Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

Mekanos · Sep 16, 2019

"an action game about a girl that punches robots"
awesome!
*trailer plays*
fuck go back

Lumi said:
What is it with otaku and military fetishism, on top of otaku media turning historical people and military weapons into anime girls?

Nationalism, no matter what country, is at its core about insecure and isolated people who desperately want some sort of identity and calling in order to feel purposeful, even at the expense of other nations and identities. And who's more insecure and isolated than otaku? Same reason for why western gamers, nerds, etc. fall prey to the alt right.

Tizoc said:
Gundam may have had an (unintentional?) Role in that.
Incidentally enough, american war and militarism in video games had a big impact on video games for a decade now.

Gundam is... complicated. It's pretty clear in the original 79 anime, Zeon are Space Nazis. Tomino makes no bones about it. It was his way of telling Japan "we lost World War II, get the fuck over it." They literally namedrop Hitler. But Zeon was so cool and exciting and dammit they wanted independence even if it meant gassing colonies and blowing up Australia (okay, they didn't intend to blow up Australia, but still). It's become so cool to side with Zeon that Gundam fanboys become writers and rewrite them to be more sympathetic in future shows and material.

SolidSnakex · Sep 16, 2019

RedSwirl said:
My theory is that military stuff is a fantasy for Japanese otaku -- it might be to them what swords and magic are to us. Militarism and gun violence aren't as prevalent in their everyday lives -- to most Japanese people, being able to fire a gun is probably some unattainable fantasy.

Doesn't a lot of it have to do with how Japan actively sanitizes its war atrocities? This goes down right to the school system. Here's a story of how a Japanese's woman didn't understand Japan's role in war until she moved to Australia because of just how little is taught in school about it

When we did finally get there, it turned out only 19 of the book's 357 pages dealt with events between 1931 and 1945.

There was one page on what is known as the Mukden incident, when Japanese soldiers blew up a railway in Manchuria in China in 1931.

There was one page on other events leading up to the Sino-Japanese war in 1937 - including one line, in a footnote, about the massacre that took place when Japanese forces invaded Nanjing - the Nanjing Massacre, or Rape of Nanjing.

There was another sentence on the Koreans and the Chinese who were brought to Japan as miners during the war, and one line, again in a footnote, on "comfort women" - a prostitution corps created by the Imperial Army of Japan.

There was also just one sentence on the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I asked the children of some friends and colleagues how much history they had picked up during their school years.

Twenty-year-old university student Nami Yoshida and her older sister Mai - both undergraduates studying science - say they haven't heard about comfort women.

"I've heard of the Nanjing massacre but I don't know what it's about," they both say.

"At school, we learn more about what happened a long time ago, like the samurai era," Nami adds.

Seventeen-year-old Yuki Tsukamoto says the "Mukden incident" and Japan's invasion of the Korean peninsula in the late 16th Century help to explain Japan's unpopularity in the region.

"I think it is understandable that some people are upset, because no-one wants their own country to be invaded," he says.

But he too is unaware of the plight of the comfort women.

Former history teacher and scholar Tamaki Matsuoka holds Japan's education system responsible for a number of the country's foreign relations difficulties.

"Our system has been creating young people who get annoyed by all the complaints that China and South Korea make about war atrocities because they are not taught what they are complaining about," she said.

"It is very dangerous because some of them may resort to the internet to get more information and then they start believing the nationalists' views that Japan did nothing wrong."

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21226068

Delphine · Sep 16, 2019

High heels actually have a very masculine history. I remember that King Louis the 15th was famous for wearing high heels, and in general, they were a signifier of high nobility, virility and status, and were a man's clothing. Until they were adopted by women, because women always sought to adopt masculine clothing in an effort to masculinize themselves, and when it became widespread, men decided that wearing high heels wasn't hip anymore since the females were doing it as well.

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/heels-history-men

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21151350

Always funny to me how, as soon as women adopted their clothing style, men were like "nope, I'm out bye". Talk about fragility.

