Isn't that the purpose of this thread, is to discuss things like that? The more we discuss it the more we can find out about it and seeing what the problem is(and how to fix it as well if possible).
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."
- Thread starter Persephone
- Start date
- OT
This is correct.
If people can't maturely discuss things without making blanket statements maybe they should re-evaluate how they go about contributing to a discussion they take seriously. No one is saying calling things out is bad, it's important to call things out.
It's not hard to not generalize. You can call out anything from Japan without going "lol Japan".
"It's ok to dismiss concerns as long as they aren't my concerns."
"It's ok to dismiss concerns as long as they aren't my concerns."
The purpose is to call out misogynistic designs in games, and highlight good ones. It doesn't need to get into trying to dissecting Japan as a culture though, or any cultures.
It's not out of nowhere, I've been ruminating on this for several months, so if you're uncomfortable for 1 day it doesn't compare. As evidenced by the defensiveness, anything more passionate than walking on eggshells is characterised as thread assassination. It's a simplistic view of the situation to say people are being attacked. People are being asked to consider the weight of their words, both intentional and unintentional.
Right, that's something that has to be taken care of and done better.
Yeah that's fair. The former is definitely true. At this point calling out on Japanese culture has gone too far, it shouldn't have gotten to that point.
Though I am learning as I'm still trying to get into this thread since I decided to get into this a few months ago.
One should be able to talk about otaku subculture, which is frankly no different from western nerd culture.
OP
OP
this ain't it chief
some of the takes in this thread definitely cross the line from "critique" to "generalising an entire country" and that's Not It. feminism has to be intersectional or else it's bullshit. i can put a note in the OT about it, or if an Asian member wants to write something i can edit it in.
Well, I think people say "America is fucking garbage" all the time, but I take your point. Specificity there may help.
Does that mean no conversation about West/Eastern cultures at all? For example, I can imagine no "Japan is always like this," but is it problematic to say "Western culture is more accepting of X and Eastern (Japanese) is more accepting of designs like Y"?
Intersectionality is tough, as someone else said. And this is a forum for everyone, while people feel comfortable only addressing certain topics in public. I can only speak on my specific experience, but I know for example that many other black people prefer to discuss black issues with other black people only. There's an understanding that it's not malicious. But then someone on the outside criticizing your culture - valid or totally off-base - can be incredibly suspicious.
Maybe? Upon further thought, maybe it's best to leave it up to Japanese-Americans to decide how to best approach that part of the conversation. So it's done in a careful way.
I think that otherwise, we're going to end up with more of what we have, with people banned for caring really heavily about one thing (sexism in gaming) and feeling like it's being ignored because of another group that's oppressed. Which just leads to this infighting.
It's really threading a fineline though because that still is ultimately talking a culture specific to Japan, which can easily bleed into unintentional xenophobia or at the least misinformation.
Yeah it's for the best if they do that. Going over the edge leads to bad things and constant talk on the subject that doesn't end well. It has to be done carefully for this to make it go the way it should.
I wouldn't partake in that, just calling out sexual things that aren't needed in certain games(only if it goes too far).
I'm sorry if what I said has made anyone uncomfortable. I now see how some of my posts may have been nothing more than generalizations.
We can all do better than that, and from now on I will try to not even talk about which specific country developed a game.
After all every time we criticize Ubisoft we do that without even mentioning that they are french. You want to critize CDPR? You are right to do so, because what they did is terrible regardless of their nationality. We can certainly do the same with Japanese/Chinese/Koreans developers. Blame th developer, or the company if they are problematic. Praise them if they seem to be getting better.
If in SF VI there are no more sexualized outfits, if SMT5 has a well made gay character, or if the next Xenoblade tones down the anime tropes and sexualization even more than Torna, we should praise the specific companies for getting it right, not saying a blanket and ignorant statment like "I guess Japan is finally catching up with the rest of the world". I will certainly be more careful from now on.
We can all do better than that, and from now on I will try to not even talk about which specific country developed a game.
After all every time we criticize Ubisoft we do that without even mentioning that they are french. You want to critize CDPR? You are right to do so, because what they did is terrible regardless of their nationality. We can certainly do the same with Japanese/Chinese/Koreans developers. Blame th developer, or the company if they are problematic. Praise them if they seem to be getting better.
