i'd say semantics are important, on this site on this topic far more than any others on this site. semantics can make a big difference the differance between a character puking and dry heaving. And not only that the person i accused, we didn't argue, we didn't get a knuckle drag fight, they understood how I could feel that and are going to be more specific about in the future. that was the end of it and we came to an understanding.
I think Lady Dimitrescu and Tifa are arguable to a degree, but now that you get me thinking about it it's undeniable that they did a lot to make Tifa's classic design more realistic and her outfit more sensible so I'm with you all told.[Hidden content]
It really wasn't and you're out of line here. Butt out.
Sure.
Ellie (Borderlands 2)
Sigrun Engel (Wolfenstein 2: The New Colossus)
Lady Dimitrescu
Hell even Tifa in FF7R is pretty decent (not muscular enough IMO, but that's another topic):
These women all have large breasts, but are nothing like Pyra. It's massively obvious that the "body shaming" accusations are either obtuse at best, or completely disingenuous, for the reasons Persephone and Aerith said in this thread.
Wow, I love both of these. That's definitely exactly what I had in mind when I was thinking of a good faith design. Never even heard of this game before but the premise looks crazy creative.Estrella and Ariadne from Hand of Fate 2 come to mind.
Found this in an old PSD from like a year ago, probably like a quick sketch while I was eating lunch or something.
Tried to do a toned down Smash Pyra for my daily sketch practice. If the proportions seem off, let me say that I intended to replicate them as best as I could, but I think I still understeered. Astonishing.
Still think it's better than pantyhose, though.
I will say this at least in xenoblade 2 the characters who were human weren't sexualizedThat must mean you may have not seen the glory that is Morag:
Not gonna lie, she and Nia are the reason why I have a little bit of hope left for their next game.
I have to side with AnimaRize and Shining Star.
It's not a big deal or anything, and I know it's weird to get defensive of fictional characters but it really is not that hard to tweak the way you speak a little.
There is a slight difference between "she looks like a..." and "she is a..." and it may be semantics but it's still a nice thing to do?
The way you say something is important too, and since the goal is to make people who like XB 2 and are dismissive of its flaws open their eyes a little being careful to make extra sure the criticism doesn't come across as just bashing the character is good.
For all you know, you might be talking to a big fan of Pyra who isn't so far into the Gamer Chud hole that they can't be reasoned with anymore, and you may have just soured their impression of you and made them less receptive to what you are saying, which is the opposite of what you wanted.
Anyway, I just now realized something:
That must mean you may have not seen the glory that is Morag:
Not gonna lie, she and Nia are the reason why I have a little bit of hope left for their next game.
xenoblade.fandom.com
would you feel worse or better that that was a legitimate argument about her before the game launched? there were people who legitimately thought she was a man do to how she was dressed and the fact her JP VA played male characters who kind of had a feminine look to themMorag's fantastic but they pull the "haha wow I thought you were a guy because you dress like one" thing in a heart to heart with Tora, Rex and Zeke.
Rub-a-Dub-Dub
Rub-a-Dub-Dub is a Heart-to-Heart in Xenoblade Chronicles 2. It is located above Jakolo's Inn next to one of the local hot springs. Tora "Ahh, how Tora missed hot springs... This bring back memories of first time we stay in Mor Ardain." Rex "The water here is great, right? It just melted the...
There had to be a caveat somewhere of course.
I mean.... you talk about the importance of semantics, but then completely ignore the rest of my argument.
Personally speaking, I am one to use more precise/descriptive wording such as 'she looks like...' -- I just think, in this specific case, that calling what was said misogynistic is too harsh. It was, at most, rude depending on who you were talking to (eg, like your example, to a Pyra fan). Again, it'd be a completely different case if they said something that was belittling to sex workers or reflected negatively against real women (like how 'slut' is often used as an insult, for example), but imo 'sex doll' against a fictional character is neither.
Yea, and this also happened in the Mass Effect thread. People straight up called (and got banned) people puritanical for criticizing the ass shots. Pretty sure it also happened in the RE8 thread. Calling anyone a puritan for criticism is straightup gaslighting.
