Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."

[ShivUK]

and of course shitty journalists and youtubers will fall for it because the hype machine has to be running at all times, and "apologies" about so called "sex crimes" are just politics, who cares, gotta play that new video game

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I guess it should be "journalists" - there aren't many folks for whom I wouldn't use the quotes because the reality is that their livelihoods are dependent on getting and keeping traffic.

Greasing the wheels of the hype machine is their best way of doing that with their current readers - there's a real chance that reminding people of what's going on or calling companies out in every "omg new game" article will cause their users to go elsewhere.

I get that there's a moral imperative for them to do so, but is it obvious that they should put their own jobs at risk because Ubisoft and others are shitty companies?

 

[esserius]

I found Guillemot's apology cynical in its timing. Why not a couple of weeks ago? It just came across as 'we're sorry but watch our new video about our new products, that'll make any reference to this disappear very quickly'

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I've found that, after looking at my games of the decade list, that I just don't need to really play video games generally anymore. These companies, whose culture is shit, seems to also produce mostly shit products, in my experience. I found that while I played so many of the games on the list in that thread, only a handful actually stood out in any meaningful way to me. I think about how many games I've played over the past decade... and five-ish stuck out to me. Maybe just me getting older, I dunno. Still really enjoy Chrono Trigger and Ogre Battle though! Back when Quest... existed.

I wish the big AAA industry didn't suck so much. Can't even remember the last time Square put out a game I really wanted to play. Or a time when Ubisoft wasn't full of shitheels. I guess that's never really been the case though - we're just in a society that doesn't have to be silent about it anymore. It is a deeply fucked system that somehow seems to continue to put rapists in positions of power.

 

[Messofanego]

I really liked the Scott Pilgrim game but the re release seems kind of lazy anyway, like no new content at all right? Just the original game and its dlc's. I'd want playable Stacey Pilgrim and maybe some bonus post game levels or something at least right?

The biggest loss in terms of any kind of choice to stop supporting ubisoft is definitely Rainbow 6 Siege, which is both an extremely good game and kind of the perfect game for "women entering combat in practical clothing same as the men".

Edit: I wanted to clarify this post, that I was not trying to say "nah but siege is good so keep supporting them". More just trying to say that losing that is the one that hurts the most.

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The core artists of the original game now work at Tribute, so maybe that stops them from making new content?

 

[misho8723]

Lizzy Wizzy (new design) from Cyberpunk 2077

 

[NovumVeritas]

Lizzy Wizzy (new design) from Cyberpunk 2077

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Is that good design? Don't know?

 

[Shining Star]

Lizzy Wizzy (new design) from Cyberpunk 2077

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Who is Grimes, who is Lizzy Wizzy, is she dead? Did she fall in the tub of liquid metal?

 

[Flannel_and_Assam]

Who is Grimes, who is Lizzy Wizzy, is she dead? Did she fall in the tub of liquid metal?

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Grimes is a Canadian musician who is in a relationship with Elon Musk. She's voicing Lizzy Wizzy. She discussed her character's backstory on a livestream back in February before it was suddenly pulled, so dunno if it's going to be accurate or not.

Grimes (aka Claire Boucher) said she plays Lizzy Wizzy, a pop star who killed herself on stage -- doctors performed "emergency surgery" to replace her whole body with cybernetics, and she went on to continue the gig and her career as a cyborg. It's one of the "greatest pieces of performance art ever made," Grimes said.

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[Shining Star]

I get it, I guess thats just the kind of game it is haha

 

[RecLib]

I hate that Elon Musk has to be mentioned whenever Grimes comes up. Like I get it, Musk is really shitty and obviously being in a long term relationship with someone shitty reflects poorly on you. But a handful of Grimes' songs are genuinely cool and it always feels a little bad like... she was someone before she starting dating a more famous man you know?

 

[NovumVeritas]

I hate that Elon Musk has to be mentioned whenever Grimes comes up. Like I get it, Musk is really shitty and obviously being in a long term relationship with someone shitty reflects poorly on you. But a handful of Grimes' songs are genuinely cool and it always feels a little bad like... she was someone before she starting dating a more famous man you know?

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What kind of genre is Grimes doing ? I never heard from her before to be honest.

 

[misho8723]

Is that good design? Don't know?

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I mean, for a character as Lizzy Wizzy is, I personally really like that design

"Lizzy Wizzy once committed suicide while on stage. She was dead for an hour but was fortunately revived by a Trauma Team group who replaced her entire body with cyberware. She then finished the concert in her new body. This led to the performance being considered one of the greatest forms of art.
Lizzy Wizzy has a detachable cybernetic jaw and uses a full-body replacement in order to become her signature chrome form."

