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Rae

Member
Mar 7, 2019
984
And the unfortunate thing about this is that what it indicates is a behavioral regression. That people are playing these games to feel childish in some way, but in addition to that, that their childishness is in some way justified when it comes at the expense of others. It's that last part that's deeply problematic. I get escapism, but escapism that encourages oppression is... well, let's say bad; though I'd rather use a less flattering term. And this was extant in idol culture before all this, but gacha has definitely been promoting the behavior as acceptable (one of many contributors, I suspect, to why it's gotten so much worse lately).

I feel like at that point it feels less like a game but a chore lol. I wish I had a extra $2k+ each month like I could improve my life so much. When I quit all my mobage I felt like I had all my free time back so much of it is based around Limited time events.
 

Ctrl Alt Del

Banned
Jun 10, 2018
4,312
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Rayne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,633
Mages in DA are an oppressed minority whilst Templars are like a police force cracking down on them. I always align myself with the mages in DA:I.
That is vastly simplifying and misunderstanding mages and templars and the relationship between them. Minorities aren't capable of killing people with their minds or reshaping reality.

Like no. It's ridiculous people say this seriously. The sheer damage a *single* mage can cause is beyond compare.

Also I will never side with the mages in DAI. That level of stupidity got what it deserved. (I did side with them in DAO and sometimes DA2 but everyone looks bad in DA2 so...eh).

On the subject of Vivienne though. I'm kind of tired of people calling her a mage traitor (or house *ahem*). Like she's defo a hypocrite but some of the shit just seems like it's only said because of her race because Wynne has similar attitudes on mages and you don't see her get half the shit Vivienne does. (And she even tells the mage Warden they should go back to the circle!) Like mages being pro circle isn't new. Wynne's pro circle, pretty sure the elf dude in witch hunt (not awakening lol) is pro circle and Vivienne. Even Bethany is so so in DA2 it's just Kirkwall's circle is so shit even she's like nah.
 
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Oct 30, 2017
707
That is vastly simplifying and misunderstanding mages and templars and the relationship between them. Minorities aren't capable of killing people with their minds or reshaping reality.

Like no. It's ridiculous people say this seriously. The sheer damage a *single* mage can cause is beyond compare.

Also I will never side with the mages in DAI. That level of stupidity got what it deserved. (I did side with them in DAO and sometimes DA2 but everyone looks bad in DA2 so...eh).

Doesn't it work like how it is portrayed in the X-men? The mutants are pretty powerful, but it doesn't take away from the allegory of being oppressed.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Doesn't it work like how it is portrayed in the X-men? The mutants are pretty powerful, but it doesn't take away from the allegory of being oppressed.
Did the mutants have a world wide empire were they ruled everyone and oppressed people who weren't mutants , and then kill the prophet who the world worships who stood against them? Also the ones that performed a ritual that doomed the world with Blights that swallow entire countries when they happen and have possibly hobbled the dwarven race permanently that they may eventually die out? And then when they were taken from power eventually undermined the protections against them in the country of the former heart of that empire where they rule again and have slavery and sacrifice regular citizens to gain more power against their rivals? Dragon Age games absolutely state the status quo in South Thedas is wrong and ripe with abuse due to power imbalance with the mage situation , it's not quite as simple as that as they are the minority that are powerful and used to be the oppressor, and there's an example of a nation where the rules against mages were eroded and they gained power again. I will say though that the games also show that there's plenty of non-magical rulers who are abusive and that it's not a mage only thing, it's a power thing
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,276
Doesn't it work like how it is portrayed in the X-men? The mutants are pretty powerful, but it doesn't take away from the allegory of being oppressed.
It's generally true, but realistically the Mage and Templars are still an allegory for slavery in most meaningful ways. Honestly if mages were as powerful as they are in Dragon Age, it's far more likely that mages would form a guild, and governing bodies would likely use the mage guild as a mitigating policing force for other mages, rather than attempting to independently use a non-mage force to control them. Lyrium wouldn't be a practically applied mitigating factor simply because it's effectively a drug, and historically and culturally drugs tend to be controlled substances rather than those used and sanctioned by large organizations.

