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Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."
- Thread starter Persephone
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I tend to try to split a character in half. I think Velvet Crowe is a well written character that's designed like shit for example.
What I'm about to say doesn't actually apply to Nier, as that was all yoko's vision, but I think its worth saying as a more general point:
I don't think that's fair. Games are made by lots of people, in lots of different roles. A writer could write a fantastic, beautifully handled character. And then a high up person in the company can come along and say "yeah but she should show more skin it'll sell games."
I don't think that's fair. Games are made by lots of people, in lots of different roles. A writer could write a fantastic, beautifully handled character. And then a high up person in the company can come along and say "yeah but she should show more skin it'll sell games."
I guess. I can't make that distinction personally. Like people say the characters in xenoblade 2 are amazing regardless of their desigsn, but I just see their designs and some clips of cringey waifu anime trope stuff.
As a big fan of lots of Japanese games (others too, but predominantly J-games...) it sadly means the odds of me playing a game with 100% righteous design philosophy also probably means I won't be playing much...
But as an artist myself I try to impart my own principles into what I work on. And I've made exceptions to shelve a game if it does bother me enough.
I mean, I see your TLOU2 avatar, and honestly...a game like that is so rare that it's more the exception to the rule (and by god if I don't love it for that and so much more). It's fortunate this topic is getting discussed more and more, both at large, but definitely serves as a hot topic for video games; but change is sometimes more slow than you'd always like (and it certainly seems some developers are more conscientious of it than others at this present time). It'll get better.
Just pretend a game you genuinely loved had a worse director imposing gross 'sexy outfits' and shit on the art team. But everything else about that game's story and characterization, the stuff you had loved, stayed the same right?
Well it's honestly the main reasons I don't like jrpgs or tangential anime style games. The tropes, designs, etc. Maybe if they made some that were like old anime, like cowboy bebop or something.
It's hard for me to say because I specifically get into games that don't do that stuff. It's too hard for me to imagine TLOU or something having it.
Sure, but you can still imagine that Halley Gross wouldn't suddenly become a bad writer if she worked for a company that forced pervy outfits on characters.
Take this with some amount of salt since the source is a Japanese interview with Taro, and I'm going off a fandom wiki summary. Source https://getnews.jp/archives/60012/gate
So apparently Yoko Taro made Kaine intersex (honestly there's nothing to be gained by treating it as a spoiler) as a result of women on the team asking for a "male heroine." Her tasteless outfit was the result of the pervy character designer being told to draw a woman that had the left side of her body covered and was feminine. All the initial designs had her in lingerie which "shocked" Taro but he liked the "contrast" and pushed for the final design, despite other people on the team having hesitation.
So apparently Yoko Taro made Kaine intersex (honestly there's nothing to be gained by treating it as a spoiler) as a result of women on the team asking for a "male heroine." Her tasteless outfit was the result of the pervy character designer being told to draw a woman that had the left side of her body covered and was feminine. All the initial designs had her in lingerie which "shocked" Taro but he liked the "contrast" and pushed for the final design, despite other people on the team having hesitation.
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Well that's true. But again, it's just why I like some types of games, and don't like others. It's too bad because there are some that interest me in a few ways, like Persona, but it's intrenched in all the anime stuff.
For sure. I liked persona 4 a lot, and its the least offensive of the modern persona games in that anime way, but I still don't really recommend the game very casually because of some rough gross stuff in it.
To be clear, I was never trying to argue that you have to give these games a chance when people say stuff like that. Just putting some perspective on how they could be right when they say the character is good anyway.
Yosuke's dialogue is a fucking mess. I watched a Bi woman play it and she wanted to yeet that dude into the sun. And I think regarding how it uses Naoto to push some sort of gender role norm narrative is a harsh misfire and I like Naoto.
The way Yosuke's whole character would have clicked if they didn't cut that love confession at the end of his Social Link...
It's from the original concept art for her. The final character model, thankfully, has a longer dress which they don't have artwork of.
