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rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
But still buying their games while discussing about the problems with your friends online don't send them any signal either. Actually it's worse because they now have your money. It needs to be discussions AND personal actions.
They want you to buy future products from them? All games have some problematic content in them, I'm not going to completely leave the hobby because a product hasn't got everything completely right when they are making improvements - especially as leaving the hobby is just another statistic that women don't game so no point in aiming at us. You are asking for an incredibly high standard to play games with no problematic content in them, if I did that, there would literally be no media I could watch or read or play, and I'm not sure it's that useful as most of the game franchises I play while not perfect are getting better and better over time, again I think the problem is what we define as problematic content, if I find it awful enough that I don't want to buy the game and give the developers money for it , I probably wouldn't have enjoyed playing the game because of it so wouldn't want to buy the game so it would be a moot point. But there's plenty of games that I think have great representation of women that I think in a small section has something problematic in it - same with other media like I loved Gilmore Girls growing up and thought it was great having a show focus on a mother-daughter bond and have female characters that had good and bad bits to them but the show also had a few episodes were it was a bit slut shamy and I didn't like how Lane's storyline ended up (Lane is the best character btw) A media is the sum of it's parts, so it's not that simple to just consume completely unproblematic media. Especially when taking an intersectional approach.
 

NoSmallWave

Member
Aug 17, 2020
38
It's more that dev's actually need to know why you didn't buy their games or spent less on them going forward. They need to know you were a potential customer in the first place: basically you need to tell them someway whether that's in surveys, social media or some other way of getting info to them (btw this is not to go spam random devs who work there, there are official channels for feedback) Not buying stuff alone is useless, the dev can assume you didn't buy for another reason and can end up doubling down on what other fans say they like. We don't have to buy anything but we need to make it clear that we are potential customers with cash which means not completely leaving the hobby entirely which honestly the suggestion of not paying games with problematic content is because pretty much all games have something in them that's bad. It us to draw the line, and improtantly let devs know why.

I feel like people are doing that, though. At least, the places I frequent to talk about games, people are very vocal about who they support/boycott and why. There doesn't seem to be a lack of people pointing out sexism, racism and transphobia in games these days, and I'm glad of it.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
I feel like people are doing that, though. At least, the places I frequent to talk about games, people are very vocal about who they support/boycott and why. There doesn't seem to be a lack of people pointing out sexism, racism and transphobia in games these days, and I'm glad of it.
It's definetly happening a lot more which can only be a good thing. Especially the more voices, the better and more comprehensive the feedback will be, as everybody has different expereience and some can see stuff that's an issue that others can't. I would say it's a good idea to do feedback to a developer directly, it's one of the reasons I always try to do feedback surveys when asked as devs can't say they didn't see the feedback that way, as they asked for it.
 

Conditional-Pancakes

The GIFs of Us
Member
Jun 25, 2020
10,826
the wilderness
They want you to buy future products from them? All games have some problematic content in them, I'm not going to completely leave the hobby because a product hasn't got everything completely right when they are making improvements - especially as leaving the hobby is just another statistic that women don't game so no point in aiming at us. You are asking for an incredibly high standard to play games with no problematic content in them, if I did that, there would literally be no media I could watch or read or play, and I'm not sure it's that useful as most of the game franchises I play while not perfect are getting better and better over time, again I think the problem is what we define as problematic content, if I find it awful enough that I don't want to buy the game and give the developers money for it , I probably wouldn't have enjoyed playing the game because of it so wouldn't want to buy the game so it would be a moot point. But there's plenty of games that I think have great representation of women that I think in a small section has something problematic in it - same with other media like I loved Gilmore Girls growing up and thought it was great having a show focus on a mother-daughter bond and have female characters that had good and bad bits to them but the show also had a few episodes were it was a bit slut shamy and I didn't like how Lane's storyline ended up (Lane is the best character btw) A media is the sum of it's parts, so it's not that simple to just consume completely unproblematic media. Especially when taking an intersectional approach.