If in SF VI there are no more sexualized outfits, if SMT5 has a well made gay character, or if the next Xenoblade tones down the anime tropes and sexualization even more than Torna, we should praise the specific companies for getting it right, not saying a blanket and ignorant statment like "I guess Japan is finally catching up with the rest of the world". I will certainly be more careful from now on.
The power disparity and colonial history of saying usa is xx compade to china is xx, japan is xx, middle east is xx is different and trying to compare them as same is not good and feel same as when white people complain being called name when say whu they cant xall other slur
I don't have a problem with you pointing out that people should be considerate with their words. What I do have problem with is your combative tone when you came talking about this. Even right now (intentional or not) you're responding with me kind of like = tough luck, DEAL WITH IT. And how it doesn't compare to you. The only reason that I am focusing on this is that I thought we were in this together. If there were members going out of line here, why did you hold back all this time? I'm sure we could have discussed this with every respect that we all deserve. I feel that you are treating the women and other minority here as if we are like the white males who don't care about you. And that hurts me more personally.
That's all. I just want you to understand my perspective. Anyway, it's really not my intention to single you out. I'm really sorry if I went too far.
Like she says, anti-asian sentiment is on a rise, so it's not really surprising to have something done now.
Alright, I went into the Genshin hole and there's a lot of kinda lame, pandering designs in there
but first, let's look at a big Genshin mess that I'm sure a lot of people pointed out- nearly every character has some sort of asymmetric fashion accessory
whether it's a cape to the side, on stocking higher than another, an arm band on only one arm; almost every character has this type of thing and it's just makes a ton of designs a mess. I just needed to start with this
there are some sweet designs in that game though. Both Ningguang and Zhongli look pretty good. Ninguang has the exposed legs but it's still a lot better than most of the women in the game
Zhongli though? top tier design. I love this dude. He's stylish as hell
there's a bunch of other cool looking dudes like Razor, Diluc, and Kaeya (gotta rep one of the few brown dudes in the game) but the girls are kinda meh. I'm fine with Lisa I guess since she's at least a mature woman who leans into the look, kinda liked bayonneta but some of the other girls don't act like they enjoy "showing off" but still have fanservice-y outfits and it's just jarring
but first, let's look at a big Genshin mess that I'm sure a lot of people pointed out- nearly every character has some sort of asymmetric fashion accessory
whether it's a cape to the side, on stocking higher than another, an arm band on only one arm; almost every character has this type of thing and it's just makes a ton of designs a mess. I just needed to start with this
there are some sweet designs in that game though. Both Ningguang and Zhongli look pretty good. Ninguang has the exposed legs but it's still a lot better than most of the women in the game
Zhongli though? top tier design. I love this dude. He's stylish as hell
there's a bunch of other cool looking dudes like Razor, Diluc, and Kaeya (gotta rep one of the few brown dudes in the game) but the girls are kinda meh. I'm fine with Lisa I guess since she's at least a mature woman who leans into the look, kinda liked bayonneta but some of the other girls don't act like they enjoy "showing off" but still have fanservice-y outfits and it's just jarring
The Pyra reveal brought in a little extra conversation getting into overall Japanese culture more than just the usual of design criticism. I guess because it's smash, and it's xb2. Things got heated in general from the reveal thread and in general. I think people said some stuff that shouldn't really be said, but weren't doing it out of malice. So I can see how it got to a boiling point for Kaebie.
Yeah, that is true. Whether you meant in general or what happened with the smash reveal.
I've read about it here and it sounds bad. I didn't want to waste my time there so I'm not sure how far it went and if our members from this topic were involved with vile words. You putting that out does give a bit of perspective and makes me a bit more understanding. Thank you.
Yea that's understandable. In that thread, it got to a point where this thread and people in general criticizing Pyra and other xb2 designs were being gaslit. That led to a bunch of stuff, but I think it sort bled into here because that was all that was discussed for a few days straight, and some people were just riding on emotions with going in on XB2....and then kind of going beyond that.
Edit-Not excusing things that people said or pointing at anyone specific, just explaining how things got to this point.
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It became apparent that some of us are more 'together' than others. Thought you were against tone policing but you're doing it rn. My post wasn't any more acerbic than the celebrated OP of this thread. It's so manipulative to say I just need to be nicer about it for anything to change and centering your hurt as an ally. And with that I'm out.
btw thank you GrandeRampel it means a lot.