Well, I did make it pretty clear I only read about the story(I'm resigned to the possibility of never playing his stuff again). Also, you can have surface level female empowerment and still be highly problematic, Hollywood directors do it all the time. Plus, I've heard enough impressions that he still visually pervs on the women in Death Stranding, just not as egregiously
Anyway, it seems to me he suppresses his overt misogyny and turns attention more to lamentations about the modern worlds lack of interest in baby making and in effect, less of a willingness to fundamentally define themselves by it.
My first red flag based on what I read was about human extinction and how he throws queer and especially asexual people under the bus for it. A woman's reproductive function is certainly fixated on with at least one character and the ending resolution for Fragile had me rolling my eyes at the subtextual condescension.
Perhaps my view is a bit skewed but it was enough to turn me off from playing bc I don't trust Kojima to commentate on things that, off the top of my head, George Miller can do a better(though certainly not perfect) job of in Fury Road with less time wasted.
EDIT
And just in case male nudity is brought up, here's a comment from Heather Alexandra's interesting review of the game
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Yeah. Yosuke is the worst.
Naoto, I don't know. I understand how bad things look if you read Naoto as trans. I do think I get what they were trying to go for with Naoto though. The writers intended her to be a cis woman. (Or more accurately, the writers probably didn't even consider that trans women existed when writing Naoto, which is unfortunate) The idea that she wants to enter an extremely male dominated field and understands how much better society would treat her and how much easier a time she would have had with her career had she been a boy is a relevant and relatable issue for cis women.
That was my interpretation anyway, Naoto's story definitely could have been handled in a better way that didn't rub so close to mishandling a trans story of course though.
I'd never heard about this before, and holy shit yeah. A lot of Yosuke comes together in a very meaningful way if that had happened. He's homophobic because he is so insecure in his own sexuality. That would have really done a lot for the character.
God...fucking why.
I read Naoto as a woman and I get all of that. I just don't like how Naoto would be better if she acquired more feminine characteristics or started dressing more feminine. She doesn't need to do that stuff to be accepted. I accepted Naoto because she didn't want to be more feminine. She was cool for being herself.
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Yeah. I think its unfortunate that in the christmas event the game gives you the option to get her to come dressed in feminine clothing. She should have just come dressed as herself. "as a christmas gift to me, be less comfortable in who you are".
I do really appreciate how in most of the day to day scenes the group treats her normally though, just as she is. There are a few "special events" that are pretty gross unfortunately though.
I'm sure you didn't mean anything by this, but trans women are regular women too.
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Naoto from Persona 4 (vanilla anyway) is like a Mulan type of situation where both cis and trans people relate to the character. (Of course Naoto has way more subtext that, intentionally or not, supports the trans man interpretation of the character.)
I liked Naoto a lot and that was before I even realized I was a trans woman. 😅
I liked Naoto a lot and that was before I even realized I was a trans woman. 😅
Naoto's so pretty without all that nonsense to. It's like the concept of attractive androgyny was lost on the developers.
I really didn't, I tried to edit my original statement as best as I could.
Yeah the character model isn't too bad but that artwork is super-effin-yikes, I hadn't seen it before. I checked and she's 7-12 years old throughout the game (Replicant, they aged her up by a few years for Gestalt, still pedo but I guess ever-so-slightly less despicable such!). Like, who in the actual living fuck thought drawing that artwork & then framing her that way (focus on her body with face cropped out) in the trailer was a good idea?
Ok and good to know, this is something I've been trying to be better with. I try to be more educated regarding the nuances of it, I just still occasionally find myself getting caught out by it, it's just a very layered topic.
i still haven't been able to bring myself to play golden. I played the ps2 classics downloadable version on ps3 back in the day and really enjoyed my time, its a very special game, It holds a lot of nostalgia and emotional significance for me. I don't want to go back and mar it with bullshit added in a special edition release.
I think its pretty telling how quickly I was willing to play Persona 5 Royale by comparison, because there was nothing I cared enough about ruining there. I was just like "oh good, a longer version of that game that was already way too long, but I'm in quarantine lets go."
Yeah, that makes sense.
I think its pretty telling how quickly I was willing to play Persona 5 Royale by comparison, because there was nothing I cared enough about ruining there. I was just like "oh good, a longer version of that game that was already way too long, but I'm in quarantine lets go."
Yeah, that makes sense.
Every Saturday I pretty much watch a furry trans virtual Twitch streamer play SMT IV, she's a lot more receptive of that game than the Persona games.
