy NOT hold much weight. There are other sexy poses, some leaning into pole dancing. Which is fine in a specific context. But I dont see that context here. As an aside, Blaze Fielding from SoR4 is also very sexualized in her appearance: miniskirt, bra+crop top jacket. However, she works as a dance-instructor according to the lore, and her moves in the game do not evoke sexual imagery at all. But at the same time, her idle animation has her fluffing her hair back. That to me is a good example of strong character, who is also in tune with her sex appeal.
I also think that there is no right and wrong answer. Some who find Bayo empowering might find Blaze a male fantasy, or vice versa, or none at all or both. I think it's fine too! I apologize if I came off too strong.
Let's take a look at the most popular mobile games, then. I will talk about the ones from China. I am ignoring PUBG mobile because it is a port of a Korean game.
Top 5 Chinese mobile games
First place is Knives Out (荒野行动). You've probably never heard of it because it is a Fortnite-like game that draws most of its revenue from Japan. If you search for images of its costumes, you will find a lot of impractical and fetish outfits for women. But the costumes and hairstyles are gender neutral, so you can put a buff dude in a maid costume and twintails, or put everyone in street clothes.
Second place is Honor of Kings (皇者荣耀). You've probably never heard of it either because it was completely localized--character designs and all--as Arena of Valor outside of China. This is its character roster. It's very much like League of Legends in design philosophy, but the women's faces have more of a pretty CG women out of an Asian game look.
Third place is Speed Drifters (QQ飞车). It's a racing game that sells car parts and clothes for the driver avatar. The vast majority of those are modern street clothes.
(Fourth place is technically Tiao Yi Tao, but that's a stick figure + geometric shapes game, so I am not including it in the ranked list)
Fourth place is Junior Three Kingdoms (少年三国志). It's the first one on the list that has exploitative female character designs everywhere.
Fifth place is Love Nikki-Dress UP Queen (奇迹暖暖). Someone please fire the NA/EU localizer and replace them with the SEA localizer that named it Miracle Nikki. It is a costume crafting game. This is the first one on the list whose art style is distinctly patterned after Japanese animation. Its western fanbase is somewhere around 89% female and 6% nonbinary. The Chinese fanbase is about 74% female.
Top 3 Chinese retail RPGs
Here are the female protagonists of the 3 most popular retail RPGs from China, so we are not working with the Chinese = mobage/MMO stereotype.
This is a game that sold 1.36 million copies, basically in China alone, though it is available in English on Steam.
Well~ Chinese Wuxia and Senxia outfit are usually like that...
新蜀山劍俠傳
仙劍奇俠傳四
古劍奇譚
絕代雙驕
Here's some examples of robotic inspired armor from past games.
(The one on the right is the female set)
MH has never been great when it comes to female armor sets, but based on what they've shown Rise looks like one of the worst yet. Though at least the flagship's armor set isn't literal bikini armor like Nergigante in World?
Ahhh, I see. So it's Rise-specific in that regard. Well, hopefully the armor designs we haven't seen have more variety.
Here's some examples of robotic inspired armor from past games.
(The one on the right is the female set)
MH has never been great when it comes to female armor sets, but based on what they've shown Rise looks like one of the worst yet. Though at least the flagship's armor set isn't literal bikini armor like Nergigante in World?
It's beginning to annoy me as a lot of the armors are made worse by these decisions.
I wanted to drop this discussion and leave it as it is. Everybody already said their piece and I already apologised to kaebie which she used as an opportunity to have a go at me again before she decided to leave. Despite that I accepted it and I still feel sorry for her. Now you're putting words in my mouth, and again making it about who has it worse. Before I talk more about this. Just to take all doubt away, which I have already mentioned multiply times already, I am happy to examine myself and make the place more welcoming for everyone. It is a good thing to be more specific to avoid unintentional racism. I don't even know why you're telling me this when it should be clear where I stand based on my comments.
Now to get back at this whole comparison between who has it worse, Asians vs non Asians as you mentioned. Do you know what's funny? I'm not even considered western. Heck, I'm not only Arabic but I'm also a Muslim who happens to be a woman! Based on this, I feel that I shouldn't be grouped as one with a western or ignorant perspective or however you want to call it. Secondly, I feel that this who has it worse card is really unnecessary and petty. Can you tell me who has it worse? Does that make me qualified to talk? Do you see how silly this sounds from my perspective?
