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Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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High heels in general are fucking stupid. I don't really get the appeal unless the goal is just to be taller... and you don't need heels to be taller. It's like the pigeon-toed thing. Intentionally hurting yourself to meet someone else's standards of beauty.
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Because M Byleth wasn't designed with any sexism in mind, he fit the actual bill, FemByleth was designed with the clear goal of being sexualized. Nothing of value would've been lost if they went with this:
Fem Byleth's actual design is pretty cringe and looks hella out of place compared to default Byleth.
You guys think maybe you're getting a bit hyperbolic with Byleth? Yeah, Byleth falls under the thread topic, but it feels like we're wavering on the line between criticizing the design for being sexist and just calling everything superficially feminine or associated with sex bad.
Yeah, big breast are used to push juvenilely sexy designs. But Byleth's design doesn't really do that. The fact that some posters didn't even notice it highlights how irrelevant it is, so why are we talking about it like it's a core part of the design? Why are we using it as an example of why Byleth has a sexualized character design when it's not being used to sex up the character?
I feel kind of crazy browsing this thread sometimes. Is anyone else noticing this?
Yeah, big breast are used to push juvenilely sexy designs. But Byleth's design doesn't really do that. The fact that some posters didn't even notice it highlights how irrelevant it is, so why are we talking about it like it's a core part of the design? Why are we using it as an example of why Byleth has a sexualized character design when it's not being used to sex up the character?
Except half the time we're not talking about how it's out of place or there for titillation, we're just trash talking high heels and leggings in general. Sometimes posters don't make a distinction between real and fictional people. It's gotten better, but IIRC at one point we had posters calling outfits slutty, and when they were called out the same argument got thrown out... but they were talking about the outfit, not the character.
I feel kind of crazy browsing this thread sometimes. Is anyone else noticing this?
Female Byleth's outfit doesn't match her mercenary status. Simple as that. Nothing wrong with criticizing the high heels and leggings. They're worthless in a fight and a hindrance as well.
But, if cosplayers are just going to gravitate toward the sexualized designs to dress up as as opposed to something else (from what I hear, 2B is crazy popular in that community), I don't see how the needle gets pushed anywhere. Doesn't it just become tacit approval, butt crack and all? lol
I meant for a dancer outfit, not cosplay wise, cosplayers can do whatever they feel comfortable with, that's the point of the whole thing xD
Where are you hearing this? People have been pointing to the breast Armor, leggings and generally how male Byleth is completely covered up while FByleth isn't for what comes down to sexualized reasons.
It's not about a character being sexy or not. They didn't have to do any of that to make Male Byleth sexy after all. There's no reason to assume FByleth wouldn't be sexy without all of mentioned above.
The fact of the matter is that a male character can just have the outfit that his job/role requires, nothing more, nothing less, no added bullshit, no nothing. Female characters though, they also have to be compromised between that and ALSO looking feminine. It's bullshit if you ask me. There's a place for anything of course but, it's tiring that it's a rule that almost always apply. I don't know wtf is that FE character and I don't really give a crap about the game, but I wonder why this, as posted before, isn't possible.
It's the same way about a game I'm currently playing, The Witcher 3, where a character is constantly on the run around the world to not get killed... and wears friggin high heels.
It's the same way about a game I'm currently playing, The Witcher 3, where a character is constantly on the run around the world to not get killed... and wears friggin high heels.
The belly button window is at the prefect height to be easily disembowled on the battlefield.Because M Byleth wasn't designed with any sexism in mind, he fit the actual bill, FemByleth was designed with the clear goal of being sexualized. Nothing of value would've been lost if they went with this:
I started playing Tokyo Mirage Sessions this weekend and wow is the design atrocious, game play is fun but design... ugh ~_~ I thought I was prepared, thought to myself battle costumes are going to be ridiculous with boob plate and bikini armor and needless skin but it's not just that. Every character you meet so far has enormous boobs (or is a child) with bad jiggle "physics" and proportions that don't make any kind of sense, but its not just that! The thing, the final straw that made me, a dude, want to stop playing the damn thing, is that none of these women know how to buy a god damned shirt that fits. Look at this:
Why does FemByleth need to appear superficially feminine, what's NOT superficially feminine about an adjustment of the male byleth outfit. Why does Fem Byleth need to be associated with sex? She's a mercenary.
