Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

residentgrigo · Nov 11, 2019

Yep, Joe2187. The so-called Biomorts. In itself a good topic for a dark cyberpunk game. Which Policenauts very much struggles to be. Half the reason they exist is to justify this rather long scene (it features as much "fanservice" as you expect):

The later Biomort reveal is further a direct recreation of the sci-fi vampires B movie/softcore-porno Lifeforce by Cannon Films (Kojima is a huge trash fan):

The better-known PSX "remake" changed the lab, maybe due to copyright reasons. Your incest remark reminded me of the game´s (other) CRAZY incest plot. Buckle up. No discussion about Kojima (remember Emma from MGS 2?) is complete without it.

The lead Jonathan was in a 28-year long cryosleep coma and though dead. His wife gets killed in the prologue but she remarried and had a daughter who is secretly his kid. You come this close to having sex with Karen and it´s pretty ambiguous how close both are to figuring out what their relationship is then. Regardless of the whole ex-wife thing, or the fact that both are grieving her. Jonathan leaves the colony for many reasons in a genuinely emotional ending but she is one of the reasons he can´t stay. I repeat, him settling down with his barely younger daughter is a legit moral quandary for the protagonist.
Karen is clearly not over him and you get a lot of infodumps about genetics due to very convoluted reasons.

Lethal Weapon - In Space may be the most Kojima thing ever. The highlights are high and the lows... dear god.

Derpot · Nov 11, 2019

Veelk said:
I haven't played Death Stranding and I don't plan to unless I somehow get it cheap on PC and am bored enough to try it out, so I'm watching this pretty much without the greater context of the rest of the game and as a result, I might be wrong in how I'm reading it. But just watching that scene without context, I want to note how misogynistic this exchange comes off as. A lot of the criticism in this thread focus' on the visual design, so a lot of people are gonna look at this and take away that Kojima just had a woman stripped down to her underwear so the player can oogle her, and sure, that's part of the nastiness of this scene.

But the narrative is sexist in design here too. You could make the argument that the character had to be naked so that the timefall could hit their skin and accelerate their aging and in that respect it would not be different if Fragile were a man. Okay, sure. But then he goes on and on about how important Fragile's looks are to her and how he's ruining her by taking them away. His punishment to her is to make her a caricature of womanhood in that while her face will still be pretty, her body will be shamed for being old and gross.

And I want to emphasize that it didn't have to be this way. Getting old is a fear for many people that goes beyond just not looking as good as you did when you were young. It's about weakness and yoru body breaking down on you and realizing your life is going to end soon and worrying about your legacy and so on,etc. It didn't have to just be about looks, it could have been framed as her giving up her life. But the guy whose using this as a weapon against her specifically goes in on how ugly her body will be once she's old and sadistically framing this as the worst thing that can happen to her, which is why her running through the timefall with the bomb is the ultimate sacrifice she can make - not because she's giving up her lifespan or youthful strength, but her attractiveness.

Yeaaaah... the argument here basically seems to be: "haha you won't look pretty anymore because this is the only thing you care about, right, I mean, as a woman, even in a post-apocalyptic context, your looks are on the top of your priority list!"
It wouldn't have been about looks and beauty if Fragile was male. It would have focused on the weakness part, as you said, which is a valid point for any genders.
I haven't played Death Stranding yet, I watch my big bro playing it because I'm very intrigued by it, and Fragile doesn't seem the kind of woman who absolutely cares about her looks.
I think the main argument that people will come out with is that Higgs is a sadistic piece of shit and him acting misogynistic towards Fragile is fitting. So the punishment he gives to her (making her body old and ugly to ruin her feminity or something) is "in character".

The camera in the scene is uh quite bad though. The focus on her butt, especially given the context, is tasteless and unnecessary, also ruins the seriousness of the scene :/
I know we see some male characters naked too but does the camera focus on their butts that much? So far I haven't seen anything similar

Deleted member 4976 · Nov 11, 2019

Jaded Photographer said:
Fragile for the most part seems to be a very strong character she just really didn't need that scene.

What makes Kojima in particular infuriating is that, for me, he makes games with gameplay I consider excellent.

I've always thought he's been shit at writing. Part of the reason I consider Metal Gear Solid V an amazing game is because I like that open world stealth gameplay but also because it was an affirmation that the man sucks at writing, something I've believed for a long time and watching hardcore fans come to accept that reality with MGSV was strangely fascinating.