I belong to one of the most worst treated groups and I am told that I am not accepting and that I don't understand how it feels. Not only do I belong to this group which is rife with racism against, I have also been treated with (physical) abuse by men/family. Also child physical abuse. I damn know well how it feels. I truly believed that anyone who participates in this thread has good intentions and wants what's best for all of us except for those (suicide) trolls that show themselves sometimes. Maybe that's being way too naive and maybe you have your reasons to behave this way (I mean in general whoever holds this opinion and not literally you). I stand by what I said earlier. I fully agree with the message of kaebie and I fully support it. But coming in this thread with the way she did was not the right way. She might have not only unintentionally hurt women who belong here but other minority groups who might have felt attacked or feeling like they are less important. We could have talked about Asian racism in this thread like how we talk about many things endlessly here. This attack with guns blazing attitude is not doing us any good. We make this thread more welcoming by being more mindful of our words AND giving the benefit of the doubt first before we start attacking. That is my point.
Do you now understand why I sound defensive or hurt? Don't make assumptions about me. Don't try to educate me about racism and tell me how I should have had the time to think about it. This sounds insulting and belittling with someone of my background.
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I have no opinion on if Bayonetta is empowering or feminist or not as I haven't played the games. I'm not arguing against anything you're saying, I'm literally just trying to explain why I don't see her design as bad as Pyra/Mythra. I don't have enough context to say anything else. And tbh, I don't feel comfortable trying to argue or discuss this further cuz it's clearly something I don't know enough about since I haven't played it, and I feel like I'm getting a bit pinned into a corner here lol.I hear you.
I also wanted to point out that if anyone is feeling empowered by Bayo, more power to them. That is inherently a good thing. I also understand that lot of women and girls are body-conscious and Bayonetta being DGAF mode is very exciting and a strong role model to consider. Her personality is actually decent.
What I take issue with however is, as a guy, the overt-sexualization of the Bayonetta to me comes from not a place of feminism or empowerment. Her person and agency seems to have been substituted for a guy's idea of sexy witch librarian lady. Does Bayo kick ass and take names? He'll yes she does. But she could have done that without moves like this
Or this
There is...I shouldn't say "no need" for her dance moves, but rather I find the argument that she is not hyper sexualized for male fantasy NOT hold much weight. There are other sexy poses, some leaning into pole dancing. Which is fine in a specific context. But I dont see that context here. As an aside, Blaze Fielding from SoR4 is also very sexualized in her appearance: miniskirt, bra+crop top jacket. However, she works as a dance-instructor according to the lore, and her moves in the game do not evoke sexual imagery at all. But at the same time, her idle animation has her fluffing her hair back. That to me is a good example of strong character, who is also in tune with her sex appeal.
I also think that there is no right and wrong answer. Some who find Bayo empowering might find Blaze a male fantasy, or vice versa, or none at all or both. I think it's fine too! I apologize if I came off too strong.
Apologies if my opinions on her made anyone uncomfortable, I'm out for now and don't think I'll speak on Bayo again until after I play the games, if I ever do. /w\;;
First time thread poster, occasional lurker. He/him cisgender gay man.
I played Bayonetta near the end of my high school years, when I was reaching that age where you start consuming media more critically. I don't really recall why I picked up the game; I think I saw a trailer for it, and while the sexualized elements were apparent, the idea of this badass British glasses-wearing gun-heel witch was just so out there that I felt drawn to picking it up.
(I wasn't out at the time, but my latent gay sensibilities might also have played a role here.)
The character absolutely clicked for me as I played through the game. The sexualization was there, but it was secondary compared to Bayonetta's badassery and the unapologetic femininity. When I reached the ending of the game, I was frankly blown away. To list a few of the story events that framed my perception of Bayonetta as a character:
When I finished the game, I actually felt that Bayonetta was one of the most overtly feminist games that I had played, which is not at all what I expected when I first picked it up. This isn't to say that it's an objectively feminist game by any means; as GrandeRampel explained above, everyone is going to have a different perception of Bayonetta. I can only give mine.
