Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."

[Deleted member 4976]

Feel like this quote from a poster should be one of the nominees for the next threads title:

Her gender got nothing to do with why I can't take her character seriously I never said because she's a woman one of my favorite characters ever are women

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Context:

Spoiler

PlayStation 5 Showcase broadcasts live this Wednesday at 1pm Pacific Time News

Some places may do it, but Sony said they aren't going to have pre-orders start out of nowhere and will give people notice in advance. I noticed your avatar, have you seen this:

www.resetera.com

Being over 30 is a problem now...

 

[RecLib]

Speaking of, here's something fun.

Who Wore It Better?: Young Teenage Thief Girl Edition



Crazy how similar they are and the big difference is the sexualization between the two.

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I think this comes up sometimes in these threads too. Where generally speaking a lot of the thread really likes a design that still has a lot of exposed flesh, and some posters don't understand why we'd like it. But there really is a lot more nuance to it than 'how much clothing'. Your post there is a really good example.

Feel like this quote from a poster should be one of the nominees for the next threads title:



Context:

Spoiler

PlayStation 5 Showcase broadcasts live this Wednesday at 1pm Pacific Time News

Some places may do it, but Sony said they aren't going to have pre-orders start out of nowhere and will give people notice in advance. I noticed your avatar, have you seen this:

www.resetera.com

Being over 30 is a problem now...

Click to shrink...

Agiesm and sexism in one go (because probably the age wouldn't be a problem if the character was an older gruff man.)

 

[Conditional-Pancakes]

God i can't put into words how much i hate JRPG/Anime games..... how do you guys do it?? Its so off puting to me just how the female characters like fucking MOVE to start with, the hands always being near their chest in a dainty manner and its always flapping around when their running and the legs look like they belong to someone else as it tries to give a booty shot to the camera, literally breaking the back to achieve it, plus the voice acting for both domestic and foriegn voices, literally sounds like nails on a chalk board and if their voices arent higher then a skyscraper the deep voiced ones are literally moaning every other sentence. Like i know there are good ones that don't have any of this but the industry is so incestual i would need to do an actual search to find one. I try my best to not be so judgemental and biased but its basically impossible for me :/

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I agree so much. I'm feeling the same.

A few months ago when I wanted to really reconnect with the medium of video games, it quickly dawned on me that I wouldn't be gaming as much as I wanted. Yes, JRPGs and anime games really are THE WORT, but a lot of other games also wear their misogynistic tendencies on their sleeves. Either directly in the games themselves, or through the intermediary of the company involved in their development.

So there are a lot of things that I choose not to play, because I just can't.

After over decades of playing games you can get used to a lot of trash and so it goes. I mean, I had to fight over every single topic that bothered me I wouldn't complete much progress towards my hobbies. There's not a single area where women are free from terrible sexism, judgment, and suffering.

I do avoid games like TW3 and Ubisoft though.

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I can't understand this kind of resigned attitude. It's borderline cynical. Nobody is putting a gun against your head and forcing you to play games with things you find problematic. Why do you do it? I understand gaming is your hobby, but why do you love it so much if fighting over every single topic that bothers you is such an insurmountable task that you had to surrender? Why did you let yourself get desensitized about such topics?

I am a huge believer in individual responsibilities and if nobody takes a stance, we'll still be here years from now, in OT number 14, still posting pictures of ridiculously misogynistic depictions of women. And game companies will continue churning out games with the same kind of things over and over again. Why would they stop?

Look, I'm not attacking you personally. I don't know you except for these few short lines. Maybe it's not exactly what you meant. But it's an attitude I'm seeing A LOT about entertainment media containing things that are clearly problematic, especially when these problematic things are affecting women. People keep repeating mantras like "but I wouldn't play anything" or "it's OK for me to consume this as long as I stay critical." It's like they're trying really hard to absolve themselves of any guilt about their own personal choices. Well, I call bullshit.

 

[Dary]

Feel like this quote from a poster should be one of the nominees for the next threads title:



Context:

Spoiler

PlayStation 5 Showcase broadcasts live this Wednesday at 1pm Pacific Time News

Some places may do it, but Sony said they aren't going to have pre-orders start out of nowhere and will give people notice in advance. I noticed your avatar, have you seen this:

www.resetera.com

Being over 30 is a problem now...

Click to shrink...

Is it a crime to quote yourself?

Good ol' Atelier.

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God i can't put into words how much i hate JRPG/Anime games..... how do you guys do it??

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In regards to the above example, which I played through earlier in the year...I just changed the characters' outfits, skipped most of the cutscenes, and pretended I was playing a Sailor Moon/Fullmetal Alchemist fusion where a bunch of goth princesses hunt dragons.

If they made actual games like that, I wouldn't have to pretend, but what can you do?

