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esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,276
Find a way to talk about JRPGs without unearned western exceptionalism 🙄
There's nothing exceptional about western video games, but their designs have become more inclusive and, to some degree, less sexist and CIS male pandering only. That said, there's basically nothing about 99% of modern video games that interests me because the games that are made just aren't terribly interesting. They're mostly just endless rehashes of the same game with a different coat of paint. The Souls series was the last time I think we've actually seen a new genre emerge in video games, which tells you how little innovation there's actually been. I'd argue that Kind Words also invented a genre, but it's not a genre that, as yet, has taken off.

I do wonder if it's even possible for people to get tired of First-Person Shooters. It's a genre that's failed upwards in such a spectacular fashion.

Maybe more to the point, the mechanical genres that have been invented, are also largely power fantasies, which is why there's so little diversity. A medium squandered on imagining oneself being above others.
 
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Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,311
Finally was able to gather up all the portraits of the women companions in Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous.

seelahfemalepaladin-pathfinder-wiki-guide.png

arueshalaefemalesuccubusranger-pathfinder-wiki-guide.png

camellia-pathfinder-wrath-of-the-rightous-wiki-guide.jpg

b9aabe72c6e51560dea6906456f7652a_original.jpg

wenduagfemalemongrelranger-pathfinder-wiki-guide.png
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Back in the day, there were several websites and off-site threads dedicated to shitting on me everytime I posted against fanboyism and objectification. I eventually accepted they were (horrifying) evidence I was saying the right things as apathy is the true enemy of progress.

All those posters are probably now married with kids, which is weird to think about.

Yeah, sometimes using google to find a post that I replied to (because Era's search is legendarily awful) I've come across posts on kiwifarms or whatever shithole they frequent, from people that I've never even interacted with, yet are somehow obsessed enough with me, that I seem to be a household name for them. I wear that sort of weird recognition, living on bigot's heads rent-free, as a minor badge of honor. :)
 
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apathetic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,723
Genuine question, do people think things have improved, degraded, or just maintained status quo over the last 10 years?

I'd like to think that things have improved even though i am less and less tolerant of the same stuff that's been there for ages. The relentless pandering without any progression has taken its toll to the point that I'm not really sure if things have changed or not.

I fucking loved the Xeno series but can't stand XC2 because of character design even if the story in the background is still great. And then looking back were any of the previous games really much better? Even Gears, which is still my favorite game? Still havent started 13 Sentinals because of "oh hey, nude teenagers" even though everyone talks about how great the story is. Wish I could just enjoy shit while ignoring the shittyness but It's getting harder and harder.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,510
They're all designed by women and the duo of both games are aged between 17-21 (the evil version you posted is supposed to be 19). The issue with Splatoon is that all the playable characters are supposed to be 17-19 but because of issues with designing a non-masculine "boy character", they de-aged the player characters to 14 while keeping the story as the youthful rebellion of the 17-18 year olds. Hence the obvious issues.


What saves Fire Emblem is A) it's vast western popularity dragging the series to more progressive designs and B) the fact that Intelligent Systems, while not a part of Nintendo HQ, is LITERALLY next door, which has to have some kind of positive impact.
Yea that's true. The series isn't for me at all, but hopefully Intelligent can keep things too far from just going off the deepend like Xenoblade.
 

tekomandor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
522
Finally was able to gather up all the portraits of the women companions in Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous.
Irabeth and Anevia, two major female NPCs, also have great portraits!

Also want to point that the game has genuinely good queer rep - some of it inherited from the module, but plenty of it from Owlcats.

Edit: Also, you missed Nenio
14879bd4508ab534898d144ef3e80d4aeefd960a.jpeg
 
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Moogle

Top Mog
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,768
What saves Fire Emblem is A) it's vast western popularity dragging the series to more progressive designs

We can credit FE'S popularity in the west with the 6 years of trash that immediately followed: waifu bait Fates... which sold like hotcakes. Echoes was restrained by comparison, and had a more successful launch in Japan than the west. The mobile game, the less said the better. Bikini DLC. Gamers rising up because a petting mechanic was changed to face tapping.
3H took the series in a more positive direction because it was clearly made with an eye on catering more to women in general. The fanservice-heavy FE titles have historically been the ones that sell better outside of Japan.
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,365
Yeah. There is a real heavy problem with the way anime and anime games in general treat women and that is a high amount of the games that come out of japan, but I think its a pretty objective statement to say that the series got popular in the west when it started getting grosseR and more creepy waifu shit put in. Before Awakening came out fire emblem was "That game I got with my ambassador program on the 3ds", not a real huge franchise everyone cared about.