It wasn't until a few years later that I stumbled upon this blog post, which helped me to understand how the had beaten the odds and subverted expectations by having a sexualized character portrayed in a feminist way.
Castrating the Straight Male Gaze on Bayonetta (or at least making room for other ones!)
To me, Bayonetta 1 is the female version of things like God of War or Serious Sam. It's a celebration of femininity; an unapologetic and unironic power fantasy featuring butterflies, dancing, hair, heels, and lipstick. That's probably not a perspective I would have if I were a straight man, but it's what it gave to me.
In closing, I'll just mention that Bayonetta 2 does not achieve the same delicate balance that Bayonetta 1 did. Bayonetta is a similar character in a vacuum, but the story events and supporting characters frame her in an entirely different light, without the feminine power fantasy or subtle gender commentary of the first game. To me, this just emphasizes how critical the actual game events of Bayonetta 1 are to framing her character, and how unfortunately rare it is to see it pulled off in a way that works. Fingers crossed for Bayonetta 3.
I played Bayonetta near the end of my high school years, when I was reaching that age where you start consuming media more critically. I don't really recall why I picked up the game; I think I saw a trailer for it, and while the sexualized elements were apparent, the idea of this badass British glasses-wearing gun-heel witch was just so out there that I felt drawn to picking it up.
(I wasn't out at the time, but my latent gay sensibilities might also have played a role here.)
The character absolutely clicked for me as I played through the game. The sexualization was there, but it was secondary compared to Bayonetta's badassery and the unapologetic femininity. When I reached the ending of the game, I was frankly blown away. To list a few of the story events that framed my perception of Bayonetta as a character:
- Bayonetta channeling her fears and insecurities into strength, and acting as an inspirational figure for herself in the same way that her mother did for her.
- Bayonetta being misunderstood by the secondary male characters (early Luka, Balder), but admired by the female characters (Jeanne, Cereza).
- Bayonetta shooting her deranged, abusive father in the head with her mother's lipstick.
- Bayonetta being saved at the end by Jeanne, and accepting her as a friend/platonic love interest while being politely indifferent towards the male love interest (Luka).
- The finale of the game being a battle between four female characters who each get badass moments to steal the spotlight, without a man anywhere in sight.
When I finished the game, I actually felt that Bayonetta was one of the most overtly feminist games that I had played, which is not at all what I expected when I first picked it up. This isn't to say that it's an objectively feminist game by any means; as GrandeRampel explained above, everyone is going to have a different perception of Bayonetta. I can only give mine.
It wasn't until a few years later that I stumbled upon this blog post, which helped me to understand how the had beaten the odds and subverted expectations by having a sexualized character portrayed in a feminist way.
Castrating the Straight Male Gaze on Bayonetta (or at least making room for other ones!)
To me, Bayonetta 1 is the female version of things like God of War or Serious Sam. It's a celebration of femininity; an unapologetic and unironic power fantasy featuring butterflies, dancing, hair, heels, and lipstick. That's probably not a perspective I would have if I were a straight man, but it's what it gave to me.
In closing, I'll just mention that Bayonetta 2 does not achieve the same delicate balance that Bayonetta 1 did. Bayonetta is a similar character in a vacuum, but the story events and supporting characters frame her in an entirely different light, without the feminine power fantasy or subtle gender commentary of the first game. To me, this just emphasizes how critical the actual game events of Bayonetta 1 are to framing her character, and how unfortunately rare it is to see it pulled off in a way that works. Fingers crossed for Bayonetta 3.
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Something I'm really starting to notice in games:
Men grow more hair and become more muscles when they age.
Women get bigger boobs and shorter skirts.
I noticed this a lot in Trails of Cold Steel 3. It's like, how do you even manage those chests? More importantly, why does everyone have to throw themselves onto Rean as if he was the god of the universe?
Thank god you can't date the kids.
Finally beat it though. It was painful to see the high levels of sexism. I'm not really anticipating it, but the wife got it for xmas to complete the series. I will grit up and make it through to the end.
Men grow more hair and become more muscles when they age.
Women get bigger boobs and shorter skirts.
I noticed this a lot in Trails of Cold Steel 3. It's like, how do you even manage those chests? More importantly, why does everyone have to throw themselves onto Rean as if he was the god of the universe?
Thank god you can't date the kids.