The game takes place in a medieval society were the character has the role of a mercenary and a teacher.
The reason that sexualised designs get criticised so much is because the likewise the majority of games have their characters almost entirely in the careers of combat proffesionalists of some sort, be it soldiers or police or knights, etc...
Even saying that few of the sexualised designs often posted in this thread would be worn irl even taking into account how sexualised modern fashion can be.
In the case of Byleth, by nature, the existance of the male versions outfit makes the outfit worse. Because it hilights how differently the character would have (well actually is) been designed more appropriately and aithentically for their character description had they been the male option.
When the male version of a character is designed to look cool, and the female version is designed to look cute/sexy, you're making a very unsubtle point about how you view gender roles in society (and, equally, about who you expect to be playing the game).
Female Byleth is far from the worst individual example, but she comes up a lot because she is the result of various easily identifiable gender-based design tropes that are made all the more obvious by the existence of a direct male counterpart that she can be compared to.
F!Byleth is shorter than M!Byleth, and has a larger and rounder head and eyes than M!Byleth, making her appear younger. F!Byleth shows more skin than M!Byleth, dropping the pants, long sleeves, and gloves, exposing part of her chest, and culminating in that absolutely ridiculous belly window. Other elements of her outfit shift around to 'accentuate' her body, like the symbol from M!Byleth's belt moving up to F!Byleth's chest to accentuate her breasts. F!Byleth, a mercenary turned combat teacher turned army general, wears heels, because ... that's what women do, right?
There's much worse examples of each of these individual tropes elsewhere, but F!Byleth is all of them at once, and the existence of a direct male counterpart makes them all quite a bit more noticeable and frustrating. She feels out of place in every shot I've seen her in and her design is one of the primary reasons that I can't bring myself to play Three Houses.
F!Byleth is shorter than M!Byleth, and has a larger and rounder head and eyes than M!Byleth, making her appear younger. F!Byleth shows more skin than M!Byleth, dropping the pants, long sleeves, and gloves, exposing part of her chest, and culminating in that absolutely ridiculous belly window. Other elements of her outfit shift around to 'accentuate' her body, like the symbol from M!Byleth's belt moving up to F!Byleth's chest to accentuate her breasts. F!Byleth, a mercenary turned combat teacher turned army general, wears heels, because ... that's what women do, right?
There's much worse examples of each of these individual tropes elsewhere, but F!Byleth is all of them at once, and the existence of a direct male counterpart makes them all quite a bit more noticeable and frustrating. She feels out of place in every shot I've seen her in and her design is one of the primary reasons that I can't bring myself to play Three Houses.
There was a thread the other day where someone brusquely asked whether this game was the embarrassing kind of anime, and most responses were indignant fury at the suggestion. I figured they were just getting defensive over their love of anime boobs, and this confirms it!I started playing Tokyo Mirage Sessions this weekend and wow is the design atrocious, game play is fun but design... ugh ~_~ I thought I was prepared, thought to myself battle costumes are going to be ridiculous with boob plate and bikini armor and needless skin but it's not just that. Every character you meet so far has enormous boobs (or is a child) with bad jiggle "physics" and proportions that don't make any kind of sense, but its not just that! The thing, the final straw that made me, a dude, want to stop playing the damn thing, is that none of these women know how to buy a god damned shirt that fits. Look at this:
The Mirages (Fire emblem characters) are really out there
There also some out of place dialogue choices. When you first meeting Kiria there a choice of saying "You asking me out?" despite being your first time meeting her and the context of the meeting was for her to give your character tickets for her performance to have encourage your friend Tsubasa.
I do generally like this game with character looking to do singing, acting, and modeling for reasonable reasons but does have questionable positions.
There also some out of place dialogue choices. When you first meeting Kiria there a choice of saying "You asking me out?" despite being your first time meeting her and the context of the meeting was for her to give your character tickets for her performance to have encourage your friend Tsubasa.
I do generally like this game with character looking to do singing, acting, and modeling for reasonable reasons but does have questionable positions.
Also pidgen toes everywhere which anoy me to no end, like everyone broke their legs growing up and never healed right. Also the main female character has the personality of a wet blanket. Personally, I think the indecisive submisive Japanese girl is a worse trope than any of the outfit choices, you're saving the world in an RPG grow a fucking spine. Don't get me started on the girl who does have a spine...but wait stop me if you've seen this one, she puts on a bitchy facade but looks like she might secretly like cute things.. AAAARRRGGGG! *screams into the void*
Is it embarrassing anime bullshit? Yes, embarrassing anime bullshit.