 

[RedSwirl]

God i can't put into words how much i hate JRPG/Anime games..... how do you guys do it?? Its so off puting to me just how the female characters like fucking MOVE to start with, the hands always being near their chest in a dainty manner and its always flapping around when their running and the legs look like they belong to someone else as it tries to give a booty shot to the camera, literally breaking the back to achieve it, plus the voice acting for both domestic and foriegn voices, literally sounds like nails on a chalk board and if their voices arent higher then a skyscraper the deep voiced ones are literally moaning every other sentence. Like i know there are good ones that don't have any of this but the industry is so incestual i would need to do an actual search to find one. I try my best to not be so judgemental and biased but its basically impossible for me :/

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I definitely have to admit I've been far less interested in JRPGs made these days as opposed to previous console generations, and a main reason is I just don't like the character designs. The ever-present high-school focus is another problem I have. This mostly seems to pertain to more niche stuff like, I dunno, Neptunia games or Atelier or whatever else is squarely aimed to sell a few hundred thousand copies in the otaku market. I can still play like, a Dragon Quest game or a Shin Megami Tensei or something like that.

 

[Famassu]

My thinking is that there's just so much stuff in the world to enjoy that I just don't have the interest to give hugely problematic shit the time of the day. Not that I don't have some exeptions of problematic games that I've experienced despite knowing about it beforehand (i.e. Nier Automata, Bayonetta), but generally it gets pretty easy to skip the problematic things when you acknowledge just how much content(/whatever word you want to use) the world has to offer across all different mediums. If Japanese games feel like they are just going too heavy on the pedo bait, lots of mangas offers that Japanese touch to storytelling that can fill the void without (huge) issues. My Goodreads "Want to Read" list has something like 150-200 books that I could get into instead. Or I can watch some tv series. That's even before getting into things I can do outside of my home (well, not necessarily currently...). Instead of lamenting the games I can't play or ignoring the issues & playing them anyways, I'll just do something different, a majority of the time.

 

[Cyclonesweep]

God i can't put into words how much i hate JRPG/Anime games..... how do you guys do it?? Its so off puting to me just how the female characters like fucking MOVE to start with, the hands always being near their chest in a dainty manner and its always flapping around when their running and the legs look like they belong to someone else as it tries to give a booty shot to the camera, literally breaking the back to achieve it, plus the voice acting for both domestic and foriegn voices, literally sounds like nails on a chalk board and if their voices arent higher then a skyscraper the deep voiced ones are literally moaning every other sentence. Like i know there are good ones that don't have any of this but the industry is so incestual i would need to do an actual search to find one. I try my best to not be so judgemental and biased but its basically impossible for me :/

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I blocked a friend off of Twitter cause he is obsessed with them and Waifus and posts really vulgar stuff, even younger people cause "it's just drawings". I couldn't take it.

 

[Hakunon]

I find the enthusiasm over Aegis Rim on this forum (and other places) a bit off-putting, I was interested in it myself at first but after seeing several examples of sexualization I became skeptical. I do like mecha and I occasionally appreciate the male nudity associated with it, but in most cases it is not supposed to be fanservice-y as the main audience is men. Meanwhile, more recent examples like Darling and that game feel objectifying when it comes to the female cast. Also, those supposed in-game explanations... Those developers can literally come up with anything to justify it.

 

[kyorii]

I find the enthusiasm over Aegis Rim on this forum (and other places) a bit off-putting, I was interested in it myself at first but after seeing several examples of sexualization I became skeptical. I do like mecha and I occasionally appreciate the male nudity associated with it, but in most cases it is not supposed to be fanservice-y as the main audience is men. Meanwhile, more recent examples like Darling and that game feel objectifying when it comes to the female cast. Also, those supposed in-game explanations... Those developers can literally come up with anything to justify it.

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It's nothing surprising, Vanillaware has been long worshipped here and in the former forum. Generally, art aside, their games have been well loved. Odin Sphere, Muramasas, Dragons Crown. It's a mix of their pedigree, plus also some hype from big names like Sakurai and Yoko Taro this time around.

 

[Famassu]

I find the enthusiasm over Aegis Rim on this forum (and other places) a bit off-putting, I was interested in it myself at first but after seeing several examples of sexualization I became skeptical. I do like mecha and I occasionally appreciate the male nudity associated with it, but in most cases it is not supposed to be fanservice-y as the main audience is men. Meanwhile, more recent examples like Darling and that game feel objectifying when it comes to the female cast. Also, those supposed in-game explanations... Those developers can literally come up with anything to justify it.

Click to shrink...

Hmm? Does Aegis Rim get pedobait-y/misogynist-y/objectifying? I was kinda afraid there would be something like that in the game but no one mentioned anything about it & I haven't noticed anything myself in the limited amount of material I've seen from the game, so I was kinda hoping there wasn't anything too bad. Wouldn't be too surprised. Anime weebs are really good with ignoring any & all problematic aspects in the media they consume (& often even like it). After Bakuman getting tons of praise and me being roped into purchashing it based on the feedback from ResetEra alone (or might've still been NeoGAF), I've been much more careful with my animu purchases. Bakuman was really bad.