Sander VF · Sep 16, 2019

Mekanos said:
Gundam is... complicated. It's pretty clear in the original 79 anime, Zeon are Space Nazis. Tomino makes no bones about it. It was his way of telling Japan "we lost World War II, get the fuck over it." They literally namedrop Hitler. But Zeon was so cool and exciting and dammit they wanted independence even if it meant gassing colonies and blowing up Australia (okay, they didn't intend to blow up Australia, but still). It's become so cool to side with Zeon that Gundam fanboys become writers and rewrite them to be more sympathetic in future shows and material.

The sheer volume of Zeke wankery in the UC Gundam media produced since the end of the century is kinda amusing.

Also "yeah, but one autonomous branch of the Feddies was just as bad so the Federeation is just as bad as Zeon". Like, the war crime tally in the One Year War is very much slanted in the favor of Zeon.

Mekanos · Sep 16, 2019

Sander VF said:
The sheer volume of Zeke wankery in the UC Gundam media produced since the end of the century is kinda amusing.

Also "yeah, but one autonomous branch of the Feddies was just as bad so the Federeation is just as bad as Zeon". Like, the war crime tally in the One Year War is very much slanted in the favor of Zeon.

I think the excuse is that the Zabis were bad but Zeon was actually good.

Y'know, like Haman Karn, a very diplomatic, reasonable individual. She sure led Zeon to greatness!

HK-47 · Sep 16, 2019

SolidSnakex said:
Doesn't a lot of it have to do with how Japan actively sanitizes its war atrocities? This goes down right to the school system. Here's a story of how a Japanese's woman didn't understand Japan's role in war until she moved to Australia because of just how little is taught in school about it

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21226068

Sounds similar to American schools and all our foreign escapades in the past 60 years.

Deleted member 2669 · Sep 16, 2019

Delphine said:
High heels actually have a very masculine history. I remember that King Louis the 15th was famous for wearing high heels, and in general, they were a signifier of high nobility and status, and were a man's clothing. Until they were adopted by women, because women always sought to adopt masculine clothing in an effort to masculinize themselves, and when it became widespread, men decided that wearing high heels wasn't hip anymore since the females were doing it as well.

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/heels-history-men

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21151350

Always funny to me how, as soon as women adopted their clothing style, men were like "nope, I'm out bye". Talk about fragility.

Wikipedia needs a list page about everything men eventually distanced themselves from because they became too adjacent to femininity. It would be endless.

Now I'm reminded of the time men in England were harassed for using umbrellas before people used them pervasively.

Metalsnakezero · Sep 16, 2019

Joe2187 said:
Alternate History Japan sure is different

Every step of this just a bad mix of tones and given it creator it going to have some hidden elements that will make it worst.

Platy · Sep 16, 2019

Lumi said:
Wikipedia needs a list page about everything men eventually distanced themselves from because they became too adjacent to femininity. It would be endless.

Now I'm reminded of the time men in England were harassed for using umbrellas before people used them pervasively.

Don't forget the opposite, where men take something women used and make it more prestigious

like Beatles, Star Trek or Computer Coding

Jaded Photographer · Sep 16, 2019

Mekanos said:
I think the excuse is that the Zabis were bad but Zeon was actually good.

Y'know, like Haman Karn, a very diplomatic, reasonable individual. She sure led Zeon to greatness!

Say what you will about Gundam, but when they do a female villain, she's a good villain. Haman Karn and Katejina Loos are great.

RedHoodedOwl · Sep 16, 2019

Jaded Photographer said:
Say what you will about Gundam, but when they do a female villain, she's a good villain. Haman Karn and Katejina Loos are great.

Origin portrayed Gihren and Kycilia as evil incarnate while Dozle, Garma, and even Degwin as reasonable and rational characters.

Jaded Photographer · Sep 16, 2019

RedHoodedOwl said:
Origin portrayed Gihren and Kycilia as evil incarnate while Dozle, Garma, and even Degwin as reasonable and rational characters.

I haven't seen 0079 in a bit, but Gihren and Kycilia are actually the evil Zabi's. Garma's not even villainous, he's just in the villain family, Dozle is decentish...though he's the one making sure the Zaku program got started and working. I can never remember Degwins full deal though.