 

[NovumVeritas]

I mean, for a character as Lizzy Wizzy is, I personally really like that design

"Lizzy Wizzy once committed suicide while on stage. She was dead for an hour but was fortunately revived by a Trauma Team group who replaced her entire body with cyberware. She then finished the concert in her new body. This led to the performance being considered one of the greatest forms of art.
Lizzy Wizzy has a detachable cybernetic jaw and uses a full-body replacement in order to become her signature chrome form."

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That sounds pretty decent. I am looking forward to meeting her in game. Her story is quite intriguing.

 

[Flannel_and_Assam]

I hate that Elon Musk has to be mentioned whenever Grimes comes up. Like I get it, Musk is really shitty and obviously being in a long term relationship with someone shitty reflects poorly on you. But a handful of Grimes' songs are genuinely cool and it always feels a little bad like... she was someone before she starting dating a more famous man you know?

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Sorry. I'll be honest, I'd never heard of her before she dated Musk and had the Twitter controversies with the lolicon and such so my frame of reference comes solely from her Musk connection. Same as I really only know Alexis Ohanian as Serena Williams' husband, despite co-founding Reddit with Steve Huffman (who I know far more about).

 

[RecLib]

Cyberpunk's obvious problems aside, the idea of a musician killing themselves on stage for publicity is a really good idea for that setting.

What kind of genre is Grimes doing ? I never heard from her before to be honest.

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Its like electronic pop music. Its not exactly my go to genre, and I only actually like a handful of her songs but she is a legitimate artist on her own right, you know? She does all her own producing on the music too, which is neat.

 

[Conditional-Pancakes]

I hate that Elon Musk has to be mentioned whenever Grimes comes up. Like I get it, Musk is really shitty and obviously being in a long term relationship with someone shitty reflects poorly on you. But a handful of Grimes' songs are genuinely cool and it always feels a little bad like... she was someone before she starting dating a more famous man you know?

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I agree! It seems impossible to talk about Grimes without bringing Musk in the conversation for no reason at all... :\

What kind of genre is Grimes doing ? I never heard from her before to be honest.

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There's a lot of what she does that I like. She really is eccentric, though. And her new stuff is a bit different.
Some of her best songs (it's music, so you might need to watch them directly on Youtube):








Edit: beaten by RecLib, lol!

 

[NovumVeritas]

Cyberpunk's obvious problems aside, the idea of a musician killing themselves on stage for publicity is a really good idea for that setting.




Its like electronic pop music. Its not exactly my go to genre, and I only actually like a handful of her songs but she is a legitimate artist on her own right, you know?

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Thanks for the links. I will give it certainly a listen. Sure never stated otherwise :)

 

[RecLib]

Edit: beaten by RecLib, lol!

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Both the songs I picked were even in the 3 you picked. Similar opinion on Grimes' songs.

 

[Flannel_and_Assam]

Now I feel like shit.

 

[Conditional-Pancakes]

Now I feel like shit.

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Oh no! Please don't! It's just a phenomenon that is very noticeable. Grimes is a full-blown artist, you know? And it's a bit disheartening for people that knew Grimes from before her relationship with Musk to have to talk about him every single time her name is brought up. Now you know! lol! No need to feel bad :)

 

[RecLib]

Now I feel like shit.

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I hope you don't feel like we're attacking you, I don't think you meant anything... bad. Like, you're a woman, so I'm certainly not accusing you of thinking of women only by who their man is or something like that.
Its just like.. a larger cultural thing right. That every time Grimes' is mentioned Musk is always mentioned now, and I kind of wanted to push back against that in general. Sorry if it felt like I was going after you.

 

[spman2099]

Lizzy Wizzy (new design) from Cyberpunk 2077

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I really, really dig that design.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

I hate that Elon Musk has to be mentioned whenever Grimes comes up. Like I get it, Musk is really shitty and obviously being in a long term relationship with someone shitty reflects poorly on you. But a handful of Grimes' songs are genuinely cool and it always feels a little bad like... she was someone before she starting dating a more famous man you know?

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[Messofanego]

Sorry. I'll be honest, I'd never heard of her before she dated Musk and had the Twitter controversies with the lolicon and such so my frame of reference comes solely from her Musk connection. Same as I really only know Alexis Ohanian as Serena Williams' husband, despite co-founding Reddit with Steve Huffman (who I know far more about).