A similar problem arises in Death Stranding. I've been playing it for about 25 hours. Of that, I've spent maybe 1-2 hours in cutscenes/dialogue. The rest has been pure gameplay. And I know when I get to that shitty stuff, because god knows there must be abhorrent stuff, it makes the experience even more jarring because the rest of the game is fairly normal (and weird).

The 23+ hours of gameplay don't really have any problematic issues I've spotted. The dialogue is stilted but not by itself problematic. I have seen a ton of Norman Reedus ass but that's too be expected.

It's a weird, fascinating, relaxing and tension filled game that feels surprisingly refreshing in how much it pushes you away from the act of violence and encourages social cooperation.

That is all to say, Death Stranding, like MGSV, is a game where the weakest aspect is absolutely the writing. And I'm already not looking forward to when that writing takes over and entangles what is otherwise a cool and interesting world with Kojima's misogynistic shit.

Jaded Photographer · Nov 11, 2019

Primethius said:
What makes Kojima in particular infuriating is that, for me, he makes games with gameplay I consider excellent.

I've always thought he's been shit at writing. Part of the reason I consider Metal Gear Solid V an amazing game is because I like that open world stealth gameplay but also because it was an affirmation that the man sucks at writing, something I've believed for a long time and watching hardcore fans come to accept that reality with MGSV was strangely fascinating.

A similar problem arises in Death Stranding. I've been playing it for about 25 hours. Of that, I've spent maybe 1-2 hours in cutscenes/dialogue. The rest has been pure gameplay. And I know when I get to that shitty stuff, because god knows there must be abhorrent stuff, it makes the experience even more jarring because the rest of the game is fairly normal (and weird).

The 23+ hours of gameplay don't really have any problematic issues I've spotted. The dialogue is stilted but not by itself problematic. I have seen a ton of Norman Reedus ass but that's too be expected.

It's a weird, fascinating, relaxing and tension filled game that feels surprisingly refreshing in how much it pushes you away from the act of violence and encourages social cooperation.

That is all to say, Death Stranding, like MGSV, is a game where the weakest aspect is absolutely the writing. And I'm already not looking forward to when that writing takes over and entangles what is otherwise a cool and interesting world with Kojima's misogynistic shit.

Considering how much I didn't really enjoy MGS V I kind of knew I wouldn't enjoy Death Stranding. At best I see it as a $30 experiment buy. The last open world game I even liked was Horizon and that's because the gameplay loop was fun and I adored Aloy and most of her cast of friends...I don't think I'll be able to say the same thing about Death Stranding. Death Stranding also seems like it's gameplay loop is just completely boring for me. I already know the story goes places based on streams and opens up, it just does it at a very slow and tedious pace.

Kinsei said:
I don't think he'll ever allow himself to be eigned in again. He's completkly full of himself if his response to Death Stranding's critical reception being lower than he expected is anything to go by.

So far my favorite streamer response to Death Stranding has been Drk29's the other half of the OuterHeaven group (they marathon Metal Gear Solid games routinely) is, "I just wanted a well made game," which he felt that he didn't get so far.

Deleted member 8583 · Nov 11, 2019

Just for curiosity, why if you know a game is problematic and made by a mysoginist you still buy it? Not trying to start a fight or something, just interested in the answer.

To me that's something really easy to boycott, but I know not everyone sees it like that.

Jaded Photographer · Nov 11, 2019

Devenir Ácrata said:
Just for curiosity, why if you know a game is problematic and made by a mysoginist you still buy it? Not trying to start a fight or something, just interested in the answer.

To me that's something really easy to boycott, but I know not everyone sees it like that.

Some shit you just have to experience, critique and pass your own judgement on for yourself. I boycott Activision, but I bought Sekiro because I like to support From Software. I boycott EA, but I'm contemplating buying the new Star Wars game to support a single player Star Wars game because EA thinks they're too unprofitable to make.

Deleted member 4976 · Nov 11, 2019

Devenir Ácrata said:
Just for curiosity, why if you know a game is problematic and made by a mysoginist you still buy it? Not trying to start a fight or something, just interested in the answer.

To me that's something really easy to boycott, but I know not everyone sees it like that.

I think that's a fair question. I don't really have a good answer truth be told. I feel like with gaming, I have bought plenty of games with questionable/problematic things (even this year: Fire Emblem, Astral Chain for example) and I think that's mostly fine if you are willing to be critical of it (given how prevalent problematic issues tend to be in games).

For this game, I'd say: I've never been a fan of Kojima's writing and it's not the reason I buy his games. This is one of those titles, like MGSV, where I'll put an absurd amount of hours into the game actual which doesn't have front-facing problematic content (e.g out 130 hours into MGSV, I spent a minimal amount interacting with the story or Quiet).