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Personally when discussing sexualisation, I tend to focus more on the specific studio. Or I speak about the gaming industry as a whole. For example, I was having a discussion about Nioh 2 earlier today and one of the early enemies is an armless snake woman. A friend complained about the boob physics and why on earth a monster would need that. I basically responded that it's not surprising coming from Team Ninja, aka the studio that made the Dead or Alive games. That's a reputation that they've earned for themselves. It's not fair to malign all Japanese developers or single them out when nerd culture as a whole has a serious exclusionary issue when it comes to women and minorities. Just look at Gamergate and Comicsgate.
I recently had a discussion with a friend of mine after Pyra/Mythra got announced. And he came to the conclusion why are people easier to critique the Xenoblade 2 like designs compared to for example Bayonetta. As far as I know I haven't seen a lot of critique on her design or character?
Not to take away from the conversation happening, but I wanted to shout out some of the new cards added to Legends of Runeterra (from a new desert region).
The card game's got great art and most cards generally have good designs.
The card game's got great art and most cards generally have good designs.
I owe kaebie and others an apology for my earlier posts a page or two ago. When you read it, it sounds like I am generalizing Japan (which I didn't intend to do) and for that I apologize and will be better. I will be sure to be very careful with my language next time. Thanks for pointing it out kaebie and sorry for all offending posts.
I guess for a few reasons. Her design in general somehow feels a little less pandering in some ways. She is super tall in an almost "unnatural" way...well because she is a witch. She is actually mostly covered up outside of when she does the hair attacks. And then the fact that she "owns" her sexuality (even though it gets over the top in a few parts, like the horse riding scene in the second game). Even the one romance she kind of has with that guy feels somewhat two sided to an extent.
I'm not a big fan, but I can see how she is seen differently compared to Pyra, who clearly was designed for very specific reasons, and apparently not even fitting her personality at all. Although she is literally a sword and owned by Rex.
Relevant to the thread title
Cammy's new Killer Bee costume turns into this when you use the costume code
Neither of which are really new:
Still, nice to see her fighting in it.
It might be due to the genre and overall tone of the Bayonetta games, character action game protagonist in a silly setting with cheesy writing being flashy, licentious and generally over the top just doesn't feel as bad as a woman in a story rich RPG whom the audience is supposed to take seriously while she is simultaneously presented as calculated fapbait through all of it.
What's with the weird snipe at the OP? What has she done to make you angry?
I understand that as far as minorities within the U.S., but I'm not sure what you mean otherwise? China is the second-largest economy in the world with a ton of influence and power, and Japan is arguably a better first-world country than we are in many (most?) measurements.
When we talk about minorities in the U.S., there is a real and obvious power difference. When we talk about Middle Eastern countries, we know that much if it is that way because of U.S. interference. But other, powerful, thriving first-world countries? I'm not sure I get that comparison.
Again, within the U.S. I totally get it, as Asian-Americans are targeted, attacked, and disparaged. Similarly, I understand how loaded terms like "China virus" creates a particular culture. Just - not the country-specific stuff.
(Also, I feel this response is now sufficiently off-topic; I apologize)
That doesn't read like a snipe to me. Sounds like she's just asking for the same understanding.
There's also the history of majority white countries and their colonialism and imperialism, and of course white supremacy. There is a huge disparity in cultural power and influence for that reason. The attitudes towards these countries also impacts Asians living in other countries where they are minorities.
Yeah, that's valid. It sounds like the short of it is "be very careful when talking about non-white countries when there could be blowback on minorities within your country," which is fair.
I'll say bluntly that I feel this wouldn't be an issue if racists were able to differentiate, but it makes sense to be careful as they aren't. Thank you for having the discussion with me!
I suppose there are better places & better ways to have discussions that are explicitly culture-related. For the purposes of here, it makes sense to just use companies and individuals.
I haven't played Bayonetta, but from what I've seen of her from official art and gifs she just exudes agency with her design. Basically, I look at her and feel like she dressed herself. While I look at Pyra/Mythra and all I see is some horny dude(s) playing dress up.
