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Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."
- Thread starter Persephone
- Start date
- OT
The funny thing about the stereotype about women wanting to play dress up is that recent gaming trends have shown that men too, also want to play dress up. Buying skins in Fornite, Overwatch, Destiny, etc. is basically dressing up your doll. I collected all the outfits in Breath of the Wild not because of their stat benefits but because I wanted to change the way Link looked.
Yeah. I actively play dnd. (This might be getting a bit outside of the thread in a similar way to anime, but oh well) The attitudes of people who talk about it online are STILL very gross, are still in line with that Gary Gygax quote. I've been playing with a group of personal real life friends and that is the only reason I've been able to get into it. Trying to play video games online is hostile enough as is, showing up to random groups hoping to play dnd with strangers? would be a fucking minefield of shit.
Related to the last few pages, could we collectively think of a way to have a more general feminism thread that would work?
When I saw that anime thing earlier, coming here to talk about it was my first reflex. I guess it's because of the great community surrounding this thread. I understand the mods for having stopped the conversation, it's after all not what this thread really is about, but the discussion was going well, I would have liked to continue the conversation! Similarly, the D&D issue that Manfred and RecLib are bringing up is super valid, and that would make a very great conversation too.
I thought this thread was going to be somewhat transformed for that purpose according to the conversations about this in OT2, but it seems it was decided otherwise. I guess what I'd like is a thread where anything and everything that has to do with feminism could be discussed. Gaming, anime, D&D, geek culture, TV, movies, something that happened in your life that you would like to talk about, etc. I would love to have a safe space to discuss general feminism with the same community present in this thread.
Is it something that could be possible? What do you all think?
When I saw that anime thing earlier, coming here to talk about it was my first reflex. I guess it's because of the great community surrounding this thread. I understand the mods for having stopped the conversation, it's after all not what this thread really is about, but the discussion was going well, I would have liked to continue the conversation! Similarly, the D&D issue that Manfred and RecLib are bringing up is super valid, and that would make a very great conversation too.
I thought this thread was going to be somewhat transformed for that purpose according to the conversations about this in OT2, but it seems it was decided otherwise. I guess what I'd like is a thread where anything and everything that has to do with feminism could be discussed. Gaming, anime, D&D, geek culture, TV, movies, something that happened in your life that you would like to talk about, etc. I would love to have a safe space to discuss general feminism with the same community present in this thread.
Is it something that could be possible? What do you all think?
Hi, everyone! Lurked a lot in the last thread, though I never felt strong enough to participate. I want to change that this time around because I feel really strongly about this issue.
Ahh, I was so torn over this poll! I really wanted to vote D because I love her hair and the concept of her being an older kunoichi is awesome! But even though I trust the Eiyuden team and have loved Kawano's designs since the first game, I found I was still worried about D's treatment in game/online reactions due to her having the largest bust size. (And I hate that I have to be concerned about that.)
In the end, I went with B in hopes of getting another character like Kasumi. But I do like D and won't be sad if she wins. (Or C, who is also awesome!)
Hrm. The one thing (the only thing?) that bugs me about the She-Hulk design is her face. Does she look too young/cutesy to anyone else, in a kind of "identical Pixar female character face" way? Not sure how she compares to other female Fortnite skins though as I've mostly avoided that game.
The transformation gif makes her looks pretty great though!
Euch... Also, as a woman who plays TCGs, it's the disgusting racist/misogynist/homophobic talk that pervades every match (funny how only my female monsters receive rude comments when I play them), not the fact that my backstory-less monsters are crushing your backstory-less monsters that make me so loathe to play against anyone outside my small group.
Also, TCGs have no story or personality? Those games are often bursting at the seams with lore!
Eiyuden has voting up in the last days of the kickstarter for the design of a female ninja character.
Reactions are fairly mixed with most of the people in the Eiyuden thread not liking A, and preferring either B or D.
I voted for B just because she's pretty close to the Suikoden 2 ninja style. I liked C as a backup because she just looks mean.
