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Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

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RazzMahTazz1319

RazzMahTazz1319

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Oct 30, 2017
708
BY2K

BY2K

Membero Americo
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,682
Québec, Canada
Do I need to say anything

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Morrigan

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
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Oct 24, 2017
34,317
Saucycarpdog said:
On the topic of fridging, I disagree with the counter argument that developing the woman makes it okay. You still have the problem of a woman's death being used to advance the protagonist story. It's such an old trope that's lazy and overused. That doesn't mean you can never kill off a women. Just don't use her death as a plot device.

That counter argument also just leads to people using semantics to defend the trope. "Oh she wasn't fridged cause she kinda sorta had some development."

Honestly reminds me of when people used to defend the damsel in distress trope. "She wasn't a damsel cause that implies she was completely helpless but look she tried to fight back."
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But then when is killing off a female character ever OK to you? "Death as plot device" is... a normal thing and not necessarily bad.

Fridging is specifically when a woman is killed/victimized purely in order to motivate a man. It's not "fridging" if it's to motivate a woman by definition (doesn't mean you can't think it's poorly written or whatever, but it's by definition not fridging, for a same-sex couple it'd be "bury your gays" more than anything else), and it's not fridging if the woman's death has consequences beyond just motivating a man. I would even exclude deaths that are not "victimizations" there, such as a woman sacrificing herself or dying to protect a loved one etc. The original trope was called that because of the gruesome imagery of a victimized woman stuffed in a fridge in order to shock the reader and motivate the male hero. This trope is bad when overused because of how women are portrayed as brutalized victims and footnotes:
Women in Refrigerators is a site by comic book writer Gail Simone, created in March 1999, to list super-heroines who have been "either de-powered, raped, or cut up and stuck in the refrigerator" in an effort to illustrate that female superheroes are disproportionately likely to be brutalized in comic books, usually to further the character arc of male super heroes.
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In other words, I don't agree that "a woman's death being used to advance the protagonist story" is necessarily fridging and/or problematic. Alys's death in Phantasy Star IV could be described as that, and it was anything but. Her death was heroic, she was a mentor figure to the protagonist and basically did the equivalent of taking a bullet for him.
 
crienne

crienne

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Oct 25, 2017
5,169
Not sure if y'all saw the Rock, Paper, Shotgun review for Code Vein, but I admire the sexist callout in the opening paragraph.

Code Vein is a sexist action RPG about post-apocalyptic vampires that borrows liberally from Dark Souls, while speeding up and complicating its combat in ways that I really like. The plot's a bit rubbish.
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Further reading edit:
Oh lord:
This shit can jump straight in the same bin as all those ads you used to see for terrible browser-based strategy games. Even so, I still probably wouldn't have chosen 'sexist' as my first descriptor of the game, if not for the cutscene shown in this screenshot.
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jpg

Titillation is one thing, but having one of the main heroes allude to the three women in non-combat support roles as animal followers that it's his manly duty to take care of, is quite another. He isn't called on this, to be clear. The women smile and nod, meekly. It's embarrassing, and it's hard to take it at anything other than face value in a game where a central female character mysteriously never gets the tattered remains of her top fixed.
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Calvinien

Banned
Jul 13, 2019
2,970
RazzMahTazz1319 said:
Yes! Thank you!



That's one of my favorite games! How could I forget this! Haha.

But yeh putting conflict about gender and races is their thematic pillars. Isn't Andraste the world building reason why women are soldiers? She was the Joan of Arc like figure in that.
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One of them. As leliana points out in one of her stories, sexism DID exist in thedas. Women used to be prohibited form being Chevalier, for instance. And since only women can be divine, there exists a certain matriarchal bias in spiritual matters. But thedosians are far to busy being racist and magophobic to care about gender these days. Hell, gay marriage is even legal.

The closest thing to modern day sexism I can think of in the games comes from Aveline constantly trying to slut shame Isabela, and Isabela calling Aveline mannish. But that seems more like them trying to get a rise out of each other considering they keep it up eve after becoming friends.

Merrill is also highly interested in sexual matters and is openly bi but nobody ever attacks her for that. And Cassandra is even more tomboyish than Aveline and nobody says anything about that so I don't think it's a major systemic issue.
 
Foot

Foot

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Mar 10, 2019
10,851
Joe2187 said:
What game even is this?
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Atelier Ryza.

