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Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
...Literally nothing? Ann is in the exact same place as Shido and she is constantly inappropriately sexualized after the events of the arc... I am not saying Shido's scene will be a fanservice mess, just that the intent of adding it to this re-release is skeevy at best, which is what makes it likely malicious to me.

Yes, literally nothing about that arc suggests that Kamoshida's perception of literally any of his students is done for a sexy or a positive reason, but to show who he is. Ann was in a bikini in that same arc and the game explicitly tells you to be disgusted by this and the way that Kamoshida treats people. There was nothing sexy for the player in that arc as it was treated in a serious manner. I've played the game, I am a woman, and I have experience with sexual assault. So, please don't throw insults my way for daring to disagree with you in a thread specifically designed for women to discuss these characters, the arcs, and the context behind them.
 

Pandora012

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,499
Well guys at least we have SMT V to avoid this! Surely this won't have anything as gross as...

rsz_toki_smtiv_final.png


...we're fucked aren't we?
Don't put that evil on SMT V. I need to believe they won't pull that bullshit again. Let me dream please.
 

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,962
Spain
Yes, literally nothing about that arc suggests that Kamoshida's perception of literally any of his students is done for a sexy or a positive reason, but to show who he is. Ann was in a bikini in that same arc and the game explicitly tells you to be disgusted by this and the way that Kamoshida treats people.

This rings completely hollow when Persona 5 treats Ann like shit for the rest of the game, aside from the fact that she is shown in sexualized poses for the rest of the game that are clearly not supposed to establish her character at all, like her KO pose; there are even clearer examples like Ann's infiltration to Yusuke's house... After writing an arc about a girl fighting off against her and her friend's sexual abuser, having this same character be literally forced to undress and pose as a nude model should be circled and underlined with a red pen under a DO NOT DO THIS list. Ann is treated with none of the respect you imply in your post after Kamoshida's arc. Persona 5 is not just a game that says nothing, it is one that is constantly contradicting itself to have their cake and eat it.

Also, there is 0 need to make this personal. If you think adding Shiho to the re-release was an act of good faith that's fine. Just stating I don't believe so and it's highly unlikely.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Can we have Tadashi Satomi back as a writer for these? I'll take the dumb self-insert marrying a previous main character over what the writers do with P3/P4/P5 any day. At least with the former Satomi was smart enough to mock his own self-insert in the next game.
 
May 13, 2019
1,589
Can we have Tadashi Satomi back as a writer for these? I'll take the dumb self-insert marrying a previous main character over what the writers do with P3/P4/P5 any day. At least with the former Satomi was smart enough to mock his own self-insert in the next game.
Who says he did that willingly? I fully expect Atlus forced him to do so to placate the backlash.

To me, that's what happened and that's why he left. A reason as good as any.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
Also, there is 0 need to make this personal. If you think adding Shiho to the re-release was an act of good faith that's fine. Just stating I don't believe so and it's highly unlikely.

If it's fine for someone to think some way that is different than you, then it really doesn't show that when you call me delusional for doing just that. You can't pretend that there's no reason to make this personal when you're the one to start off on that angle. That's the part that I take issue with here, not people disagreeing with me. People are going to disagree as that's kind of the nature of the thread and the content surrounding it, but dismissing me as delusional like I have no idea what I'm talking about is frustrating and ignores why this thread had to be made separately in the first place.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
I did not do this. I am a strong believer of criticizing actions, not people, and I made sure to do it here too.

The thing is that Persona 5 doesn't take it's own themes seriously at all, and thinking her inclusion isn't partly, if not mostly for ¨lol tits¨ is delusional.

Whether you're saying "You are delusional" or "Your thinking is delusional" there is no difference there. You're not criticizing what I said when you write a post like this, but just throwing out an insult as if you truly understand the material and I don't. It's incredibly dismissive and insulting, and I don't really know how I can be clearer about this.
 

Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,292
I think the big shift will be when the population ages up and suddenly the bubble bursts and there are less people under 30 because they aren't having kids. Then who will be left to consume this material? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The weirdo perv shit increases because the dedicated otaku consumer likes it, but the average consumer is more and more turned away by it the more they put in. I don't know if JRPG fans will "rise up" so much as eventually the otaku market will be whittled down to next to nothing.
I can only hope that this is the future trend because I'm continuously surprised at how some companies can continue to survive primarily off the backs of their whales. I can't say I've done a deep dive of other anime communities but hand waving sexualization feels like it's been there skeeving the non-otaku away for a while now. It feels sufficiently self perpetuating that inertia won't fix it.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,365
As someone who is relentlessly cisplained whenever talking about Naoto, I can only react with a pained groan.