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Lol gotcha
V
Ahh, I was so torn over this poll! I really wanted to vote D because I love her hair and the concept of her being an older kunoichi is awesome! But even though I trust the Eiyuden team and have loved Kawano's designs since the first game, I found I was still worried about D's treatment in game/online reactions due to her having the largest bust size. (And I hate that I have to be concerned about that.)
In the end, I went with B in hopes of getting another character like Kasumi. But I do like D and won't be sad if she wins. (Or C, who is also awesome!)
She-Hulk in Fortnite:
And yes, her arms are huge in-game.
Hrm. The one thing (the only thing?) that bugs me about the She-Hulk design is her face. Does she look too young/cutesy to anyone else, in a kind of "identical Pixar female character face" way? Not sure how she compares to other female Fortnite skins though as I've mostly avoided that game.
The transformation gif makes her looks pretty great though!
Euch... Also, as a woman who plays TCGs, it's the disgusting racist/misogynist/homophobic talk that pervades every match (funny how only my female monsters receive rude comments when I play them), not the fact that my backstory-less monsters are crushing your backstory-less monsters that make me so loathe to play against anyone outside my small group.
Also, TCGs have no story or personality? Those games are often bursting at the seams with lore!
Only excuse I can make is the men don't know better, has been excluded from other groups of society and wanted to keep what they felt was a safe place for them. However, by continuing the behavior and not learning to move on or get better, they reinforce the problem they have and either fragment the scene in ways that create a toxic atmosphere or the whole thing falls on it weight of problems.
Hypothetically that's what the ReGals thread would be for right? But that thread is unfortunately super dead most of the time.
Yeah, that was my first reflex too after subscribing here. Actually, my second post was in that thread! (My first one was about TLOU Part 2, lol!) But like you say, it's mostly dead. And it's really specifically only for women... I think a feminism thread in this forum would work better if men are also allowed to post (but are heavily moderated), just like what happens in this thread.
And the anime thread Morrigan pointed to doesn't seem super active either... that's why we would need to think about what could really work. Maybe it's the specific community watching and posting in this thread that is the secret? That's why what could maybe really work would be to broaden the scope of it while still keeping its current purpose... Just throwing ideas around.
Tagging Persephone and Morrigan.
Edit: Also, this is only an idea based on what I think would be great and could generate great discussions. Anybody just tell me if I'm out of line!
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Fortnite is really bad with its female character designs. Whenever there are male & female counterparts to some design, the female version is almost always very sexualized in ways the male versions rarely (if ever) are. Like, say there's a new pirate skin. You can choose a male pirate or a female pirate. The male pirate will have 5 layers of clothing with a heavy jacket on top & wearing loose pants. The female version will have the tightest shorts, a sleeveless white shirt ripped in half so basically a crop top, and cleavage of course. And this design mentality difference applies to pretty much every female <-> male character design. And the ones that don't have counterparts for the opposite sex, it's still "men look fine in context of the skin's theme, women are as sexualized as they can make a kid oriented game like Fortnite" type stuff.
+ there's zero body variety with the female characters. They are all super fit with big enough asses & tits vs. men who have at least some variety (though flat asses combine them all). With one single exception that was added just last week or so, a slightly heavier/larger female mechanic woman
It sucks to see how many people involved in Tabletop games and TCGs just casually dismissed an entire gender. It is a reminder of how much of a boys club nerd culture has been for decades. It's an attitude that kept me away for long time. It feels like things have improved a bit in recent years, games like MTG have tried to create better female characters, and have featured some great designs, but it will take a very long time for the toxic fans to leave.
It would be more active if at least half of all feminist-y anime/manga talk didn't happen in this thread. :p
That's better. *nods*
To be frank your proposal isn't bad in the sense that an all genders allowed feminism thread would probably be more consistently active. This thread is propped up largely by men. Women and non-men are a minority on this forum especially in terms of post volume, though I don't have numbers just years of observation.
For sure! But maybe it's an indication that splitting the community doesn't work.