I am really bothered by this game. The series used to be explicitly For Girls, where yes, everyone was pretty, but not treated like objects. Like Sailor Moon! Now they've got press releases about how the character designer concentrated really hard on the lead character's thighs, before revealing the off-puttingly fetishized balloons-stuffed-into-socks official art. And now this new all around horribly designed character.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Calvinien said:
I can think of literally only one character who acts like that and he's from a society with crazy rigid gender roles.
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There's also Fergus' wife in Dragon Age Origins Noble Origin but I think it's mentioned that in Antiva, where she's from, women don't really fight (or at least, as they put it "only with words and poison")

And techinically women in the Qun can fight, they just then get refered to as men. So when the Qun decides what your job is, that's also them deciding what your gender is. No choice under the Qun.
 
Dary

Dary

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Oct 27, 2017
8,408
The English Wilderness
Kain-Nosgoth said:
EFWS1D1VAAAI6XA.jpg


looks so painful
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So, what are the odds the character on the left is gonna be the target of countless "flat chest" gags???
Foot said:
Atelier Ryza.

I am really bothered by this game. The series used to be explicitly For Girls, where yes, everyone was pretty, but not treated like objects. Like Sailor Moon! Now they've got press releases about how the character designer concentrated really hard on the lead character's thighs, before revealing the off-puttingly fetishized balloons-stuffed-into-socks official art. And now this new all around horribly designed character.
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Capitalism, ho!
 
Morrigan

Morrigan

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Foot said:
Atelier Ryza.

I am really bothered by this game. The series used to be explicitly For Girls, where yes, everyone was pretty, but not treated like objects. Like Sailor Moon! Now they've got press releases about how the character designer concentrated really hard on the lead character's thighs, before revealing the off-puttingly fetishized balloons-stuffed-into-socks official art. And now this new all around horribly designed character.
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Oh man, that's even more disappointing. If that was a character from some Senran Kagura like game I'd just roll my eyes, but if it's in a franchise that used to be aimed at girls and they're instead pandering to dudes who fetishized them.... that's icky
 
Joe2187

Joe2187

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Oct 25, 2017
3,521
Foot said:
Atelier Ryza.

I am really bothered by this game. The series used to be explicitly For Girls, where yes, everyone was pretty, but not treated like objects. Like Sailor Moon! Now they've got press releases about how the character designer concentrated really hard on the lead character's thighs, before revealing the off-puttingly fetishized balloons-stuffed-into-socks official art. And now this new all around horribly designed character.
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That was my understanding as well...and what I assumed the game was. I was confused...the art style of the game reminded me of the Atealier games....but that character design/clothes sticks out like a sore thumb.

And the thumbnail of the video I saw of the game litterally starts off with the main characters thighs as the first shot....it's weird.
 
Tfritz

Tfritz

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Oct 25, 2017
13,258
Foot said:
Atelier Ryza.

I am really bothered by this game. The series used to be explicitly For Girls, where yes, everyone was pretty, but not treated like objects. Like Sailor Moon! Now they've got press releases about how the character designer concentrated really hard on the lead character's thighs, before revealing the off-puttingly fetishized balloons-stuffed-into-socks official art. And now this new all around horribly designed character.
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of all the trends in modern japanese rpg character design, this shit is easily the most off putting. like it legit makes me nauseated to see.
 
Xaszatm

Xaszatm

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Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Foot said:
Atelier Ryza.

I am really bothered by this game. The series used to be explicitly For Girls, where yes, everyone was pretty, but not treated like objects. Like Sailor Moon! Now they've got press releases about how the character designer concentrated really hard on the lead character's thighs, before revealing the off-puttingly fetishized balloons-stuffed-into-socks official art. And now this new all around horribly designed character.
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This is the really disappointing thing. This just makes it less and less likely for women and girls to join gaming when even franchises that are supposed to be for them are just co-opted by men to the point where they will throw the women and then act all indignant when this is pointed out.
 
Aexact

Aexact

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Oct 30, 2017
3,255
Foot said:
Atelier Ryza.

I am really bothered by this game. The series used to be explicitly For Girls, where yes, everyone was pretty, but not treated like objects. Like Sailor Moon! Now they've got press releases about how the character designer concentrated really hard on the lead character's thighs, before revealing the off-puttingly fetishized balloons-stuffed-into-socks official art. And now this new all around horribly designed character.
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Man I don't think I've played the Atelier games far back enough to when they were targeted at girls and I started with Iris (2004). As I understand, Iris was deliberately a change to the series featuring a male protagonist but the other games I've played read as either neutral or male targeted to me. Feels like that's been the state of things for a while now.
 