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I mean, it's fair to bring up stupid shit Grimes does like the lolicon stuff.

 

[Kyuuji]

Not going to put praise on CDPR when they're content to create caricatures of other women to promote their game and pander to alt-right chuds via. Especially when they do so under the guise of diversity and inclusivity but at the expense of it. In addition to speaking to the importance of reflecting varied political sympathies from staff at a time where the country they're based in is running LGBTQ+ people out of it. Fuck all of that noise.

 

[Persephone]

i believe we as a society can, should, must and will dunk on grimes dating elon musk at every opportunity. no sympathy for bootlickers. also cdpr is shit and not only does cyberpunk look like a racist transmisogynistic mess, it also just. doesnt look like it understands cyberpunk beyond robots and lasers. tell that to era tho. MUH VIDDY GAEM

 

[esserius]

i believe we as a society can, should, must and will dunk on grimes dating elon musk at every opportunity. no sympathy for bootlickers. also cdpr is shit and not only does cyberpunk look like a racist transmisogynistic mess, it also just. doesnt look like it understands cyberpunk beyond robots and lasers. tell that to era tho. MUH VIDDY GAEM

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Honestly I'm thinking this more and more pretty much every time I see anything new about CP2077. It just doesn't get cyberpunk. It's like... well, capitalistic cyberpunk. Afraid to say anything of note because we need to be able to slap people with our wallets. It misses the grunge, it misses the dystopian cynicism... and it just replaces it with, "hey look, capitalism! haha right?" It's cynical towards cynicism, in a time where we are all collectively experiencing an actual dystopian nightmare. The cynicism is justified CDPR; fuck off with that weak shit.

 

[Pendragon_1095]

I've been playing ToV and Rita joined my party and I'm disappointed in her character so far. I love her design (the top half at least) and voice but her personality and attitude are disgusting. Like, she pushed one of her teammates in a poisonous flower and didn't give two shits. Mind you that team member is the youngest one. And she keeps hitting him for no reason. So far the other female member is boring so right now it kinda sucks I'm only enjoying the males.

 

[Redcrayon]

I've been playing ToV and Rita joined my party and I'm disappointed in her character so far. I love her design (the top half at least) and voice but her personality and attitude are disgusting. Like, she pushed one of her teammates in a poisonous flower and didn't give two shits. Mind you that team member is the youngest one. And she keeps hitting him for no reason. So far the other female member is boring so right now it kinda sucks I'm only enjoying the males.

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I played it through on Switch last year. I kinda lost interest after the generic scantily-clad fanservice elf warrior (Judith?) joined. At that point the amount of party members I disliked either the design or the personality of had reached critical mass, and I trudged to the end only because everyone kept telling me it was the best Tales game. Damning with faint praise.

 

[misho8723]

i believe we as a society can, should, must and will dunk on grimes dating elon musk at every opportunity. no sympathy for bootlickers. also cdpr is shit and not only does cyberpunk look like a racist transmisogynistic mess, it also just. doesnt look like it understands cyberpunk beyond robots and lasers. tell that to era tho. MUH VIDDY GAEM

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Ok, fair game.. but please explain me how does CP2077 look racist?

 

[Mivey]

That quote in the title is giving me migraine.
Hella respect for the people keeping this OT going.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

i believe we as a society can, should, must and will dunk on grimes dating elon musk at every opportunity. no sympathy for bootlickers. also cdpr is shit and not only does cyberpunk look like a racist transmisogynistic mess, it also just. doesnt look like it understands cyberpunk beyond robots and lasers. tell that to era tho. MUH VIDDY GAEM

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On one hand, Grimes is someone that has been a victim of abuse (and her relationship with Musk seems to be really bad) so I have sympathy for her. On the other, she's an adult and has made poor choices.

 

[mawilite]

I played it through on Switch last year. I kinda lost interest after the generic scantily-clad fanservice elf warrior (Judith?) joined. At that point the amount of party members I disliked either the design or the personality of had reached critical mass, and I trudged to the end only because everyone kept telling me it was the best Tales game. Damning with faint praise.

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I'm a series fan and from the things that bother you with Vesperia it sounds to me like the rest of the series probably wouldn't be your thing either, but regarding the overblown praise for Vesperia that's always come off to me as people just really liking that game's main character more than anything. Personally the mage and the princess of that game were the only parts I really liked, (and only because they're really easy to read as being lesbians) but both the gameplay and writing of Vesperia is really messy, honestly, and I personally don't think it deserves as much praise as it gets. (To be entirely fair to Vesperia, and I'm really not trying to bash it, inconsistent writing and gameplay is kind of a staple of the franchise, just that it manifests in different ways in every installment, and in Vesperia's case I find that its problems are really widely overlooked by the series fans.)