What? I'm not talking about leaving the hobby. I'm talking about making choices and good decisions about SOME games. Choices that may involve not buying SOME games out there. And yes, these choices may mean that you won't be buying SOME games you would have liked otherwise. So what? Don't take this the wrong way, but you seem to attach a very high value to these entertainment products...
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
What? I'm not talking about leaving the hobby. I'm talking about making choices and good decisions about SOME games. Choices that may involve not buying SOME games out there. And yes, these choices may mean that you won't be buying SOME games you would have liked otherwise. So what?
All games have problematic content in them, you aren't at all clear at what the line is? People already make choices for themselves on whether it's worth buying a game and what rules out stuff, I'm not entirely clear what you are asking for?
 

Conditional-Pancakes

The GIFs of Us
Member
Jun 25, 2020
10,826
the wilderness
All games have problematic content in them, you aren't at all clear at what the line is? People already make choices for themselves on whether it's worth buying a game and what rules out stuff, I'm not entirely clear what you are asking for?

Aren't we in a thread about women's representation? So right now I'm mostly talking about positive women's representation, women's equality, and women's safety.

I'm advocating for people that are already calling for changes to make good choices if they really want these changes to manifest. And these choices may include not buying some of the games out there. I don't exactly see why it seems to be such a wild concept.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Aren't we in a thread about women's representation? So right now I'm mostly talking about positive women's representation, women's equality, and women's safety.

I'm advocating for people that are already calling for changes to make good choices if they really want these changes to manifest. And these choices may include not buying some of the games out there. I don't exactly see why it seems to be such a wild concept.
Why are assuming they are making bad choices? They are making choices to try and get games to play in a hobby that is actively hostile and tried to push them out for decades, a lot of the choices have had to be compromised just to even stay in the hobby at all, but they've still pushed the hobby to get better and continue to do so. I'm not going to have a go at others for playing a game which has some problematic stuff when it may be the limited choice they have in the genre they like it just the best choice they have. I will have a problem if they try to downplay the issues or have a go at others for not choosing to buy. You keep saying that people are being resigned and are buying problematic games regardless but I really don't see that in this thread?
 

Sölf

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,939
Germany
This just boggles my mind. Like, it's 90% covered, but they just had to leave that bit open so you can tell she's wearing a thong.
If I had to guess it's because she is an Erune, and their entire species has a thing for exposing their back. Call it fashion or whatever, but basically every single character in every single outfit has an exposed back, no matter how much armor they wear.

Just look through the Erune characters and their art here. There are some exceptions, but most have an exposed back.
 

Conditional-Pancakes

The GIFs of Us
Member
Jun 25, 2020
10,826
the wilderness
You keep saying that people are being resigned and are buying problematic games regardless but I really don't see that in this thread?

If you really are asking for examples:

After over decades of playing games you can get used to a lot of trash and so it goes. I mean, I had to fight over every single topic that bothered me I wouldn't complete much progress towards my hobbies.
Sexism exists in almost every game in some form or another, and trying to avoid it entirely would pretty much mean just giving up gaming for good or sticking to extremely limited options that may not even be fun for us.
Not buying a game that has sexist content in it would literally mean that you can't buy any games and would be shut out of an entire medium - everyone has there lines in the sand on what their dealbreaker is, heck alot of the games criticised in this thread are some of the posters in this thread's favourite games.
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
If I had to guess it's because she is an Erune, and their entire species has a thing for exposing their back. Call it fashion or whatever, but basically every single character in every single outfit has an exposed back, no matter how much armor they wear.

Just look through the Erune characters and their art here. There are some exceptions, but most have an exposed back.
This isn't the back, it's the front and sides that are exposed.
 

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,268
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
Final Fantasy XVI has been unveiled and I don't think I've ever been so unhyped for a mainline game. Minimal presence of women in the trailer and it looks like the dual protagonists are both men on opposite sides of a conflict. They want to kill each other, so let the hate fuck shipping begin.
 