Three houses is the most popular and definitely an improvement over awakening and fates, but the start of popularity in the west was heavily based in the creepy aspects, not in spite of.


A thread was just made for this, but wow this really sums up a lot of stuff.


I can't watch the video right now, but as someone who was once a young girl who tried to go to a local Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 tournament, I can imagine some of the content here. Competitive multiplayer environments are all extremely toxic towards women and the way we get treated actively prevents us from pursuing the hobby. I kept playing the game online but I never tried to go to a local gathering again.
 
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grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,900
A thread was just made for this, but wow this really sums up a lot of stuff.

That's a really great video but I imagine people are going to start using her prior videos to argue against her point

Oh btw, the jiggle wasn't just part of the cinematic....
image0.gif

FFS
I went back & checked and this is just 2-3 frames taken out of context from her ending animation of moving to her left. It's not boob jiggle even when you view it at .25 speed

Not to say that there won't be such nonsense in the final game. It's just that the gameplay sections of the trailer don't show it (yet). And honestly, I'd be surprised if it was in the final release: not because I think they care, but rather that importing a physics engine to showcase boob jiggle for only Pyra/Myrthra is a waste of energy.
We can credit FE'S popularity in the west with the 6 years of trash that immediately followed: waifu bait Fates... which sold like hotcakes. Echoes was restrained by comparison, and had a more successful launch in Japan than the west. The mobile game, the less said the better. Bikini DLC. Gamers rising up because a petting mechanic was changed to face tapping.
3H took the series in a more positive direction because it was clearly made with an eye on catering more to women in general. The fanservice-heavy FE titles have historically been the ones that sell better outside of Japan.
Blazing Blade, Sacred Stones, Path of Radiance & Radiant Dawn all sold better in the US than Japan. It was the series cratering worldwide during the DS that made Nintendo freak out. But the series rebounded (and then some) with Awakening in the West & Japan.

So can't argue that the fanservicey titles are the ones that do better in the west when the DS Fire Emblem game was the only one to do poorly in comparison.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,510
That's a really great video but I imagine people are going to start using her prior videos to argue against her point


I went back & checked and this is just 2-3 frames taken out of context from her ending animation of moving to her left. It's not boob jiggle even when you view it at .25 speed

Not to say that there won't be such nonsense in the final game. It's just that the gameplay sections of the trailer don't show it (yet). And honestly, I'd be surprised if it was in the final release: not because I think they care, but rather that importing a physics engine to showcase boob jiggle for only Pyra/Myrthra is a waste of energy.

Blazing Blade, Sacred Stones, Path of Radiance & Radiant Dawn all sold better in the US than Japan. It was the series cratering worldwide during the DS that made Nintendo freak out. But the series rebounded (and then some) with Awakening in the West & Japan.

So can't argue that the fanservicey titles are the ones that do better in the west when the DS Fire Emblem game was the only one to do poorly in comparison.
Hmmm yea you're probably right. It still looks weird even seeing the trailer, but hopefully not actual jiggle in game. I'm pretty sure there are a few characters that actually have a jiggle effect though, but not for that at least.
 

Trucy Wright

Member
Dec 15, 2020
132
What saves Fire Emblem is A) it's vast western popularity dragging the series to more progressive designs

crediting the west for the progressive design is ……
I think Era forgets that Japan is not a country made of Otakus who lust for sexy anime waifus, and has many people with different ideologies and ideas, this type of mentality is like reducing Americans to horny men because comics and adult cartoons is dominated by sexualized women, and quite frankly I'm not into this discussion and stereotyping people.
 

Deleted member 4461

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,010
crediting the west for the progressive design is ……
I think Era forgets that Japan is not a country made of Otakus who lust for sexy anime waifus, and has many people with different ideologies and ideas, this type of mentality is like reducing Americans to horny men because comics and adult cartoons is dominated by sexualized women, and quite frankly I'm not into this discussion and stereotyping people.