RedSwirl · Sep 16, 2019

Mekanos said:
Gundam is... complicated. It's pretty clear in the original 79 anime, Zeon are Space Nazis. Tomino makes no bones about it. It was his way of telling Japan "we lost World War II, get the fuck over it." They literally namedrop Hitler. But Zeon was so cool and exciting and dammit they wanted independence even if it meant gassing colonies and blowing up Australia (okay, they didn't intend to blow up Australia, but still). It's become so cool to side with Zeon that Gundam fanboys become writers and rewrite them to be more sympathetic in future shows and material.

Sander VF said:
The sheer volume of Zeke wankery in the UC Gundam media produced since the end of the century is kinda amusing.

Also "yeah, but one autonomous branch of the Feddies was just as bad so the Federeation is just as bad as Zeon". Like, the war crime tally in the One Year War is very much slanted in the favor of Zeon.

Mekanos said:
I think the excuse is that the Zabis were bad but Zeon was actually good.

Y'know, like Haman Karn, a very diplomatic, reasonable individual. She sure led Zeon to greatness!

Even in the original 79 series, some characters like Bright seem to acknowledge lines between the Zabis and ordinary people who live in Zeon, calling the whole thing "a Zabi dictatorship". Later shows paint the Federation government as a bunch of capitist assholes. Eventually Gundam does get quite grey if you look at all the big organizations and contrast them with all the regular folks on the ground, on all sides.

RedHoodedOwl said:
Origin portrayed Gihren and Kycilia as evil incarnate while Dozle, Garma, and even Degwin as reasonable and rational characters.

Jaded Photographer said:
I haven't seen 0079 in a bit, but Gihren and Kycilia are actually the evil Zabi's. Garma's not even villainous, he's just in the villain family, Dozle is decentish...though he's the one making sure the Zaku program got started and working. I can never remember Degwins full deal though.

Dozle starts out reasonable but degrades due to the initial Zeon civil conflicts and the colony drop. Degwin's deal was he just wanted to keep Zeon as his own little fiefdom, his kids wanted to take over space.

And I feel like Origin made Kycilia evil as shit just to justify her canon death in 79.

Deleted member 19218 · Sep 16, 2019

Servbot24 said:
Is there a particular reason for this? Sexiness is cool imo.

I just find it tacky for one to publicly flaunt their kinks like that, to me it's like turning up to a party dressed like this

It's a little off putting and people are going to find it strange.

RedHoodedOwl · Sep 16, 2019

Jaded Photographer said:
Say what you will about Gundam, but when they do a female villain, she's a good villain. Haman Karn and Katejina Loos are great.

Cima Garahau is a good anti-villain.

Deleted member 82 · Sep 16, 2019

Platy said:
Don't forget the opposite, where men take something women used and make it more prestigious

like Beatles, Star Trek or Computer Coding

and then act like it was theirs all along and exclude women from it, yeah, I was gonna say.

There was a decent exhibition in Paris about the history of women and coding that touched upon this subject. That's when I was first made aware of how computers/coding was initially a women's field before men came in and made it their toy. Pretty interesting, but I'm still very ignorant on the subject.

Morrigan · Sep 16, 2019

Gundam talk should probably go here?

Kalentan · Sep 16, 2019

Joe2187 said:
Alternate History Japan sure is different

Wait what. Is this a real thing? A game about defending Imperial Japan? What?

SchrodingerC · Sep 16, 2019

Lichtsang said:
Reminds me of this...

I just have so many questions.

Deleted member 32679 · Sep 16, 2019

Lichtsang said:
Reminds me of this...

How is that cutting the fabric if it's the dull edge of the knife? Wtf is that doing anyway???

Choppasmith · Sep 16, 2019

Astartes said:
How is that cutting the fabric if it's the dull edge of the knife? Wtf is that doing anyway???

That's been my reaction to this. It's just infuriatingly dumb. I'd love to hear the cockamamie "Breathes through her skin" explanation that they must've thought was brilliant.

kyorii · Sep 16, 2019

Kalentan said:
Wait what. Is this a real thing? A game about defending Imperial Japan? What?