Then again, most Dragon Age fiction is fairly absurdist extremism to begin with. Like, there's no historical explanation in its lore as to why the only way to control mages is with drug-addicted cops.
 
Oct 30, 2017
707
Did the mutants have a world wide empire were they ruled everyone and oppressed people who weren't mutants , and then kill the prophet who the world worships who stood against them? Also the ones that performed a ritual that doomed the world with Blights that swallow entire countries when they happen and have possibly hobbled the dwarven race permanently that they may eventually die out? And then when they were taken from power eventually undermined the protections against them in the country of the former heart of that empire where they rule again and have slavery and sacrifice regular citizens to gain more power against their rivals? Dragon Age games absolutely state the status quo in South Thedas is wrong and ripe with abuse due to power imbalance with the mage situation , it's not quite as simple as that as they are the minority that are powerful and used to be the oppressor, and there's an example of a nation where the rules against mages were eroded and they gained power again. I will say though that the games also show that there's plenty of non-magical rulers who are abusive and that it's not a mage only thing, it's a power thing

You're right that its mainly about the corruption of power.

The other thing about the DA is that it has a built in history unlike the X-Men. The equivalent would be if Magneto won 100 years ago and dominated mankind. We don't know the story of Xavier's equivalent in the DA. You can't really put the crimes of the old empires on to every new mage.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
You're right that its mainly about the corruption of power.

The other thing about the DA is that it has a built in history unlike the X-Men. The equivalent would be if Magneto won 100 years ago and dominated mankind. We don't know the story of Xavier's equivalent in the DA. You can't really put the crimes of the old empires on to every new mage.
I think the big problem is Tevinter where the mage abusing their position of power is not a past thing but the current situation and it came about by the relaxation of the rules for Mages, so the Chantry can point to it as an example of what happens when you ease restrictions on mages (though of courses the Chantry is biased as it helps their power to have control of mages and they have absolutely previously rewritten or suppressed past history to suit their agenda like the first inquisitor being an elven mage) And while Tevinter is an example of mages having no restrictions and the abuse that comes with it, it's really less the mages and what happens when anyone has unchecked power over other groups, and there are multiple examples of other groups that end up abusing such power of which Templar's are one. It's why I love Inquisition as it continually asks the question of what happens to different powerful organisations when they grow in power and how there initial purpose can end up twisted and also points out that the same can and is happening to the organisation you build
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,276
I think the thing that's most problematic about DA lore is that the mages never seem to have sought any solution to their problems on their own. Like, why did nobody think of trying to solve the nightmares and other threats of being a mage with anything other than becoming Tranquil? Why did no mage attempt to find alternatives to Lyrium? Why did no mage attempt to discover ways to limit or prevent possession? Given these are threats to mages in a very real way, it seems mages in the DA universe are remarkably dense to their own problems and don't seem to have much of a sense of self-preservation. Those basic questions are never answered, and they never will be, because the basic structures setup in the DA universe weren't very well thought through. It's difficult to believe "there's no other solution" to certain problems given mages literally have the ability to bend reality. It makes no sense that mages had never thought to bend reality in a way that helps them control and make safe their surroundings. It assumes mages are basically ruled by their power, rather than attempting to master it. And maybe that is the central conceit, but if it is it's difficult to believe they wouldn't have wiped one another out long ago.
I think the big problem is Tevinter where the mage abusing their position of power is not a past thing but the current situation and it came about by the relaxation of the rules for Mages, so the Chantry can point to it as an example of what happens when you ease restrictions on mages (though of courses the Chantry is biased as it helps their power to have control of mages and they have absolutely previously rewritten or suppressed past history to suit their agenda like the first inquisitor being an elven mage) And while Tevinter is an example of mages having no restrictions and the abuse that comes with it, it's really less the mages and what happens when anyone has unchecked power over other groups, and there are multiple examples of other groups that end up abusing such power of which Templar's are one. It's why I love Inquisition as it continually asks the question of what happens to different powerful organisations when they grow in power and how there initial purpose can end up twisted and also points out that the same can and is happening to the organisation you build
It still flatly denies the concept of self-governance however, and instead always refers to power consolidation as the only solution. It basically takes the axiom "absolute power corrupts absolutely" to its logical extreme, but the logical extreme of that isn't something that has ever actually existed, and leads to the absurdities presented in the DA universe (and the associated bending over backwards to try and make it all make sense to us, as readers of the text, who can understand it as outsiders, but not really process it because it doesn't actually exist in our reality).

