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Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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The original poster made a point of saying some people can't take a beautiful/attractive butch doing what she did. I just wanted get out a counter point that I liked the game and Abby but still not her looks. People dislike the game or the deed because of her looks might be true but not necessarily part of the equation.
Honestly there are so many strong opinions and reasons people hate on the game. I would probably have preferred a prettier face on Abby for one but I still think ND's design is the most fitting one for the story and character dynamics, they all look and feel so real. ND did many bold and daring choices and I found them to be thrilling. But I can't help to feel they toned down Elie's looks a tad bit from the first game. Joel is probably the most handsome looking character in the entire game but I found others to look more lifelike such as Mel, Owen, Isac, Dina and Jessie comes off as more natural looking.
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My dude, coming into this specific thread just to talk about how you didn't find a couple of TLOU's female characters as attractive as you would have preferred is, like, remarkably tone deaf.
There are 480329840302 others games out there with conventionally attractive women in them, you don't need to complain about one of the few games that designs its female characters like real people instead of supermodels, and you certainly don't need to be doing it in this thread of all places. Not to mention it being your first time even commenting here, and that's what you decide to open with? Telling another user they're wrong to call Abby attractive and how she and Ellie shoulda been prettier???
True, the west is desensitized to violence and gore just as the east is to gratitious fanservice practices, and neither wants to listen to the other's suggestions to tone things down a notch and both believe their values are better/right.It also has to do with the fact that now censorship laws are the extreme opposite between USA and Japan. Tlou2 recently was edited for violence in Japan, while here titillating sexualization is the main concern, for console games at least. Because on PC they opened a wholly different can of worms. Players are caught in the middle.
It is like saying to developers on both sides "look you can not do this but you are free to your hearts content to do that". So when Japanese companies want to export their titles or import foreign titles, they are caught in this mess. Same for foreign companies.
Now add also China where developers have to extra worry about regional politics.
Freedom of expression is harmed in both ways and it became a cluster fuck.
Also relevant
Love Hina Manga Creator Discusses Manga's "Freedom of Expression" With Japanese Government
UQ HOLDER and Love Hina manga creator, Ken Akamatsu tweeted on June 29 that he'd recently been summoned by the Japanese National Government to discuss manga and how it can succeed in thwww.crunchyroll.com
I think it's absolutely fine to criticize both sides, but I also don't want either side to yield to the other or feel like their creative freedom is endangered.
I agree with this, and the same goes for gore or graphic content.
Ultimately I want every developer to have the freedom to make the games they want to make and truy believe in, without feeling forced to make this character more sexually appealing because it would do better with the otaku crowd, or to put in X to appeal to another fanbase, etc.
I imagine this isn't as much of a problem for indie devs, but big developing studios with marketing advisors probably get their fair share of this.
Doing it "in earnest" doesn't make it any better. Yoko Taro being a perv is not a good thing for the games he makes no matter if he's open about just wanting dem sexy ladies.
Context matters. Scantily clad women or women in sexy dresses are not an inherently bad thing if the context is at least somewhat appropriate (the characters are in a fancy party, there's an intimate scene between the woman and her lover(s) etc.), though having the "mandatory" beach or bathhouse sequence just to put women in as revealing clothes & framing them in as objectifying way as possible should also be avoided. The problems start when you can't separate a character going to the beach or a fancy party from a character fighting against giant mutant monsters in a post-apocalyptic world.
Like, in principle there's nothing wrong with a game like Dead Or Alive Xreme Volleyball existing. They are pervy trash but hey, no kink shaming (except pedos). The issue comes when you can't separate a "serious" game from DOAXV when it comes to the depiction of women (+ the pedo shit is gross too). Though I think taking established fighting game characters and making them literal sex objects is pretty shitty as well. But yeah, if someone wants to play a game with women in bikinis playing volleyball at the beach, that's not objectionable in itself. It's when that shit creeps into where it should not be and where not a single male character suffers from the same (not to say that putting men into skimpy outfits would change this issue, at all)
I would like to unretire for one post to point out that I am immensely annoyed by the discussion around buff women in videogames often coming down to finding x body type attractive on a woman. If a woman wants to be buff, maybe that's not primarily to sexually appeal to your male ass. They don't require your validation to work out. That's all.
OP
OP
hi im the realism police here to tell you this impossible because... wait
seriously, that owns
I completely understand how you feel, I can emphasize with this viewpoint at times, I found Xenoblade 2 and Nier to be a bit distracting at first and didn't take them too seriously either, well Automata was freaking epic. I personally don't like anime beach episodes as it interrupts the story. I especially don't like submissive character without agency as is way too prevalent in many animes these days, there is nothing worse than a strong tsundere female lead that unexpectedly cracks after a while and becomes a submissive love interest for the protagonist. But while objectifying is terrible in real life and everyone deserves to be treated as person with respect. I can't really see the problem with blatantly using objectification or sex in games or anime to cater to a paying audience whether I like it or not. It's like freedom of expression and speech.