Yuoke makes a great point with how her design is sexualized, too. Not all flavors of sexy outfits are the same. It's really hard to put into words but... there is just a vibe you can feel with sexualized designs that are made with the goal of showing a character embracing sexuality vs just being sexualized. With their poses, with their personality, with how they're proportioned, with the art style, with what areas are highlighted vs what areas aren't, etc -- all these little micro details that really add up. Like, for example, the straps digging into Mythra/Pyra's skin, the pigeon-toed poses, the constantly blushing/rosy cheeks, the sweet-but-tough and tough-but-sweet tropey personalities designed specifically to appeal; compared to Bayonetta's hyper-actiony poses that highlight the bizarre angles of her body more than the curves of her body, the makeup you know she applied herself, the knowing and in control smirks, the fashion model-esque proportions. Every element of Bayonetta's design and portrayal tells us something about her, while Mythra/Pyra's try to sell us on how appealing they can be to the viewer. It's the difference of treating one like a person first and treating one like a vessel for a kink checklist fist.
I also haven't played Bayonetta, but I agree! I've always felt she was sexual but not sexualized/objectified. But someone who has actually played could probably school us on this, haha.
I've played through both back on the wii u. Just not my type of gameplay, but tried it for the hype. There are a lot of sexualized poses and stuff through both games. Some are tame though and not too cringy. My tolerance for this stuff is very low, so if I could make it through both, then I guess it couldn't have been too bad. Her second design is slightly better and feels a little less out there.
Edit-Although it's been 6/7 years so I don't remember all of it.
The male gaze can get pretty bad though. I remember one moment where she's literally suffocating the camera with her ass in a manner similar(but worse and longer) to Ann in the Persona 5 Royal intro.
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Imo it's both. She very much is depicted as having ownership over her sexuality which is rad and quite rare in video games. But the camera is also very male gazey to uncomfortable degrees at times, so it's also there to titillate the presumed straight male audience.
I'll just add that I really appreciate all of kaebie's posts. I'd be a liar if I tried to claim I've not done exactly what she's brought up, even if just in my head or in person to my friends, especially when discussing character designs in video games and anime. It's easy to do without noticing, and I appreciate the wakeup call. I have to be more conscious of my word choices and how they affect others in this regard.
I probably won't have the best words to say what I want to say about this matter, so I'll do the best I can. *GULPS & SIGH* Here we go!
As a lady, I highly look up to Bayonetta with all of her high levels of confidence, and self esteem. I love the way she owns who she is/herself. The way she flaunts not just her looks, but her personality is completely stellar to me in that she's become a role model to me in how I can/should/am/will embrace myself, and try to carry myself out the way she does, or at least similarly to her. I have a very... sisterly? bond with Bayonetta personally, it's like I see her in the lens of a older sister/bigger sister for me while simultaneously seeing her as a best/close/kindred friend. Whenever I play Bayonetta games, I always say to myself "Ladies day/night only! Where we do girly things and kick butt!". I love that she has dark hair like me and she wears glasses like me too! Also the double edge sword of irony here is that she is mostly covered up (well in her default outfit, and similar outfits to her default), even though all her outfits (that are funnily enough, her own hair somehow made into her own clothing) are skin tight/vacuumed sealed onto her skin. Meanwhile I feel a kind of connection to Bayonetta, it was very suffocating to see all the male gazey things going on in her games with the camera angles (when she would do those obscene poses/attack poses that the camera blatantly pans over to focus on such times, and among other things), and certain cut scenes (like the one where she and Luka were in the helicopter there was a rain drop going into her boob window cleavage for Luka to ogle who is suppose to mirror/reflect the male audience, and among other things), and of course outfitting her in questionable fetish costumes. I've grown to get use to what she does and what her powers do that take into factor of what she does, so I'm just at a weird acceptance of it since it really just adds up to who she is, however I wish the male gaze non sense would stop. I just wish that Bayonetta was moreorless the "one and done" sexual/sexualized female character, and that all other female characters from all other video games can stop with the sexualization/objectification/waifuization.
