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Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,314
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
I've seen a video of that "puzzle" in the game and it is why I will never touch a God of War game. Fuck everyone involved with those games. It's amazing to find out a woman wrote that particular entry as well as helped write other games in the series, except Dad of War.
 
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ConVito

Member
Oct 16, 2018
3,095
It kinda sucks cuz some of her pitched alt designs don't go this route at all (and whatever, my bar is low enough that I'll take a bit of boob blate over an ENTIRELY EXPOSED midriff). 😂 😭

wR9nSYE.png
Damn, I'm honestly digging the armor on the bottom middle. Now I'm mad knowing we could have gotten that instead of the "she breathes through her skin"-inspired bullshit they gave us.

At least her pirate outfit looks alright on her in comparison to her default outfit, which is interesting because the "pirate" outfits for the other female party members just serve to show more skin. INCLUDING THE 12 YEAR OLD.
CnTPcHuUkAA8rQw.jpg
 

Eien1no1Yami

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,279
And that video... yeah that's borderline DoA volleyball levels of weird. I was uncomfortable when the new Sakura Wars did something similar and in that were fully clothed (wouldn't be surprised if that changed later on tho).

Even if the tete-a-tete scenes in Sakura Wars can get pretty uncomfortable and it would probsbly better to just not have them at all, keep in mind that you can just play them normally and just do the whole scene with just a headpat to which you also get a consent from the girl depending on your relationship with her.
Also I don't what the purpose of this 'minigame' in Kiseki games is but in Sakura Wars is to get to know the other person.
She starts talking about her problems and you are there to listen to her.

Also no they don't get naked or lose clothes during those scenes, that's not the point in a Sakura Wars game.
Plus even if there is an underage character the protagonist doesn't see her as a love interest and just plays with her and acts like he would act towards a kid.
 

Turin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,464
I still can't believe they tried to flesh Jessie's character out but really just made her into a thirsty weirdo who never stops making inappropriate sex jokes at a coworker.

But it's just so cute when the harasser's a girl with almost no self respect. Especially toward someone who's a literal kid in an adults body. 🤭 /neckbeard

Cloud shouldn't be shipped with anyone. That boy needs years of intensive therapy.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,747
It's probably a reference to Justitia? At least that came to mind for me.
Oh, if it's a reference to something specific from an IP, I'm missing it. It's just that to me, covering up the eyes implies a loss of humanity and/or agency, which at least up to a certain point is worse than 'showing some skin.' Again, to my mind at least.
 
Jan 2, 2018
10,699
Oh, if it's a reference to something specific from an IP, I'm missing it. It's just that to me, covering up the eyes implies a loss of humanity and/or agency, which at least up to a certain point is worse than 'showing some skin.' Again, to my mind at least.

I get your point! I don't even know what those characters are from, but I often time think of Justitia (Lady Justice in English?) when I see a noble looking female character with a blindfold. It's probably not meant to be her in this case, but it came to mind. Without the beam balance it's probably not as likely as I first thought.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,747
I get your point! I don't even know what those characters are from, but I often time think of Justitia (Lady Justice in English?) when I see a noble looking female character with a blindfold. It's probably not meant to be her in this case, but it came to mind. Without the beam balance it's probably not as likely as I first thought.
Oh, I get you now. I was assuming that "Justitia" was a character from some JRPG or anime franchise. I'm not sure I think it's what they are going for, but with her arm outstretched like that I can see why it would come to mind.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
Even if the tete-a-tete scenes in Sakura Wars can get pretty uncomfortable and it would probsbly better to just not have them at all, keep in mind that you can just play them normally and just do the whole scene with just a headpat to which you also get a consent from the girl depending on your relationship with her.
Also I don't what the purpose of this 'minigame' in Kiseki games is but in Sakura Wars is to get to know the other person.
She starts talking about her problems and you are there to listen to her.

Also no they don't get naked or lose clothes during those scenes, that's not the point in a Sakura Wars game.
Plus even if there is an underage character the protagonist doesn't see her as a love interest and just plays with her and acts like he would act towards a kid.

Ok, I'm glad the underage character isn't treated weirdly, the main reason I stopped playing is because I thought it was gonna "go there".

Tete-a-tete is still pretty silly but at least it's relatively tame, I suppose.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Ok, I'm glad the underage character isn't treated weirdly, the main reason I stopped playing is because I thought it was gonna "go there".

Tete-a-tete is still pretty silly but at least it's relatively tame, I suppose.
She is treated more like a daughter if anything.
Still, Japanese games have issues with little kids so it is understandable have worries.