I don't think that's stereotyping. Western culture is significantly more antagonistic towards certain designs, especially in a modern context. While there's still a ways to go, it's not stereotyping to suggest that can push a game to have less sexualized designs. Further, much of the popular media we get from Japan has those tropes. Much like our popular media is often more violent and "gritty." I'm open to your perspective though - why do you think this isn't the case?
 

Trucy Wright

Member
Dec 15, 2020
132
I don't think that's stereotyping. Western culture is significantly more antagonistic towards certain designs, especially in a modern context. While there's still a ways to go, it's not stereotyping to suggest that can push a game to have less sexualized designs. Further, much of the popular media we get from Japan has those tropes. Much like our popular media is often more violent and "gritty." I'm open to your perspective though - why do you think this isn't the case?

I didn't say they don't have ways to go, obviously they do.
however, OP credits the west for progressiveness in the FE designs as if, in Japan, they don't have these types of discussions themselves? there are feminists in Japan and saying stuff like "the west is responsible for the progressiveness in their media", is discrediting them especially since Era doesn't have many Japanese people to speak about themselves, its stereotyping and making it sound like they can't be progressive without the west's help
 

Deleted member 4461

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,010
I didn't say they don't have ways to go, obviously they do.
however, OP credits the west for progressiveness in the FE designs as if, in Japan, they don't have these types of discussions themselves? there are feminists in Japan and saying stuff like "the west is responsible for the progressiveness in their media", is discrediting them especially since Era doesn't have many Japanese people to speak about themselves, its stereotyping and making it sound like they can't be progressive without the west's help

I'm going to speak for them a little, but I don't think they were saying that Japan can't be progressive without our help. Japan does better than America in VERY many ways, and I believe we all know that.

As of this very moment, the West is a good bit ahead on gender equality (compared to Japan in particular). What I think grand meant is just that the market that developers/creators are aiming for will affect the designs they go for. Historically speaking, certain designs from Japanese games have been toned down for American audiences (hence, the Americans who are very "anti-censorship" of this type of content).

This isn't saying that all of Japan is super perverted, that they need the West's help to be progressive, that their feminist movement doesn't exist, or anything else. It's just saying certain things play better or worse here with respect to sexual content - which we know to be true.
 

dodo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,997
I don't think that's stereotyping. Western culture is significantly more antagonistic towards certain designs, especially in a modern context. While there's still a ways to go, it's not stereotyping to suggest that can push a game to have less sexualized designs. Further, much of the popular media we get from Japan has those tropes. Much like our popular media is often more violent and "gritty." I'm open to your perspective though - why do you think this isn't the case?

i mean for one thing, the fire emblem that truly took off in the west is the much more stylized/sexy one. three houses was coming off the back of that; the idea that western success "dragged" three houses in a different direction is completely ahistorical. on top of bringing in koei devs well known for making three kingdoms in to help with development (a series far more popular in japan), the character designer was chinatsu kurahana--well known for otome games not even released in the west.
 

Deleted member 4461

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,010
i mean for one thing, the fire emblem that truly took off in the west is the much more stylized/sexy one. three houses was coming off the back of that; the idea that western success "dragged" three houses in a different direction is completely ahistorical. on top of bringing in koei devs well known for making three kingdoms in to help with development (a series far more popular in japan), the character designer was chinatsu kurahana--well known for otome games not even released in the west.

That makes sense, especially the bit about the character designer. I believe that the idea is more that they first achieved success and then switched over. I don't know if it was for exactly those reasons, but I know that I've heard similar things about Monster Hunter - that World was designed more for Western audiences (granted, this wasn't about fanservice, but overall design).

I understand that Kurahana hasn't done designs for FEH, which appears to be more fanservicey either way.

In either case, I take your point - I just wanted to clarify that the intent didn't seem like they were trying to be xenophobic, but commenting on the different cultures and what flies in different places. And especially that it's not intended to shit on Japan or put America above Japan.
 

GrandeRampel

Member
Jul 22, 2020
209
Bari, Italy
I understand that Kurahana hasn't done designs for FEH, which appears to be more fanservicey either way.

She actually made art for one character in FEH. A man, lol.