I think in the context of just P4, it was more understandable, if naive, to think the Naoto storyline was misinterpreted/lost in translation/whatever handwaves the problem, but P5, and later Catherine, paint a very clear picture of the issue.

At this point buying Atlus games feels like having to make a choice on how much homophobic, transphobic, sexualized content we are okay with. I definitely don't think SMTV will avoid it.
 
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Deleted member 2669

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,044
I think in the context of just P4, it was more understandable, if not naive, to think the Naoto storyline was misinterpreted/lost in translation/whatever handwaves the problem, but P5, and later Catherine, paint a very clear picture of the problem.

At this point buying Atlus games feels like having to make a choice on how much homophobic, transphobic, sexualized content we are okay with. I definitely don't think SMTV will avoid it.
It was understandable and naive way back, but there was always a problem of people not listening to complaints from queer folk. I'm glad more people these days are aware of what's going on with Atlus at large, but even today P4 is put on a pedestal and its queerphobia is handwaved.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,365
It was understandable and naive way back, but there was always a problem of people not listening to complaints from queer folk. I'm glad more people these days are aware of what's going on with Atlus at large, but even today P4 is put on a pedestal and its queerphobia is handwaved.

I'd go on a limb and say most of those people have not played P4 in 3+ years and do not remember how bad it actually is in that regard. Yosuke is an awful terrible no good character, Kanji's dungeon is a living nightmare... as a bi dude I always kinda looked the other way on that stuff thinking "haha Japan," but P5 and Catherine have only made the problem more obvious.
 

Deleted member 2669

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,044
I'd go on a limb and say most of those people have not played P4 in 3+ years and do not remember how bad it actually is in that regard. Yosuke is an awful terrible no good character, Kanji's dungeon is a living nightmare... as a bi dude I always kinda looked the other way on that stuff thinking "haha Japan," but P5 and Catherine have only made the problem more obvious.
I think that factors in for sure. P5 and Catherine are fresh on everyone's minds and only exacerbated the problem. But this should only encourage people to reexamine P4 rather than argue based on more distant fond memories.
 

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,962
Spain
Whether you're saying "You are delusional" or "Your thinking is delusional" there is no difference there. You're not criticizing what I said when you write a post like this, but just throwing out an insult as if you truly understand the material and I don't. It's incredibly dismissive and insulting, and I don't really know how I can be clearer about this.

I clearly stated in my original post and the posts after it how this reasoning is detached from reality and just based on whisful thinking; delusional.

I believe thinking spring is better than autumn is dumb. I also do not believe if you think that you are dumb.

I don't really know how can I be more clear about this too.
 

Foot

Member
Mar 10, 2019
10,999
I clearly stated in my original post and the posts after it how this reasoning is detached from reality and just based on whisful thinking; delusional.

I believe thinking spring is better than autumn is dumb. I also do not believe if you think that you are dumb.

I don't really know how can I be more clear about this too.
DUDE.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
I clearly stated in my original post and the posts after it how this reasoning is detached from reality and just based on whisful thinking; delusional.

I believe thinking spring is better than autumn is dumb. I also do not believe if you think that you are dumb.

I don't really know how can I be more clear about this too.

So, let's break this down briefly. I wrote a couple of posts talking about the issues surrounding Kamoshida's palace, how they're tackled, and how I don't believe that Shiho being included in the palace in this outfit on it's own is necessarily meant to be sexy for the player. You come into the thread and tell me that my way of thinking is delusional, and when I tell you that's dismissive and insulting, you double and triple down on it to the point that you compare it to liking a season of the year.

There are many reasons that this is dismissive, and we can start with the fact that you're using the word delusional. The word delusional is strong because you're using it to mean that I'm detached from reality and that I am objectively wrong. You chose to use this word multiple times in a thread that is explicitly about women criticizing these sexualized designs, and the reason that this thread has to exist in the first place is largely because men are constantly talking over us or dismissing us as if they understand these issues better than us. To add on to this, you have in the past, been dismissive towards transphobia, racism, and literal references to real life gang rapes in games as long as they're used in jokes. But a game taking the time to try and tackle this subject in a serious manner is more of a sin to you than any of those previous issues.

I bring this up specifically because I am tired of being talked over and down to by people who are not actually affected by these issues. I have had to constantly deal with cis people telling me that issues that affect me and other trans people aren't a big deal, doesn't count as transphobia, or that we're making a mountain out of a molehill. And I've constantly had to deal with men doing the same when I speak up on women's issues, or sexual assault. It's frustrating as hell to see you continue to talk down to me and pretend that you truly understand this topic better than the people involved and the way that you continually double down on how you can't possibly be insulting or dismissive.