Of course not, anyone should have the right to chose how they look but you can't be angry with what other people find attractive.
Let's look at the threadtitle again together. Right now you are posting in a topic called "Why women criticise sexualised character designs", and your contribution is basically "I don't see a problem" and also "freedom of speech". Like, wtf? Objectification ingame normalizes it for real life and vice versa. It's a vicious cicle.
I'm pretty sure it is even explained rather well in the OP, where the problem lies.
With the Dead or Alive game as an example, Famassu explained very well how porn has a right to exist, that's not the issue. The paying audience can still have them.
But stop shoving this shit into everything, that exists. MGS5 or DMC5 are far away from porn as much as possible. Still they show naked female asses as if they were. They treat the women in their cast with no respect at all. This shit is hurtful and disappointing. And it is tiresome especially as a female gamer, who would like to have a strong and decent clothed woman once in a while.
You telling us what you find attractive and unattractive is not discourse nor have you actually discussed any of the points that have been raised in this thread other than saying you don't see a problem
Kind of tangentially related to the buff women discussion but there was a thread a few months back on how women in Japan aren't allowed to wear glasses at work because it makes them seem less attractive or inviting. Most of the comments were about how shitty it was but a good portion of people thought it was shitty because they find women in glasses attractive. While it's fine that you like glasses on women, it didn't feel like the time or place for people to talk about their fetish. The article was about women not being able to see at fucking work because Japanese business culture cares more about their looks and people responded by talking their preferences on how a woman should look. It seemed completely out of touch with what the article was calling out.
Going back to buff women and women's look in videogames in general, I feel like many people here focus the discussion around pandering to specific fetishes and completely miss the point of the topic. Like the point of having more diverse body types and appearances isn't so you can something to ogle over.
Going back to buff women and women's look in videogames in general, I feel like many people here focus the discussion around pandering to specific fetishes and completely miss the point of the topic. Like the point of having more diverse body types and appearances isn't so you can something to ogle over.
This is sort of highlighted in this concept art for the Street Fighter games
You can see all the men have wildly different body types, shapes and sizes, weights
whereas the women...
If you're gonna jump in outta nowhere with this galaxy brained shit, then I might as well jump in with mine.
I'm a straight dude and Abby is fucking gorgeous, and I'll fight to the death on top of this hill.
Nice to know that this thread about how developers like to reduce the essence of female characters entirely down to their appearances has devolved to this point, but I felt urged to provide my rebuttal.
"strong jawline" is some fucking gross anti-woman shit.
Don't do that. Because it implies only men can have strong jawlines. Which then implies men without strong jawlines aren't real men.
It's just toxic masculinity all the way down and it hurts everyone.
Don't do that. Because it implies only men can have strong jawlines. Which then implies men without strong jawlines aren't real men.
It's just toxic masculinity all the way down and it hurts everyone.
I actually remember having a conversation with a guy on this site telling them that woman do have "strong jawlines" when they told me men only have them and when I asked has he not seen women in real life with that jawline shape he told me he didn't look women directly in the faces most of the time so wouldn't notice... It's hard to have people arguing with you on what a woman looks like when they don't look at real life woman
God we were robbedAll this buff women talk reminded me of early concept art of Morrigan from Darkstalkers:
All this buff women talk reminded me of early concept art of Morrigan from Darkstalkers:
The second one appears to be a homage to Devilman.
Paladin's next season pass is magical girl based, so besides the whole amount of tights in display we have a new case of "what happens if the clothing color is too close to the character skin color" xD
versus
All this buff women talk reminded me of early concept art of Morrigan from Darkstalkers:
To be fair, if there is a character ever made that NEEDS to be the definiton of generic beauty standard IS morrigan xD
Yeah. Considered not posting my response to the other post basically for this reason but it was there and I'm not wrong.
Abby just looks like a typical, conventionally attractive woman who likes lifting that everyone has come across irl. Contending that is like when people described Nathan Drake as an everyman when he looked like an underwear model. It's dumb.
I don't think we need to find a character attractive in order to think they're great. That sounds rather regressive.
Lemme play as old woman Ellie who wants to reunite with Dina or some shit in the sequel. Would be interesting to have a female protagonist in that age range.
Usually a Devilman tribute.
Lemme play as old woman Ellie who wants to reunite with Dina or some shit in the sequel. Would be interesting to have a female protagonist in that age range.
Usually a Devilman tribute.
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People still call HZD's Aloy 'man-ish' because she doesn't have overly 'video game generic' feminine looks.
Aloy and basically every woman in that god damn game is great. War Chief Sona? My god what a commanding strong woman.
