• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,268
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
Interesting development with 13 sentinels


Game not perfect with a few scenes of objectifying shots of female characters and 2 ladies with overly large body parts (one of them with a very tight body suit).

Not sure what to take from this without context. Did the translation team rework a cross dressing guy into someone that is potentially non-binary?
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,365
Does it help that they're naked so they can do photosynthesis like a plant because mechs get hot, so you see its perfectly fine.

Insert that Prozd video here.



I expect the 13 sentinels thread to go about as well as the cammy butt thread or any other thread like that if people bring up this kind of stuff unfortunately. People seem excited for that game, so there will be a lot of apologism.

To be fair, I haven't actually read the thread so maybe I'm being overly pessimistic from past experiences, like the cyberpunk stuff recently.
 
Last edited:

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,268
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
How has that thread been handling criticism of the pervy aspects, are people being reasonable?
It's only 7 pages, mostly people talking about getting (or not receiving) their orders for the game and initial impressions. While I didn't ask the big question, I probed about the pervy aspects of the game out of my own personal interest. No one being an ass.

Edit: Currently asking about the above tweet and that character.
 
Last edited:

AliceAbstract

Member
Oct 27, 2017
61
Not sure what to take from this without context. Did the translation team rework a cross dressing guy into someone that is potentially non-binary?

Speaking purely from a translation standpoint, as I just got to that scene but haven't played enough to comment on the rest of the story/Okino's treatment...the Japanese line can be roughly interpreted a few different ways, including "This way is more convenient for me" (wearing the girl's uniform is motive based) or "This way suits me personally better" (wearing the uniform is Okino's preference.)

I'd tend to assume the translators had access to the whole game and/or production materials when working on it and took that into account when choosing that translation, but If I notice any more lines that strongly indicate whether Okino's just crossdressing or otherwise, I'll try and check back.

Also...
...Okino (as far as we know) comes from a distant future beyond the game's 1985 setting, so having little interest in 1985's take (or lack thereof) on gender identity while making a nod towards modern non-binary terminology makes sense setting-wise, at least.
 

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,268
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
Speaking purely from a translation standpoint, as I just got to that scene but haven't played enough to comment on the rest of the story/Okino's treatment...the Japanese line can be roughly interpreted a few different ways, including "This way is more convenient for me" (wearing the girl's uniform is motive based) or "This way suits me personally better" (wearing the uniform is Okino's preference.)

I'd tend to assume the translators had access to the whole game and/or production materials when working on it and took that into account when choosing that translation, but If I notice any more lines that strongly indicate whether Okino's just crossdressing or otherwise, I'll try and check back.

Also...
...Okino (as far as we know) comes from a distant future beyond the game's 1985 setting, so having little interest in 1985's take (or lack thereof) on gender identity while making a nod towards modern non-binary terminology makes sense setting-wise, at least.
George Kamitani talks about the character in a post-release interview but it's in Japanese and I can only rely on the machine translation. I was thinking of asking someone to translate it. https://dengekionline.com/articles/22615/ (spoilers naturally)
 

Hakunon

Member
Oct 11, 2018
311
George Kamitani talks about the character in a post-release interview but it's in Japanese and I can only rely on the machine translation. I was thinking of asking someone to translate it. https://dengekionline.com/articles/22615/ (spoilers naturally)

Sounds like they just wanted a "quirky" character and went for a crossdressing guy inspired by old manga. Seeing the words BL and bromance also make me think the character is meant to be read sa male rather non-binary. But honestly, it's not the first time a localization superseded the originally questionable intent.
 

AliceAbstract

Member
Oct 27, 2017
61
George Kamitani talks about the character in a post-release interview but it's in Japanese and I can only rely on the machine translation. I was thinking of asking someone to translate it. https://dengekionline.com/articles/22615/ (spoilers naturally)

...Yikes! I could barely make it through the first half of that interview, it sounded so much like a boys locker room....

That said, their comments in the interview lean heavily toward "just crossdressing." (As that's the only word I saw them use.) They do mention of a pair of characters from an 80's gag manga as inspiration for Okino and Hijiyama (at a guess) and mentioning "writing a story of friendship that resembles love."

Kamitani also says that the crossdressing in the prologue was something Okino "had to do / had no choice in / was a necessity" and there were no specific plans on continuing with it or not, but Okino became a surprisingly popular character following the prologue.

Following that, he mentions that he had some concerns about whether he could write a "BL (boy's love) or bromance story" until recalling another favorite 80's manga of his. The interview makes note that said manga is a "slapstick love(?) comedy."

...So, judging by that (and with no knowledge of the two manga he name drops, "Totemo Hijikata-kun" and "Stop!! Hibari-kun!" it's...not looking good...

Well, that was depressing. I don't know how much more I want to go into my personal feelings on this revelation though for the people who may still get something positive out of a death-of-the-author English localized version of Okino.
 