On that note, hope folks realize Sakura Wars was a similar concept. In fact, the movie that came out was Imperial Japan defending against the American colonizing menace.

Kalentan · Sep 16, 2019

kyorii said:
On that note, hope folks realize Sakura Wars was a similar concept. In fact, the movie that came out was Imperial Japan defending against the American colonizing menace.

Huh. TIL.

Dary · Sep 16, 2019

Lichtsang said:
Reminds me of this...

Let's not forget that this sexy, sexy robot girl has the soul of Mary Magdalene!!

Xaszatm · Sep 16, 2019

Dary said:
Let's not forget that this sexy, sexy robot girl has the soul of Mary Magdalene!!

We already mentioned this but reminder that the evil version of her (also her actual body) is dark skin because that can of worms just opened!

Deleted member 32679 · Sep 16, 2019

Dary said:
Let's not forget that this sexy, sexy robot girl has the soul of Mary Magdalene!!

No seriously whats her actual soul

kyorii · Sep 16, 2019

Kalentan said:
Huh. TIL.

Pretty much a scene, where the American villian from the company Douglas-Steward (AKA McDonnell Douglas IRL) is looking over a model of Tokyo and pours his coffee over it stating in engrish "This country is not very beautiful".

Syril · Sep 16, 2019

kyorii said:
On that note, hope folks realize Sakura Wars was a similar concept. In fact, the movie that came out was Imperial Japan defending against the American colonizing menace.

Wtf I thought it supposed to be about fighting the forces of hell or something.

kyorii · Sep 16, 2019

Syril said:
Wtf I thought it supposed to be about fighting the forces of hell or something.

It's imperial Japan fighting the forces of hell, but foreign interests would utilize these demons in other entries. It's a pretty nationalistic series.

http://thesakurawarschannel.blogspot.com/2013/03/sakura-taisensakura-wars-history-part-2.html?m=1

Setting:

As stated before, Sakura Taisen takes place in a romanticized alternate-history version of the 1920's Tokyo and other cities in the world. It takes place in the Taishou, which rests exactly between World War I and World War II. After World War 1, Japan enjoyed increasing importance and recognition in international affairs. Its urban citizens became more prosperous, cultured, modern, socially-aware, independent, and cosmopolitan. This optimistic romantic "Taishou Democracy", to Hiroi, represented the starting point for an ideal future for Japan. He wished to rewind to that moment in history before Japan's loss of innocence in World War II, to a time when Japan was an eminent member of the world community on its own terms, just as much as our culture and Europe's; (even more actually, in the games Japan is the most powerful nation in the world). Especially in the teito or Imperial Capital.

Deleted member 1570 · Sep 16, 2019

Xaszatm said:
We already mentioned this but reminder that the evil version of her (also her actual body) is dark skin because that can of worms just opened!

At least Jesus still got to be both a good guy and dark-skinned.

Scrooge McDuck · Sep 16, 2019

Astartes said:
How is that cutting the fabric if it's the dull edge of the knife? Wtf is that doing anyway???

Choppasmith said:
That's been my reaction to this. It's just infuriatingly dumb. I'd love to hear the cockamamie "Breathes through her skin" explanation that they must've thought was brilliant.

IIRC, the knife thingie is supposed to be a compact Phase Transfer Cannon that would unleash a big ball of devastating energy. So it's basically the sexualized version of this:

esserius · Sep 16, 2019

kyorii said:
It's imperial Japan fighting the forces of hell, but foreign interests would utilize these demons in other entries. It's a pretty nationalistic series.

http://thesakurawarschannel.blogspot.com/2013/03/sakura-taisensakura-wars-history-part-2.html?m=1

The romanticism of all of this is nice and all, but Japan still had all the same problems most other 1920s nations did (cartoonish levels of racism and sexism, for example), and all the proposed opining is effectively just Sakura Taisen's version of scrubbing history. That said, I can say that the level of education about actual history in any schooling I had until college was itself hilariously inaccurate. I don't think I really got a concept of actual American history until I read "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn.