I didn't mean to leave you out, lol! I just don't know everybody yet and I today I interacted with Persephone and Morrigan so these were the names that popped up in my mind. Sorry!!
Also, this isn't a closed discussion! Anybody from the community that would like to give their input is more than welcome!
I'm fine with this thread being more about feminism in gaming generally, I already said as much in the previous OT. That said, it IS in gaming, and the focus is on that. The anime discussion was not bad by itself, but... like, why not have it in the Anime thread, which is specifically what that thread is for? It won't be a dead thread if you have all those discussions there! ^^
As for a "Feminism in Entertainment" OT in Etc., I don't see why not, if anyone wants to make it. Or even a general Feminism OT. Or you could just re-animate ReGals, too. Lots of options there.
As for a "Feminism in Entertainment" OT in Etc., I don't see why not, if anyone wants to make it. Or even a general Feminism OT. Or you could just re-animate ReGals, too. Lots of options there.
Precisely lol
The question not being asked is: why do people come to this thread? Talking more in regards to the criticising of anime/manga. You can't assume that the brief discussion that just happened had an equal chance of happening in that thread.
You're fine, I was just giving you a little bit of a hard time. I sometimes feel like I'm a little invisible. 😅
Very good question. I can speak about why I'm personally drawn to this specific thread. In order:
- It feels safe.
- There is a real sense of community. The same feeling is definitely not there in other similar threads.
- The discussions are usually sensible and intelligent. People are generally fun to interact with.
- It's very active.
Also, if the other threads created with similar themes are not really working, maybe it's a sign that splitting this community just doesn't work?
I think you are right in regards to splitting the community. I think another factor is that feminist oriented posters more present in EcetEra are going to be more active in individual threads that crop up.
This OT is probably where I spend most of my time. I'm hesitant to call it a community per se but we have our regulars.
I'm just going to say as someone who considers myself an anime fan, I really wasn't familiar with the examples that I saw in the last page of that in that thread. So it doesn't entice me to join. Not to mention, a lot of the people I really like talking with aren't in that thread (which not to diss those folks in that thread! I'm just a newer member), it's active, and it feels like people are moderating this thread, and that as a non-binary person I am cool to be here. I also think people's interests and fandoms tend to cross a lot of different genres and to have a full discussion, banning certain mediums doesn't work. Especially gaming and anime where there is so much crossover. That said, I think it would be okay to say discussion about anime or other things need to be in a great context or else people need to knock it off.
That does not surprise me. It's to the point where I don't even feel the need to look up the designs for myself, what you describe is so common....
...Though I did look up a selection of random skins - from season 8, I believe - and my god, there were SO MANY hand-on-hip poses for the female skins that you'd think their hips contained rare-earth magnets! And they weren't identical poses either!
I noticed maybe one pseudo-identical post among the guys and it was a villainous "rubbing hands" gesture.
I'm not sure about chiming in when I'm still so new to posting here, but once the mods became active in last thread, it felt more safe/curated. That was definitely a draw for me posting here this time. I was also disappointed to find out that the ReGals thread seemed so inactive. (I thought of posting now and again, but it felt like a social faux pas to resurrect a thread without big news of some kind.)
I guess my concern about expanding this to be a hub for all feminist discussion, including non-gaming entertainment, is that more things may get buried as (especially) anime, tv, and movie discussions can get heated quickly. The last OT did not seem like a particularly slow one.
The last picture, with the top being unzipped? For sure, that's a creepy image.
As far as I can tell it's a unique face model. Maybe they used some of the facial features from the numerous default female faces, but the majority of it looks new. I expect a lot more work is put in for license characters.
Most female characters have a more subdued, tight, and lean design compared to the male characters, and the pros mainly prefer it as you're not a big distracting target. A lot of them do have pretty big asses while the male characters almost always have a flat ass. It's an interesting decision to say the least. It's not DOA levels of gratuitous sex appeal. No character is really lewd in this game. The closest you'll get is Beach Bomber:
With that being said, we've been getting more varied designs in Chapter 2 like Jules (top) and Skye (bottom):
It's probably fully legal, seems like you can slap any legal age number at the character info and do whatever you want.