Finally beat it though. It was painful to see the high levels of sexism. I'm not really anticipating it, but the wife got it for xmas to complete the series. I will grit up and make it through to the end.
I'm looking at some of the earlier promo pics from Perfect Dark Zero and...yikes.
Rare released these 15 artworks and images of Perfect Dark Zero. Some have already been seen before, but I'm quite sure at least a few of them are brand new.
Rare released these 15 artworks and images of Perfect Dark Zero. Some have already been seen before, but I'm quite sure at least a few of them are brand new.
Everything about the Perfect Dark Zero era was ridiculous. Early concept art from 2002:
And at one point she looked like this:
And then this was official artwork to promote the game:
I wasn't done saying my piece actually, people made sure of that. I'm slowly catching up on the Bayonetta talk (good stuff) and feel compelled to make one thing perfectly clear, if it wasn't already: I did not fully leave, I decided to reduce my time on this forum in future due to the users who made me seem out of control, "extreme," or even pitting me against the OP who I have zero ill will towards. I no longer feel comfortable posting frequently alongside those of you, and especially not the multiple people who were banned when they come back. Apologies don't always immediately land, sometimes a person isn't ready to hear it yet so I don't think it's reasonable to scorn me for not making what amounted to a footnote of your comment the focus of my response. You have continued to tone police me in every reply.
It's common when Asian issues are the focus, for people to downplay it with 'Asians are priveleged compared to x' sometimes outright or implied (one comment brought up multiple non-Asian groups in this manner.) Despite the fact that conversations about other groups can take place simultaneously, this shut up and get on the back burner attitude receives very little scrutiny compared to the person bringing up specifically Asian issues. People talking about their own communities issues is NOT linked to similarly persecuted groups feeling like they can't talk for themselves or they "don't matter." It's the opposite, rights talks often gain traction simultaneously and benefit each other as long as the dominant group endeavours to listen.
(1) No matter how cutely or sweetly someone makes their case about a form of bigotry on this forum - even if they sing kumbayah while they're doing it - without fail there will be those who accuse them, as a silencing tactic, of being too angry or divisive on purpose.
(2) We've seen it in this thread frequently, especially OT1, with driveby commenters who refer to the OP's use of swearing for emphasis and biting sarcasm as a 'reason' they will continue disregarding the discussion they weren't having. Those users are rightfully mocked.
As Aerith observed, what I was getting at was the understanding afforded towards frustration at exclusionary things in (2) vs the lack of understanding in (1).
So with all things considered, you may feel your concerns are genuine but they readily appear otherwise due to your fixation on tone rather than message. If I displayed a lack of prudence on the matter, so did you. The last thing I will say to you is that if you can't find it in you to stop characterising my every response as an opportunistic "attack" then at least refrain from talking about me, the damage is done already.
It's common when Asian issues are the focus, for people to downplay it with 'Asians are priveleged compared to x' sometimes outright or implied (one comment brought up multiple non-Asian groups in this manner.) Despite the fact that conversations about other groups can take place simultaneously, this shut up and get on the back burner attitude receives very little scrutiny compared to the person bringing up specifically Asian issues. People talking about their own communities issues is NOT linked to similarly persecuted groups feeling like they can't talk for themselves or they "don't matter." It's the opposite, rights talks often gain traction simultaneously and benefit each other as long as the dominant group endeavours to listen.
(1) No matter how cutely or sweetly someone makes their case about a form of bigotry on this forum - even if they sing kumbayah while they're doing it - without fail there will be those who accuse them, as a silencing tactic, of being too angry or divisive on purpose.
(2) We've seen it in this thread frequently, especially OT1, with driveby commenters who refer to the OP's use of swearing for emphasis and biting sarcasm as a 'reason' they will continue disregarding the discussion they weren't having. Those users are rightfully mocked.
As Aerith observed, what I was getting at was the understanding afforded towards frustration at exclusionary things in (2) vs the lack of understanding in (1).
So with all things considered, you may feel your concerns are genuine but they readily appear otherwise due to your fixation on tone rather than message. If I displayed a lack of prudence on the matter, so did you. The last thing I will say to you is that if you can't find it in you to stop characterising my every response as an opportunistic "attack" then at least refrain from talking about me, the damage is done already.
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