It never takes a more suitable response to power, such as that of Robert Caro: "There's an old saying: 'All power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.' The more I've learned, the less I believe it. Power doesn't always corrupt. What power always does is reveal. When a guy gets into a position where he doesn't have to worry anymore, then you see what he wanted to do all along."
 
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Feb 24, 2018
5,223
WuIK0lR.png


deadoralive.fandom.com

Marie Rose

"Even the smallest of roses have their thorns." —Marie Rose in Dead or Alive 6 Marie Rose is the servant of Helena Douglas, who debuted in the 2013 title, Dead or Alive 5 Ultimate Arcade. Details on her past are unknown, other than that she was hired as Helena's servant and that, according to...
Didn't know about this but it isn't surprising, DOA is one of the few times I was genuinely happy to see a game series crash and burn when DOA6 flopped massively because after everything they did to push away and tell women they weren't welcomed (despite DOA3 and 4 starting the careers of many women in the competitive fighting game scene), the sheer extreme amount of monetisation, the objectification, the constant marketing to sleazy men, MRA types etc, the sheer creepy stuff they were doing with the extreme games, the lies, the absolutely ridiculous and crappy EVO 2018 presentation people actually defended it (or DOA's and fighting games over sexualization in general)... I have next to 0 sympathy for Team Ninja (and glare and side eye SNK and Sega for being a part of it).

Like DOA should be the prime example of how "sex sells" isn't really true. Why the Fighting game community needs to clean up its act (still makes me sad Netherrealm seems to be slipping back into it) and that Team Ninja really needs to be cleaned out because f*** Team Ninja, It sucks Ninja Gaiden because that's a series I'd want to see a non sleazy devs do something with.

Can fighting games stop being sleazy so they can be my favourite gaming genre again?
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,276
Didn't know about this but it isn't surprising, DOA is one of the few times I was genuinely happy to see a game series crash and burn when DOA6 flopped massively because after everything they did to push away and tell women they weren't welcomed (despite DOA3 and 4 starting the careers of many women in the competitive fighting game scene), the sheer extreme amount of monetisation, the objectification, the constant marketing to sleazy men, MRA types etc, the sheer creepy stuff they were doing with the extreme games, the lies, the absolutely ridiculous and crappy EVO 2018 presentation people actually defended it (or DOA's and fighting games over sexualization in general)... I have next to 0 sympathy for Team Ninja (and glare and side eye SNK and Sega for being a part of it).

Like DOA should be the prime example of how "sex sells" isn't really true. Why the Fighting game community needs to clean up its act (still makes me sad Netherrealm seems to be slipping back into it) and that Team Ninja really needs to be cleaned out because f*** Team Ninja, It sucks Ninja Gaiden because that's a series I'd want to see a non sleazy devs do something with.

Can fighting games stop being sleazy so they can be my favourite gaming genre again?
I mean, historically, fighting games have always been kinda sleazy. It's more that we're now seeing two extremes of that, one growing away and one that's growing towards the sleaze. Fixing it requires devs to have interest in markets other than their captured market, and devs, especially as of late, seem extremely uninterested in doing that. For what reason is hard to understand, aside from the people within it just being terrible (though in general, terrible people tend to flock together and push ideas out that don't align with their terribleness). And lots and lots of current gaming communities are predominantly people who promote toxic male culture.