I'm in no way defending what they did. That trailer killed my mood while watching the stream. "Did they really just do that?" I just read about Yonah being younger in Replicant, which makes her post-timeskip design creepier. In Gestalt it's still a bit of a stretch to say she even looks 15.
This was me back in April. I had no intention of touching Persona 5 Royal because of what I had seen and heard, but it felt (still feels) like the world is falling apart so I was like, "Fuck it."
Didn't mean to insinuate that you defended it. Just further airing my grievances about it. I guess it's just that my image of her is mostly about her and papa Nier's sweet relationship & interactions. So seeing her portrayed like that was just a double whammy of gross.
Speaking of Persona, I really adore Persona 2: Innocent Sin/Eternal Punishment because they don't fall back on the anime cliches that Persona 3 (and onward) use as a crutch. Most of the main cast designs for Eternal Sin still hold up, even in the PSP remake.
At least in-game there is zero sexualization of Yonah, and she's 100% an endearing child character that you can feel genuinely bad for. Helped by the load screens being her diary pages
"Today Popola sent me a new book about a great big tree. I really hope it has a happy ending. There's nothing worse than a sad tree"
"Today Popola sent me a new book about a great big tree. I really hope it has a happy ending. There's nothing worse than a sad tree"
I hope they have a log of the journal entries because, unless the port is a disaster, no one is going to have time to read those on PC. I expect console loading times to be much shorter than the originals to begin with.
I honestly find a lot of this behavior to be way more insidious. Katsura Hashino, Yoko Taro, Hideo Kojima seem to be lauded as these great, progressive directors, but almost everything thing is underlined with a veneer of sexism, racism, and narcissism. "Women can't have male friends." "You'll be sorry for your words and deeds." "I just like girls." But those are the things people hear who want games to get better and have some amount of investment in them. For those who don't, instead we get achievements for staring at a character's ass, rampant fear-mongering of transsexual women and LGBTQ people in general, and a button dedicated to groping women you're "investigating."
What wonderful people the video game playing public deems fit to laud.
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This talk about Soulcalibur VI (clearly not the greatest in terms of female character design, but you know) has a revealing quote from the art director Hideo Yoshie. The translation is super awkward, but understandable.
www.bandainamcostudios.com
Yoshinori Takahashi (Director): "Let me give you an example. Amy has been taught sword skills by Raphael as a self-defense. But it's not just a Raphael's copy. Amy's motions are described differently from Raphael's in details because Animators supposed that Amy would arrange the skills in her own way. And when it comes to a showdown, Amy uses a dynamic technique just like Raphael. However, the way to land isn't same because she is protecting her old wound on her leg caused by an accident. You can see a character's past and relationships through animation of fighting techniques! Isn't that crazy?"
...
Hideo Yoshie: "You just said that Amy has an old wound on her leg, right? I drew it for the first time in the series. To be honest, I've never done it before because I felt uncomfortable drawing a wound on a woman character even if it's described in a setting. But this time, I added the wound clearly because it is an important factor connected with everything including stories and battles. So, if you play this game in the creation mode, one of the best features of SOULCALIBUR, you can find it on her leg."
Like...just draw it, dude, lol. This whole 'female characters must always have ultra-flawless features' thing is dumb. It's not even readily visible unless you take off her socks. What's the hangup?
I feel like I'm so out of the loop all the time because I don't usually play JRPGs and such.
The Making of ‘SOULCALIBUR VI’ (Part 2) | Bandai Namco Studios Inc.
In the Making of ‘SOULCALIBUR VI’ (Part 2), the 20th anniversary of the series, we’d like to introduce what challenges we faced and how we felt about reactions from players. Project Members of ‘SOULCALIBUR VI’ development /en/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/SC6_l1_1.jpg Michinori Ozawa Game Designer...
www.bandainamcostudios.com
Yoshinori Takahashi (Director): "Let me give you an example. Amy has been taught sword skills by Raphael as a self-defense. But it's not just a Raphael's copy. Amy's motions are described differently from Raphael's in details because Animators supposed that Amy would arrange the skills in her own way. And when it comes to a showdown, Amy uses a dynamic technique just like Raphael. However, the way to land isn't same because she is protecting her old wound on her leg caused by an accident. You can see a character's past and relationships through animation of fighting techniques! Isn't that crazy?"