 

[Rotobit]

Hmm? Does Aegis Rim get pedobait-y/misogynist-y/objectifying? I was kinda afraid there would be something like that in the game but no one mentioned anything about it & I haven't noticed anything myself in the limited amount of material I've seen from the game, so I was kinda hoping there wasn't anything too bad. Wouldn't be too surprised. Anime weebs are really good with ignoring any & all problematic aspects in the media they consume (& often even like it). After Bakuman getting tons of praise and me being roped into purchashing it based on the feedback from ResetEra alone (or might've still been NeoGAF), I've been much more careful with my animu purchases. Bakuman was really bad.

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I'm not sure how much is shown in the game itself but the characters pilot the mechs completely nude. The female characters are depicted much more sexually compared to their male counterparts.

The last thread had a brief discussion about a pre-order theme in Japan that was just a naked teenager leaning against mecha controls and it was borderline hentai, to the extent it was removed from the site. It was... something.

It seems like a really interesting game tainted by Vanillaware's penchant for being extremely horny for no reason.

EDIT: According to a post in that review thread the naked teenagers are the only thing in the game drawn by the notorious Dragon's Crown artist and the rest of the art is by two women? Well, that explains a lot.

 

[Famassu]

I'm not sure how much is shown in the game itself but the characters pilot the mechs completely nude.

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Because of course they do. Wearing protective gear while operating a war machine must seem like moon logic to these people. *sigh*

 

[Rotobit]

Because of course they do. Wearing protective gear while operating a war machine must seem like moon logic to these people. *sigh*

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I think the explanation is that it's very hot inside, so they have to wear as little clothing as possible. Which is still ridiculous because it's not real and if you want to apply realistic thermodynamics to the universe then the mechs themselves should crumple under their own weight.

What's even more baffling is that the last time I saw the same trope was Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker, where it was still terrible but at least Paz had some underwear on (probably to Kojima's chagrin if we're being honest)

 

[Sander VF]

Because of course they do. Wearing protective gear while operating a war machine must seem like moon logic to these people. *sigh*

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This here makes more sense than the Aegis Rim thing

I think the explanation is that it's very hot inside, so they have to wear as little clothing as possible. Which is still ridiculous because it's not real and if you want to apply realistic thermodynamics to the universe then the mechs themselves should crumple under their own weight.

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It's curious how in almost half a century of the mech genre existing this is the first property to tackle the subject of extreme heat in cockpits.

If I didn't know any better, I'd think it was just a lore excuse to strip down the girls or something.

 

[Famassu]

I think the explanation is that it's very hot inside, so they have to wear as little clothing as possible. Which is still ridiculous because it's not real and if you want to apply realistic thermodynamics to the universe then the mechs themselves should crumple under their own weight.

What's even more baffling is that the last time I saw the same trope was Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker, where it was still terrible but at least Paz had some underwear on (probably to Kojima's chagrin if we're being honest)

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Ah, yes, the grounded scifi future where we've solved how to have massive, functional mechas but cooling solutions are apparently unbeknownst to us! Such realism, much wow-mechas

This here makes more sense than the Aegis Rim thing

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lol

 

[RecLib]

Wouldn't it be the opposite anyway? Like if you're inside a metal container that get's extremely hot, you need a protective layer.

 

[spiritfox]

Battletech did the heat thing long ago FYI, and they're still dressed.

 

[Sander VF]

Wouldn't it be the opposite anyway? Like if you're inside a metal container that get's extremely hot, you need a protective layer.

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We've had mechs of various degrees of groundedness in anime and other media for many decades and this is the first time I've seen nude piloting protocols.

Noa Izumi didn't go stripping down every time she had to pilot Alphonse, for example.

Looking up this game's mechs, they don't seem all that grounded

 

[P-Tux7]

In regards to the above example, which I played through earlier in the year...I just changed the characters' outfits, skipped most of the cutscenes, and pretended I was playing a Sailor Moon/Fullmetal Alchemist fusion where a bunch of goth princesses hunt dragons.

If they made actual games like that, I wouldn't have to pretend, but what can you do?

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Speaking as someone who hasn't purchased (or pirated!) any games in over half a decade and will only be able to do so in a few years, I am asking sincerely here because I don't have enough attachment to modern games to know for myself. Is it too much to ask of you to not buy the game (or at least buy it used)? If every JRPG is sexist, do we have a moral responsibility to not play them, even at great personal cost?

 

[Jotakori]

Speaking as someone who hasn't purchased (or pirated!) any games in over half a decade and will only be able to do so in a few years, I am asking sincerely here because I don't have enough attachment to modern games to know for myself. Is it too much to ask of you to not buy the game (or at least buy it used)? If every JRPG is sexist, do we have a moral responsibility to not play them, even at great personal cost?

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This has been brushed upon a few times throughout these OTs -- asking to buy used is definitely a valid stance, but asking us to not buy them at all just isn't fair (and also addressed in the OP).
Sexism exists in almost every game in some form or another, and trying to avoid it entirely would pretty much mean just giving up gaming for good or sticking to extremely limited options that may not even be fun for us. Like, I'm just not much into most indies or western games; I don't care for the art direction a lot of the time, I don't like playing as generic middle aged white men, 2D games are harder for me to get into, etc etc. Versus with jprgs, I love the art styles, I love the epic stories and wild character designs (when the girls aren't stupidly sexualized), I love the combat systems, etc etc. If I want to be able to enjoy more than, like, idk just HZD? I kinda have to put up with some amount of bullshit.
Plus, women and those who are super against sexualization are already getting ignored by the devs & marketing as it is. It's not our money they're pandering to and angling for, they don't care whether they have it or not. So ultimately and unfortunately not buying them just isn't really gonna make a worthwhile statement or difference. If anything, women and critics leaving these gaming spaces due to not playing anything is just gonna make the problem worse.