Now, if the problematic content was baked into the game so that when I'm playing it (e.g Quiet as a constant companion) and it's hard to avoid, I'd have much more apprehension about buying the game. But the majority of Death Stranding is Norman Reedus and the player in the wilderness.

Deleted member 8583 · Nov 11, 2019

Jaded Photographer said:
Some shit you just have to experience, critique and pass your own judgement on for yourself. I boycott Activision, but I bought Sekiro because I like to support From Software. I boycott EA, but I'm contemplating buying the new Star Wars game to support a single player Star Wars game because EA thinks they're too unprofitable to make.

I get your two examples, but none of them have the issues of a Kojima Game. They fall more in the despicable practices of big corporations publishing good games. And for the experience part, isn't it better to just watch it in YT and not give money to him?

Deleted member 8583 · Nov 11, 2019

Primethius said:
I think that's a fair question. I don't really have a good answer truth be told. I feel like with gaming, I have bought plenty of games with questionable/problematic things (even this year: Fire Emblem, Astral Chain for example) and I think that's mostly fine if you are willing to be critical of it (given how prevalent problematic issues tend to be in games).

For this game, I'd say: I've never been a fan of Kojima's writing and it's not the reason I buy his games. This is one of those titles, like MGSV, where I'll put an absurd amount of hours into the game actual which doesn't have front-facing problematic content (e.g out 130 hours into MGSV, I spent a minimal amount interacting with the story or Quiet).

Now, if the problematic content was baked into the game so that when I'm playing it (e.g Quiet as a constant companion) and it's hard to avoid, I'd have much more apprehension about buying the game. But the majority of Death Stranding is Norman Reedus and the player in the wilderness.

I guess my main issue with Kojima games is the intent he has with the problematic stuff he writes compared to games like FE and the fanbase he feeds with his mysogyny. So it falls more in the interesting gameplay part. I understand that when it comes to entertainment some stuff is hard to drop. A lot of factors play into that.

Jaded Photographer · Nov 11, 2019

Devenir Ácrata said:
I get your two examples, but none of them have the issues of a Kojima Game. They fall more in the despicable practices of big corporations publishing good games. And for the experience part, isn't it better to just watch it in YT and not give money to him?

This is why I spent the weekend watching streams of it. If I even do buy it I'm buying it used. I have probably had more fun watching a streamer suffer through it along with Twitch chat than I ever will playing it myself.

Deleted member 4976 · Nov 11, 2019

Devenir Ácrata said:
I guess my main issue with Kojima games is the intent he has with the problematic stuff he writes compared to games like FE and the fanbase he feeds with his mysogyny. So it falls more in the interesting gameplay part. I understand that when it comes to entertainment some stuff is hard to drop. A lot of factors play into that.

That's definitely true. Kojima's misogynistic streak is definitely more rooted in the games, more part of the story and world when it appears (e.g. Quiet being such a blatant example).

Again, I don't really have a good answer. I suppose for me, I've always discarded Kojima as a writer and felt that his stories were a bunch of nonsensical shit. So a game with a 90 to 10 gameplay to cutscene ratio is easier to stomach when I know he's going to have some of that shit in there to begin with.

I guess it really just comes down to that period of gameplay time where I'm not faced with problematic shit and how much of that there is. I've played Death Stranding for longer than it took me to beat Astral Chain for example. In AC, the problems were readily apparent and in your face, however minor they might seem in comparison to DS. On the other hand, in that 25+ hours of DS so far, I haven't run into the problematic stuff (yet). And I suppose that uninterrupted flow of relatively unproblematic gameplay time is what let's me be okay with playing his titles (I'm not making that as a definitive statement, simply saying I haven't noticed any).

Not a great answer but that's how I see it so far.

Turin · Nov 11, 2019

As someone who loved MGS growing up, I'm resigned to the possibility of never playing a Kojima game again. Some of the stuff I read in Plums thread broke any chance I'm trying Death Stranding(that bit about linking declining birth rates with lack of sexual harassment/assault particularly pissed me off). Guess I don't have the tolerance I used to have.

residentgrigo · Nov 11, 2019

MGS and Hitman are the only sneaking games left so I just had to get MGS V regardless of content Devenir Ácrata to even have a genre to play. The game could have been by someone else, be openly racist (i am a mixed-race immigrant), misrepresent war crimes (hello CoD), etc and I would have gotten it anyway around launch due to the sky-high MC. I got it used though. The story is an F but the gameplay is an A- so I finished every side mission in the game.

