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Oct 25, 2017
26,908
I agree? I'd throw out uncharted 2 Elaina as being very good too, though I do think she's a lot weaker in 3 and 4 where they kind of relegate her to being some kind of sitcom wife holding back the crew from having fun(even though she is 100% in the right in both games)

I think maybe this was a misquote though, quoting me I mean, since my post was about how bad the metal gear characters are.

edit: I was posting before you edited in that you had read wrong, just editing this to acknowledge your edit.
I don't even read Elena as holding the crew back from having fun, Nate just really did not realize how much fun Elena had with that shit. 4's really about finding a happy compromise in their life (4 also did a good job exploring how Nate is driven by the same thing his mother was). I also probably quoted you because I like getting your input on things.
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,365
I don't even read Elena as holding the crew back from having fun, Nate just really did not realize how much fun Elena had with that shit. 4's really about finding a happy compromise in their life (4 also did a good job exploring how Nate is driven by the same thing his mother was). I also probably quoted you because I like getting your input on things.

Yeah 4's Elena probably isn't so bad, my opinion was just negatively coloured from 3, which I remember as being really rough in a lot of ways.
I hated how they had no clue what to do with a Nathan Elena story other than "break them up between games AGAIN, have them get back together AGAIN." And there's definitely some scenes where Elaina is explicitly trying to get nathan to abandon the adventure. She was in the right obviously, its super dangerous and Nathan shouldn't do it. It should have been fine, but I don't think 3 was very well written across the board and so it kind of didn't work right.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,908
Yeah 4's Elena probably isn't so bad, my opinion was just negatively coloured from 3, which I remember as being really rough in a lot of ways.
I hated how they had no clue what to do with a Nathan Elena story other than "break them up between games AGAIN, have them get back together AGAIN." And there's definitely some scenes where Elaina is explicitly trying to get nathan to abandon the adventure. She was in the right obviously, its super dangerous and Nathan shouldn't do it. It should have been fine, but I don't think 3 was very well written across the board and so it kind of didn't work right.
Yeah narratively 3's the weakest game, it's only strong from a Sully standpoint. Elena's usually in the right though, but she's supportive in trying to assure that nobody dies.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
I'm currently replaying Uncharted 1 right now. I think they're written okay, but UC1 is where ND is most thoughtless in the story. The first cutscene basically has the enemies introduced with a rape threat to Elaine (drake says they only kill male prisoners) and Elena...well, she's charming like ND tends to write all characters, but she's also very...er, archtypical might be the right word?

The problem with interpretting the Uncharted games, especially 1-3, is that they super heavily lean on unrealistic, "we're playing an indiana jones movie!" like tropes. So you have really absurd situations where the island is swarming with pirates and mercenaries that are super hyper dangerous...but you also have all the characters basically mugging into the camera about how fun this adventure game is. And Elena plays into that by being super, hyper into making sure she captures everything going on for her job as a reporter, to the point where she just straight up doesn't take the threat of death and pirates and everything all that seriously even though she's basically in a constant firefight with no training. And that be fine except to some extent the game wants you to take it the threats seriously because halfway through Drake, of all people, just wants to escape the island, so Elena has to make up excuses for him to not simply take the boat and take off. Any interpretation of Elena trying to get a news story when her life is at risk characterizes her as simply insane if the threat is taken seriously, and rationale and fun if it's not, and uncharted is like struggling to find a middleground between these two contradictory interpretations that satisfyies them both.

So, if you take the interpretation that this is just a silly adventure, her being super willful to get her story is an act of agency that is in line with this universe, but it only works if you view the threat of the pirate army to be very low risk because otherwise these people are simply insane. And that kind of bleeds into the future games too, where she becomes something of the nagging housewife archtype, where she is 'right' because trying to find whatever treasure while an armed militia or supernatural monsters are trying to get it as well and will kill for it is insane and stupidly risky....but she's also wrong because since when are armed militias and supernatural monsters an actual threat to Drake or, for that matter, even her?


That said, to be fair, I think Uncharted 4 had the best Elena, because while it initially set her up as the nagging housewife for half the game, their reconciliation in the second half is just fantastic. ND does love stories pretty well and her and Drake basically falling back in love doing one last adventure is just beautiful to watch.
 
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Jan 11, 2018
9,848
Like...just draw it, dude, lol. This whole 'female characters must always have ultra-flawless features' thing is dumb. It's not even readily visible unless you take off her socks. What's the hangup?