And besides, perhaps the argument of 'moral responsibility' would be a bit different when applied to men, but as a woman I see no reason why I should give up what enjoyment I can get when I'm already on the shit side of the stick to begin with.

 

[Weltall Zero]

We've had mechs of various degrees of groundedness in anime and other media for many decades and this is the first time I've seen nude piloting protocols.

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Oh you sweet summer child.




Even the "doggy-style" pilot's positions in Aegis Rim aren't new:



There's this weird overlap in anime between mecha and sexualization of women that makes even mainstream shows (all of the above are mainstream and have been featured in e.g. Super Robot Wars) look like softcore porn. As a huge fan of mecha myself, this is what eventually made me turn away from anime, and find my mecha fixes elsewhere. Pacific Rim was instrumental in reviving the genre in the Western world, with other works like Into the Breach clearly inspired by it.

 

[Sander VF]

Oh you sweet summer child.




Even the "doggy-style" pilot's positions in Aegis Rim aren't new:



There's this weird overlap in anime between mecha and sexualization of women that makes even mainstream shows (all of the above are mainstream and have been featured in e.g. Super Robot Wars) look like softcore porn. As a huge fan of mecha myself, this is what eventually made me turn away from anime, and find my mecha fixes elsewhere. Pacific Rim was instrumental in reviving the genre in the Western world, with other works like Into the Breach clearly inspired by it.

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Hey I've actually seen Iczer one!

It seems I barely remember anything about it.

 

[ClickyCal']

My thinking is that there's just so much stuff in the world to enjoy that I just don't have the interest to give hugely problematic shit the time of the day. Not that I don't have some exeptions of problematic games that I've experienced despite knowing about it beforehand (i.e. Nier Automata, Bayonetta), but generally it gets pretty easy to skip the problematic things when you acknowledge just how much content(/whatever word you want to use) the world has to offer across all different mediums. If Japanese games feel like they are just going too heavy on the pedo bait, lots of mangas offers that Japanese touch to storytelling that can fill the void without (huge) issues. My Goodreads "Want to Read" list has something like 150-200 books that I could get into instead. Or I can watch some tv series. That's even before getting into things I can do outside of my home (well, not necessarily currently...). Instead of lamenting the games I can't play or ignoring the issues & playing them anyways, I'll just do something different, a majority of the time.

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Games like Nier and XB2 becoming hits are the ones that end up allowing more and more of these games to get made since it shows what a good amount of people apparantly want.

 

[Kyuuji]

Feel like this quote from a poster should be one of the nominees for the next threads title:



Context:

Spoiler

PlayStation 5 Showcase broadcasts live this Wednesday at 1pm Pacific Time News

Some places may do it, but Sony said they aren't going to have pre-orders start out of nowhere and will give people notice in advance. I noticed your avatar, have you seen this:

www.resetera.com

Being over 30 is a problem now...

Click to shrink...

Whew. That's a doozy. You imagine if you said this about Joel lol?

 

[Famassu]

Whew. That's a doozy. You imagine if you said this about Joel lol?

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I almost responded with a list of more mature male characters (Joel included) and a "I hope you had issues with these grandads as well", but then I did something better with my time.

 

[ShyMel]

This has been brushed upon a few times throughout these OTs -- asking to buy used is definitely a valid stance, but asking us to not buy them at all just isn't fair (and also addressed in the OP).
Sexism exists in almost every game in some form or another, and trying to avoid it entirely would pretty much mean just giving up gaming for good or sticking to extremely limited options that may not even be fun for us. Like, I'm just not much into most indies or western games; I don't care for the art direction a lot of the time, I don't like playing as generic middle aged white men, 2D games are harder for me to get into, etc etc. Versus with jprgs, I love the art styles, I love the epic stories and wild character designs (when the girls aren't stupidly sexualized), I love the combat systems, etc etc. If I want to be able to enjoy more than, like, idk just HZD? I kinda have to put up with some amount of bullshit.
Plus, women and those who are super against sexualization are already getting ignored by the devs & marketing as it is. It's not our money they're pandering to and angling for, they don't care whether they have it or not. So ultimately and unfortunately not buying them just isn't really gonna make a worthwhile statement or difference. If anything, women and critics leaving these gaming spaces due to not playing anything is just gonna make the problem worse.

And besides, perhaps the argument of 'moral responsibility' would be a bit different when applied to men, but as a woman I see no reason why I should give up what enjoyment I can get when I'm already on the shit side of the stick to begin with.

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Agreed. Unfortunately a lot of western games just do not appeal to me on a gameplay level. Something like GTA will never appeal to me, even if they improve how women are portrayed in the game. And there are western games that while I enjoyed, they also contained issues regarding the sexualization of women (the Batman games).