You are being clear about just how little it matters to you how the people you talk at are impacted by the things that you say, but your lack of empathy and perspective of this are what I'm struggling to make clear to you. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. I don't care if people disagree with me on some of this stuff but just stop being so dismissive at every turn on this
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Imagine if the Persona series was directed and written by queer non-men. That would be a swell timeline, instead of this fuckery.

Yeah but then how'd they be able to sell sexualized images of 16-year olds? /s

I really wished we'd have another setting similar to Persona 2: Eternal Punishment, which had a woman main character who was in her 20s with a 9-5 job. Then again, Persona has stopped being about anything other than another bog-standard harem game more interested in having waifus head-over-heels of a carbord cutout then over any actual messages.
 
May 13, 2019
1,589
About Persona 5, allow me to mention once again that Ann isn't wearing her phantom thief outfit by her volition simply because the director thought it'd be "cute" if she was embarrassed by it.

Yeah but then how'd they be able to sell sexualized images of 16-year olds? /s

I really wished we'd have another setting similar to Persona 2: Eternal Punishment, which had a woman main character who was in her 20s with a 9-5 job. Then again, Persona has stopped being about anything other than another bog-standard harem game more interested in having waifus head-over-heels of a carbord cutout then over any actual messages.
That was the worst selling Persona game to date. It's understandable that Atlus isn't willing to go on that direction anymore.
 

Shudouken

Member
Jun 19, 2019
793
Whats even worse is you apparently fight her (unlike Anne in the original who isn't in the fight) and she is weak to physical attacks (this is coming from the impressions thread).

God damn Atlus is trash, there should be a thread about this
They probably wanted to make the boss fights more challenging (or slightly different at least), and that is the first best thing that came to their mind.
I also saw an image of Okumura's palace and he has a shadow Haru in there or something.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,365
They probably wanted to make the boss fights more challenging (or slightly different at least), and that is the first best thing that came to their mind.
I also saw an image of Okumura's palace and he has a shadow Haru in there or something.

If that was the case they could just have the cognition Ann fight.
 
May 13, 2019
1,589
They probably wanted to make the boss fights more challenging (or slightly different at least), and that is the first best thing that came to their mind.
I also saw an image of Okumura's palace and he has a shadow Haru in there or something.
In a previous trailer featuring Kamoshida's fight also showed that:

He is able to summon a shackled cognitive Mishima to aid him in battle.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
I just realized, right now Tekken 7's female roster has this funny trend where their sexualization is inversely proportional to their high-level viability,
For example Eliza who's your average titty slut vampire is the worst female in the game right now, while Kazumi who's never seen wearing anything other than her traditional kimono has only eaten nerfs ever since the game came out and won 2 EVOs this year alone
Mama Mishima is such a cool character. Definitely one of the best new comers in the series. They need to add more characters like her.
Yeah but then how'd they be able to sell sexualized images of 16-year olds? /s

I really wished we'd have another setting similar to Persona 2: Eternal Punishment, which had a woman main character who was in her 20s with a 9-5 job. Then again, Persona has stopped being about anything other than another bog-standard harem game more interested in having waifus head-over-heels of a carbord cutout then over any actual messages.
I always thought a Persona game critical of the work culture in Japan could work.
It would lend itself well to the current formula if they don't want to change much.

Hopefully if that happens that they get better writers (hell they need better writers in general with a less focus on the whole "otaku/weeaboo bullshit".)
 

Tizoc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,792
Oman
So in Trine 4, Zoya is finally given pants, and I honestly just assumed they gave her an updated clothing, much like Amadeus (I like both their new outfits). Funnily enough, in one of the later stages, the other 2 bring up her outfit-
01D6DB6D1F0FED2698D225D5921E79EB87A3A0E1
 

Deleted member 2669

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,044
That was the worst selling Persona game to date. It's understandable that Atlus isn't willing to go on that direction anymore.
That would mean clinging to sales data from two decades ago, as well as assuming the adult cast was a major factor in its low sales. Mind you that P1 was only outsold by P5.

Mama Mishima is such a cool character. Definitely one of the best new comers in the series. They need to add more characters like her.
She is seriously awesome and so is Devil Kazumi.

CxTPTuP.png
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,365
I would happily take a college Persona game because the dynamic would essentially be the same but they stop forcing sexualized teenage girls onto us.
 
May 13, 2019
1,589
I would happily take a college Persona game because the dynamic would essentially be the same but they stop forcing sexualized teenage girls onto us.
I would happily take a college Persona game because the dynamic would essentially be the same but they stop forcing sexualized teenage girls onto us.
Doesn't Japanese society see colleges/universities as nothing but glorified stepping stones before they slave away as part of the work force? That's the explanation I got about why those settings are a relative rare sight in anime/manga.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,365
Doesn't Japanese society see colleges/universities as nothing but glorified stepping stones before they slave away as part of the work force? That's the explanation I got about why those settings are a relative rare sight in anime/manga.