I started playing Tokyo Mirage Sessions this weekend and wow is the design atrocious, game play is fun but design... ugh ~_~ I thought I was prepared, thought to myself battle costumes are going to be ridiculous with boob plate and bikini armor and needless skin but it's not just that. Every character you meet so far has enormous boobs (or is a child) with bad jiggle "physics" and proportions that don't make any kind of sense, but its not just that! The thing, the final straw that made me, a dude, want to stop playing the damn thing, is that none of these women know how to buy a god damned shirt that fits. Look at this:
You literally have people to Walking around pax in similar outfits becuase it's comfy.
Sometimes a spade is just a spade.
Feels like there's a balance to be had.
This has already been addressed and I noticed you never responded to it. Instead....ignoring it and bringing up that the thigh high on Byleth matches someone's wedding dress. Which ofc, is ABSOLUTELY fitting for a mercenary and not an example of bad character design. 🤦♂️
Yep, this. She's choosing to wear the clothes cus she wants to, which is fine cus her choice. But she's not wearing it for comfort lol. Too tight clothes are not comfy, and like, everyone who's ever worn clothes knows that, things that dig into you aren't comfortable, it's pretty obvious.
I guess what makes it an artist choice, versus in that fictional universe it being the choice of that said character.
I guess when I think of oversexualizaled characters I think of how the camera focuses on the character more than a design. Stuff like Cindy pumping Gas in FFXV or Quiet in the lap dance part.
The fact that characters have no autonomy and are designed by people making choices for a target demographic.
Consider that Fem Byleth looks completely out of place compared to Male it's an example that's valid for criticism. It doesn't have to go as far as characters like Quiet and Cindy. And note, fem and male byleth have identical personalities and backstories. Why as a woman would she suddenly choose to expose vulnerable areas but as a man he wears as much armor and robes as possible.
Underrated idea here.
When games make sexy, it's basically always a woman spilling out of her top.
TBH less than a sexualized design bothering me (I can appreciate that sometimes us girls enjoy dressing up – granted, usually never for the battlefield and with breast-accentuating armors), but I get more infuriated by "the pervy cameraman" that ensures (whether in 3D design or in artwork) that a girls ass/chest is making a point of being in the camera.
This outfit is not especially sexualized. But the pose definitely is.
Here is the original Amelia which, while maybe not great to defend yourself, is still cute and relatively innocuously designed:
And there is NO right context for this Amelia where being put into a Gacha game means you're in a pose like you want it up your bum:
Similar outfits, very different compositions
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Please, PLEASE read the OP. This has been covered a million times.
"She chose to wear it" also implies the creators put actual thought into worldbuilding beyond pretentious Proper Noun Lore.
I'm not arguing in favor of F!Byleth's design. My point isn't that the design is good or fine (I hated it at first); it's the way people talk about the design over the last couple pages that I have an issue with. Non-stop nit-picking and vapid jokes about details that don't matter transitioning into criticism of physical features and outfit choices independent of the design itself, and by extension criticizing the real people who have and wear them. This is a reoccurring pattern. Did everyone just skip the second half of my post? If it's the same post it's probably still relevant, doesn't matter if I'm not responding to you specifically.
I'm not saying that F!Byleth should be sexy so we should leave her breast alone; I'm saying that her breast aren't being used to make her sexy, so why are talking about it as if they are? At that point we're just criticizing the idea of having big breast. If the above edit were the official design, would we be criticizing that she has bigger hip-to-waist ratio than M!Byleth?
I'm not saying don't criticize unnecessarily sexualized of objectified female designs; I'm saying keep that to the design itself and don't make post criticizing the real outfits and features of real people.
If I'm being honest, I've actually grown to like F!Byleth's design because of how boring M!Byleth. As silly as I think F!Byleth looks, she's the one with an interesting design, and a lot of the minor changes (color usage and coat) and big flubs (patterned leggings) would improve both of their designs if tweaked a bit. F!Byleth is the better base.