MGS V has skippable cutscenes (yet I listen to every tape despite hating 98% of the story) and Diamond Dog is the best companion anyway. You can even kill Quite right after her boss fight and that´s that. You could make the game devoid of women, outside the Parasite Unit enemies and random staff member you never see and enjoy THE best stealth mechanics of all time. Now that´s a thought experiment! MGS V: No context Testosterone.
And Destra, well. Kojima off the leash is madness you don´t get anywhere else and the gameplay looks amazing. It´s also again a partial sneaking game. My genre calling.

Rhaknar · Nov 11, 2019

esserius · Nov 11, 2019

Devenir Ácrata said:
I get your two examples, but none of them have the issues of a Kojima Game. They fall more in the despicable practices of big corporations publishing good games. And for the experience part, isn't it better to just watch it in YT and not give money to him?

For a lot of people, myself included, I'd say morbid curiosity or lately, FOMO. That said, I haven't really "bought" a Kojima game since Metal Gear Solid on the PSX. The rest I've always gotten second-hand, typically through places selling used or resold games. It took me a long time to finish MGS3, because a lot of games I don't spend much money on I just never do anything with. Mostly because I tend to think they aren't very good (meanwhile I've played Kind Words for hours because it's basically soul therapy for modern video gaming).

I'm of the opinion that, much like readers or film enthusiasts, life's too short for bullshit. So quite often, when I start seeing it in something I'm going through, I drop it and move on, knowing there's almost assuredly something better, and probably something better with similar or the same design (this isn't always the case). I do get frustrated when people refuse to take the discourse of someone who drops something early seriously though. I think they tend to be the best judges of the flaws in a piece of media because they see something that creates a fundamental schism between them and the media. I honestly wish more game reviewers were willing to do this instead of playing the entire game - and while you might say, "but it's their job!", sure, but it's also the job of people to know when to stop (everyone has seen an overdesigned website or an overengineered car) and part of the art of criticism is knowing what failure looks like and how to represent that linguistically.

Even as a revitalized maximalist, I'm not enough of one where the only goal is consumption; consumption of media should have purpose, should be reflective in some way (I do watch shows I know are trash - and a lot of the reason I do that, aside from being able to turn my brain off, is because it helps me appreciate good stuff - though I have had twinges of guilt in the past knowing I'm encouraging trash by consuming it). Otherwise, what's the point?

DragonKeeper · Nov 11, 2019

Devenir Ácrata said:
Just for curiosity, why if you know a game is problematic and made by a mysoginist you still buy it? Not trying to start a fight or something, just interested in the answer.

To me that's something really easy to boycott, but I know not everyone sees it like that.

For me, I just have to decide how much shit I'm willing to tolerate if I want to have something to play.

Deleted member 8583 · Nov 11, 2019

esserius said:
For a lot of people, myself included, I'd say morbid curiosity or lately, FOMO. That said, I haven't really "bought" a Kojima game since Metal Gear Solid on the PSX. The rest I've always gotten second-hand, typically through places selling used or resold games. It took me a long time to finish MGS3, because a lot of games I don't spend much money on I just never do anything with. Mostly because I tend to think they aren't very good (meanwhile I've played Kind Words for hours because it's basically soul therapy for modern video gaming).

I'm of the opinion that, much like readers or film enthusiasts, life's too short for bullshit. So quite often, when I start seeing it in something I'm going through, I drop it and move on, knowing there's almost assuredly something better, and probably something better with similar or the same design (this isn't always the case). I do get frustrated when people refuse to take the discourse of someone who drops something early seriously though. I think they tend to be the best judges of the flaws in a piece of media because they see something that creates a fundamental schism between them and the media. I honestly wish more game reviewers were willing to do this instead of playing the entire game - and while you might say, "but it's their job!", sure, but it's also the job of people to know when to stop (everyone has seen an overdesigned website or an overengineered car) and part of the art of criticism is knowing what failure looks like and how to represent that linguistically.

Even as a revitalized maximalist, I'm not enough of one where the only goal is consumption; consumption of media should have purpose, should be reflective in some way (I do watch shows I know are trash - and a lot of the reason I do that, aside from being able to turn my brain off, is because it helps me appreciate good stuff - though I have had twinges of guilt in the past knowing I'm encouraging trash by consuming it). Otherwise, what's the point?