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,268
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
Sounds like they just wanted a "quirky" character and went for a crossdressing guy inspired by old manga. Seeing the words BL and bromance also make me think the character is meant to be read sa male rather non-binary. But honestly, it's not the first time a localization superseded the originally questionable intent.
...Yikes! I could barely make it through the first half of that interview, it sounded so much like a boys locker room....

That said, their comments in the interview lean heavily toward "just crossdressing." (As that's the only word I saw them use.) They do mention of a pair of characters from an 80's gag manga as inspiration for Okino and Hijiyama (at a guess) and mentioning "writing a story of friendship that resembles love."

Kamitani also says that the crossdressing in the prologue was something Okino "had to do / had no choice in / was a necessity" and there were no specific plans on continuing with it or not, but Okino became a surprisingly popular character following the prologue.

Following that, he mentions that he had some concerns about whether he could write a "BL (boy's love) or bromance story" until recalling another favorite 80's manga of his. The interview makes note that said manga is a "slapstick love(?) comedy."

...So, judging by that (and with no knowledge of the two manga he name drops, "Totemo Hijikata-kun" and "Stop!! Hibari-kun!" it's...not looking good...

Well, that was depressing. I don't know how much more I want to go into my personal feelings on this revelation though for the people who may still get something positive out of a death-of-the-author English localized version of Okino.
Thanks for these. I have someone doing a more thorough translation/summary of it for me at the moment.
 
Last edited:

PsionBolt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,299
...Yikes! I could barely make it through the first half of that interview, it sounded so much like a boys locker room....

That said, their comments in the interview lean heavily toward "just crossdressing." (As that's the only word I saw them use.) They do mention of a pair of characters from an 80's gag manga as inspiration for Okino and Hijiyama (at a guess) and mentioning "writing a story of friendship that resembles love."

Kamitani also says that the crossdressing in the prologue was something Okino "had to do / had no choice in / was a necessity" and there were no specific plans on continuing with it or not, but Okino became a surprisingly popular character following the prologue.

Following that, he mentions that he had some concerns about whether he could write a "BL (boy's love) or bromance story" until recalling another favorite 80's manga of his. The interview makes note that said manga is a "slapstick love(?) comedy."

...So, judging by that (and with no knowledge of the two manga he name drops, "Totemo Hijikata-kun" and "Stop!! Hibari-kun!" it's...not looking good...

Well, that was depressing. I don't know how much more I want to go into my personal feelings on this revelation though for the people who may still get something positive out of a death-of-the-author English localized version of Okino.
I've not heard of Totemo Hijikata-kun, but I have watched the anime version of Stop!! Hibari-kun!, and Hibari is definitely not "just crossdressing", so there's that at least. It's an early-80s manga, so of course no one uses words like trans, but I doubt there's anyone in this thread who would read Hibari as anything but a trans girl. It's pretty blatant, at least to my (cis) eyes, even amidst the slew of gay panic "gags" and the like. It's not a shining example of representation, not even close, but Hibari is considered historically relevant as an early LGBT manga for a reason.

They state that this Okino character was initially conceived as simply using feminine clothes as a disguise, but later in development (after their popularity in the prologue demo) their character setting shifted to an actual crossdresser. It reads to me like Hijikata-kun was the inspiration for the initial concept, while Hibari-kun influence took over as the full story was being conceived, so take of that what you will I guess.
Still, they talk about this as BL multiple times, so it's pretty clear that the devs see Okino as a boy regardless of their inspiration.

And yeah, the overall tone of the article is exactly as you say. The creators seem to have intentionally put themselves in the minds of horny teenagers while making the game, thinking back to their own time as high schoolers in the 80s. If the game ends up having positive representation, it does seem like it was probably an unintentional coincidence and/or a shift of focus during localization.
 

Hakunon

Member
Oct 11, 2018
311
Japan can be tricky with trans representation. For a recent example, The Blue Period, a manga. I only started reading it because the tags said it had a trans character, but when I started reading it and overtook the translation, it became apparent that the said character was probably not. For a more retro and gaming-related example, Persona. People keep bringing up transphobia in Persona 3 (and later), but Persona 2 (at least the remakes, I didn't play the originals) had several NPCs that were trans women/men but their names and the comments made about them were disrespectful as far as I remember. The series always struggled with LGBTQ themes despite Jun and I doubt it's going to change with Persona 6.
 

Timu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,540
Plus Cammy wore this in Final Fight Streetwise:
ffs-5.png
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
Are we gonna have to add "(Yes, that's a real quote)" to the thread title or :D
 

purseowner

From the mirror universe
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,444
UK
I expect the 13 sentinels thread to go about as well as the cammy butt thread or any other thread like that if people bring up this kind of stuff unfortunately. People seem excited for that game, so there will be a lot of apologism.