Every time I see a kid character in games I have to look around if they are treated well or not so I can skip. I hate that this is something I must do.
 

Raftina

Member
Jun 27, 2020
3,642
Oh, I get you now. I was assuming that "Justitia" was a character from some JRPG or anime franchise. I'm not sure I think it's what they are going for, but with her arm outstretched like that I can see why it would come to mind.
It is most likely an artistic reinterpretation of a seraph.

Juliet is a light user who uses the spirit to attack. Seraphim are eternally burning beings, which some interpret to mean that they are beings of pure light. In the Bible, they are six wings. Here, you can see six wings: two behind the head and four behind the back in forward and backward pairs. In the Bible, the seraphim use two wings to cover their eyes and two to cover their feet. Here, the wings are less constrained, and the seraph uses clothing to cover its eyes and feet instead, presumably because it looks nicer.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,200
UK
P
I got to the part with Poseidon's...er, princess in my god of war 3 playthrough.

From my memories, when I first played it, it didn't affect me much. I never liked Kratos, but it seemed to me to just be a more polished iteration of "and here is where we make Kratos do something totally fucked up in order to progress". The first game you burned an athenian soldier alive in a cage, in GoW2 you killed the translators. In GoW3, you actually do the burn alive thing again at the very start of the game, but that guy is slightly villainized in how he talks in derogatory terms to Kratos.

Playing it now tho...ugh. In case you haven't played or don't remember, (I'll spoiler it because it's pretty heavy in violence against a sexualized young woman) Kratos needs to push giant wheel up in order to open a gate. If he lets, the wheel rolls back and the gate closes and there is no way to make it through in time before it closes. So, Kratos looks around and finds Poseidon's princess, where she's clearly an abuse victim and it's unclear whether she's simply a woman he's taken a liking to or if she's his daughter, as the princess connotation implies. In either case, she's barely wearing anything and her breasts are exposed as she's chained up. To solve the puzzle, you have to drag her through the halls of enemies, get her to hold up the giant wheel, and when you walk away, she's crushed under the weight of it, and the blocks the gear wheel from turning and your allowed to pass. You go back, you see her twisted body in the pool of blood under the wheel.

So, it's the fact that they basically invented a woman sex slave character, didn't give her a name or any significant design identifies that aren't about emphasizing her sexualized body, have her alternatively be too scared of you to ask for help and then beg for help when she has no other choice, and then have her murdered by severe mutilation. And GoW is a series that's mean and it's sold on it's meanness. People bought god of war specifically so they could play an absolute asshole. But still, there's throwing the boat captain into the hydra belly when you don't have to, and this. Because, if they wanted to do this, she didn't need to be sexually objectified like this. She could have just been a regular servant girl or whatever, which may have still held the connotation of violence against women, but she wouldn't have been sexualized. The sexualization only makes sense if we consider one possibility...I think the purpose of the sexualization is to dangle the possibility that Kratos would ahve sex with her...which would have been rape though I doubt the developers would admit that that's the fantasy they were dangling in front of players...Which would be more in line with the original achievement for it, "I didn't do it but I wish I did"...

this is disgusting. But also, one thing I distinctly remember during either marketing or after game behind the scenes is how Kratos spares Hera. They specifically go to mention that Kratos is a bit chivalrous towards women, so he's willing to go easy on them unless they're outright enemies. And to the extent that he's talking about the scene with Hera, that's somewhat true. He is willing to let Hera go, up until she calls Pandora a whore. At which point, he kills her, but it's far more restrained than his usual kills, it being a simple neck snap, compared to the over the top gory violence we've had in other scenes. But that's out of tune with what he did to the poseidon princess, which may not be the most graphic violence in the game, but...she was just a scared girl begging for not to be killed, and Kratos didn't even blink at having her mutilated in order to hold open a door. But Hera and Pandora, both conservatively dressed, are given mercy up until Hera calls Pandora a whore, at which point that (which isn't even a meaningful threat of violence) is when Kratos decides Hera needs to die. Hera dies for (falsely) accusing Pandora of sexual promiscuity, of all things.

I'm....getting...a vibe here that maybe the developers had some fucked up ideas about female sexuality. Which isn't even getting into Aphrodite...
Yeah that's the worst part of God Of War, and the misogyny in 3 is next level.
 

Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,869
I think Dina's face model is getting harrassed quite a bit as well.