To your last question, yeah, that should have been the point, but I think that with media / entertainment under the current reality we mostly live: Capitalistic, patriarchal, racist, sexist, homophobic, anthropocentric, of a Christian-centric moral, capacitist, Western-centric / Westernized ( and many more ) media / entertainment mostly becomes an escapism for reality ( with the bonus feature of normalizing all the control / exploitation relations ). That is why a lot of people want their media / entertainment as "apolitical" as possible ( even if they do not get that what they are consuming is actually political, it is content that normalizes the status quo on many occasions or that strengthens different control and/or exploitation relations against marginalized / minorities groups ). That is why, like you, I always applaud when people can drop something problematic and even construct a strong critic and/or take an ethical stand against it.

I get that is not easy to do that, so you can go may routes like consuming used things ( I mostly do that with clothes and kitchen stuff as I live in Mexico and we get many used things [that sometimes are like new] from the US for cheap ). Or just watching that stuff from a video stream. Or others ways that this place does not encourage q:

But yeah, we are longs ways from a different type of consumption, one that does not end this world we live on.

catswaller · Nov 11, 2019

Veelk said:
I haven't played Death Stranding and I don't plan to unless I somehow get it cheap on PC and am bored enough to try it out, so I'm watching this pretty much without the greater context of the rest of the game and as a result, I might be wrong in how I'm reading it. But just watching that scene without context, I want to note how misogynistic this exchange comes off as. A lot of the criticism in this thread focus' on the visual design, so a lot of people are gonna look at this and take away that Kojima just had a woman stripped down to her underwear so the player can oogle her, and sure, that's part of the nastiness of this scene.

But the narrative is sexist in design here too. You could make the argument that the character had to be naked so that the timefall could hit their skin and accelerate their aging and in that respect it would not be different if Fragile were a man. Okay, sure. But then he goes on and on about how important Fragile's looks are to her and how he's ruining her by taking them away. His punishment to her is to make her a caricature of womanhood in that while her face will still be pretty, her body will be shamed for being old and gross.

And I want to emphasize that it didn't have to be this way. Getting old is a fear for many people that goes beyond just not looking as good as you did when you were young. It's about weakness and yoru body breaking down on you and realizing your life is going to end soon and worrying about your legacy and so on,etc. It didn't have to just be about looks, it could have been framed as her giving up her life. But the guy whose using this as a weapon against her specifically goes in on how ugly her body will be once she's old and sadistically framing this as the worst thing that can happen to her, which is why her running through the timefall with the bomb is the ultimate sacrifice she can make - not because she's giving up her lifespan or youthful strength, but her attractiveness.

semi clarification here as having played the game --

the damage to her body is framed as about weakness, shortening her life, etc, not beauty. But specifically preserving her face was a thing about beauty and absolutely wouldnt have been done with a male character. (She comments frequently about her life being shortened, and nobody says anything about her body being ugly during the game.)

Mekanos · Nov 11, 2019

Devenir Ácrata said:
Just for curiosity, why if you know a game is problematic and made by a mysoginist you still buy it? Not trying to start a fight or something, just interested in the answer.

To me that's something really easy to boycott, but I know not everyone sees it like that.

I think this comes back to the bullet point in the OP:

"vote with your wallet" gee it's almost like this is an epidemic in gaming and finding games in the genre we like, with gameplay we like, a story we like, characters we like, and no bullshit designs anywhere to be found is a fucking sisyphean task. fucking great games have this problem. skyrim? dragon age origins? boob armour. boob armour everywhere. if we voted with our wallets we wouldn't be able to play fucking anything

While some games are more extreme than others, we all have our limits and we all weigh how much we can take vs. what the tradeoff is. I've enjoyed Kojima's games and I would probably enjoy Death Stranding but his constant issues are distressing and give me pause.

Oinone · Nov 11, 2019

Rhaknar said:

Yeah.
Whatever is complete there, her clothes aren't.

Billy Awesomo · Nov 11, 2019

RedHoodedOwl said:
Whip>>>>Mai

I disagree with this greatly (mainly because the cpu spams that one whip move in KOF 99 where she jumps in the air and comes back down on top of you while yelling. It's not terrible the first 20 times but when the cpu gets stuck just doing that well... then that gets about annoying as Athena spamming her Psycho ball over and over again. Traumatized by both of those moves lol) (If you're talking about how they are both dressed for combat then, I'd agree with you on that part (but personally I still like Mai (Play style) over Whip)).

RedHoodedOwl · Nov 11, 2019

Billy Awesomo said:
(If you're talking about how they are both dressed for combat then, I'd agree with you on that part (but personally I still like Mai (Play style) over Whip)).