Conditional-Pancakes

The GIFs of Us
Member
Jun 25, 2020
10,826
the wilderness
And that's not making the best decision they can make to stay in the hobby and actually play games? I thought you said that you didn't want people leaving the hobby?

There are a lot of games available. Not every single one of them have sexist shit in them. There's nobody holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy these specific games. Choices.

And at the end of the day, they are just entertainment products. How important is it to suffer sexism and misogyny just for the sake of being entertained a little?

But anyway, let's quit this sterile discussion. It goes nowhere and takes way too much space in the thread. I have my positions, you have yours. We obviously won't convince each other today. Let's quit it, and let's agree to disagree.
 

y2kyle89

Member
Mar 16, 2018
9,486
Mass
Final Fantasy XVI has been unveiled and I don't think I've ever been so unhyped for a mainline game. Minimal presence of women in the trailer and it looks like the dual protagonists are both men on opposite sides of a conflict.
I was thinking the exact same thing.
They want to kill each other, so let the hate fuck shipping begin.
Maybe not the exact same thing...
 

Sölf

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,939
Germany
This isn't the back, it's the front and sides that are exposed.
Yeah, sure, but I wouldn't be suprised if her back was exposed as well and they just designed it with that gap because it "makes more sense". Now... if her back is fully armored as well I take back what I said earlier. Then it is indeed just dumb.
 

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,268
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
The only positive thing I can say about XVI, from what they've shown in regards to women, is it probably has the best Shiva design they've ever had. Of course, she's the only icon/primal/summon/eidolon/whatever that looks human. 🙄
 
OP
OP
Persephone

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,408
i propose that every future ot is named to dunk on a stupid quote from someone on era.

why women criticise sexualised character designs | ot4 | "some of my favourite characters are women"
 

Rae

Member
Mar 7, 2019
984
Final Fantasy XVI has been unveiled and I don't think I've ever been so unhyped for a mainline game. Minimal presence of women in the trailer and it looks like the dual protagonists are both men on opposite sides of a conflict. They want to kill each other, so let the hate fuck shipping begin.

I feel ya. I saw the trailer and I'm like hmm there's 2-3 women in that scene so progress? I was hoping we'd get a FeMC for the next game but so it goes. Maybe we'll see some new party members eventually in a few years.

I admit, I rarely buy games new since most mainstream games don't appeal to me so I'm OK waiting for a few months. I already deleted Aegis Rim from my wishlist due to the weird story.

BTW: There's a anime/manga thread for ppl who interested in chatting about it w/o going OT here.

www.resetera.com

Feminist Discussion of Anime and Manga |OT| Not your waifu OT

Yeah Hololive def wanted to be the Idol shit, but i think the popularity of like Coco and Marine have put a damper on that because they love to be as non-Idol as possible, and Coco is insanely popular and has helped the brand the most. Nijisanji is interesting because they have more males and...
 
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Hresvelg

Member
Feb 22, 2020
110
hi, guys, this is my first time posting here after months of lurking! i guess the new ffxvi announcement pushed me out of my shell lol since this is one of the few places I'd feel comfortable sharing my disappointment due to yet another male protagonist in a mainline final fantasy game 😪
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
Final Fantasy XVI has been unveiled and I don't think I've ever been so unhyped for a mainline game. Minimal presence of women in the trailer and it looks like the dual protagonists are both men on opposite sides of a conflict. They want to kill each other, so let the hate fuck shipping begin.

I'm pretty sure it's the same guy after a timeskip, dishevelled because his ward was killed/went all Ifrit in front of him

It is a bit of a shame we aren't getting a female protagonist but the XIV team does a generally great job of having female party members. Just a question of whether they'll be playable (I assume so, the main character seems to use the weapons of summons and I imagine they'd want a female character to use female summon attacks).
 

crienne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,167
I'm pretty sure it's the same guy after a timeskip, dishevelled because his ward was killed/went all Ifrit in front of him

It is a bit of a shame we aren't getting a female protagonist but the XIV team does a generally great job of having female party members. Just a question of whether they'll be playable (I assume so, the main character seems to use the weapons of summons and I imagine they'd want a female character to use female summon attacks).