Anyway about the jiggle physics on Mythra. I don't see it, personally. And I also doubt Sakurai would be able to get away with it.

He couldn't put Mai Shiranui in the background with the other SNK character because her boobs jiggle in her "iconic" idle animation and that would change the age rating.
I imagine jiggle physics on a playable character would also increase the age rating, so why bother to add it?

Tho to be fair the CERO can be a bit random with considering certain types of sexualization a big deal that change the rating, while others not so much.
 

Paroni

Member
Dec 17, 2020
3,407
Tho to be fair the CERO can be a bit random with considering certain types of sexualization a big deal that change the rating, while others not so much.

Women's dresses, skirts and legwear are a huge deal to CERO. They don't really care about skin tight clothing or exposed skin between waist and chest, but if the female character looks like you could see her panties, it's automatic B (12+) rating. Peach and Daisy escape this by having black voids under their skirts and Palutena's underwear was altered to be considered shorts instead of panties.
Mai Shiranui would probably have been fine to CERO without altering her breasts as long as Sakurai put pants, visible shorts or black stockings on her.
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,562
Welcome to the newcomers of Guilty Gear Strive. One got a nice fighting pose, the other is a woman, so...

guilty-gear-strive-open-beta-test-includes-rollback-netcode-most-of-roster_feature.jpg
 

y2kyle89

Member
Mar 16, 2018
9,490
Mass
Ask yourself, can you see a guy doing that stance?
When I first saw it I thought it could have been a go-between animation for Yamcha but
It's the butt blatantly toward the opponent which is ridiculous... The more I see the stance the more it irritates me.
perspective is what's messing with me. Like, in a 2d way it's her hip pointing towards the opponet but in 3d she is just pointing her butt at them.

Question retracted.
 

GrandeRampel

Member
Jul 22, 2020
209
Bari, Italy
Women's dresses, skirts and legwear are a huge deal to CERO. They don't really care about skin tight clothing or exposed skin between waist and chest, but if the female character looks like you could see her panties, it's automatic B (12+) rating. Peach and Daisy escape this by having black voids under their skirts and Palutena's underwear was altered to be considered shorts instead of panties.
Mai Shiranui would probably have been fine to CERO without altering her breasts as long as Sakurai put pants, visible shorts or black stockings on her.

Oh, interesting. Thanks for the info.


Welcome to the newcomers of Guilty Gear Strive. One got a nice fighting pose, the other is a woman, so...

guilty-gear-strive-open-beta-test-includes-rollback-netcode-most-of-roster_feature.jpg

That sure is an... interesting pose.
Giovanna has such a cool design, is one letter away from sharing her name with me and is a new character, so she ha no past to burden her.
Can we avoid doing weird shit with her, pretty please? I'm begging you ARKSYS!
 

Sacul64

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,762
Geez people are right that smash topic is like beating a head against a wall. Looks like Xeno is another series that I like where I will have to avoid going into topics on because of the fanbase. Apparently even pointing out as some one that likes the series that people are justified in getting turned off of the series for its problematic elements is a controversial statementand. Oh and also I view the game as the Antichrist and I have not finished it.
 

Cerulean_skylark

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,408
Geez people are right that smash topic is like beating a head against a wall. Looks like Xeno is another series that I like where I will have to avoid going into topics on because of the fanbase. Apparently even pointing out as some one that likes the series that people are justified in getting turned off of the series for its problematic elements is a controversial statementand. Oh and also I view the game as the Antichrist and I have not finished it.

every xenoblade thread is like that, most of the time they won't even listen to the opinions of people who played the game and still think it's bad. Since "those who play it will realize it's not that bad" is the only argument. That and "dahlia was drawn by a woman"
 
OP
OP
Persephone

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,408
"the bunny girl with the absolute bahonking badonkadonks was designed by a woman so it's not sexist actuallyyyyyyy" is not the cutting couterargument u think it is i promise
 