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Foot

Foot

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Mar 10, 2019
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Aexact said:
Man I don't think I've played the Atelier games far back enough to when they were targeted at girls and I started with Iris (2004). As I understand, Iris was deliberately a change to the series featuring a male protagonist but the other games I've played read as either neutral or male targeted to me. Feels like that's been the state of things for a while now.
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Really? I'd say Ayesha is absolutely an otome. What disqualifies it for you?
Dary said:
Personally, I want to slide over to the parallel universe where Sailor Moon, not Dragon Ball, gets modern video game spin-offs.
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That was my wish in the thread about what game you'd like to get the AAA treatment!
 
Aexact

Aexact

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Oct 30, 2017
3,255
Foot said:
Really? I'd say Ayesha is absolutely an otome. What disqualifies it for you?
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Mmm I guess DLC swimsuits?

Though yeah, I got back into Atelier because I was told the Dusk series cut back on the fanservice and Ayesha was a pleasant experience so I'll concede that point. The Ayesha pre release OT seemed more jazzed about the little witch girl's animations so that might've colored my impressions too. I don't play otome games so can't say I know what that vibe is but I don't really get a romantic tone to the interactions. Not even in a wink wink shipping tease.

Oh actually I recall a couple events now. It seemed like typical anime game stuff though, like a Tales of skit.

Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is that I appreciate that Ayesha cut back on the usual side eye that comes with niche anime games, it's sandwiched between Arland, the more fanservice heavy trilogy, and Mysterious, with its outfits and CGs. The other games in Ayesha's trilogy, Eschalogy and Shallie, trend more toward that direction too. The limited edition of Nelke came with a body pillow and Lulua is a sequel to Arland and Ryza is Ryza.

There's not much quite like Atelier, with its small scale conflicts and non-romantic goal oriented female protagonists and I'm glad it exists but the series has felt like it was male oriented for a while now and for the foreseeable future. Ayesha was an outlier.
 
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Syril

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Oct 26, 2017
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Is Atelier the same series where they had a recurring character magically de-aged into a child when she would have been over 40 by the time the next game took place?
 
RpgN

RpgN

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Oct 25, 2017
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Syril said:
Is Atelier the same series where they had a recurring character magically de-aged into a child when she would have been over 40 by the time the next game took place?
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Not sure about the age by they did indeed de-age Rorona.

I've played Atelier Rorona and have all of them bar the last one on the vita (edit: or rather, I bought the games that were released on the vita except the last one. I don't follow or own the newer games)

Before I would say they were acceptable. Tame enough to still want to play most of them at least. But this? Yeah. Nope. Get lost. The body of that black dressed female character looks monstrous more than anything. I can't understand how that would look appealing to anyone. It's become more of a parody at this point.
 
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Dice

Dice

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Oct 25, 2017
22,240
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Syril said:
Is Atelier the same series where they had a recurring character magically de-aged into a child when she would have been over 40 by the time the next game took place?
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She gets "healed" (but yeah, it was an excuse to have loli-Rorona)
Problem is uh... Kishida Mel's 35 (v) year olds are indistinguishable from his 15 year olds. :P

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At least her tits are normal.
lol wtf is this

EFWS1D1VAAAI6XA.jpg
 
Rhaknar

Rhaknar

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Oct 26, 2017
42,490
thats the Atelier game where the main character is using her younger sister's clothes right?

edit: yup sure is lol

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Good lord, those shorts arent your size lady!
 
Shining Star

Shining Star

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May 14, 2019
4,458
I am torn on Ryza because I love Atelier and the game looks good but that one girl's design is so out of place. In Escha they tried to get male players by adding Logy but I guess it didn't work and now they're trying for a different audience. It was really nice to have an RPG series aimed at girls and I hope they're not abandoning that. Lulua didn't have these problems and it just came out!
 
Joe2187

Joe2187

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Oct 25, 2017
3,521
Shining Star said:
I am torn on Ryza because I love Atelier and the game looks good but that one girl's design is so out of place. In Escha they tried to get male players by adding Logy but I guess it didn't work and now they're trying for a different audience. It was really nice to have an RPG series aimed at girls and I hope they're not abandoning that. Lulua didn't have these problems and it just came out!
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Xaszatm

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Dary said:
The sad thing is that it will only get worse.
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Oh, and if they ever go back, you'll get a bunch of "true fans" screaming about SJWs because gaming is apparently going straight into softcore porn and anything less is "not true gaming".

Why yes I AM bitter about how many of my favorite franchises are being ruined while a bunch of pervs scream how they are the true fans when all they really want is more images to masturbate to.
 
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