Yes, I was mainly referring to her outfit.

Platy · Nov 11, 2019

Devenir Ácrata said:
Just for curiosity, why if you know a game is problematic and made by a mysoginist you still buy it? Not trying to start a fight or something, just interested in the answer.

To me that's something really easy to boycott, but I know not everyone sees it like that.

Just an addendum : microtransactions made boycott ridiculously more useless than they were, because for every 6 person not getting the 60 base game there is one whale buying the 60 game and spending 300 more on objectifying outfits

FallenGrace · Nov 11, 2019

Rhaknar said:

I still love the game but some of the designs are....

Deleted member 8583 · Nov 11, 2019

Platy said:
Just an addendum : microtransactions made boycott ridiculously more useless than they were, because for every 6 person not getting the 60 base game there is one whale buying the 60 game and spending 300 more on objectifying outfits

Well, boycotts to me are not only a means to protest, but an ethical stand. But yeah, when it comes to really popular things, this type of actions rarely have the desired effects. That is why I see them more as ethical stands.

Komii · Nov 11, 2019

Devenir Ácrata said:
Just for curiosity, why if you know a game is problematic and made by a mysoginist you still buy it? Not trying to start a fight or something, just interested in the answer.

To me that's something really easy to boycott, but I know not everyone sees it like that.

I see more value on buying positive games at launch then at boycotting famous games, if I don't buy it hundreds of people will, so as long as I don't buy at launch i guess im fine

You can also buy blindly and realize it was bad later, like persona 5, but as someone who wants to work/study game design, you sometimes don't have the luxury to choose... P5 had an amazing GUI and animations so buying it is iseful to study the gameflow, i believe death stranding could fall in the same category for asyncronical gameplay, Catherine sucks in a lot of ways, but the puzzle gameplay is interesting and should be study so i have to buy it on sales... you can also borrow them or buy used, there are ways of playing it and not endorsing bad business practices

Study isn't entertainment and sometimes you need to watch something bad to understand why it is bad... As long as I don't forget to buy the games that do it right i'm good...

I mean, choosing with your wallet isn't just making the demand for a sort of game go down, it's also making the demand for newer types of game go up, for every Catherine on sale you buy one celeste and one dandara at full price. You do better for the industry by not buying your indies on sales or buying then on sales and not pirating them, than by refusing to play a Kojima game.

Aexact · Nov 11, 2019

FallenGrace said:
I still love the game but some of the designs are....

I just hate the female party member outfits. As skimpy as she is, there was a decent spread among the NPCs otherwise. I mean, from what I expect from Ys. The granny had a nice twist.

Morrigan · Nov 11, 2019

Mekanos said:
I'm genuinely shocked [...] Kojima

Where have you been?

Mekanos · Nov 11, 2019

Morrigan said:
Where have you been?

My shock was more about other people letting Kojima do that! I can't put anything past the man that made us feel ashamed of our words and deeds.

Platy · Nov 11, 2019

Morrigan said:
Where have you been?

I am shocked I haven't heard anything about the mother with the invisible baby that looks like Lena Luthor, does that count?

Deleted member 4976 · Nov 11, 2019

Platy said:
I am shocked I haven't heard anything about the mother with the invisible baby that looks like Lena Luthor, does that count?

She's not a huge part of the game early on is probably why. I'm nearing the end of chapter 3 and I have yet to encounter her in person.

The main cast early on is Reedus and Lea Seydoux.

NoirSuede · Nov 11, 2019

Today I decided to play Fallout New Vegas as a female for the first time for NaNoWrimo RP purposes I swear,

man it just feels so weird when NPCs call me stuff like "missy" lol

RedHoodedOwl · Nov 11, 2019

NoirSuede said:
Today I decided to play Fallout New Vegas as a female for the first time for NaNoWrimo RP purposes I swear,

man it just feels so weird when NPCs call me stuff like "missy" lol

Are you planning to join the Legion in this playthrough?

AkiraAkira · Nov 11, 2019

NoirSuede said:
Today I decided to play Fallout New Vegas as a female for the first time for NaNoWrimo RP purposes I swear

This made me laugh. It's okay, dude - I won't judge you for wanting to play as a woman. You don't have to make excuses.

NoirSuede · Nov 11, 2019

RedHoodedOwl said:
Are you planning to join the Legion in this playthrough?

Nah, for this run I'm having her join the NCR (to mimic a plot point on my NaNoWrimo)

Boots said:
This made me laugh. It's okay, dude - I won't judge you for wanting to play as a woman. You don't have to make excuses.