More simply, I do not think, even in 2020, even in spite of the incredible success of games like Fortnite, that most devs actually think inclusivity will drive sales, despite many clear cases where that same inclusivity has done so, and on a massive scale. And it comes back to terrible people (or terrible companies, given the companies empower the people within them), effectively pushing the same views without understanding the value of change, either monetarily or ethically.
 
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Noiz1212

Banned
Jul 8, 2020
4
User banned (permanent): troll account
I see big asses and tight pants anywhere I go, don't really see a problem with it in video games either.
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,365
Have we talked much about the new Avengers game? Kamala is really cool and positive, but I'm also finding Black Widow a lot more palatable than I ever did in the movies. She has a really large variety of costumes many of which are not super sexy, and her writing as a character doesn't have anything that could possibly approach the level of how bad she was in age of ultron.

She of course still has the option to equip a skin tight outfit with a plunging neckline, but at least as a player if I want to play black widow I have the option to put her in something like these instead.

original

xmEPpVp2jGJRTDyD8SRhbh-650-80.jpg.webp
 

nonoriri

Member
Apr 30, 2020
4,236
Also I will never side with the mages in DAI. That level of stupidity got what it deserved. (I did side with them in DAO and sometimes DA2 but everyone looks bad in DA2 so...eh).
It's true. I tend to side with the mages in other games but in DAI they're SOOOOOO DUMB.

Venatori: What if you side with us, an insane supremacist cult that embodies all of the ideals that terrify people about mages and we aren't even sanctioned by the mage empire that people are afraid because we're so extreme.
Mages: 🤔🤔🤔 Seems like a solid plan.

Also Calpernia is a great villain, unlike Samson who is a snore fest.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
It's true. I tend to side with the mages in other games but in DAI they're SOOOOOO DUMB.

Venatori: What if you side with us, an insane supremacist cult that embodies all of the ideals that terrify people about mages and we aren't even sanctioned by the mage empire that people are afraid because we're so extreme.
Mages: 🤔🤔🤔 Seems like a solid plan.

Also Calpernia is a great villain, unlike Samson who is a snore fest.
The mages in DAI don't know they are Venatori though when they make the agreement with them though? Like it wasn't a good plan , putting every single mage in Southern Thedas in servitude to Tevinter for 10(?) years was not the best idea especially when you are screwing over the Fereldan crown who was protecting you while doing so but I always thought it was the (dumb) desperate decision of mages who thought they were going to lose the war, not one were they knowingly choose to join the extreme nationalist faction of Tevinter who were outcast even there?

Samson does have a killer song in the tavern though lol

Edit: also to include more stuff that's relevant to the thread topic, love Calpernia's design, her little tooth gap is so cute
 

nonoriri

Member
Apr 30, 2020
4,236
The mages in DAI don't know they are Venatori though when they make the agreement with them though? Like it wasn't a good plan , putting every single mage in Southern Thedas in servitude to Tevinter for 10(?) years was not the best idea especially when you are screwing over the Fereldan crown who was protecting you while doing so but I always thought it was the (dumb) desperate decision of mages who thought they were going to lose the war, not one were they knowingly choose to join the extreme nationalist faction of Tevinter who were outcast even there?

Samson does have a killer song in the tavern though lol

Edit: also to include more stuff that's relevant to the thread topic, love Calpernia's design, her little tooth gap is so cute
Admittedly, it's been awhile since I played DAI, but I'm pretty sure they at least are planning on allying with Tevinter, which isn't as bad, but still major BRUH. But Alexius is so transparently shady that the Venatori reveal is kinda funny..
 

Rayne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,633
Doesn't it work like how it is portrayed in the X-men? The mutants are pretty powerful, but it doesn't take away from the allegory of being oppressed.