That was my interpretation of it too. I'm extremely disappointed to not have a female or BIPOC (or both!) protag front and center, but I hope representation around the hero is good enough.
 

Sesha

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,808
i propose that every future ot is named to dunk on a stupid quote from someone on era.

why women criticise sexualised character designs | ot4 | "some of my favourite characters are women"

That quote is amazing for all wrong reasons. I support that.

Though I'm quite partial to those "healthy fertile skin glow/her skin looks bad like she's not fertile." comments I shared from GameFAQs a few months back: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/278662-resident-evil-3/78467217
 

Rayne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,633
Oh boy. They could've at least done something like Gen Lock where the technology syncs better with young developing brains but that's some real "breathes through her skin" rationalization.


There's an interview somewhere that said Ayla's sprites were bouncier in development before being told to tone it down. Might've dodged a bullet there.

Speaking of, here's something fun.

Who Wore It Better?: Young Teenage Thief Girl Edition

Crazy how similar they are and the big difference is the sexualization between the two.

Yeah stuff like this is ridiculous. I can see a girl wearing the left outfit. The right just looks so stupid and skin for the sake of skin. I don't understand you can make an outfit cute and feminine while showing skin without going straight to "well that's obvious fanservice." (Also wtf are those shoes on the right one. Dear lord).
 

sensui-tomo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,629
Yeah stuff like this is ridiculous. I can see a girl wearing the left outfit. The right just looks so stupid and skin for the sake of skin. I don't understand you can make an outfit cute and feminine while showing skin without going straight to "well that's obvious fanservice." (Also wtf are those shoes on the right one. Dear lord).
Chrono cross has some weird designs

033ee715b8719843375b1ae59c968147.jpg
 

Moogle

Top Mog
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,765
i propose that every future ot is named to dunk on a stupid quote from someone on era.

why women criticise sexualised character designs | ot4 | "some of my favourite characters are women"

good one
I'll nominate "but real women wear that to the gym" (the clothes in question? leather miniskirt and skintight thigh-high stockings)
 

Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,038
hi, guys, this is my first time posting here after months of lurking! i guess the new ffxvi announcement pushed me out of my shell lol since this is one of the few places I'd feel comfortable sharing my disappointment due to yet another male protagonist in a mainline final fantasy game 😪
Yar, there's actually things in that trailer that really appeals to me but after the last game and its poor female representation, the lack of focus of any woman at all in this trailer bums me out.
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,365
Final fantasy 6, commonly regarded as the best or second best final fantasy by a large portion of the fan base, basically had two characters you could try and argue as the protagonists, either Celes or Terra. They were both women.
The actual best final fantasy game (10, fight me) basically had Tidus and Yuna, a man and a woman, as essentially co protagonists and that worked very well.
13 was a shit show, but must have sold well since they made it into a trilogy. Lightning, a woman, was the protagonist of the first and third games, and her sister Serah shares the protagonist slot with some boy as co protagonists for the middle game in the trilogy.

Final Fantasy has had very good success with games featuring women in prominent roles previously, Its a shame they are so hooked on entirely male driven games lately but for all the faults we could point at Final Fantasy games, I don't think it could be argued that they ignore women in general even if the last one was a boys club. I don't know of a lot of JRPG companies honestly that would have commited to as women driven a trilogy as the 13 trilogy was. Not without going down really gross objectification paths.
 
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Jotakori

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,182
If you really are asking for examples:
I still have my personal threshold of sexualization bs. I'm not out there picking up every tiddy JRPG under the sun and there obviously is gonna be a point where I refuse to buy. Like, I've tried XB2, and after that game I know I'll never buy another XB game again unless it actively looks to have improved on those issues (which I highly, highly doubt will happen). It's not as though anyone saying 'sexism is in everything' is also saying 'buy everything' -- we're saying that if we tried to avoid any and every product with problematic content we'd basically be out of gaming entirely. And I promise you, people who are aware of these issues are already weighing each purchase they make.