Gamers: *insert non anime-waifu'd female design* She looks mannish as hell which women should just not do
Also gamers: playing jrgs, especially final fantasy: Look the term for them is actually bishonen and the reason is because cultural differences in japan say that men who are overly mannish are actually weak, so male characters having feminine aspects is actually a sign of their masculinity and in this essay I will prove...
Also gamers: playing jrgs, especially final fantasy: Look the term for them is actually bishonen and the reason is because cultural differences in japan say that men who are overly mannish are actually weak, so male characters having feminine aspects is actually a sign of their masculinity and in this essay I will prove...
Agreed. It gets kinda creepy when a lot of design discussions revolve around "is this hot?"
People really need to learn to separate their fetishes from these conversations. These are video game characters, not porn stars.
The world doesn't revolve around your kinks.
Definitely gotta give kudos to the character designers at GG.
You just described SNK Heroines, the game where those designs are from. That's basically what they did to everyone in the game.I have no idea who this is, but I looked her up, and..... the internet is telling me she looked like this in her earliest appearances:
Fantastic. Way to ruin a stylish design for the sake of generic and incredibly gratuitous fanservice. Goddamnit,.
Playing from the perspective of the old witch would be a fun concept for a video game.
Oh, right yeah. That fucking game. The one that had the female Terry that was 75 percent less clothed than male Terry.
God, fuck this shit.
ND could still improve on the variety front. They are pretty good when it comes to having practical clothing (no bikini-armors and exploring & fighting in a post-apocalyptic world in high heels), fairly realistic looking women (pretty, but not sex-dolled up to a ridiculous degree), having some representation outside of just white characters (at least when it comes to the in-game models...), and Abby is a good addition as of TLOU2, but I feel (almost) all of their female characters are still on the "could be a Hollywood star/model in her prime 20s/30s" side of the scale. They could have a bit more variety when it comes to age, size as well as overall looks of women (adult Ellie, Dina, Elena, Chloe, Nadine, Abby, Marlene etc. are all strikingly beautiful women, and probably all of them under 40). Men have some of that too (part of the same Hollywood star issue), but there are also some that aren't so traditionally handsome (or handsome at all), quite a few old(er) male characters and such. Like, I can't think of anyone comparable to Bill on ND's female character side.
True, I guess it's a give them more time thing. I think when/if they do add a stockier female character it'll be done with respect at least. Marlowe and Sully are at least old, but they're not playable leads.
Oh, right yeah. That fucking game. The one that had the female Terry that was 75 percent less clothed than male Terry.
God, fuck this shit.
Obnoxious as the outfit is, what really bugs me is the pigeon-toes. I have never, not for a second, understood how that came to be such a stupid design fad in bad female character design.
It's infantilization. Like so many things in otaku-targeted character design, it's meant to make female characters look and act more like children.
User banned (permanent): repeatedly trolling the thread with sexism and condescending behaviour, account in junior phase
It seems like my post with "strong jaw" is being appropriated. I never said women with strong jaw lines shouldn't exist, that no one find them attractive, that there is some thing wrong with them. I simply stated what I find attractive as one voice in the world. Certainly all of you have things you don't find attractive that other do. It's not a statement what women should look like.
If you wan't to take my statement about the jaw line as some typical anit-woman opinion then what about this example: It's very common that women don't find men shorter than them selves attractive. Is it wrong to be a short man no. Is it something many women prefer yes.
If you wan't to take my statement about the jaw line as some typical anit-woman opinion then what about this example: It's very common that women don't find men shorter than them selves attractive. Is it wrong to be a short man no. Is it something many women prefer yes.
As stated above, it's an example of infantilism as it's a trait normally seen in small children. But it's also something women actually do in Japan in order to accentuate youthfulness and submissiveness. So it's truth in fiction but also part of the long list of nonsensical actions that society motivates women to perform.
I feel like this complaint is mostly just inherent to the medium of entertainment. Starring roles are basically always gonna go with the most attractive/appealing option. At least with multiplayer games you have some opportunity to make more varied designs for female characters, but you can guarantee that one of the characters is gonna just follow conventional beauty standards. Bleeding Edge is the first game that comes to mind regarding variety of designs, but that game is pretty much dead so I can't say how relevant it is.
I've been waiting for this thread to get to The Last of Us 2 discourse because I have some strong thoughts that, while they aren't really related to this threads theme about female character design, this thread is the closest good thread I feel like exists on this forum as far as posting my thoughts on the game as a Lesbian. The gay threads are usually pretty dead, and I feel like this thread can kind of double as a nice "minority perspectives on gaming" safe space sometimes.
But I see the current discourse is some fucking dude mentioning whether or not they would want to bone abby for no reason, so maybe I'll wait for another time.
But I see the current discourse is some fucking dude mentioning whether or not they would want to bone abby for no reason, so maybe I'll wait for another time.
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Yeah, I know, that's what I alluted to by the "Hollywood star issue", but supporting casts can be open for everyone nowadays!
No, go ahead, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts and helping us get away from level of discourse.
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