"We can't give female characters imperfections, but we sure as hell can and will sexualise minors".

Amy and Talim are like 12-14 years old and you can put them in Ivy's harness. I wish a journalist would dare to bring this up in an interview with one of these developers someday.
 
Aug 26, 2018
3,729
日本
"We can't give female characters imperfections, but we sure as hell can and will sexualise minors".

Amy and Talim are like 12-14 years old and you can put them in Ivy's harness. I wish a journalist would dare to bring this up in an interview with one of these developers someday.
It would be hilarious if a prompt came up with "Can't let you do that, Dave" whenever you tried to put something too fetish-y on them. But honestly, their default attire is already dodgy for an early teen. I fully admit to not knowing what the dress standards were for late 16th-century France and Phillipines, but uh...
amysc6art1-jpg.59351
talsc6art1-jpg.50637

I'm wavering on whether or not Amy's is "that bad", but it's certainly an adult outfit regardless.
 
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ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,489
I'm hoping Sarah gets a more expanded role in Days Gone 2. She ends up being damsel, but she also got to be part of some action and cleverly poisoned the "last boss" dude.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
She's never a nagging housewife though...?
Going to agree here.

I love Elena in the Uncharted series, despite narrative missteps and inconsistencies.
Just to be clear, I'm talking about archtype, not whether the fact that she is literally nagging.

Like, Uncharted 4's premise being "Nate, you're done with adventuring, you need to live a house life with me now" and Nate wanting to go on one last adventure because he's unfulfilled by his domestic life is the driving motivation here. In that sense, Elena is framed as being the fun-stopper within the story. She's reframed later on and makes it clear that her problem is being lied to rather than a complete aversion for more adventuring, but, like I said, archtype.
 

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,268
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
Just to be clear, I'm talking about archtype, not whether the fact that she is literally nagging.

Like, Uncharted 4's premise being "Nate, you're done with adventuring, you need to live a house life with me now" and Nate wanting to go on one last adventure because he's unfulfilled by his domestic life is the driving motivation here. In that sense, Elena is framed as being the fun-stopper within the story. She's reframed later on and makes it clear that her problem is being lied to rather than a complete aversion for more adventuring, but, like I said, archtype.
No, that is a misrepresentation of Elena at the beginning of Uncharted 4. It's the opposite, she encourages him to take a somewhat risky job offer only for him to go behind her back and go on a full blown adventure with Sam. At most she can be reduced to being the supportive wife. It's Nathan that tries to deceive himself and what his wants really are. That's his biggest character flaw throughout the whole series, honesty with himself and those he cares about.
 
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Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
No, that is a misrepresentation of Elena at the beginning of Uncharted 4. It's the opposite, she encourages him to take a somewhat risky job offer only for him to go behind her back and go on a full blown adventure with Sam. At most she can be reduced to being the supportive wife.
I haven't played in a long while, so I could be wrong, but it was still very small time compared to the crazy shit they used to do, right? Like, going from a 2/10 danger zone to a 4/10, but drake wants the full blown 11/10 adventure with sam, right?

And is it established that Elena is against the full blown adventure? Because if not, did drake put his marriage in jeapardy just by assuming Elena would object to the 11/10 adventure that she ended up joining and enjoying?
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
Sapphicine is correct. You're really remembering Elena wrong, dude. Nate is the one finding excuses to say he's done and Elena is the one going "c'mon, I know you want this, go ahead". She's later mad at him because he lied to her, not because he went on an adventure against his will.
 

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,268
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
I haven't played in a long while, so I could be wrong, but it was still very small time compared to the crazy shit they used to do, right? Like, going from a 2/10 danger zone to a 4/10, but drake wants the full blown 11/10 adventure with sam, right?

And is it established that Elena is against the full blown adventure? Because if not, did drake put his marriage in jeapardy just by assuming Elena would object to the 11/10 adventure that she ended up joining and enjoying?
He doesn't consult her at all, Sam manipulates him to take off on the adventure immediately and Nathan, being the very flawed man that he is, doesn't tell Elena anything. He maybe has a conversation with her on the phone at some point and lies. I don't remember.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
Hm. Fair enough, I'm misremembering.

But if that is the case, then she's still being framed as the archtype, if not by the story, then by Sam who framing the situation for Drake, the character whose perspective we're embodying. The player is made to think she's the nagging housewife archtype as set up so there can be payoff later on to show she isn't.