And yeah, she's cancer, if Marie-Rose could be wiped out from the planet the world would be a better place, her popularity has clearly affected every character they've made afterwards, possibly in other games as well since DOA is still big. In DOA5 she was at least DLC and could be avoided but now she's one of the standard characters and literally ruins the game. There is one costume and hair combo that makes her tolerable, I'll see if I can find a pic, the rest are some kind of stealth manga underaged porn bs.
Edit: This is okay-ish
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I've been playing Code Vein lately and i'm baffled this game is from last year, what a dissapointment
I'm really glad this thread is a safe space, and it's comforting to see all these assurances. In the past, just based on the speed at which it updated, I'd assumed there was a raging flame war in here that I had no desire to see, not even in morbid curiosity. Really happy to be wrong!
Someone help this poor thing. Her back is broken and her paralysed body is being whisked around in an unnatural and physically impossible way.I so desperately want to bang the sexy Qunari lady in DA4 and if she is not gay I will die and make them put Bioware as my cause of death.
But also BIOWARE ARTIST FUCKING PLEASE. DON'T BE THIS WAY.
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this thread IS about feminist discussion of video games in general. but anime isn't video games lol. *takes deep drag of cigarette* i SUPPOSE i could make a non-gaming feminism ot. maybe.
I missed this post earlier, but I want to push back on that just a bit. It's entirely possible to enjoy fiction despite its problematic content and it doesn't make you a bigot necessarily. Maybe if the content were excessively egregious (like, I'd certainly be grossed out at anyone who says they want to play Rapelay...). But otherwise I'd avoid judging people like that. Especially since you're unlikely to meet your own purity test, I'm sure you (generic "you") enjoy media that has questionable shit in it too. ^^
Although if you meant consuming media uncritically and handwaving the questionable shit, then that's different, of course.
A smoker? You are dead to me!
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no but i have to give myself an air of tired mystique SOMEHOW
anyway this just came on my tumblr dash, seems relevant
Thanks for posting this. I don't have anything to add to the discourse but my two daughters are way, way into D&D and our weekly games are a highlight. It's good to reflect on the game's sexist legacy and the hostility of the subculture. I'll take that on board as a dad.
I like a number of the female skins in Fortnite, recently the Roller Derby one has become my main since coming out. I love it even if you could question the open areas. There's a number of others I like and rotate through too, will have to screenshot and post later.
If my daughter wants to play tabletop RPGs I'd be over the moon, lots of the bedtime stories I tell (she hasn't started school yet) are effectively 'choose your own adventure' in subtle preparation, which my wife finds hilarious :D
Oh I'm saving that for revelant times ha ha.no but i have to give myself an air of tired mystique SOMEHOW
anyway this just came on my tumblr dash, seems relevant
Oooh. 3rd Edition of the thread. I figure we need one more dig at Velvet's design, courtesy of Tales of Crestoria:
Everything about her is pretty bad.I was more thinking about this one.
The main problem is labeling her with an adult age while having very young features and design really push the idea of allowing their audience to have inappropriate actions to a make believe underage character that is technically an adult.
I'm not surprised that quote made it to the OP, I've genuinely been chuckling to myself about that post in the weeks since reading that thread.
Oooh. 3rd Edition of the thread. I figure we need one more dig at Velvet's design, courtesy of Tales of Crestoria:
As someone who only played Zestiria, trying this game and seeing some of those designs from the previous games was... an unpleasant surprise. I know people like to shit on Zestiria but it did quite a few things right when it comes to the female characters.
Oooh. 3rd Edition of the thread. I figure we need one more dig at Velvet's design, courtesy of Tales of Crestoria:
Like it just doesn't make any sense to me why Velvet, who is regularly walking around towns and buying weapons, does not just buy new clothing.