There are definitely JRPG series I have given up on over the years and titles that I played as a teen that I would not want to play now, but I do not think women just not purchasing the Tales of games for example would lead to any changes for the better. Something like Senran Kagura would have to be completely overhauled on a fundamental level to have its criticisms tackled and while other JRPG series definitely have work to do to improve their female characters, they are typically not created with the foundation being sexualization.

And while they typically do not contain overt sexualization of the main character, otome titles do often deal with common tropes in female target romance media that are not exactly pro-woman but I do not think anyone is going to try and tell women to no longer consume romcoms anytime soon.

 

[Rae]

I'm not sure how much is shown in the game itself but the characters pilot the mechs completely nude. The female characters are depicted much more sexually compared to their male counterparts.

The last thread had a brief discussion about a pre-order theme in Japan that was just a naked teenager leaning against mecha controls and it was borderline hentai, to the extent it was removed from the site. It was... something.

It seems like a really interesting game tainted by Vanillaware's penchant for being extremely horny for no reason.

EDIT: According to a post in that review thread the naked teenagers are the only thing in the game drawn by the notorious Dragon's Crown artist and the rest of the art is by two women? Well, that explains a lot.

Click to shrink...

Oof, I had no idea about the actual story of the game since I liked the art but yikes. I'll end up skipping it now that I know since it's just super creepy.

Almost a full set of armor lol.

 

[P-Tux7]

Thanks for the replies you two. I have two more questions I thought of:

1. If not buying the games won't solve any problems, how can I help in the fight to stop this sexualization? I'm glad that we have this thread, but not only will Japanese developers be unlikely to see it, but I don't know if people who CAN see it such as American developers will even care.

2. Why IS this stuff targeted to male players more? I don't think women have any less interest in seeing lurid content, right? Heck with games that are popular with men and women (Fate, Fire Emblem, etc.) you could even put such content in the same game without having to market it separately or make a new game. It sounds like a no-brainer. And that's before we add on how LGBT gamers spend more on gaming...

 

[NoSmallWave]

Feel like this quote from a poster should be one of the nominees for the next threads title:



Context:

Spoiler

PlayStation 5 Showcase broadcasts live this Wednesday at 1pm Pacific Time News

Some places may do it, but Sony said they aren't going to have pre-orders start out of nowhere and will give people notice in advance. I noticed your avatar, have you seen this:

www.resetera.com

Being over 30 is a problem now...

Click to shrink...

The only thing that makes that generic sci-fi TPS look interesting in any way is the Actual Adult Woman protagonist.

It's curious how in almost half a century of the mech genre existing this is the first property to tackle the subject of extreme heat in cockpits.

If I didn't know any better, I'd think it was just a lore excuse to strip down the girls or something.

Click to shrink...

Battletech has had heat management as a core mechanic from the beginning, way back in the 80's. The lore has the pilots wearing refrigerated suits, iirc, because that actually makes sense. Also, the pilots are adults because children shouldn't be piloting war machines ffs.

 

[Transistor]

Oof, I had no idea about the actual story of the game since I liked the art but yikes. I'll end up skipping it now that I know since it's just super creepy.

Almost a full set of armor lol.

Click to shrink...

This just boggles my mind. Like, it's 90% covered, but they just had to leave that bit open so you can tell she's wearing a thong.

 

[rras1994]

Thanks for the replies you two. I have two more questions I thought of:

1. If not buying the games won't solve any problems, how can I help in the fight to stop this sexualization? I'm glad that we have this thread, but not only will Japanese developers be unlikely to see it, but I don't know if people who CAN see it such as American developers will even care.

2. Why IS this stuff targeted to male players more? I don't think women have any less interest in seeing lurid content, right? Heck with games that are popular with men and women (Fate, Fire Emblem, etc.) you could even put such content in the same game without having to market it separately or make a new game. It sounds like a no-brainer. And that's before we add on how LGBT gamers spend more on gaming...

Click to shrink...

For point one, discussing stuff does help - it brings awareness and helps other consumers and developers be aware of the issues.It also helps point out products that treat women well or make an effort for their female audience which helps us as consumers to buy stuff that we like that also is a better representation of women which is useful for us and the company as we get games that we can love and the developer gets more sales. For real change it's often not big drastic action that changes things but many little moments over a long time. Unless a problem is discussed it can't be acknowledged and fixed. We may be a small thread in the large scheme of things but these talks don't just happen here. And slowly things are getting better, there are a lot more female protags for example than there were like ten years ago.

For second point, the simple answer is that for everything in the world the assumed default is male. Literally everything. I would strongly reccommend reading Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez as an excellant book on this subject. To elabourate more on why the gaming industry specifically targets the male demographic is by one key event: the gaming market crashed and Nintendo came up with a great way of marketing their product and start afresh, by marketing it as a toy for children. The problem is that the toy market is segregated and the Nintendo had to pick a side: boy or girl. They picked boy. Their strategy worked and they were very sucessful but from that gaming was seen as for boys and it became a viscious circle of continually marketing to boys (and teens and men they became as the years went by) as that was what worked previously and what their data was shown to work, they didn't try anything else. But then also the reason they didn't have data to show other things work is because they never tried to market to other groups. And by selectively targeting guys you also are likely going to get most of your workforce end up coming from that group as you kinda have to be a massive gaming fan to want to work in the gaming industry, so you will get a majority male workforce who will also make games for guys. So it's basically a self perpetrauting problem.