But not as much i guess. As Dina is "just" the lesbian love interest, not the clearly best character of a game that they hate so much for some reason i can't really fathom.
 
OP
OP
Persephone

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,447
I think Dina's face model is getting harrassed quite a bit as well.

But not as much i guess. As Dina is "just" the lesbian love interest, not the clearly best character of a game that they hate so much for some reason i can't really fathom.

there are valid reasons to dislike abby but u KNOW that's not why these dickweeds hate her
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,365
And Jocelyn basically wasn't involved with the game, not that that would make it okay. But she agreed to let them use her face early on in development and hasn't even worked for Naughty Dog for ages now.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,747
Wonder how many developers are seeing the harassment these women connected to TLOU 2 are going through and changing the stories on games currently in early development (to avoid pissing off the man babies). Also wonder how many women are seeing the harassment and becoming less likely to pursue face or body-modeling, mo-capping type jobs for games.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,492
New York
Wonder how many developers are seeing the harassment these women connected to TLOU 2 are going through and changing the stories on games currently in early development (to avoid pissing off the man babies). Also wonder how many women are seeing the harassment and becoming less likely to pursue face or body-modeling, mo-capping type jobs for games.
Yeah I was wondering this myself and about to post a similar sentiment.

It feels like the myth that inclusive and/or diverse leads/casts in games won't sell as of late has shown to ring rather false, if not been completely disproved, yet the rise, ferocity and longevity of these harassment campaigns feels like a specter that is going to make a lot of people shy away from certain stories and choices, if not altogether avoiding the gaming industry. You don't even need to be a forward facing member of a development team to find yourself under siege. Female animators and writers and more have been targets. Corporate might be more willing and financially supportive of these kinds of experiences, stories and characters, but the creatives themselves just might not want to deal with the headache and very real trauma they might be exposing themselves to by working in the industry.

Seems like every creative/entertainment medium these days is neckbeard deep in this stuff, but gaming already has plenty of other issues and drawbacks to contend with so talent might choose to go elsewhere or just not bother with anything at all. Plenty of higher paying industries out there with little to no fear of internet hate mobs coming after you even if they don't offer the same creative outlet.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,923
there are valid reasons to dislike abby but u KNOW that's not why these dickweeds hate her
"Let's prove how manly we are by harassing every nice woman tied to this game." Fucking assholes.
Wonder how many developers are seeing the harassment these women connected to TLOU 2 are going through and changing the stories on games currently in early development (to avoid pissing off the man babies). Also wonder how many women are seeing the harassment and becoming less likely to pursue face or body-modeling, mo-capping type jobs for games.
I hate that this is a possibility because Laura as Abby knocked it out the park and I fucking love that character. Ashley Johnson proved as Ellie that you can have a female led narrative game and have it done well, Abby cemented and Ashly Burch as Aloy is basically icing on that cake. I'd love more characters like these as lead characters.
 
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Quellyford

Member
May 16, 2020
4,031
I've seen a video of that "puzzle" in the game and it is why I will never touch a God of War game. Fuck everyone involved with those games. It's amazing to find out a woman wrote that particular entry as well as helped write other games in the series, except Dad of War.
Just watched it on YouTube. I feel sick.
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,365
I know the new god of war is a really man driven story, like the whole game is about fatherhood or whatever right? So when I ask "how is the representation of women in that game?", I'm not like, asking if there are well written deep characters in the game who are women (though great if there are), I'm just wondering if it has anything super gross/offensive like the older games. So, how is the representation of women in the new god of war?
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,923
I know the new god of war is a really man driven story, like the whole game is about fatherhood or whatever right? So when I ask "how is the representation of women in that game?", I'm not like, asking if there are well written deep characters in the game who are women (though great if there are), I'm just wondering if it has anything super gross/offensive like the older games. So, how is the representation of women in the new god of war?
Only woman I can think of even being in the game is Freya and I don't think I have problems with her. She's not fanserviced up or anything. She spends the entire game not wearing shoes, but that's all I can think of, though I'm sure there are more informed opinions than mine.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,385
I know the new god of war is a really man driven story, like the whole game is about fatherhood or whatever right? So when I ask "how is the representation of women in that game?", I'm not like, asking if there are well written deep characters in the game who are women (though great if there are), I'm just wondering if it has anything super gross/offensive like the older games. So, how is the representation of women in the new god of war?
There's nothing offensive, fortunately.