To be fair, I haven't actually read the thread so maybe I'm being overly pessimistic from past experiences, like the cyberpunk stuff recently.
We specifically requested in the OT opening post that posters don't dismiss valid concerns about sexualisation, and for the most part it seems to be working. My copy only arrived today, but I'll share non-spoiler thoughts in here if something pops up that I find relevantly notable.
I've seen Stop!! Hibari-kun! referenced as probably the first anime to depict a trans woman in anime and possibly manga, at least for Weekly Shōnen Jump.
This is fascinating - I had no idea about this - gonna do some reading up.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
I will never understand why Yoko Taro gets a pass for what he does just cus he admits it. Like that really doesn't make it better?
 

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,268
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
As much as I like Nier Gestalt/Replicant and Kaine as a character, there is no defending her design and the other unfortunate aspect of her character. She is intersex and apparently has a penis, giving her panties a bulge. As you learn later in the game, she was physically abused and discriminated against by her village for being intersex. Apparently supplementary material for the game and in interviews, the subject is handled rather poorly.
 
Last edited:

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
I will never understand why Yoko Taro gets a pass for what he does just cus he admits it. Like that really doesn't make it better?

I think the idea is that it was refreshing in an era when every director confronted with the question pulled a "you'll be ashamed of your words and deeds" to have someone who just said outright that it's because they thought it looked sexy

But now that doesn't really fly in quite the same way

What's annoying is that a lot of the Automata designs specifically could be pretty rad if they just toned things down, not even by that much. There's not much that could be done for Kaine, though.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
As much as I like Nier Gestalt/Replicant and Kaine as a character, there is no defending her design and the other unfortunate aspect of her character. She is intersex and apparently has a penis, giving her panties a bulge. As you learn later in the game, she was physically abused and discriminated against by her village for being intersex. Apparently supplementary material for the game and in interviews, the subject is handled rather poorly.

Rather poorly is falling short f you read the side stories:

 

sensui-tomo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,629
"He tells it like it is!"

It's frustrating. I think both Taro and Kojima have plenty of creative and excellent ideas, which is then undermined by pervy and sexist bs.
At least Taro doesnt let you take provactive photos of people with ptsd in game... Kojima is really really bad by a considerable margin. Let me sexualize soldiers with traumatic backstories and do that with a straight face -.-
 

Turin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,457
Taro has a shitty attitude but Kojima's sexism really weirds me out, especially after reading some of what was in Death Stranding's story.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Taro has a shitty attitude but Kojima's sexism really weirds me out, especially after reading some of what was in Death Stranding's story.
Taro doesn't just have a shitty attitude, he's sexist as well, there was an achievement in his game to upskirt the protagonist. They both are really bad and have skirted for too long for what they do. But there does seem to be an idea that Taro is not as bad because he's honest about it but that just means he doesn't think he will have any consequences from it? Which is true cus he doesn't.
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,365
I really liked Automata, despite the issues. I'm feeling pretty hesitant about replicant though.
 

KujoJosuke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,742
I really liked Automata, despite the issues. I'm feeling pretty hesitant about replicant though.

Despite Kaine's outfit, she's actually a great character. She brings a fun dynamic to the group, she's relentlessly aggro towards pretty much everything and Laura Bailey was great at voicing her. She has the best line in the game, which also plays when you start the game up

 

Turin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,457
Taro doesn't just have a shitty attitude, he's sexist as well, there was an achievement in his game to upskirt the protagonist. They both are really bad and have skirted for too long for what they do. But there does seem to be an idea that Taro is not as bad because he's honest about it but that just means he doesn't think he will have any consequences from it? Which is true cus he doesn't.

You misunderstood what I meant. I agree about Taro. Kojima's just more of a psycho about it
 

sensui-tomo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,629
You misunderstood what I meant. I agree about Taro. Kojima's just more of a psycho about it
And I want to agree, Like Taro is bad at it and it should 100% be criticized. Kojima is the heavier offender because he wants to be serious with his stories... and then adds shit like a love box with a 16 yo and Big boss.....
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,214
Canada
Despite Kaine's outfit, she's actually a great character. She brings a fun dynamic to the group, she's relentlessly aggro towards pretty much everything and Laura Bailey was great at voicing her. She has the best line in the game, which also plays when you start the game up



lol agreed. A sad case of 'she's not bad, just drawn that way". :P
 

KujoJosuke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,742
Taro does have some good points, like including gay characters in NieR without them feeling like he was just checking off a box.

6O is funny and her whining about getting rejected was cute and humanizing and Emil is my beautiful son who I love.

I believe Taro has said "gay people exist so they should exist in games as well" or something along those lines.

Kojima on the other hand just...I dunno. The B&B units in 4, Quiet, just a bunch of stuff comes off as much worse.
 

Veezy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
283
I thought this might be a good place to ask this question. Let me know if it's not.

My niece and nephew love action figures and figurine toys, but the only girl/women/female ones I can seem to find are either Zelda Amibos, which are fine, and hyper-sexualized anime ladies. It's not exactly a wide variety. Can anybody recommend some figures that I can buy for them? I have plenty of monster/male options, but anything outside of that is just difficult for me to find.