 

[Deleted member 56803]

Out of curiosity, and not to derail the thread, what anime or jrpgs actually do have good female characters in your opinion? For me, the only ones I can think of that are filled with depth and aren't fanservice topped (so no NGE) would be the works of Yoshitoshi ABe, Satoshi Kon, Maasaki Yuasa, and Kino's Journey. While I occassionally enjoy anime, I often find it to lack depth in regards to female characters.

 

[Deleted member 56803]

Thanks for the replies you two. I have two more questions I thought of:

1. If not buying the games won't solve any problems, how can I help in the fight to stop this sexualization? I'm glad that we have this thread, but not only will Japanese developers be unlikely to see it, but I don't know if people who CAN see it such as American developers will even care.

2. Why IS this stuff targeted to male players more? I don't think women have any less interest in seeing lurid content, right? Heck with games that are popular with men and women (Fate, Fire Emblem, etc.) you could even put such content in the same game without having to market it separately or make a new game. It sounds like a no-brainer. And that's before we add on how LGBT gamers spend more on gaming...

Click to shrink...

LGBT players put more in games? I'd be interested to read that data.

As for the question though, it is the unfortunate simplicity of the "default audience" mindset. You assume the average player is a straight, cis male, thus design with that group in mind. Even with the presentation of contradictory data, the bias remains.

 

[Conditional-Pancakes]

Discussion does truly help! But so does not buying a specific game that is problematic... One could argue that it's actually among the strongest signals to send to any for-profit company. The argument that not buying a problematic game doesn't help and that "sexism is everywhere so we should just buy it anyway" is so very bizarre..

 

[rras1994]

Discussion does truly help! But so does not buying a specific game that is problematic... One could argue that it's actually among the strongest signals to send to any for-profit company. The argument that not buying a problematic games doesn't help and that "sexism is everywhere so we might just as well buy it!" is so very bizarre..

Click to shrink...

Unless the devs know why you aren't buying something, it's actually not very useful just not to buy something and they will continue to focus on the market that is buying their games and just assume that women aren't worth targeting - something that has been the common marketing mantra for decades in this industry. If they see a larger audience for something they are more likely to target them. Not buying a game that has sexist content in it would literally mean that you can't buy any games and would be shut out of an entire medium - everyone has there lines in the sand on what their dealbreaker is, heck alot of the games criticised in this thread are some of the posters in this thread's favourite games. They criticise them because they want those bits to improve. And problematic is an ill defined term that is different to everybody. I'm not going to criticise people in this thread for still buying games with some sexist content in it, especially when they often are the ones that are criticising it and pointing it out in the first place because they deserve to get to play games they enjoy,

 

[ClickyCal']

Discussion does truly help! But so does not buying a specific game that is problematic... One could argue that it's actually among the strongest signals to send to any for-profit company. The argument that not buying a problematic game doesn't help and that "sexism is everywhere so we should just buy it anyway" is so very bizarre..

Click to shrink...

Especially in cases like Fire Emblem and Xenoblade. Niche series that got bigger recently, hugely in part due to the waifuism culture aspect.

 

[Dary]

Especially in cases like Fire Emblem and Xenoblade. Niche series that got bigger recently, hugely in part due to the waifuism culture aspect.

Click to shrink...

If that was actually the case, Idea Factory would be bigger than Square-Enix XD

 

[Ctrl Alt Del]

It's a tiny celebration that Ryza at least looks like she can fit all of her organs in her body in their correct locations? It is still a sexist trainwreck beyond that.

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Nay, I don't think so particularly. In my society, the "thicc bod" is seen as a desirable trait - and has been for many years, so it's not even really noveau.

 

[kafiend]

Unless the devs know why you aren't buying something, it's actually not very useful just not to buy something and they will continue to focus on the market that is buying their games and just assume that women aren't worth targeting.

Click to shrink...

Or even worse, assume low sales just shows that their jiggle physics needs more jiggle.

 

[Disclaimer]

Especially in cases like Fire Emblem and Xenoblade. Niche series that got bigger recently, hugely in part due to the waifuism culture aspect.

Click to shrink...

'Hugely in part'? [Citation needed.] Last I checked Three Houses sold considerably better than Awakening/Fates, and its female character designs were way less sexualized overall, outside of a couple dumb villains with 30 seconds of screentime.

These successful anime games do not need rampant objectification to be successful, and attributing their successes to it is groundless and counter-productive. Anyone buying these games for the objectification is in the minority, and we shouldn't make their voices out to be larger while ignoring the amount of people expressing uncomfortability with or opposition to it.

A lost sale without direct communication of why it was lost isn't helping any cause, and such direct communication is largely unavailable. Best we can do is be vocally critical and push for the change we want to see, while making individual choices not to support things that're beyond our personal bounds of tolerance.