I still think that many of the problems, including those relating to sexism, are often perpetuated by the schooling system and its lack of having any real discussion about the various atrocities pretty much every nation has been historically involved in. A historical "period of innocence" is what revisionists want people to believe about history, happily ignoring massacres, rapists, and worse. We do history a massive disservice, and more importantly, the people, when we lie to them about reality.

Syril · Sep 16, 2019

esserius said:
The romanticism of all of this is nice and all, but Japan still had all the same problems most other 1920s nations did (cartoonish levels of racism and sexism, for example), and all the proposed opining is effectively just Sakura Taisen's version of scrubbing history. That said, I can say that the level of education about actual history in any schooling I had until college was itself hilariously inaccurate. I don't think I really got a concept of actual American history until I read "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn.

I still think that many of the problems, including those relating to sexism, are often perpetuated by the schooling system and its lack of having any real discussion about the various atrocities pretty much every nation has been historically involved in. A historical "period of innocence" is what revisionists want people to believe about history, happily ignoring massacres, rapists, and worse. We do history a massive disservice, and more importantly, the people, when we lie to them about reality.

I have a Megami Tensei game that also takes place in the Taisho era, but I never got far enough to know if it romanticizes things in the same way.

Pandora012 · Sep 16, 2019

Lichtsang said:
Yeah, I think so. It's a scene from Xenosaga if I'm not mistaken.

Edit: Apparently I was mistaken. This is from a spin-off game with KOS-MOS in it.

Yeah, it's from project x zone. The move is taken from her appearance in xeno 3.

Xaszatm · Sep 16, 2019

Syril said:
I have a Megami Tensei game that also takes place in the Taisho era, but I never got far enough to know if it romanticizes things in the same way.

I mean, the Megami Tensei games are also extremely nationalistic. Reminder that in the first game, the end of the world is caused by the Judeo-Christian God YHWH making Thor disguise himself as an Ambassador of the US to launch NUKES against the world and the only good ending in any of these main games is to revive the "goddess of Tokyo", while aligning with either path of the Heaven/Hell will result in bad endings.

spiritfox · Sep 16, 2019

I think there's a difference between nationalism in general and romanticizing a regime that was responsible for widespread abuse throughout their part of the world. One's worse than the other.

HK-47 · Sep 16, 2019

spiritfox said:
I think there's a difference between nationalism in general and romanticizing a regime that was responsible for widespread abuse throughout their part of the world. One's worse than the other.

One begets the other.

Syril · Sep 16, 2019

Xaszatm said:
I mean, the Megami Tensei games are also extremely nationalistic. Reminder that in the first game, the end of the world is caused by the Judeo-Christian God YHWH making Thor disguise himself as an Ambassador of the US to launch NUKES against the world and the only good ending in any of these main games is to revive the "goddess of Tokyo", while aligning with either path of the Heaven/Hell will result in bad endings.

Geez.

Eien1no1Yami · Sep 17, 2019

kyorii said:
It's imperial Japan fighting the forces of hell, but foreign interests would utilize these demons in other entries. It's a pretty nationalistic series.

http://thesakurawarschannel.blogspot.com/2013/03/sakura-taisensakura-wars-history-part-2.html?m=1

That's mostly the plot of the movie.
In general Sakura Wars and Ouji Hiroi himself is pretty anti-war and hates the military.
In Sakura Wars 2 the ground forces try to make a coup and the Navy stops them :P.
Even in real life back then, the japanese Navy was more open minded than the other military forces (I mean the higher-ups ) and questioned Hitler's motives
many times.

There is a japanese film called Captain Yamamoto which depicts that.

esserius · Sep 17, 2019

Eien1no1Yami said:
That's mostly the plot of the movie.
In general Sakura Wars and Ouji Hiroi himself is pretty anti-war and hates the military.
In Sakura Wars 2 the ground forces try to make a coup and the Navy stops them :P.
Even in real life back then, the japanese Navy was more open minded than the other military forces (I mean the higher-ups ) and questioned Hitler's motives
many times.

There is a japanese film called Captain Yamamoto which depicts that.