No because there's a mage empire in the setting and a single mage that pretty much destroyed the world and remade it.

Also plenty of people are oppressed in DA's setting. None have the power that mages do. Elves (City elves in particular) are far more an oppressed because of who they are rather than what they can do. Mages aren't oppressed because they're different they're oppressed because they're dangerous and that is a very key difference. Even the most benign and weak mage can accidentally cause massive destruction. There's no mages (outside the tranquil which is its own barrel of worms) that are not dangerous in this manner.

It's true. I tend to side with the mages in other games but in DAI they're SOOOOOO DUMB.

Venatori: What if you side with us, an insane supremacist cult that embodies all of the ideals that terrify people about mages and we aren't even sanctioned by the mage empire that people are afraid because we're so extreme.
Mages: 🤔🤔🤔 Seems like a solid plan.

Also Calpernia is a great villain, unlike Samson who is a snore fest.

Seriously wtf. I debated how dumb the DAI mages (least the ones in redcliffe) are to death. They were so stupid they took a deal that only made them look bad that couldn't have even done anything beneficial for them in the first place. And don't get me started on the stupidity of Fiona as a leader. Good lord.

And yeah Calpernia > Samson.

Also the most headdesk worthy part of the redcliffe mages running to Tevinter. They were already safe! Teagan had ZERO reason to allow templars to roll into his territory after offering safe harbor to begin with. Meanwhile all they did by allowing Tevinter mages to set up shop was make them all look bad. God everytime I think about that stupidity I wanna facepalm.

Fiona believes that Tevinter will protect her from the renegade Templar armies outside of her gate because... well, it's never clear exactly why she would think that. Because he said so, mostly. Did she really think the Templars forces who defy the Chantry and rampage in the borders of Ferelden will be cowed by the prospect of Tevinter reprisals? That the non-existent Tevinter army will stand between her and them? That uniquely Tevinter magic of a Magister and his retinue will do what dozens or hundreds of mages in the Hinterlands could not? If Redcliffe was going to fall to a Templar assault (an assault, it should be pointed out, that never came), then a Tevinter Magister's intervention is not a credible deterrent or defense. Not from defending against Templars, and certainly not from Ferelden's inevitable retaliation when the Arl is run out of his own castle. Tevinter not only would not fight a war with Ferelden for a city they have no supply lines to and no ability to keep, but they could not. The existence of an ulterior motive is obvious, even if not explicit, and the only obvious objective is the mages themselves. Alexius wants the mages, and wants them for reasons he does not think they would agree to if he told them, and Fiona sells them into servitude to him for a promise he could not keep if he was honest anyway.

The redclifee mages are so fucking stupid it beggers belief. I just go to redcliffe to grab the tranquil dude (the poor Tranquils didn't ask for this) and call it a day.

And before someone says it the only way Tevinter mages have *anything* on templars (remember their templars don't even negate magic so they're not actually good at fighting actual templars that aren't glorified watchdogs) is bloodmagic which only makes them look worse and cause *more* templars to go after them but this time with actual official backing. Like it's so bad only a tactical genius like Fiona would've thought of it.

But yeah Vivienne gets shat on for being a mage that points out how alot of common people see mages and it just makes me sigh. She has a lot of faults but she's not actually wrong on that front.
 
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ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,487
Have we talked much about the new Avengers game? Kamala is really cool and positive, but I'm also finding Black Widow a lot more palatable than I ever did in the movies. She has a really large variety of costumes many of which are not super sexy, and her writing as a character doesn't have anything that could possibly approach the level of how bad she was in age of ultron.

She of course still has the option to equip a skin tight outfit with a plunging neckline, but at least as a player if I want to play black widow I have the option to put her in something like these instead.

original

xmEPpVp2jGJRTDyD8SRhbh-650-80.jpg.webp
Those are good designs for her. Both better than the jumpsuit.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,276
No because there's a mage empire in the setting and a single mage that pretty much destroyed the world and remade it.