There's very few women (though to be fair there's very few characters, period). The most important one is fairly solid in terms of representation. While you could probably find something to criticize/analyze, she's at least a complex and nuanced character and has a great visual design too. And none of the women in the games are sexualized, or cheap stereotypes, or anything like that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,747
I know the new god of war is a really man driven story, like the whole game is about fatherhood or whatever right? So when I ask "how is the representation of women in that game?", I'm not like, asking if there are well written deep characters in the game who are women (though great if there are), I'm just wondering if it has anything super gross/offensive like the older games. So, how is the representation of women in the new god of war?
It's nothing like the old games. There's only two female characters, though, and even that's a stretch because I'm counting Kratos's dead wife (whom you never see, but they do talk about her a lot). The other female character is a bit of a stereotype (it would be a spoiler to tell you which one, I guess, but I can if you like) but she's not objectified at all. I actually do think this character is pretty well written, but that's probably because I share the game's criticism of the 'type' she represents. Both Kratos's dead wife and this other character have clear and consistent motivations that are consistent with the game's central themes, so in that respect it's ahead of like 80% of video game writing.
 

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,314
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
I looked up the Aphrodite scene, since I hadn't seen it before. Ugh.
I know the new god of war is a really man driven story, like the whole game is about fatherhood or whatever right? So when I ask "how is the representation of women in that game?", I'm not like, asking if there are well written deep characters in the game who are women (though great if there are), I'm just wondering if it has anything super gross/offensive like the older games. So, how is the representation of women in the new god of war?
I don't know much but I believe the role of women still sucks, just not flagrantly misogynistic. Apparently it butchers Norse mythology too.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,744
I know the new god of war is a really man driven story, like the whole game is about fatherhood or whatever right? So when I ask "how is the representation of women in that game?", I'm not like, asking if there are well written deep characters in the game who are women (though great if there are), I'm just wondering if it has anything super gross/offensive like the older games. So, how is the representation of women in the new god of war?
Nothing super offensive largely because there are barely any women in the new God of Wars, there's two main female characters, one of which dies at the start of the game and the other has had her powers taken from her due to a toxic relationship she was forced into (I can't really fully remember the full details of Freya and Odin's relationship) and she has little agency and the one decision she makes for her son makes her toxic and controlling. I didn't find it good representation of what was essentially the only female character who we saw actually speak. Also the whole game is essentially the redeeming of a figure who is toxic af and is a terrible father, and who we are meant to root for to get better, and I don't know how I feel about the whole point of the game tbh.
 

Retromess

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Nov 9, 2017
2,039
I know the new god of war is a really man driven story, like the whole game is about fatherhood or whatever right? So when I ask "how is the representation of women in that game?", I'm not like, asking if there are well written deep characters in the game who are women (though great if there are), I'm just wondering if it has anything super gross/offensive like the older games. So, how is the representation of women in the new god of war?
It's pretty bad.

Kratos' wife dies before the adventure begins so it's the common "fridging the wife" trope.

THEN, the next and only major female character (aside from the optional Valkyrie boss fights) is Freya/Frigg who seems like an interesting character for most of the game until the ending, when Baldur, her son, is choking her to death and she's basically thanking him for doing so.

And that's it. For what it's worth at least Freya's design is well done, IMO, fitting the "Witch of the Woods" title she carries.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,385
It's pretty bad.

Kratos' wife dies before the adventure begins so it's the common "fridging the wife" trope.

THEN, the next and only major female character (aside from the optional Valkyrie boss fights) is Freya/Frigg who seems like an interesting character for most of the game until the ending, when Baldur, her son, is choking her to death and she's basically thanking him for doing so.

And that's it. For what it's worth at least Freya's design is well done, IMO, fitting the "Witch of the Woods" title she carries.
I really disagree with most of this, and I'm not even a huge fan of the game or anything.

Krato's wife isn't "fridged". She's just dead, of natural causes, before the story starts. Not every dead female character is "fridging".

"Fridging" is a trope about when a woman, often nameless and/or undercharacterized, dies (often in gruesome or brutal ways), in order to drive the male character forward, usually on a quest for vengeance. It's a cheap trope because it reduces a woman to a disposable victim status and uses cheap shock value in order to justify violence and/or toxic masculinity from the male protagonist.