...
Hideo Yoshie: "You just said that Amy has an old wound on her leg, right? I drew it for the first time in the series. To be honest, I've never done it before because I felt uncomfortable drawing a wound on a woman character even if it's described in a setting. But this time, I added the wound clearly because it is an important factor connected with everything including stories and battles. So, if you play this game in the creation mode, one of the best features of SOULCALIBUR, you can find it on her leg."
Like...just draw it, dude, lol. This whole 'female characters must always have ultra-flawless features' thing is dumb. It's not even readily visible unless you take off her socks. What's the hangup?
wut
I feel like I'm so out of the loop all the time because I don't usually play JRPGs and such.
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I wish women in action oriented games had more battle scars. With character creators, I always give the protagonist a facial scar if able.
It's weirder because it's a fighting game where female combatants constantly beat people and get beaten with weapons. Like, these are exactly the kind of people who would get scars.
If I'm not mistaken, it's a "feature" from Snatcher, and old adventure game directed by Hideo Kojima.
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Riiiight, that one. I remember hearing about that game. Not good things.
You also could grope breasts in Policenauts.
Afaik the breast jiggle was censored on PlayStation but it was uncensored on Saturn.
Totally ridiculous.
To be honest I think you're picturing a different game in your head without having played it. The game never references LGBTQ people (which might be a problem in a way), and what you said about people not having babies has nothing to do with patriarchal views on gender roles. Now what the game says about asexual people can be questionable, but we're talking about one paragraph in one email. And while the way he brings up asexual people is clunky it's more of a reflection about the reduced birth rates in Japan.
Also, that source you mentioned was simply an opinion. Personally if you see any scene of Norman Reedus in the shower he's way more sexualized than any female character in the game. I have no idea what you got out of the way Fragile's character was closed, I can't think of anything problematic with it.
It's so weird. That wound is also like, incredibly minor considering fighters in Soul Caliber use a variety of swords up to five feet long. It's barely even visable except in extreme close-up, and considering her outfit and hair are red anyway, it's not like the eye is drawn to a faded scar on the calf compared to the large areas of bright reds elsewhere. But even that made Yoshie balk. Heaven forbid a character have an interesting detail rather than flawless skin. If it's good enough for Sagat to permanently have a reminder of a dragon punch on his chest, it seems so weird to find a faded scar in skin tones on Amy's lower leg, included as a subtle nod to background info, 'uncomfortable' to draw.
Definitely. I'm not sure what the intent was behind labouring the concern over drawing a scar but it ends up as odd at best and creepy at worst. Like the "good guy" trope it just comes off as a facade of care, one that usually comes at the expense of any thought or sincere concern.
Forgive my ignorance on how operations work but:You know who put a massive scar on a prominent female character? Hideo Kojima!
And that is why Kojima is celebrated by gamers. /s
Why would a C-section scar go all the way up to her heart?
Genius writer. He always puts a lot of thought into his characters!!!!!
(5:21 - 6:35)
I always wondered that, too.
The operation took place on a battlefield. So my personal headcanon is, that the ground was shaking from explosions, so the medic had trouble cutting. :P
If I remember right Nadine Ross from Uncharted 4 has visible scars, The Boss in MGS 3 has some scars (I hate what they do to her in marketing post MGS 3 though). I also feel like I'm forgetting someone but can't remember.
Abby, Ellie and Chloe all do a good job of being good women characters. Oh read that wrong. Yeah MGS is a shit show with that. Meryl isn't too bad, Naomi in MGS 1 is fine...she's so horribly written in 4 though that I pretty much separate them into two different characters.
I agree? I'd throw out uncharted 2 Elaina as being very good too, though I do think she's a lot weaker in 3 and 4 where they kind of relegate her to being some kind of sitcom wife holding back the crew from having fun(even though she is 100% in the right in both games)
I think maybe this was a misquote though, quoting me I mean, since my post was about how bad the metal gear characters are.
edit: I was posting before you edited in that you had read wrong, just editing this to acknowledge your edit.