I'm not saying that F!Byleth should be sexy so we should leave her breast alone; I'm saying that her breast aren't being used to make her sexy, so why are talking about it as if they are? At that point we're just criticizing the idea of having big breast. If the above edit were the official design, would we be criticizing that she has bigger hip-to-waist ratio than M!Byleth?
I'm not saying don't criticize unnecessarily sexualized of objectified female designs; I'm saying keep that to the design itself and don't make post criticizing the real outfits and features of real people.
I agree with all of this except the implication that M!Byleth is sexy (or interesting to look at). I didn't say F!Byleth should be sexy or that she needs to have those elements to be sexy.
I never said she had to be designed to be sexy. I'm asking why are we criticizing general feminine traits regardless of how they are used or function within a design? Why are we acting like M!Byleth's design is an agender default and not in itself masculine? He's a series of cylindrical black robes with almost 0 human form or definition, the armor and varying shades of black/gray making him look bigger and bulkier than he actually is. The only exception is that his readied stance makes him look like he's wearing basketball shorts and a belt. He's likely the template, but his design is still gendered.
That would be a solid point if most of the characters were dressed for war, but they're not. Half the characters aren't dressed to go out on a battlefield, they're just designed to look like they belong in the setting. F!Byleth fails at that too to be fair (she sticks out like a sore thumb), but that's more so the result of her design just not matching the general aesthetics and style of the setting.
If I'm being honest, I've actually grown to like F!Byleth's design because of how boring M!Byleth. As silly as I think F!Byleth looks, she's the one with an interesting design, and a lot of the minor changes (color usage and coat) and big flubs (patterned leggings) would improve both of their designs if tweaked a bit. F!Byleth is the better base.
Again, where are you seeing this happen? Where are people criticizing people who choose to wear patterned leggings?
People are criticizing her boob armor, not the fact that she has boobs.
As for this...
2 things.
1. This thread is mainly focused around sexualized designs. MByleth at the very least isn't sexualized. If you want a thread criticizing his design then by all means open that discussion but don't ask why people aren't criticizing his non sexualized design in the sexualized design thread.
2. None of what you mentioned (the robes, looking bigger and bulkier, etc) are a matter of making something look more masculine. A woman can have all of those things and still look feminine.
Does this model look masculine to you?
Where are her vagina bones? Looks like a dude to me. /s
Genuine question: If they aren't, why does she have a breast window, why does that breast window not exist on M!Byleth, and why is the camera often focused on either her breasts, or showcasing her breasts (even when the rest of her is off frame in two occasions)? Camera shots are not accidental, framing is entirely on purpose and often more important than the individual pieces of cloth being worn.
Also, can you explain why a woman couldn't wear M!Byleths clothing? Can women never be "Bulky"? Is it forbidden for women to wear pants? Really, you are saying a lot of things about this thread cruelly oppressing people's clothing but... are you SURE the thread is the problem? You're doing more of that in one single post than I've seen the people you're arguing against do in three pages ô.o
Does this model look masculine to you?
I love it. :/ lol
Why can't we have normal things sometimes?
No, but that's also not the M!Byleth's design. To be honest, I missed the actual model and was focusing on the promo art edit when I made the original post, and it's not the same as the model. This design is a lot more gender neutral (long skirt under the shirt, slimmer coat that better tracks to the body, and the torso armor tapers at the waist like the F!Byleth edit, but is flat at the hips like M!Byleth). It's minor, but it makes a difference.
You don't have to outright say 'people who wear x' to cross the line from criticizing a design to criticizing a person. If someone say that an outfit or certain article of clothing makes a character look slutty or like a sex doll, why should I assume that stops applying once it's a three dimensional person wearing it? And people we'rent criticizing the boob armor, they were criticizing that the model has big breasts. The armor wasn't mentioned.
If you're looking for specific examples of something more egregious than 'I hate high heels', you're gonna have to dig a little. Like I said, the thread is a lot better about it than it used to be. My point was that the argument that a fictional character is different from a real person rings hollow when it's the real world articles of clothing being criticized.