Yes. High school is perceived as the last time Japanese kids get to be "free," so to speak. I expect them to stick to the high school setting until kingdom come, it's just wishful thinking on my part.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Doesn't Japanese society see colleges/universities as nothing but glorified stepping stones before they slave away as part of the work force? That's the explanation I got about why those settings are a relative rare sight in anime/manga.
The whole work slave part could fit perfectly with the current formula.

Make it so you are a salary man/woman and you need to go to work. Then after work you would be free to go all over town like you do in the other games and you do social links and all that. Then you get a persona and you do persona stuff with the main theme being how much work culture in Japan sucks. Add some more adult themes to the game and better characters that are older and non sexualized. Better LGBT representation etc. Also they need to let you date LGBT people and without creepy social link like dating a school boy/girl.

As for the whole special events like school trips and all that, they can just make it so you go on a vacation with your crew (or like in P3P where the girl MC could go to inaba alone on a vacation).

It could work well if Atlus stop being assholes and get better writers.
 

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,332
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
Atlus is never going to change unless there are major shakeups in the company. We can't count on Sega to make them change, look at the their RPG output. 😐 Though from what I've seen, the Yakuza series can be vastly more progressive than anything in Atlus' games.
 

Gilver

Banned
Nov 14, 2018
3,725
Costa Rica
Yes. High school is perceived as the last time Japanese kids get to be "free," so to speak. I expect them to stick to the high school setting until kingdom come, it's just wishful thinking on my part.
The best time of your life in Japan is highschool, thats sad but the evidence shows its true if the suicide rate and average work hours are anything to go by.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
So good(?) news! Apparently that Shadow Shiho is waaaaaaay worse than we thought!

Not only is she there, you apparently fight her and she has a weakness to physical damage. What. The. Fuck.
 

atomsk eater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,832
Seeing people defend the bunny Shiho inclusion by saying it establishes how scummy Kamoshida is upsets me. I felt more than sufficiently sure of his status as an evil bastard and thus psyched up to take him down the first time without having to also batter a sexualized version of one of his main victims. I just can't see what that adds.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,365
I said this earlier regarding Tales but at a certain point playing modern JRPGs just feels like an exercise of how much otaku pandering you find acceptable. It will get worse before it gets better.
 
Seeing people defend the bunny Shiho inclusion by saying it establishes how scummy Kamoshida is upsets me. I felt more than sufficiently sure of his status as an evil bastard and thus psyched up to take him down the first time without having to also batter a sexualized version of one of his main victims. I just can't see what that adds.
If it not them pandering to Otaku fetishing characters it blindly adding ideas without knowing how much of a problem they can be. Like Xaszatm wrote, having the shadow Shiho weak to physical hammers in too bluntly what the character went through when we already have enough to go with from the past scene with her.
 

NoName999

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,906
Seeing people defend the bunny Shiho inclusion by saying it establishes how scummy Kamoshida is upsets me. I felt more than sufficiently sure of his status as an evil bastard and thus psyched up to take him down the first time without having to also batter a sexualized version of one of his main victims. I just can't see what that adds.

Apparently the average gamer is too stupid to realize that a teacher who molests an underage student is a scumbag and the message needs to be as subtle as a kick in the balls.

The sad part is that I'm only half joking
 

celigio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
703
Monteranch
So good(?) news! Apparently that Shadow Shiho is waaaaaaay worse than we thought!

Not only is she there, you apparently fight her and she has a weakness to physical damage. What. The. Fuck.

Fun fact: Mishima also appears in the fight but you can't target him...

Why?

Like I don't have an issue with Shiho appearing in the fight, but all those little things just leave a bad taste in my mouth
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
I said this earlier regarding Tales but at a certain point playing modern JRPGs just feels like an exercise of how much otaku pandering you find acceptable. It will get worse before it gets better.

I'm honestly feeling pretty burned by the genre. It feels like almost every JRPG I have played in the last few years has leaned heavily into pretty cheap fanservice, and inconsistent writing for its women cast members. It has reached a point that I just don't want to have to sit and endure that for sixty or so hours they last.

JRPGs used to be my favorite types of games, but I haven't really enjoyed one for a long time. What annoys me is that there are Japanese games that seem to be moving in the right direction. RE2 Remake actually gave a lot of personality and even some pathos to it's female cast. Hell, even Revelations 2 way back in 2015 had a lot of strong women characters. I'm sorry to ramble, but it's just really hard to be positive with all this gross P5R news coming out.
 
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