But you're right that I am wrong in saying she becomes the nagging housewife when she actually isn't. I am looking forward to replaying UC4 then because jesus christ Drake my boy, I don't care how persuasive Sam is, how do you not know your own wife that bad?
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,051
I can't find the tweet right now but there are people out there who still think Cyberpunk 2077 is gonna be "political" and "sjw" because it has women with colored hair and some maybe androgynous-looking characters. If CDProjekt is trying to avoid pissing off that segment of gamers, there's really no way they can.

I don't even know how people like that square "colored hair" with blue-haired anime characters.
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,365
Maybe uncharted 3 is just massively fucking with our memories of elena to the point of making us remember uncharted 4 wrong. I played 2 so many times back in the day but couldn't really play 3 or 4 more than once.

I can't find the tweet right now but there are people out there who still think Cyberpunk 2077 is gonna be "political" and "sjw" because it has women with colored hair and some maybe androgynous-looking characters. If CDProjekt is trying to avoid pissing off that segment of gamers, there's really no way they can.

I don't even know how people like that square "colored hair" with blue-haired anime characters.

It is so strange that a certain group of people have collectively decided 'dying your hair a fun colour' to be a political statement marking someone an 'SJW'. Like... I know some real conservative women with neon hair colours where I live.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,624
He doesn't consult her at all, Sam manipulates him to take off on the adventure immediately and Nathan, being the very flawed man that he is, doesn't tell Elena anything. He maybe has a conversation with her on the phone at some point and lies. I don't remember.

Yeah he talks to her on the phone and lies about what they're doing. Then the night after that she shows up after suspecting something wasn't right.
 

Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,038
Hm. Fair enough, I'm misremembering.

But if that is the case, then she's still being framed as the archtype, if not by the story, then by Sam who framing the situation for Drake, the character whose perspective we're embodying. The player is made to think she's the nagging housewife archtype as set up so there can be payoff later on to show she isn't.

But you're right that I am wrong in saying she becomes the nagging housewife when she actually isn't. I am looking forward to replaying UC4 then because jesus christ Drake my boy, I don't care how persuasive Sam is, how do you not know your own wife that bad?
I never took it like Nathan being afraid that Elena wouldn't let him to go on an adventure. The problem is Nathan is too prideful to open up and say what he's actually feeling. He repeats that he's "done with it" numerous times and telling the truth to Elena would be admitting that he's not actually "done with it".

And then there's the whole "I have a brother I never told you about" thing as if he's embarrassed of his past.
 
Sep 10, 2020
668
I just wanted to say, as a young white cishet man, this thread has been really impactful. It's driven me to examine the media I consume, and how that reflects in my perception of women, the LGBTQ+ community, and people of color. Thanks, I'm proud to do my best as an active ally going forward!
 

Bloodarmz

Member
Jul 11, 2018
705
In regards to Uncharted 4:
In the beginning, Nate lies to Elena about getting a job in Malaysia, since he has now gone legit and is involved in salvaging underwater wrecks. In reality he goes to Paris to rob an auction. Elena is angry later on not just at the fact he lied to her about where he was going, but also that he never told her about his brother.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,041
Having never played an Uncharted beyond a bit of the first from the collection (the dated gameplay didn't grip me) - is it worth another visit? Can you approach Lost Legacy on its own as well - from a narrative standpoint? Is one popular series that always went over my head, similar to TLOU where the Capitol Building section turned off of a few times before pushing through (and so thankful I did).

Don't hear too too much about it these days but in the context of this thread it has me curious again.
 
OP
OP
Persephone

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,408
Having never played an Uncharted beyond a bit of the first from the collection (the dated gameplay didn't grip me) - is it worth another visit? Can you approach Lost Legacy on its own as well - from a narrative standpoint? Is one popular series that always went over my head, similar to TLOU where the Capitol Building section turned off of a few times before pushing through (and so thankful I did).

Don't hear too too much about it these days but in the context of this thread it has me curious again.

hot take but 4 sucks. 1-3 and lost legacy are awesome. especially lost legacy bc chloe and nadine are awesome and gay, despite the problems with the voice actors. you don't need to play the main games to enjoy and understand lost legacy so tbh, i'd dive right into that one.
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,365
Having never played an Uncharted beyond a bit of the first from the collection (the dated gameplay didn't grip me) - is it worth another visit? Can you approach Lost Legacy on its own as well - from a narrative standpoint? Is one popular series that always went over my head, similar to TLOU where the Capitol Building section turned off of a few times before pushing through (and so thankful I did).