 

[Conditional-Pancakes]

Unless the devs know why you aren't buying something, it's actually not very useful just not to buy something and they will continue to focus on the market that is buying their games and just assume that women aren't worth targeting - something that has been the common marketing mantra for decades in this industry. If they see a larger audience for something they are more likely to target them. Not buying a game that has sexist content in it would literally mean that you can't buy any games and would be shut out of an entire medium - everyone has there lines in the sand on what their dealbreaker is, heck alot of the games criticised in this thread are some of the posters in this thread's favourite games. They criticise them because they want those bits to improve. And problematic is an ill defined term that is different to everybody. I'm not going to criticise people in this thread for still buying games with some sexist content in it, especially when they often are the ones that are criticising it and pointing it out in the first place because they deserve to get to play games they enjoy,

Click to shrink...

Everybody has their own threshold about stuff. It's perfectly alright. But once somebody has acknowledged that a specific thing is problematic according to their own value system, going so far as to talk about it with other people on a forum, adopting the attitude of "it is what it is... there's nothing I can do... please developers take my money anyway" is really, really strange to me. And don't get me wrong, it's this attitude that I criticize the most. Not necessarily the "people in this thread", like you say.

Keep in mind that I have somewhat "new eyes" about some of this stuff as I haven't really played a lot of AAA games in the last few years (barring some exceptions. I did play Uncharted 4, Lost Legacy, everything TLOU, and everything Life Is Strange). And what these "new eyes" are seeing is some stuff that is truly mind-boggling about women representation. And I also see a lot of desensitization and resigned attitudes.

And I absolutely don't agree that the actions you take on a personal level – like not buying a game – don't have any impact. You must act where you can. Why are we recycling and composting? Why do we try to buy as local as possible? Why do we choose buying some brands or types of products over other ones? Individual actions are important and do make a huge difference in the long term.

So as everything that brought real change in society during the last 70 years, improving things will only be possible with the combination of discussions AND personal and collective actions. Discussion by itself is not enough. Or we'll really still be here years from now, in OT number 14, posting the same kind of disgusting pictures.

 

[KujoJosuke]

I bought Xenoblade 2 because I loved Xenoblade 1. I really was not expecting it to have character designs like it did. XB1 had some sketchy stuff but not to the extent 2 did.

I still played it a ton because I liked the combat and the music.

 

[Kyuuji]

LGBT players put more in games? I'd be interested to read that data.

Click to shrink...

Out: Study shows 10% of gamers are LGBT, spend more money on gaming than straights, prefer console gaming, etc.

Out.com has posted an article about a recent study done by Nielsen that shows that 10% of participants identify as LGBT, that queer gamers spend more money on gaming than their straight counterparts, and that console gaming is the avenue of choice, among other things. Some highlights...

www.resetera.com

 

[ClickyCal']

'Hugely in part'? [Citation needed.] Last I checked Three Houses sold considerably better than Awakening/Fates, and its female character designs were way less sexualized overall, outside of a couple dumb villains with 30 seconds of screentime.

These successful anime games do not need rampant objectification to be successful, and attributing their successes to it is groundless and counter-productive. Anyone buying these games for the objectification is in the minority, and we shouldn't make their voices out to be larger while ignoring the amount of people expressing uncomfortability with or opposition to it.

A lost sale without direct communication of why it was lost isn't helping any cause, and such direct communication is largely unavailable. Best we can do is be vocally critical and push for the change we want to see, while making individual choices not to support things that're beyond our personal bounds of tolerance.

Click to shrink...

I don't know, everything I have seen is that both series got big with games that exploited those kind of things a lot. Maybe I'm wrong though.

 

[Deleted member 56803]

Out: Study shows 10% of gamers are LGBT, spend more money on gaming than straights, prefer console gaming, etc.

Out.com has posted an article about a recent study done by Nielsen that shows that 10% of participants identify as LGBT, that queer gamers spend more money on gaming than their straight counterparts, and that console gaming is the avenue of choice, among other things. Some highlights...

www.resetera.com

Click to shrink...

Thanks!

 

[Famassu]

I don't know, everything I have seen is that both series got big with games that exploited those kind of things a lot. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Click to shrink...

Almost everything on Switch has somehow gotten a more or less noticeable boost in popularity. And although Fire Emblem's... awakening into becoming a hugely popular franchise began on 3DS already, I'm not sure I'd attribute most of that to the most problematic aspects (I.e. objectification of women/sexualization of young girls). Being able to do some coupling boosted it definitely, but I doubt that's what caused most of it. It could just be that it was The Perfect Time for the franchise to blow up. Awakening is the first (widely available) entry to the franchise since Radiant Dawn, after years of more FE propaganda in Smash Bros. It's also specifically made to make the franchise more approachable in terms of (broader choice of) difficulty, so more casual strategy RPG fans had easier time getting into it (probably helped it get better review scores as well). 3DS also was kinda lacking in even somewhat bigger budget stuff, so I'd say anytime anything more notable came out, it got a second look from a lot of people who might've skipped it if there were more big games around.