But like, if I look at my game library, only maybe about a fifth of them lack any kind of problematic content towards women, and yet several of those are on the less enjoyable end for me. If i were to "vote with my wallet" as they say, I would probably just stop gaming entirely, because a $400+ console is not worth paying for two or three enjoyable and problem-free games. I feel there is more value in me being a fan and part of these communities and constantly voicing my complaints and suggestions, letting them know there are in fact women who enjoy their content too and if they considered us a bit more they might open wider audience revenues, then leaving these gaming communities--and potentially gaming entirely--and consequently making it even more of a boy's club that perpetuates this bullshit.

And I'm not saying those who want to vote with their wallet on these issues are wrong--especially since we all do it to an extent naturally, I'm just saying that it isn't the only solution and that it's unfair to treat it as such and ask women to give up something they enjoy when sometimes it feels like there is already so fucking little out there to enjoy. We can still fight for change as consumers, just in different ways. Cuz lord knows I'm still pissed about Cindy and literally every fucking thing about XB2 and I absolutely will complain about those at every opportunity -- and if, by being there, I can get the issue through at least one dude's thick ass skull to change his mind then it'll have made it worth it.
 

Deleted member 511

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,676
It would've been nice to have more women peppered in throughout the trailer either as soldiers or leaders sitting in during some of the meetings but I guess I feel indifferent either way. They all would've just been white women anyway which is just as boring to me if I'm being brutally honest. SE usually only makes FF female characters (at least ones apart of the main cast) that look a certain way and I'm kind of tired of just being happy because it's a least partial representation. Like...can I get a woman who looks like me as a lead, or even a side party member, at least once? FF is 30+ years old series and the only notable brown/black women that are playable is Fang, who isn't written that well imo, and Fran, a fetishized bunny woman. The representation for brown/black men isn't really better. While FF does need to do better with female characters (ex. I'm tired of almost every main female lead being a mage), I feel like the series has done a good job for the most part outside of XV. I think representation and colorism is a growing issue within the series (and even the fanbase) that needs to be addressed but people avoid it tbh.

At least there's Project Athia. <3
 
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Timu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,539
Final Fantasy XVI has been unveiled and I don't think I've ever been so unhyped for a mainline game. Minimal presence of women in the trailer and it looks like the dual protagonists are both men on opposite sides of a conflict. They want to kill each other, so let the hate fuck shipping begin.
Wow SE. Another white Male protagonist to represent the brand.
hi, guys, this is my first time posting here after months of lurking! i guess the new ffxvi announcement pushed me out of my shell lol since this is one of the few places I'd feel comfortable sharing my disappointment due to yet another male protagonist in a mainline final fantasy game 😪
I was hoping for some female protagonists after how FFXV went but it seems like they are doing mainly(or only) males yet again for some reason. Was the last main FF game to have a main female protagonist was FFXIII right?
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,365
How was the ongoing representation handled in the 13 trilogy anyway, was it any good? I only played the first one, and couldn't even finish it so I didn't keep going with the sequels.
 

Timu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,539
Wow, FFXIII was 10 years ago(in the US) and I had it on day one, time flies I guess.
 

Deleted member 66837

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 24, 2020
1,650
It would've been nice to have more women peppered in throughout the trailer either as soldiers or leaders sitting in during some of the meetings but I guess I feel indifferent either way. They all would've just been white women anyway which is just as boring to me if I'm being brutally honest. SE usually only makes FF female character (at least ones apart of the main cast) that look a certain way and I'm kind of tired of just being happy because it's a least partial representation. Like...can I get a woman who looks like me as a lead, or even a side party member - at least once? FF is 30+ years old series and the only notable brown/black women that are playable is Fang, who isn't written that well imo, and Fran, a fetishized bunny woman. The representation for brown/black men isn't really better. While FF does need to do better with female characters (ex. I'm tired of almost every main female lead being a mage), I feel like the series has done a good job for the most part outside of XV. I think representation and colorism is a growing issue within the series (and even the fanbase) that needs to be addressed but people avoid it tbh.