To be fair, I have seen at least some posts along the lines of "I've only seen boobs that big in porno," which really does cross the line straight to bodyshaming. Like it's crossed my mind at least once that these sorts of discussions must be doubly-exhausting for well-endowed women.
Yea, but that doesn't even relate to what I said for one. That has been discussed though, and saying that specifically is wrong. That doesn't just discount every valid criticism.
what do you want me to say in response to your argument, that stating a character is a sex doll not looks like one in fact turns that character into a object. that's all it is that could say in response, that you take a character and reduce her to the same thing we are trying to argue against doing, yes she isn't real but this is about characters who aren't and the fact these female characters are continually objectified sexuallized. that saying these characters are object like sexdolls what are we doing. we are supposed to be better than that.
Correct. The actual bad faith arguments came from the dudes that came into quote the one post from a woman that actually dealt with emotional stress related to this stuff, and then use that purely just to attack people that were in any way criticizing Pyra's design.
Hahaha, nailed it.
Only reason her design is crappy is cause it to attract a certain audience and it run by people with simple views of women and with less diverse perspective (or at least not including certain perspectives given that many of the game have a lot of talk about).Found this in an old PSD from like a year ago, probably like a quick sketch while I was eating lunch or something.
Like yeah, it's not hard to find alternative solutions to the dumb design choices that went into Pyra.
There were maybe a couple posts in the thread that said something along "I've only seen breasts that big in porn" or something, which is the wrong way to really criticize these designs. Someone actually posted that some things like that have been stressful for her irl, but then that one post kept getting quoted by a bunch of dudes to be used just to go after people criticizing the designs. They were essentially using a woman's serious post as a greenlight to start gaslighting.
I actually agree with you that using more sensitive language and not deriding feminine characteristics for being a certain way is the best way to go! I think we're on the same page there, and I was more addressing the bad faith arguments that warp that notion beyond empathy and into a weapon against people who are criticizing Pyra, a designed character, for being created to titillate. I think your point is great and that people can always afford to be a bit more sensitive of where women are coming from when feminine traits like that are being discussed. There's just a clear line between that and the people who use that notion to claim critical people are being anti-feminine. It got to a really nasty extreme when a woman who expressed discomfort about the breast size comments then had that post used as a cudgel against other women. I really don't blame you if you don't want to go into the Smash announcement thread and see it for yourself, because honestly the sentiment in there is still brutal to wade through.
may apologize for what i accused you of earlier if you don't mind, i understand that weren't trying to be that but the way the comment was worded it made it fel that way. I feel you and are on the same page when it comes to the wording of things as well now, so again i apologize
This is actually a great point. I personally like 2B well enough and Automata is my favorite game of all time, but I certainly would not begrudge anyone calling her a sex doll even if it is rather harsh language. She obviously is more than that, and I think her story within the game is fantastic, but I'm also not blind to the fact that she was designed with sexual appeal in mind first and foremost. Sometimes I feel bad when people talk really harshly about this game here, and my opinions on its sexualization does not always 100% line up with all of this thread's posters, but I value how her design makes them feel more than I do respecting a fictional character.
gacha games are weird, while certainly sexualize women more i'd there are definitely ones that have a few sexualized male designs not many but some, like i know fgo may be a bad example for a lot of things but
that's just wow, i mean just wow. i honestly don't understand how someone could come up with that, not only the thong thing but the completely open top with the exposed bra as well.
I'm now having flashbacks to 15 year old arguments where people tried to argue it wasn't a bad design because "she's hot imo" and "bububububut Superman"
Lets be real and say that nobody would be okay with Tifa's design if it was introduced today compared to when it came out 20 or so years ago.
I hate to say this but that is most likely the truth about character design in japan. They probably don't see it as wrong and will likely not change. And it doesn't help that the west probably encourages it with things like perving over characters like lady d, they likely won't change. And there is the possibility game development is like manga over there were there are games designed strictly for men and ones designed strictly for women.