I'm not here to criticize M!Byleth's design either, but using it as the default to judge F!Byleth is flawed imo. You're right, none of it is necessarily masculine. I'd also argue that the skirt in the edited F!Byleth's model outfit isn't necessarily feminine, but that doesn't change the fact that skirts are associated with women and femininity. Most of what I listed is subtle. I only noticed them when looking at the two side by side. But I also only went looking for it because I noticed something about his design seemed off to me when compared to F!Byleth (and more specifically, the mixed design from @roisale posted a couple pages back).
https://twitter.com/roisale/status/1154780542858080256
She likely has a breast window because it's a design trope in JRPG and anime styled designs, and she'd likely have it regardless of breast size. The off camera shots are bad, but it's really the only time I've noticed where it really stands out, and I have a hard time buying that they gave her big breasts just for those specific angles. I'll admit I might just be wrong on that and completely missing obvious moments where it comes off as fetishistic, but the fact that I haven't really noticed the size highlighted is what makes it seem irrelevant to me.
And a woman can wear that same outfit (and *gasp* even still look like a woman), but that doesn't change the fact that M!Byleth's design goes out of its way to obscure his form and give him a bigger and bulkier build than he actually has (specifically his arms and torso), in ways generally associated with men. The choices are subtle, but they are still design choices, and they contribute to the effect.
And I'm not on a crusade against the thread or anything like that. I'm just pointing out somethings people do that frustrate me a bit and asking for a bit of self reflection. I don't mean to come off as super aggressive. If you guys think I'm wrong or getting hung up over nothing, that's fine. Most of my first post was questions and requests, not condemnations.
They don't have to be identical, they just have to wear the same outfit. Nothing about the outfit should change based on gender. You keep arguing that Fem Byleth has general feminine traits but there's a huge difference between that and very clearly being designed to appeal to straight dudes.
I can't tell if you're being disingenuous or obtuse here. Criticizing, say, high heels on a warrior's design has nothing to do with real women wearing high heels at some office party.
Word, Pillars is so good. No shortage of great and diverse character designs. Lots of prominent female characters and huge range of ages and appearances. Especially Deadfire cause every NPC has a portrait and not just the main characters.
Companions/Sidekicks:
(Not in Deadfire, but Maneha rules)
NPCs:
Now this, THIS is fantastic design. OMG, PoE is going up on my priority list!!!
well, maybe this is the core of the issue here, and something that needs to be changed.
The point of the whole thread is to point out why this is wrong and should change. If Western companies like Blizzard and NetherRealm can evolve form these lazy ass 'fan service' designs so can Japanese devs. Enough with the excuses.
And you have played the export version. Wait till you play the original Japanese one....Though usually in such cases where they modify things, it becomes even more of a mess. Eg they still retain the "breast jiggle physics". Also despite removing the bikini of Tsubasa, she still retains it in the special move "Tsubasa Kiss". Dont know if they fixed it in the new version.
Mib , regardless of your stance it seems like you agree the designs are lazy. And yeah, the designs are lazy. While that's obviously a problem, it's worse when it's targeted, and in this case, coming at the expense of women. You come off as very dismissive when you say things like, "well it's just an anime trope." People here know that; that's what we're railing against. Tropes, especially for women, tend to be far more negative than positive, whereas with males they're typically either positive or neutral. The sexualization of women in media is a cultural phenomenon that has been perpetuated for no reason other than to ensure women remain second-class citizens.
You realize that "three dimensional" people are not characters created and mandated by large groups of mostly men for the purpose of selling products and perpetuating ideas right? What people decide to wear out of their own agency is not even in the same ballpark as what images groups decide to perpetuate based on regressive biases. You are coming at this from a completely dismissive and kinda bad faith point of view and you should probably read through the thread some more so that you can understand what the problems are with these things in a fictional space.
Also thank you for not pointing to any examples in this thread of your previous accusation.
No duh, do you think these tropes come out of thin air? There are based cultures that value women in media putting their bodies on display above all else, hence why said trope does not exist for men or if so in an incredibly tiny capacity.
But you said it . It's a fan service . It means this is what fans wants .
Honestly at the end of the day games in general are a fantasy. I do not see a problem with looking at a sexualized fantasy video gamers regardless of her body and or her dress look like. It's not like a bayonetta figure will change my view on how women look. Or what a final fantasy male character isn't a representation of what male should look like.
The thing that I can get offended of if I am playing an adult looking sexualized game and my kid is in the living room watching . They should specify that in the game box aside from the rating
I also get offended when I am a playing a character that Dev tell me she is above 18 but she looks 12 and almost naked . Fuck that :/
Why would they? Fan service sells, until it doesn't they'll continue.
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