Also plenty of people are oppressed in DA's setting. None have the power that mages do. Elves (City elves in particular) are far more an oppressed because of who they are rather than what they can do. Mages aren't oppressed because they're different they're oppressed because they're dangerous and that is a very key difference. Even the most benign and weak mage can accidentally cause massive destruction. There's no mages (outside the tranquil which is its own barrel of worms) that are not dangerous in this manner.
Aside from mages seeming to be remarkably dense as to their own self-preservation, this is always what has bothered me about mages generally in DA. How is it that reality bending mages have never had the self-preserving instinct to figure out how to bend reality in a way that assures their own safety? Like, why haven't they found a way to burn sigils into themselves or some other method aside from becoming tranquil to protect themselves? I strongly suspect the response from the in-universe lore is, "don't ask that question", but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

On a note related more to the thread itself, it is interesting to see that design for women among academies that teach art design for games seem to have changed quite a bit, and seem to be heading in a more positive direction, at least for western design: https://www.cgmasteracademy.com/courses/81-character-design-for-film-and-games

Even so, there are also some deeply problematic designs that are championed, such as this one: https://www.cgmasteracademy.com/courses/81-character-design-for-film-and-games#tab_interview_102
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
So one dressed as a terrified-looking maid and another girl in a spine-shattering pose to show her arse and chest at the same time. 'Feminine yet strong'.
 

Rayne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,633
Aside from mages seeming to be remarkably dense as to their own self-preservation, this is always what has bothered me about mages generally in DA. How is it that reality bending mages have never had the self-preserving instinct to figure out how to bend reality in a way that assures their own safety? Like, why haven't they found a way to burn sigils into themselves or some other method aside from becoming tranquil to protect themselves? I strongly suspect the response from the in-universe lore is, "don't ask that question", but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

On a note related more to the thread itself, it is interesting to see that design for women among academies that teach art design for games seem to have changed quite a bit, and seem to be heading in a more positive direction, at least for western design: https://www.cgmasteracademy.com/courses/81-character-design-for-film-and-games

Even so, there are also some deeply problematic designs that are championed, such as this one: https://www.cgmasteracademy.com/courses/81-character-design-for-film-and-games#tab_interview_102

I always assumed it had to do with the fade in general (thus "we're saving that" lorewise). As for self preservation the main way mages lose control is via demons/spirits thus emotional control is paramount. (actually if mages had some way to sever their emotions without tranquility that would probably solve their issue. It just creates another one lol).

Also leave my girl Kairi alone :( considering what she goes through she's not that bad.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
Can we stop signal-boosting some random alt-right Twitter troll

Please and thank you
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,276
I always assumed it had to do with the fade in general (thus "we're saving that" lorewise). As for self preservation the main way mages lose control is via demons/spirits thus emotional control is paramount. (actually if mages had some way to sever their emotions without tranquility that would probably solve their issue. It just creates another one lol).

Also leave my girl Kairi alone :( considering what she goes through she's not that bad.
I'm aware, but it's clear they have ways of staving off these otherworldly creatures. It makes no sense that they wouldn't attempt to find a more practical solution, like using magic to shield or protect themselves from these creatures. It's basically ignoring Occam's Razor entirely. I find it highly unlikely that the simplest solution to this problem is just, "control your emotions." If this was a big problem that all mages experienced, it stands to reason that mages would find a way to protect themselves via some means that doesn't involve them unnecessarily exposing themselves to danger. Mages can only exist in DA as being radically dense about self-preservation, because their solutions don't hold up to any real scrutiny. And even if they haven't found a way, it makes even less sense that mages wouldn't spend a lot of time and effort to find a way to solve this problem. Because solving it means no more need for templars and all the other associated dumb bullshit that goes along with mages running out of control. Because once they can control their environments safely, the entire conceptualization behind why the mages need to be treated the way they are breaks down.