 

[P-Tux7]

LGBT players put more in games? I'd be interested to read that data.

As for the question though, it is the unfortunate simplicity of the "default audience" mindset. You assume the average player is a straight, cis male, thus design with that group in mind. Even with the presentation of contradictory data, the bias remains.

Click to shrink...

Here we go:

Out: Study shows 10% of gamers are LGBT, spend more money on gaming than straights, prefer console gaming, etc.

Out.com has posted an article about a recent study done by Nielsen that shows that 10% of participants identify as LGBT, that queer gamers spend more money on gaming than their straight counterparts, and that console gaming is the avenue of choice, among other things. Some highlights...

www.resetera.com

Hmm, the "prefers console" thing puts a dent in my ideas though.

Out of curiosity, and not to derail the thread, what anime or jrpgs actually do have good female characters in your opinion? For me, the only ones I can think of that are filled with depth and aren't fanservice topped (so no NGE) would be the works of Yoshitoshi ABe, Satoshi Kon, Maasaki Yuasa, and Kino's Journey. While I occassionally enjoy anime, I often find it to lack depth in regards to female characters.

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Skies of Arcadia (Legends) seems light on it.

They criticise them because they want those bits to improve. And problematic is an ill defined term that is different to everybody. I'm not going to criticise people in this thread for still buying games with some sexist content in it, especially when they often are the ones that are criticising it and pointing it out in the first place because they deserve to get to play games they enjoy,

Click to shrink...

Oh certainly. I'm sorry if it came off like I was criticizing anyone for buying games, I just wondered if boycotting them was a more efficacious choice. I hope for whatever it's worth that when I said I don't do modern gaming I also meant that I have not downloaded or partook in any fanservice-y F2P games... or really any F2P games.

 

[NoSmallWave]

Unless the devs know why you aren't buying something, it's actually not very useful just not to buy something and they will continue to focus on the market that is buying their games and just assume that women aren't worth targeting - something that has been the common marketing mantra for decades in this industry. If they see a larger audience for something they are more likely to target them.

Click to shrink...

Sorry, this part of your post doesn't make any sense at all to me. By this logic, I should be buying all of the most racist, sexist games made because if they get a bigger audience they will make the games less racist and sexist somehow? How exactly does that work? I saw people making this argument about Ubisoft games after it was revealed they were just a giant sex creep factory and I just ... what? Very confused.

Like, I get it, no ethical consumption under capitalism, white supremacist / patriarchal society, etc. We all make our own choices about this stuff and decide what we are comfortable with and what's too much. That part of your post seems pretty obvious and its good to be critical of things we enjoy while still enjoying them. But the idea that we *have* to buy and play these games or they'll make them worse is, at best, counter-intuitive. Its just as likely that devs and marketing teams will see women buying sexist games as an indicator that women are fine with it and its not an issue.

 

[rras1994]

Sorry, this part of your post doesn't make any sense at all to me. By this logic, I should be buying all of the most racist, sexist games made because if they get a bigger audience they will make the games less racist and sexist somehow? How exactly does that work? I saw people making this argument about Ubisoft games after it was revealed they were just a giant sex creep factory and I just ... what? Very confused.

Like, I get it, no ethical consumption under capitalism, white supremacist / patriarchal society, etc. We all make our own choices about this stuff and decide what we are comfortable with and what's too much. That part of your post seems pretty obvious and its good to be critical of things we enjoy while still enjoying them. But the idea that we *have* to buy and play these games or they'll make them worse is, at best, counter-intuitive. Its just as likely that devs and marketing teams will see women buying sexist games as an indicator that women are fine with it and its not an issue.

Click to shrink...

It's more that dev's actually need to know why you didn't buy their games or spent less on them going forward. They need to know you were a potential customer in the first place: basically you need to tell them someway whether that's in surveys, social media or some other way of getting info to them (btw this is not to go spam random devs who work there, there are official channels for feedback) Not buying stuff alone is useless, the dev can assume you didn't buy for another reason and can end up doubling down on what other fans say they like. We don't have to buy anything but we need to make it clear that we are potential customers with cash which means not completely leaving the hobby entirely which honestly the suggestion of not paying games with problematic content is because pretty much all games have something in them that's bad. It us to draw the line, and improtantly let devs know why.

 

[Conditional-Pancakes]

It's more that dev's actually need to know why you didn't buy their games or spent less on them going forward. They need to know you were a potential customer in the first place: basically you need to tell them someway whether that's in surveys, social media or some other way of getting info to them (btw this is not to go spam random devs who work there, there are official channels for feedback) Not buying stuff alone is useless, the dev can assume you didn't buy for another reason and can end up doubling down on what other fans say they like. We don't have to buy anything but we need to make it clear that we are potential customers with cash which means not completely leaving the hobby entirely which honestly the suggestion of not paying games with problematic content is because pretty much all games have something in them that's bad. It us to draw the line, and improtantly let devs know why.

Click to shrink...

But still buying their games while discussing about the problems with your friends online don't send them any signal either. Actually it's worse because they now have your money. It needs to be discussions AND personal actions.