I enjoy the Tales franchise as an anime RPG series that consistently has a decent balance of female to male characters, and I'm a person with high tolerance for anime stereotypes so I can mostly enjoy the writing and characters. It is unfortunately probably one of the least messy longer-running JRPG franchises in terms of treatment of female characters, but it does still have annoying instances of revealing outfits, female leads being subservient to the male lead for no other reason than that he's the male lead, female villains overwhelmingly being one-note "seductive" henchmen obsessed with their evil bosses, and that... I don't really know how to describe it, but that type of anime writing about how "girls should be," you know. Every single female party member bantering about their weight and appearance, acting like "girl's feelings" are some weird sacred mystery, and having to act like babysitters for the male characters regardless what their actual personality is. That type of stuff.

 

[Redcrayon]

I'm a series fan and from the things that bother you with Vesperia it sounds to me like the rest of the series probably wouldn't be your thing either, but regarding the overblown praise for Vesperia that's always come off to me as people just really liking that game's main character more than anything. Personally the mage and the princess of that game were the only parts I really liked, (and only because they're really easy to read as being lesbians) but both the gameplay and writing of Vesperia is really messy, honestly, and I personally don't think it deserves as much praise as it gets. (To be entirely fair to Vesperia, and I'm really not trying to bash it, inconsistent writing and gameplay is kind of a staple of the franchise, just that it manifests in different ways in every installment, and in Vesperia's case I find that its problems are really widely overlooked by the series fans.)

I enjoy the Tales franchise as an anime RPG series that consistently has a decent balance of female to male characters, and I'm a person with high tolerance for anime stereotypes so I can mostly enjoy the writing and characters. It is unfortunately probably one of the least messy longer-running JRPG franchises in terms of treatment of female characters, but it does still have annoying instances of revealing outfits, female leads being subservient to the male lead for no other reason than that he's the male lead, and that... I don't really know how to describe it, but that type of anime writing about how "girls should be," you know. Every single female party member bantering about their weight and appearance and having to act like babysitters for the male characters regardless what their actual personality is. That type of stuff.

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Of the four Ive played, I enjoyed Hearts the most, I'm assuming that's probably not seen as a great one by more knowledgable Tales fans :D My tolerance for anime tropes is very low but I do have a weakness for cartoony adventure in general, agree with your post entirely.

 

[Persephone]

Ok, fair game.. but please explain me how does CP2077 look racist?

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i'm not rly the person to ask since i'm white but i've seen concern that the game's depiction of poc is stereotypical and racist (e.g. indian cab driver, black voodoo guy, latinx gangster who drops random spanish words in sentences etc.). cdpr also having recently compared elves in the witcher to black people doesn't help

 

[RecLib]

it also just. doesnt look like it understands cyberpunk beyond robots and lasers.

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It is kind of amazing to be making a game with 'punk' in the name, and declare it to be apolitical.

 

[misho8723]

i'm not rly the person to ask since i'm white but i've seen concern that the game's depiction of poc is stereotypical and racist (e.g. indian cab driver, black voodoo guy, latinx gangster who drops random spanish words in sentences etc.). cdpr also having recently compared elves in the witcher to black people doesn't help

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Oh, yeah, I understand the concerns .. but I mean, we have already seen many black characters from the game that have different backgrounds and positions/professions, the opinions about Jackie's usage of random spanish words are varied to say the least and about Indian characters we don't know many informations at this moment..
And about that CDPR comment about elves and black people - well, it sounds probably strange to people from the West now but here in Slavic countries the different races in the Witcher books were definitely seen and compared to real racial problems that many different minorities in the world faced in the past and in the times that the books were written .. in the 80' and 90' there were basically no books in Slavic countries that would talk about racial tensions, racism and oppresion of the minorities.. the Witcher books were basically one of the few that would introduced these things to the people in Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, etc.. Sapkowski definitely used his knowledge about racial oppresion and racism when he wrote about the races in his books.. he freely traveled the world when only a small handful of people could from the Iron Curtain countries so he had personal experiences that he could use in writing his books.. many people in those countries thanks to these books learned many things about racism that they wouldn't had any other way.. so yeah, it's weird to hear that comparison for someone who is from the West, but in Central/Eastern Europe it was always a part when talking and analyzing the Witcher books

 

[Persephone]

another day another easy mode thread full of gatekeeping and casual ableism

 

[purseowner]

Fuck Cyberpunk 2077.