Worth noting that the 1968 version of that film is a well-known piece of propaganda. And the 2011 version isn't honestly that much better.

Valorizing militarism is at best glossing over their oppressive nature, and at worst attempting to influence history by washing over their intent and actions. In an ideal situation, any military's goal should be to simply not exist. The more it is needed, the more the government of its representative country has failed to live up to being a force for the good of people, rather than the good of its own imperialism.

Eien1no1Yami · Sep 17, 2019

esserius said:
Worth noting that the 1968 version of that film is a well-known piece of propaganda. And the 2011 version isn't honestly that much better.

Valorizing militarism is at best glossing over their oppressive nature, and at worst attempting to influence history by washing over their intent and actions. In an ideal situation, any military's goal should be to simply not exist. The more it is needed, the more the government of its representative country has failed to live up to being a force for the good of people, rather than the good of its own imperialism.

Well yeah, I agree completely that's exactly how Ouji Hiroi thinks :P.
As for the film (2011) I saw it many years ago but I remember founding this "conflict" between the Navy and the Army
to be really interesting.

Biestmann · Sep 17, 2019

Tales of Crestoria is supposed to come out sometime in 2019, probably the last day of the year at this rate. Today they released a trailer showcasing the main characters' mystic artes. I like Misella's design quite a lot and think her mystic arte as well looks very pretty. Then you have Yuna who is a sort of Sheenaesque character, her mystic arte focusing on her bouncing cleavage before it does her face. I guess this is a gacha game in the end.

Platy · Sep 18, 2019

Why women criticise sexualised character designs ?

Because we have a thread that non specify gender and asks for positive sexualised designs and we had ... 2 men posted?

People don't even CONSIDER men for the thread

Crossing Eden · Sep 18, 2019

Genuinely the most surprising bit of information from the Death Stranding gameplay demo.

spman2099 · Sep 18, 2019

Xaszatm said:
Gonna be honest, I'm more WTF!?! by the alternate history glorifying Imperial Japan than the fact said alt-history Imperial Japan approves of skimpy tit ninjas.

This is what happens when you intentionally conceal your wartime atrocities from your children instead of educating them. Japan's approach to teaching its history is genuinely awful. It isn't surprising that they are experiencing an increase in nationalism. It fucking turns my stomach.

Wanderer5 · Sep 19, 2019

Promare is in theaters this week for the US, and I guess because it is Studio Trigger, they had the opening to Shantae 5 shown ahead of the movie. Seeing the first couple seconds on the big screen was quite a sight.

Mekanos · Sep 19, 2019

Wanderer5 said:
Promare is in theaters this week for the US, and I guess because it is Studio Trigger, they had the opening to Shantae 5 shown ahead of the movie. Seeing the first couple seconds on the big screen was quite a sight.

It's weird that we're all just okay with Wayforward continuing to sexualize a 16 year old girl.

Like, they put that out there. Someone asked them on Twitter how old she is and they could have said "oh, we never pinned down a canon age, but we imagine early 20s" or something noncommittal. But nope.

Then again western animation has a pretty big problem with artists who have a history of drawing sexualized minors so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.

Wanderer5 · Sep 19, 2019

Mekanos said:
It's weird that we're all just okay with Wayforward continuing to sexualize a 16 year old girl.

Like, they put that out there. Someone asked them on Twitter how old she is and they could have said "oh, we never pinned down a canon age, but we imagine early 20s" or something noncommittal. But nope.

Then again western animation has a pretty big problem with artists who have a history of drawing sexualized minors so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.

She can't be at least 18, because reasons.

Schlomo · Sep 19, 2019

kyorii said:
On that note, hope folks realize Sakura Wars was a similar concept. In fact, the movie that came out was Imperial Japan defending against the American colonizing menace.

At least the first game is kind of the other way around. The main bad guy wants to erect a new shogunate and goes on about wanting to eliminate all corrupting western influence.

Cerulean_skylark · Sep 19, 2019

I'd love to see some of the opinions from the women here regarding the "positive sexualization thread" Not to intervene in the conversation already happening but i totally get the vibe of men thinking they know what's good for women vibe.

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