As for the rest:
You can probably find lots of discuss and criticize in Freya's arc, but saying "oh she just lets herself get choked to death by her son" like that, is really reductive IMO.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,200
UK
I know the new god of war is a really man driven story, like the whole game is about fatherhood or whatever right? So when I ask "how is the representation of women in that game?", I'm not like, asking if there are well written deep characters in the game who are women (though great if there are), I'm just wondering if it has anything super gross/offensive like the older games. So, how is the representation of women in the new god of war?
While character designs for women are better in this new God Of War there are still some regressive ideas as holdovers from the previous trilogy on the roles and actions of women.

www.vice.com

In 'God of War,' Moms Come Last

In a game very much about fathers and sons, the role of a mother is to be invisible or toxic.
(SPOILERS)
A remnant of the regressive ideas that permeate the early God of War games―ideas that this offering claims to grow out of, it's a duality of motherhood through a misogynistic lens. The benevolent nurturer who knows when and how to wean (and depart her child's life entirely) , and the possessive monster who can't let go.​
Freya is not only alive, but the embodiment of overprotective motherhood, one that is desperate, manipulative, weak, and secretive.​
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,744
While character designs for women are better in this new God Of War there are still some regressive ideas as holdovers from the previous trilogy on the roles and actions of women.

www.vice.com

In 'God of War,' Moms Come Last

In a game very much about fathers and sons, the role of a mother is to be invisible or toxic.
(SPOILERS)
A remnant of the regressive ideas that permeate the early God of War games―ideas that this offering claims to grow out of, it's a duality of motherhood through a misogynistic lens. The benevolent nurturer who knows when and how to wean (and depart her child's life entirely) , and the possessive monster who can't let go.​
Freya is not only alive, but the embodiment of overprotective motherhood, one that is desperate, manipulative, weak, and secretive.​
This a great article and explains alot of the big problems with Freya , which are worse due to her being pretty much the only female character that speaks.
 

RecLib

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,365
Thanks for the many and varied replies to my question about God of War. I like having this thread to direct questions like that towards.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,893
I really disagree with most of this, and I'm not even a huge fan of the game or anything.

Krato's wife isn't "fridged". She's just dead, of natural causes, before the story starts. Not every dead female character is "fridging".

"Fridging" is a trope about when a woman, often nameless and/or undercharacterized, dies (often in gruesome or brutal ways), in order to drive the male character forward, usually on a quest for vengeance. It's a cheap trope because it reduces a woman to a disposable victim status and uses cheap shock value in order to justify violence and/or toxic masculinity from the male protagonist.

Absolutely. I feel like God of War (2018) revealed that a lot of people don't fully grasp the nature of fridging (and what is problematic about it). Another example of something that helps separate God of War's depiction of the death of Faye from the typical fridging trope is how consistently her presence is felt throughout the entirety of the game. Faye doesn't just exist to set the plot in motion, she remains a pivotal character throughout the game. She isn't disposable, as we learn more and more about her as Kratos and Atreus reflect upon their relationship with her. Faye doesn't feel like a cynical plot device (which fridging always is) as we she is thoroughly developed throughout the course of the game (though that development is postmortem).

As for Freya... I think she is a pretty good character, but there are definitely things there that I could see people not taking a shine to (even if a lot of it is fairly thematically resonant). I get why some people would have issues with her. In general, God of War (2018) isn't a perfect game, but it is such a huge step forward from the original titles that it is hard to not admire it.

Speaking of fridging... I am legitimately concerned that Resident Evil VIII looks to be leaning on that trope pretty prominently (if the rumors are to be believed). I really, really hope that doesn't end up being the case. It is an extremely cheap narrative device that is worthy of criticism.
 

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,314
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
Yeah, I'm really worried about Resident Evil VIIIage. It would be a first for the series, but none of the previous protagonists have had a family. In Resident Evil fashion, it may be end up a fake out but signs currently point to it being an important aspect of the setup. :|
 

Sesha

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,828
I really doubt Mia is actually dead in RE8. I had a really visceral reaction to her getting shot, and I still do (I've skipped that part whenever I've rewatched the trailer cuz I'm a big squeamish baby about scenes like that), but in my mind I feel confident that she's not actually dead. Characters dying but not really is par for the course for RE. And Mia has already survived seemingly fatal blows a bunch already.

Maybe she genuinely dies during the story, but I fully expect the scene in the trailer to be a fakeout of some sort.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Yeah, I'm really worried about Resident Evil VIIIage. It would be a first for the series, but none of the previous protagonists have had a family. In Resident Evil fashion, it may be end up a fake out but signs currently point to it being an important aspect of the setup. :|
If the leaks are to be believed, there is something more to it.

Who knows though, they were rewriting some aspects according to the leak so it might be fridging through and through.