Saw this new Fist of the North Star Warriors game visual on Twitter:

It's not like I expect anything positive in this regard to come from Fist of the North Star of all things, but whatever the character on the right is or isn't wearing on her lower half is not great.

 

[ClickyCal']

another day another easy mode thread full of gatekeeping and casual ableism

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Yea I know that this thread isn't about that, but it can't be understated how much of an issue it is here. Plus in that thread about the best ps4 games, posts like "They weren't afraid to make bloodborne be a game that not everyone can beat." Like that is a good thing.

 

[EddyLovesTunaRolls]

Fuck Cyberpunk 2077.

Saw this new Fist of the North Star Warriors game visual on Twitter:

It's not like I expect anything positive in this regard to come from Fist of the North Star of all things, but whatever the character on the right is or isn't wearing on her lower half is not great.

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That's one of her older designs. I guess they thought that wasn't sexy enough.

 

[Persephone]

Yea I know that this thread isn't about that, but it can't be understated how much of an issue it is here. Plus in that thread about the best ps4 games, posts like "They weren't afraid to make bloodborne be a game that not everyone can beat." Like that is a good thing.

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honestly I'm fine with discussing that kind of thing here bc feminism that isn't intersectional is bullshit

 

[PhillyCheeseHorse]

Honestly I'm thinking this more and more pretty much every time I see anything new about CP2077. It just doesn't get cyberpunk. It's like... well, capitalistic cyberpunk. Afraid to say anything of note because we need to be able to slap people with our wallets. It misses the grunge, it misses the dystopian cynicism... and it just replaces it with, "hey look, capitalism! haha right?" It's cynical towards cynicism, in a time where we are all collectively experiencing an actual dystopian nightmare. The cynicism is justified CDPR; fuck off with that weak shit.

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This all the way, I wish more games adapted the spirit of cyberpunk over just the aesthetic. A lot of older Cyberpunk hit the mark because it was reflecting realities people were actually experiencing. It took hints from modern aesthetics and attempted to extrapolate what would happen to them (since it was the 80s, lots of neon, brash advertising and Japanese stylings). Yet, most of the neon brash AAA cyberpunk we get these days just... looks like the 80s with extra steps. It feels like a flat caricature of that time period's anxieties, as opposed to an addressing of our own. Weirdly enough, the new Deus Ex games are as close as I've felt to a big game dev trying to actually modernize cyberpunk in a meaningful way (clumsy apartheid marketing and muddled writing notwithstanding). On the smaller scale, Umurangi Generation still uses a lot of similar 80s cyberpunk cues, but feels so much more raw and honest about the fuckery of rampant capitalism. Cyberpunk 2077 feels like the cyberpunk equivalent of "wow, cool robot!" without a hint of irony.

 

[RecLib]

another day another easy mode thread full of gatekeeping and casual ableism

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Are we talking about that thread where the guy thought that a tutorial counted as an accessibility feature? I didn't read past the op because I could see in my minds eye exactly how the rest of that thread would go, but the op's take was especially strange. Like he thinks people with physical impairments that might make the souls games out of their reach just.... needed a better tutorial. what?


I love the souls games and wouldn't turn on any features that made the game easier personally, those options being there would not change my experience. It is insane to me that it is so hard for souls bro's to grasp that your game doesn't change if there are difficulty options you don't use. Like Celeste right, Celeste was this amazing brutal precision platformer game that was like... perfect just the way it was. It also had a bunch of options you could turn on to make the game easier if you wanted them.

 

[Dary]

another day another easy mode thread full of gatekeeping and casual ableism

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One of the more amusing aspects of my visual impairment is that games always play like they're a dodgy, low-res ports with half-second input lag, running at 30fps. Y'know, the sort of things that Gamers™ would normally claim makes something "unplayable"...

 

[Redcrayon]

One of the more amusing aspects of my visual impairment is that games always play like they're a dodgy, low-res ports with half-second input lag, running at 30fps. Y'know, the sort of things that Gamers™ would normally claim makes something "unplayable"...

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My eyesight is so poor these days that my main complaint with games is small text in games, particularly text-heavy ones with complex status screens like RPGs and strategy games. Seeing as such games then get ported across various systems, I make a point of recognising when developers have actually gone in and offered an option to increase it, rather than just thinking it's an artistic choice to have minuscule use of modern, thin typefaces.