Don't hear too too much about it these days but in the context of this thread it has me curious again.

I'd offer the more tepid recommendation than Persephone and say that 3 is also bad, but 1 and 2 are really good. 1 will probably feel a bit dated by now but its still a good time, 2 is one of the best cover shooters of the last generation and has a fun story with really good characters.


Lost legacy doesn't really need 4.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,489
Yea Elena was great in 4. Nate was the one that fucked up. They both are a little inconsistent throughout the series though in terms of how they are.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,041
hot take but 4 sucks. 1-3 and lost legacy are awesome. especially lost legacy bc chloe and nadine are awesome and gay, despite the problems with the voice actors. you don't need to play the main games to enjoy and understand lost legacy so tbh, i'd dive right into that one.
I'd offer the more tepid recommendation than Persephone and say that 3 is also bad, but 1 and 2 are really good. 1 will probably feel a bit dated by now but its still a good time, 2 is one of the best cover shooters of the last generation and has a fun story with really good characters.


Lost legacy doesn't really need 4.
Ah wonderful, thank you both. I'll definitely give Lost Legacy a run before next gen and if there's time, the collection another shot.

Wondering what new characters and games we'll come to love and appreciate next gen. With apprehension being a mainstay I'm kind of allowing some hope to bubble up, at least for a brief moment haha.
 

Hresvelg

Member
Feb 22, 2020
110
Hyrule Warriors revealed Impa as a playable character and... I was foolishly expecting they would go this route...
latest

... instead of this literal Paya resin lol
hyrule_warriors_age_of_calamity_impa_art-768x432.jpg


Yeah, yeah, I know, could be worse, but I'm just so tired of female characters always having to have baby face and look nonthreatening lol
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,063
I refuse to accept the Hyrule Warriors characters as cannon anyways. Characters like "Linkle" are just generic anime that could be in basically any JRPG. Usually Zelda does a good job of avoiding that type of design for the mainline titles.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
Hyrule Warriors revealed Impa as a playable character and... I was foolishly expecting they would go this route...
latest

... instead of this literal Paya resin lol
hyrule_warriors_age_of_calamity_impa_art-768x432.jpg


Yeah, yeah, I know, could be worse, but I'm just so tired of female characters always having to have baby face and look nonthreatening lol

Later in the game it appears she's pretty ready to throw-down compared to Paya, at least

outputb664b3eb3e940a22.gif
 

mawilite

Member
Jul 18, 2020
51
She's also been whitewashed, which isn't surprising. Old Impa from Botw isn't super dark-skinned, but you can tell she's slightly darker and at the very least not the same default bright skinned hue that the majority of other characters in the game are. In that gif posted above, she's the same skin tone as Link and Zelda.

ZbAxHFv.png

(Googled up a screenshot, compare to Paya right in front of her.)

It's a cute design and I don't dislike it in isolation, but it's a bit disappointing that she's just a generic Paya copy.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
I refuse to accept the Hyrule Warriors characters as cannon anyways. Characters like "Linkle" are just generic anime that could be in basically any JRPG. Usually Zelda does a good job of avoiding that type of design for the mainline titles.

FWIW it sounds like the Breath of the Wild team has played a major role in the storyline of Age of Calamity so I doubt anything in it will be comparable to Lana and Cia. I'd even argue Young Impa is less anime than Paya, considering the latter was named after a birthmark on her butt and defined by her crush on Link.
 

HockeyBird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,585
I think Impa in Breath of the Wild is 120 years old so Impa in Hyrule Warriors would be 20, making her not that much older than Link and Zelda. So I think it makes sense for this incarnation to look younger than previous versions.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,296
Houston, TX
I wish KT had more of a say with regards to how Impa was handled, especially if they were mostly responsible for how Impa ended up being in the first HW game.
 

mawilite

Member
Jul 18, 2020
51
I wish KT had more of a say with regards to how Impa was handled, especially if they were mostly responsible for how Impa ended up being in the first HW game.
I don't personally give KT any particular credit for HW Impa, design and story-wise she's just a combination of OoT and SS Impa. HW Impa is nice for sure, but she's just based on the particular archetype of Impa that has been prominent in 3D Zelda, and design-wise she's just a brighter skinned SS Impa with a bit of OoT Impa's wardrobe, they didn't create her out of nowhere. The Zelda team absolutely dropped the ball with younger BotW Impa, but I don't personally imagine designers at KT are unhappy with it.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,296
Houston, TX
I don't personally give KT any particular credit for HW Impa, design and story-wise she's just a combination of OoT and SS Impa. HW Impa is nice for sure, but she's just based on the particular archetype of Impa that has been prominent in 3D Zelda, and design-wise she's just a brighter skinned SS Impa with a bit of OoT Impa's wardrobe, they didn't create her out of nowhere. The Zelda team absolutely dropped the ball with younger BotW Impa, but I don't personally imagine designers at KT are unhappy with it.
Fair point on all fronts. And yeah, the Zelda team definitely could have done better with Young Impa's design & personality.