Kenzo

alt account
Banned
Oct 9, 2020
708
Tsushima
Thoughts on Sojurn from Overwatch 2?
It looks like a majority of her body is augmented but if so why did her robot legs and ass become "thicc"?
tspcyvekxii61.png
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,407
The English Wilderness
every xenoblade thread is like that, most of the time they won't even listen to the opinions of people who played the game and still think it's bad. Since "those who play it will realize it's not that bad" is the only argument. That and "dahlia was drawn by a woman"
I get the feeling XB2 attracted a specific breed of hyper-insecure weeb who felt massively validated when the game sold better than the previous two instalments. You don't see such a fervent defence force for, say, Xenoblade X (people just seem to argue about the soundtrack!).
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,510
It almost feels like that with Xenoblade and I guess Xenoblade X, they wanted to stay conservative enough because they were now under Nintendo, but then went full masks off with the designs and stuff since the series was doing good enough and they were cemented.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,549
Yeah, sometimes using google to find a post that I replied to (because Era's search is legendarily awful) I've come across posts on kiwifarms or whatever shithole they frequent, from people that I've never even interacted with, yet are somehow obsessed enough with me, that I seem to be a household name for them. I wear that sort of weird recognition, living on bigot's heads rent-free, as a minor badge of honor. :)

There was literally an entire subreddit dedicated to shitting on me while I was a mod because I was mean to Xenoblade 2 for its character designs.
 

GrandeRampel

Member
Jul 22, 2020
209
Bari, Italy
Thoughts on Sojurn from Overwatch 2?
It looks like a majority of her body is augmented but if so why did her robot legs and ass become "thicc"?
tspcyvekxii61.png

Oh shiiz! Blizzard finally added a black woman? About time. Now the roster is perfect (well actually, I guess a trans person would be cool too), for all I care they can go crazy and add a bunch more animals and robots. They are some of my faves to play as.

I like her legs, they are so sci-fi and cool. And it probably make sense she would have big robotic legs. The bigger they are the more space to put boosters and weapons in. As for her butt... I have no clue, other than Blizzard really being unable to help themselves when it comes to butts.
 
OP
OP
Persephone

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,408
still have fond memories of that one dude on uhh some forum whose name I can't remember made up almost entirely of banned GAFers saying I was such an irritating cunt I should be called thrush. i still have the screenshot saved somewhere. maybe I should print it out and frame it.
 

apathetic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,723
It almost feels like that with Xenoblade and I guess Xenoblade X, they wanted to stay conservative enough because they were now under Nintendo, but then went full masks off with the designs and stuff since the series was doing good enough and they were cemented.

As a fan of the Xeno series in general I'd like to believe it was more them deciding to just go full pandering mode after sliding more in more into it over the years as their game didn't sell as well with older/better characters. It being "rewarded" by the best sales the series has seen has me fearing what's next though.

Of course this is probably self delusion when looking at the problems saga had.
 

Sheldon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,331
Ruhrgebiet, Germany
I get the feeling XB2 attracted a specific breed of hyper-insecure weeb who felt massively validated when the game sold better than the previous two instalments. You don't see such a fervent defence force for, say, Xenoblade X (people just seem to argue about the soundtrack!).

It was the first big RPG on Switch. So a lot of early investor types were looking for something on their first year console to sink a lot of time into. Sinking a lot of time into an RPG breeds attachement to its characters, doubly so with JRPGs.

Like for me Xenoblade Chronicles 2 was an interesting mess I grew fond of. Had it come out at any other time I might have just remembered it as a mess.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,510
As a fan of the Xeno series in general I'd like to believe it was more them deciding to just go full pandering mode after sliding more in more into it over the years as their game didn't sell as well with older/better characters. It being "rewarded" by the best sales the series has seen has me fearing what's next though.

Of course this is probably self delusion when looking at the problems saga had.
XB2 selling by far the best and now even getting the two poster characters in smash with those designs, could be a big greenlight for them and redflag for the next game. They will see the money and just assume so many people love that and will double down even more. Can't even think of a design that would make Pyra look conservative.
 
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Oct 28, 2017
2,026
So she has more top layers?
Euu3fyJVcAA58NX
This outfit took my breath away and I don't even know what it is from or who the character is. And I don't mean "took my breath away" in the good sense. More like because I was busting a gut laughing at the ridiculousness of it. What on earth is going on with this? Is the guitar strap holding up half her pseudo-skirt? Because nothing else is. I wonder what the back looks like, because judging from the front, one of her ass-cheeks is definitely fully exposed. AND somehow they worked the pigeon toes in here too! She makes Genshin Impact's Xinyan character look modest by comparison.