Like, The Outer Worlds was plagued with issues across framerates and graphics, the Switch version looked awful. But I don't care about that stuff, I played plenty of slow, shitty looking games in the 80s and 90s, what made it great for me is that I could increase type size for legibility, something tons of critically-acclaimed RPGs ported from PC fail to do. This also rarely gets flagged up in reviews.

 

[Conditional-Pancakes]

A lot of people don't care in significant ways about things that aren't directly about them. A lot of men don't care about the implications of how women are depicted in their games, so they won't care much about people needing accessibility features and options in their games either. They say they care, of course... as long as nothing really changes or affects something they like.

At least we've seen real progress on the accessibility front, with companies making the choice to put real and significant efforts towards that. Take what Naughty Dog is doing, for example. Just look at all the features they put in TLOU Part 2:

The Last of Us Part II - PS4 Games | PlayStation

Get The Last of Us Part II, Action, Adventure game for PS4 console from the official PlayStation website. Explore The Last of Us Part II game detail, demo, images, videos, reviews.

www.playstation.com

And it did affect lives. The first time I saw this video of a blind player discovering these accessibility features it legit made me cry:

 

[ClickyCal']

A lot of people don't care in significant ways about things that aren't directly about them. A lot of men don't care about the implications of how women are depicted in their games, so they won't care much about people needing accessibility features and options in their games either. They say they care, of course... as long as nothing really changes or affects something they like.

At least we've seen real progress on the accessibility front, with companies making the choice to put real and significant efforts towards that. Take what Naughty Dog is doing, for example. Just look at all the features they put in TLOU Part 2:

The Last of Us Part II - PS4 Games | PlayStation

Get The Last of Us Part II, Action, Adventure game for PS4 console from the official PlayStation website. Explore The Last of Us Part II game detail, demo, images, videos, reviews.

www.playstation.com

And it did affect lives. The first time I saw this video of a blind player discovering these accessibility features it legit made me cry:

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Yea...I'll take a game literally anyone can play instead of bragging about how so many people can't play souls or booodborne. Not sure what that is to brag about.

 

[RecLib]

Souls fandom went off the deep end because Dark Souls intentionally marketed itself to inflate the ego's of people who play it. This game is so hard! Prepare to die! You're so tough and a real gamer for playing this game!

Demons' Souls, as I remember it anyway, just kind of came out and was a relatively tough game without all the fucking pomp in the marketing, and the (admittedly much smaller and niche) fandom for that game never had any of the toxicity you see from souls fans now.

 

[sensui-tomo]

Fuck Cyberpunk 2077.

Saw this new Fist of the North Star Warriors game visual on Twitter:

It's not like I expect anything positive in this regard to come from Fist of the North Star of all things, but whatever the character on the right is or isn't wearing on her lower half is not great.

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Just remember Koei-tecmo were the people who thought "Hey lets give a character the outfit they wore during a rape scene for a preorder bonus" -_- ..... I'm still confused how anyone thought that was a good idea in any way.

 

[Shining Star]

I'm a series fan and from the things that bother you with Vesperia it sounds to me like the rest of the series probably wouldn't be your thing either, but regarding the overblown praise for Vesperia that's always come off to me as people just really liking that game's main character more than anything. Personally the mage and the princess of that game were the only parts I really liked, (and only because they're really easy to read as being lesbians) but both the gameplay and writing of Vesperia is really messy, honestly, and I personally don't think it deserves as much praise as it gets. (To be entirely fair to Vesperia, and I'm really not trying to bash it, inconsistent writing and gameplay is kind of a staple of the franchise, just that it manifests in different ways in every installment, and in Vesperia's case I find that its problems are really widely overlooked by the series fans.)

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I loved Vesperia but I played it again when they put out the definitive edition and it wasn't quite as good as I remembered mainly with the plot being kind of all over the place. It's like a bunch of stuff just... happens and there are some weirdly under-developed characters too. Rita and Estelle are the best couple though and I love that any romance is basically them and then Yuri/Flynn and they never tried to put Yuri with Estelle or anything like that. Maybe that's why I like Yuri more than most male MCs lol

Of the four Ive played, I enjoyed Hearts the most, I'm assuming that's probably not seen as a great one by more knowledgable Tales fans :D My tolerance for anime tropes is very low but I do have a weakness for cartoony adventure in general, agree with your post entirely.

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Hearts is awesome! They messed it up a little in the translation but its on my precious Vita so I cant complain about it.