It's just that I remember there was that one thread on ERA that asked on whether people played chars with opposite gender to them on games with character creation, and a lot of people there thought that playing as the opposite gender is weird (and to be honest so did I until I played a certain game that only had girl playable chars in it), especially bc of this implication (tho I did nip that one in the bud by disabling third person):

DragonKeeper · Nov 11, 2019

NoirSuede said:
Nah, for this run I'm having her join the NCR (to mimic a plot point on my NaNoWrimo)

It's just that I remember there was that one thread on ERA that asked on whether people played chars with opposite gender to them on games with character creation, and a lot of people there thought that playing as the opposite gender is weird (and to be honest so did I until I played a certain game that only had girl playable chars in it), especially bc of this implication (tho I did nip that one in the bud by disabling third person):

I always found it weird that people didn't regularly play as opposite sex characters. After all, the industry just assumed I was cool playing as a dude 99% of the time.

Pau · Nov 11, 2019

Turin said:
that bit about linking declining birth rates with lack of sexual harassment/assault particularly pissed me off

Do I even want to ask?

HK-47 · Nov 11, 2019

I don't get the hang up on playing the opposite sex.

Deleted member 4976 · Nov 11, 2019

I play as a woman in a bunch of games but I think Outer Worlds is one of the few titles I've played where the game actually makes a conscious effort to address that (first person videogames wise).

I feel like most of the time the dialogue and NPCs addressing you do it in such a vague, roundabout way that I forget whether I've picked a man or a woman hours into the game.

KujoJosuke · Nov 11, 2019

HK-47 said:
I don't get the hang up on playing the opposite sex.

When I had time and was still playing Bioware style RPGs, I would always do male good, female good, male evil, female evil runthroughs. Mass Effect, KotOR, etc. Just to try to see everything and because I liked the games.

I thought maybe I'd do it for Outer Worlds but 1 playthrough of that was enough.

Syril · Nov 11, 2019

I play as female characters almost all the time when it gives me the option, because that's 99% of the times I get to see female protagonists at all.

Pau said:
Do I even want to ask?

Death Stranding has a log where Kojima and his galaxy brain are under the impression that sexual abuse is motivated by sexual desire. It also has shit conflating emotional connections with sexual relationships and thinks that asexuality is a recent trend among young people and connects it with the end of the world.

AkiraAkira · Nov 11, 2019

I take it one step further and give silent protagonists in JRPGs (which are 95% all teenage boys) girl names. My roommate thinks it's weird, but if they're not going to let my supposed 'player-insert' be female then this is the best I can do to express myself.

timedesk · Nov 11, 2019

HK-47 said:
I don't get the hang up on playing the opposite sex.

I've always attributed it to a combination of gay panic and toxic masculinity. Playing games in the 90s and even the early 2000s there was a really prevalent "boys only" attitude to videogames. Even the marketing would play that garbage up. The only time it was really okay to play as a girl was in fighting games, and even those were justified with sexual objectification. I think it was for one of the old DOA games that had an actual television advertisement that had a guy say he liked playing Kasumi because "she kicks high"

Garbage like that helped spread the idea that anyone who played women characters was either a "sissy" or a pervert. I don't really think I noticed a change in attitude until voice acting became a bigger deal. Mass Effect was a big factor in my experience. Fem Shep had a really good voice actor, and it elevated the game, so a lot of my friends started to shift their perspective.

I have really appreciated the number of games that have committed to women leads. Life is Strange was not a perfect game, and I had a ton of problems with some of its plot points and depictions of serious issues, but it did a great job of encouraging the player to engage with its protagonist and her perspective.

Vincent Alexander · Nov 11, 2019

timedesk said:
I've always attributed it to a combination of gay panic and toxic masculinity. Playing games in the 90s and even the early 2000s there was a really prevalent "boys only" attitude to videogames. Even the marketing would play that garbage up. The only time it was really okay to play as a girl was in fighting games, and even those were justified with sexual objectification. I think it was for one of the old DOA games that had an actual television advertisement that had a guy say he liked playing Kasumi because "she kicks high"

Garbage like that helped spread the idea that anyone who played women characters was either a "sissy" or a pervert. I don't really think I noticed a change in attitude until voice acting became a bigger deal. Mass Effect was a big factor in my experience. Fem Shep had a really good voice actor, and it elevated the game, so a lot of my friends started to shift their perspective.

I have really appreciated the number of games that have committed to women leads. Life is Strange was not a perfect game, and I had a ton of problems with some of its plot points and depictions of serious issues, but it did a great job of encouraging the player to engage with its protagonist and her perspective.