I also think it's worth noting that there was this particular cut scene where she mentions she's not interested in having children but she is rather into "the process of making children". The quote goes as: "Come now Cheshire. Look at me. Do I look like I have any interest in children? Now making them... Well, that's another story."... It would be really nice and cool to see her bed with characters in her game. I mean, back when I heard about Bayonetta and her sexuality, I was really hoping she would actually be in bed with characters, but it turns out she's having this endless waltz with herself as her sexuality, which I mean is okay and all, but I was just wishing for that to happen. I say this because I'm tired of the double standards/hypocrisy that characters like old school Kratos from od of War, and Geralt from Witcher can do these exact things in their games, but Bayonetta cannot??? All so she can be shown available for explicitly the male audience for the sake of waifuism/waifu baiting??? That's just bull to me. This would have been a tactful way of showcasing Bayonetta of who she is in her own game as part of her sexuality owning, but nope.
As a lady, I highly look up to Bayonetta with all of her high levels of confidence, and self esteem. I love the way she owns who she is/herself. The way she flaunts not just her looks, but her personality is completely stellar to me in that she's become a role model to me in how I can/should/am/will embrace myself, and try to carry myself out the way she does, or at least similarly to her. I have a very... sisterly? bond with Bayonetta personally, it's like I see her in the lens of a older sister/bigger sister for me while simultaneously seeing her as a best/close/kindred friend. Whenever I play Bayonetta games, I always say to myself "Ladies day/night only! Where we do girly things and kick butt!". I love that she has dark hair like me and she wears glasses like me too! Also the double edge sword of irony here is that she is mostly covered up (well in her default outfit, and similar outfits to her default), even though all her outfits (that are funnily enough, her own hair somehow made into her own clothing) are skin tight/vacuumed sealed onto her skin. Meanwhile I feel a kind of connection to Bayonetta, it was very suffocating to see all the male gazey things going on in her games with the camera angles (when she would do those obscene poses/attack poses that the camera blatantly pans over to focus on such times, and among other things), and certain cut scenes (like the one where she and Luka were in the helicopter there was a rain drop going into her boob window cleavage for Luka to ogle who is suppose to mirror/reflect the male audience, and among other things), and of course outfitting her in questionable fetish costumes. I've grown to get use to what she does and what her powers do that take into factor of what she does, so I'm just at a weird acceptance of it since it really just adds up to who she is, however I wish the male gaze non sense would stop. I just wish that Bayonetta was moreorless the "one and done" sexual/sexualized female character, and that all other female characters from all other video games can stop with the sexualization/objectification/waifuization.
I also think it's worth noting that there was this particular cut scene where she mentions she's not interested in having children but she is rather into "the process of making children". The quote goes as: "Come now Cheshire. Look at me. Do I look like I have any interest in children? Now making them... Well, that's another story."... It would be really nice and cool to see her bed with characters in her game. I mean, back when I heard about Bayonetta and her sexuality, I was really hoping she would actually be in bed with characters, but it turns out she's having this endless waltz with herself as her sexuality, which I mean is okay and all, but I was just wishing for that to happen. I say this because I'm tired of the double standards/hypocrisy that characters like old school Kratos from od of War, and Geralt from Witcher can do these exact things in their games, but Bayonetta cannot??? All so she can be shown available for explicitly the male audience for the sake of waifuism/waifu baiting??? That's just bull to me. This would have been a tactful way of showcasing Bayonetta of who she is in her own game as part of her sexuality owning, but nope.
Finally was able to gather up all the portraits of the women companions in Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous.
These are super cool
I completely disagree.. Bayonetta is straight up sexualized, fetishisized portrayal of women. I mean, sexy librarian lady (don't forget glasses too) in leather tights making suggestive poses, and the camera is just all up in her business. I find it quite easily one of the worst offenders out there. Being confident is one thing, but substituting hyper sexualized male fantasy of what confident women look like is bad cringe in my opinion.
fwiw that Twitter user and person who runs the site is a white guy living in America. Not all articles are written by him, as the one linked to isn't. And it's not to say articles can't be well researched or provide its own perspective. Or that it can't be well intentioned. But it does kinda run up against a similar issue of a white westerners dictating conversations about another culture. I dunno. Whether that's a good thing or bad thing or just a thing is up to the audience. Can only speak for myself, but I try to listen to a variety of voices and perspectives so I'm fine with it. If there's disappointment, it's that some voices tend to be louder than others. That's a larger systemic issue I can't even begin to touch on.
You know it's bad when your game is only remembered for a single ass gif
Ha, ha, yeah, I wasn't too big on the game, and the sexualization didn't help with that.
I've never met someone IRL who loved Smash who wasn't immature trash