I guess what made HW1 Impa great was the fact that it was basically OoT & SS Impa thrown in a blender.
 

SpankyDoodle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,082
I refuse to accept the Hyrule Warriors characters as cannon anyways. Characters like "Linkle" are just generic anime that could be in basically any JRPG. Usually Zelda does a good job of avoiding that type of design for the mainline titles.
Hyrule Warriors is explicitly non-canon though, while Age of Calamity is explicitly canon. AoC isn't a sequel to HW, it's a prequel to BotW.
 

SpankyDoodle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,082
I think they're specifically referring to the first game.
The comment came after the new Hyrule Warriors version of Impa was revealed while giving other new characters created for the previous Warriors game as other examples so I dunno. Maybe! They'll have to clarify if they want to. If they did then my apologies for misunderstanding!
 

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,268
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
hot take but 4 sucks. 1-3 and lost legacy are awesome. especially lost legacy bc chloe and nadine are awesome and gay, despite the problems with the voice actors. you don't need to play the main games to enjoy and understand lost legacy so tbh, i'd dive right into that one.
I need to replay 4 to reassess but 3 is the weakest link. I'd say 1 is but it introduces Elena and is essential.

I've slept on The Lost Legacy for too long. T_T
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,365
Problems with 3: how hackey it felt to break nathan and elena up between games again, for them to get back together at the end again. Its a bad retread of 2 that retroactively ruins the ending of 2 to some extent. The mystery/treasure story is nonsense, and also that one guy literally walks into a dead end and disappears but he isn't remotely supernatural and it is never explained.

Gameplay wise, it plays the worst, I genuinely believe worse than the first game. They made this extremely questionable decision of binding the melee button to the dodge button, and on high difficulty you could frequently run into this situation: An armored enemy with a shotgun is rounding your cover. If you try to run away he will oneshot kill you with the shotgun. If you try to dive away the game will prioratize the melee instead of the roll, and nathan will slide over and try to melee the enemy. As he is armored, you can not melee him and also just die. If you try to shoot him or stay still, you also die from a oneshot. That kind of situation doesn't happen in any of the other uncharted games, because the controls make sense in the rest of them. There was no way to rebind the dodge button when 3 came out. There probably still isn't, but maybe they fixed it in the ps4 rerelease I don't know?


I replayed through 1 and 2 shortly before 3 came out, it wasn't just favourable nostalgia goggles making me look at 1 better than it was. That game, for all its bad aging, is still a much better experience than 3.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
Uncharted 1 is honestly super dated now. It's rough to play
I'm playing it now and yes....but also surprisingly no in some places.

Throwing grenades is the absolute worst because they removed the sixaxis aiming (which is the one good thing sixaxis brought to the table) and it's just a shit show. It's also very...well, you know how ND is able to polish environments so that you see very little asset reuse? That's not quite here yet, so UC1 feels gamey in a way, Uncharted 4/LL/LoU2 don't.

But also, there are some places where I am just stunned by graphics, even all these years later. Mostly the vista's which are age the best since they're far away, but still, the lush jungle we're in can just be beautiful at points.

And the story is hokey and...well, uncharted, with the problems I laid out earlier with it struggling between two incompatible interpretations of danger, but it's still charming af. All the fundamentals of what makes ND great storytellers are here.


Also, Last of Us 2 is still somehow affecting me and now I play uncharted differently. Before, I used to basically use my large gun whenever possible, only switching to my side arm when I absolutely needed to. Now, I am using pistols almost all the time because headshotting in Last of Us 2's was so good and satisfying that I now can't do anything else in any other game. It's very wierd and I can't explain it, but I straight up do not want to spray and pray with AK47's like I used to even though that's the style of the game. Drake is not a sharp shooter, but he is when I'm playing him.
 
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Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
I do hope older Pyra if she's playable takes cues from the concept art

unknown.png


Punk Rockstar Ninja would be really fun.