Yeah. I just about always create characters of the opposite sex, and Mass Effect genuinely was a big part of why I started. I really can't think of many games prior that I would....but since Mass Effect? I almost exclusively do. I'm playing The Outer Worlds and The Surge 2 right now, and yep. Both opposite.

atomsk eater · Nov 11, 2019

HK-47 said:
I don't get the hang up on playing the opposite sex.

Even worse seeing someone chime in for support of playable female characters but their reasoning is "I don't wanna look at a guy's butt the whole game, hurrdurr." -_-

I think a partial problem is that there's so much media about and for men that if a man doesn't want to they never really have to try to empathize or identify with a lead character who doesn't share the same gender. I've seen a fair amount of "I can't connect with this character if they're not like me (regarding gender, race, sexuality etc) so I don't play games like this" reasoning, and it's taken me a while to understand because my only other option would be to basically not play games if it bothered me that much.

NoirSuede · Nov 11, 2019

timedesk said:
I have really appreciated the number of games that have committed to women leads. Life is Strange was not a perfect game, and I had a ton of problems with some of its plot points and depictions of serious issues, but it did a great job of encouraging the player to engage with its protagonist and her perspective.

Oh man have I got an entire genre of games that exclusively have female leads...

timedesk · Nov 11, 2019

Vincent Alexander said:
Yeah. I just about always create characters of the opposite sex, and Mass Effect genuinely was a big part of why I started. I really can't think of many games prior that I would....but since Mass Effect? I almost exclusively do. I'm playing The Outer Worlds and The Surge 2 right now, and yep. Both opposite.

It really is interesting how Mass Effect seems to be several people's tipping point. Other Bioware games had gender options and love interests, but it seems to usually be Jennifer Hale's performance that won so many people over. It might also have to do with the timing of platforms like youtube becoming big around that time as well. It might have helped expose people who never would have considered playing a woman.

NoirSuede · Nov 11, 2019

Found the thread:

https://www.resetera.com/threads/a-question-for-women-gaming-related.65639/

Now as an adult, I still like to play as my own gender because I think playing as the gender I'm not is ultra creepy (flaring this at the guys who play female characters... it's because of them we have the acronym of G.I.R.L, Guy In Real Life, and for their pervertedness of playing female characters that are eye candy). I now make the female character look as close as possible to me (dark hair, a mole, and glasses[if those are even available lol], my body type, etc).

HockeyBird · Nov 11, 2019

I can seem someone only choosing their specific gender if they are really the type of person that tries to put themselves into the game. So they pick their gender and try to make the character look as close to them as possible. I'm not that type of player. The character creators and dialogue choices are never detailed enough to make a satisfying me in a game so I look as myself as more of a director. I am creating a character to play a part in the specific confines of the game and then directing that character to affect the story in a way that is interesting to me. I tend to switch off between choosing a male or female from game to game.

AkiraAkira · Nov 11, 2019

It wasn't Mass Effect for me, but I remember getting KOTOR when I was 13 during summer vacation. It was the first RPG I played that allowed me the choice of picking my character's gender. It might sound sad now, but it blew my mind and I was so excited begin an epic journey as a character that actually 'fit' me. Consequently, this is also the game where I experienced my first encounter with the frustration of there being no same-sex romance options. I wanted to romance Bastila, but despite me trying my hardest with the dialogue options presented, it just wasn't possible. Later I found out that I had to play through the game as a guy instead, even though I wasn't inclined to beyond that single reason. Still, it was a huge thing for me that made me a big Bioware fan for many years. And when I finally did get to experience a same-sex romance in a video game with Jade Empire, I was ecstatic.

It wasn't until relatively recently that I realized I might be trans, which added more context as to why I was so enthused about playing games as a woman in the first place. At the time, my friends would ask why I always played as a girl when the option was there, and I'd use some dumb excuse like "I'd rather look at their ass than some ugly dude" because I thought they'd buy that and believe I'm just a perv. I knew that wasn't the real reason, but I couldn't really explain why I preferred to play as girls over boys, either. It just felt right.

Obviously, this isn't an example of someone choosing to play as the opposite gender (even though I thought so at the time), but the mention of Bioware brought these memories back. It's silly that there's still a stigma around this in some corners, though. Choosing an avatar that's the opposite gender could say little about someone or it could say a lot, but the idea that it's weird seems to stem from a lack of compassion and a pretty regimented view of how gender is supposed to be expressed.

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