At least there's Project Athia. <3
So well said!

Hoping for the best with Athia, a black protagonist is the dream
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,051
I find the enthusiasm over Aegis Rim on this forum (and other places) a bit off-putting, I was interested in it myself at first but after seeing several examples of sexualization I became skeptical. I do like mecha and I occasionally appreciate the male nudity associated with it, but in most cases it is not supposed to be fanservice-y as the main audience is men. Meanwhile, more recent examples like Darling and that game feel objectifying when it comes to the female cast. Also, those supposed in-game explanations... Those developers can literally come up with anything to justify it.
It's nothing surprising, Vanillaware has been long worshipped here and in the former forum. Generally, art aside, their games have been well loved. Odin Sphere, Muramasas, Dragons Crown. It's a mix of their pedigree, plus also some hype from big names like Sakurai and Yoko Taro this time around.
I think the interest really ticked upwards when Aegis Rim started winning awards in Japan. Not even gaming awards, but just general writing awards.

I think there's some sci-fi writing award in Japan where Aegis Rim became the first video game to ever win last year.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
I wouldn't quite swear off FFXVI in terms of female and minority representation yet. The footage shown looks like it might almost exclusively be from a FFXII like prologue with a hinted time jump and, with that, a possibility of more diverse, larger cast. XIV has a metric shitton of female characters & some minorities, would be quite a jump to be as exclusively male dominated as the trailer. I don't blame people worrying, though.
 

Jotakori

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,182
How was the ongoing representation handled in the 13 trilogy anyway, was it any good? I only played the first one, and couldn't even finish it so I didn't keep going with the sequels.
XIII itself was.... not the worst thing ever by JRPG standards but still had some issues. Vanille's constant sex noises, Jihl's stupid boob-window-latex-thing, the mark placements on the female characters, and some conversations (such as between Vanille and Sahz) were pretty cringey. I still overall liked most of the female cast, at least, and I have an easier time stomaching how they're treated and look over many of the other FF games.
XIII-2, though, immediately took a nose dive in outfit designs with what they put Serah and Lightning in, and LR made it even worse by turning Lightning into a dress up doll (bigger boobs included) and gave her a bunch of really awful outfits. LR also basically undid any character development the other games had so a lot of the characters really regressed. Vanille, especially, was taken in a really shit direction in that game. :/

At the very least, what with them being led by female characters, they manage to avoid a lot of the more obnoxious tropes often seen in games with lead male protags.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,276
Square releases another boring, unremarkable game with flashy everything, news at 11.

I really wish that if they were going to try and sell their movie games they'd just hire a writer from the film industry, since it's already abundantly clear no one in the video game industry knows how to do it.
 

Dragmire

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,116
The reason that tweet and others like it are going around is because last time a single player FF series had the focus on female characters was the XIII series. The last time women had their own issues that didn't revolve around men and weren't perfect people. The last time there was a woman had a sword representing the brand. That was more than 10 years ago.

You didn't like it. Fine. But that's it? No more women leading FF? Ask me how many times I seen people counter with: "But X-2 and the XIII series. Why would you want more?"

I never played the new expansions of FFXIV so someone will have to tell me how they represent women in those expansions. (aside from what I've seen in marketing)I like Y'shtola from what I've seen in the spin offs but SE still markets the expansions using a male avatar as the main character. Even that piece of crap Ubisoft makes different CG trailers for Assassin Creed.
 

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,268
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
It sucks we probably won't get another mainline Final Fantasy entry with a leading woman for a long ass time.

At least Project Athia exists and looks interesting, though who knows what the final game will be like.
 
OP
OP
Persephone

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,408
i have fond memories of men at the old place trying to convince me that xv wasn't sexist at all, actually, because luna is a Stronk Female Character who stands up to soldiers and sdhgmems hegeurmes mnsdbnsdjf
 

Deleted member 66837

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 24, 2020
1,650
Couldn't stand XV, but everything Luminous has done outside of XV (their tech demos and Athia) really focuses on leading women. Really hope they can deliver