Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

Griselbrand · Jul 15, 2019

Mariip said:
In bea's concept art

She's no zarya but i'd save that for a rock gym leader

I'm late to this but I like this design precisely because it's a mix of styles.

Not sure what the kneepads are for but if we're talking Muay Thai like the Thai shorts would suggest I'd think she'd have shin guards or ankle wraps instead. But no gloves makes me think she's a grappler, and the rash guard covering her torso leans that way. On days where the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu people at our gym roll without Gi they wear rash guards for their legs and upper bodies, usually shorts on top. That shirt reminds me of this Hayabusa branded shirt that I own which kind of looks like a graphic tee but with a small collar and ultra light and breathable.

From a complete outside perspective to the series (haven't played Pokémon in years) I think it's pretty cool, looks like she's ready for any kind of sparring or rolling at the gym.

Delphine · Jul 15, 2019

A Plague Tale: Innocence, apart from a young empowering and lovely main teenage girl character, as well as a great teenage girl side-character, has one of the most beautiful old woman character model I have ever seen: Clervie!

Seeing old women in video games is SUPER RARE, and even more rare is a positive representation of them (and not a horric/disgusting one) where the women is beautifully dressed, and is a good & benevolent character (because old women are usually all mean and petty in other ones).

I love her very much, she's honestly goals.

Morrigan · Jul 15, 2019

Warrior of Light said:
Except the new character in that mobile game. She looks so out of place compared to the classic characters.

I was talking exclusively about the original PS1 game. N

Famassu said:
Isn't the "hooker with a heart of gold" character a really common (and often criticized*) trope?

*because while these characters might decent characters otherwise, their profession also give showrunners/writers the green light to put them into some scenes where they are blatantly objectified in a "she's a hooker, she must be naked in half the scenes!" way.

None of this applies to Arianna. She is never sexualized whatsoever.

Krauser Kat · Jul 15, 2019

Laiza said:
Here we go, a rendition of Bea without twigs for limbs:

Source: https://twitter.com/Cessa_sama/status/1148637944728547328

Still has a pinched waist and still too short (look at that head:body size ratio, lol), but still an improvement in my view.

This is dumb.

This is janja garnbret literally the worlds best woman rock climber. shes 20. low body fat doesnt make you strong.

Famassu · Jul 15, 2019

Morrigan said:
I was talking exclusively about the original PS1 game. N

None of this applies to Arianna. She is never sexualized whatsoever.

Yeah, I know, was just answering mostly to the more generic "hey, here's this rare case of a sex-worker in fiction who is a good person" sentiment I got from the post. Plenty of stories have them & some do them better than others (Bloodborne being on the better side of things).

Crossing Eden · Jul 15, 2019

Krauser Kat said:
This is dumb.

This is janja garnbret literally the worlds best woman rock climber. shes 20. low body fat doesnt make you strong.

Weirdly unflattering photo when she most definitely has strong muscles.

Laiza · Jul 15, 2019

Krauser Kat said:
This is dumb.

This is janja garnbret literally the worlds best woman rock climber. shes 20. low body fat doesnt make you strong.

That's kind of besides the point. Yes, a lot of depictions of muscular people are inaccurate due to the excessively low body fat %s displayed, but there is a particular bent towards never displaying women with muscle mass OR muscle definition.

I want equality, and that means I'm willing to accept liberties taken for style or flair over realism if it means being treated the same way as the men get treated. If the men get rippling bodies with stupidly low fat percentages then I want to see the women get the same treatment too. We can then address the unreality of it all separately, as a whole.

Believe me, I am no stranger to this particular problem in popular media:

Weltall Zero · Jul 15, 2019

Famassu said:
Your post just came off as if it's rare altogether to have a sex worker be a good person (in fiction). It might not be super common in games but in fiction altogether, it's pretty common and not always well handled.

I didn't say it's always negative independent of context (that's why the "often" is there, inside parenthesis even). As I already said in my post, some such characters are often criticized because while they might be good people personality-wise & even well written, how they are often framed & otherwise treated (especially in visual mediums) can still be more in line with objectified female characters with at least some intent to titillate than only trying to offer a progressive view of sex-workers, just with a progressive bent. Like, often they are depicted as having to do the job to survive, but they could be given other means to do so, yet aren't because having them be sex-workers allows for some sexy times for the viewers.

I don't know how to word this without sounding dismissive, but I literally don't understand how anything of what you're saying applies to this case; like, at all:
- We were discussing the positive women in the videogame Bloodborne, in a thread about female designs in videogames, in a videogame forum. Why would you suddenly shift the goalpost to "well it's not that common in fiction in general", and more surreally, assume I was talking about fiction in general?
- The issues with the trope are literally non-existent in Arianna's case at all. They are completely unrelated to the discussion; I don't know why you keep bringing them up, especially as if "it's bad when used to sexualize" would be a hard concept to grasp for regulars of this thread of all things.

Aexact · Jul 15, 2019

Morrigan said:
I also like Wild ARMs's representation.

I do appreciate that 3 had a heroine whose strongly defined desires and personality moved the story forward and had minimal dismissals of her character because "she's a girl" and the more organic "she's new at this". It's improved since then but in 2002, it was a unicorn.

Weltall Zero · Jul 15, 2019

Famassu said:
Yeah, I know, was just answering mostly to the more generic "hey, here's this rare case of a sex-worker in fiction who is a good person" sentiment I got from the post.

Again, where the everliving hell did you get that from? The post you have an issue with has two freaking sentences, one of which cotnains "in gaming" and the other "in the entire game"! O_o

Dary · Jul 15, 2019

Aexact said:
I do appreciate that 3 had a heroine whose strongly defined desires and personality moved the story forward and had minimal dismissals of her character because "she's a girl" and the more organic "she's new at this". It's improved since then but in 2002, it was a unicorn.

Wild Arms 3 came from a timeline where JRPGs didn't devolve into pandering, shounen-drenched shite.

Axelon · Jul 15, 2019

Victimhood everywhere.

sabrina · Jul 15, 2019

Axelon said:
Victimhood everywhere.

Is this a point you feel like elaborating on?

Axelon · Jul 15, 2019

sabrina said:
Is this a point you feel like elaborating on?

I'd like to but it would be a lot of wasted time and breath since I would fight against people who just want to be right in their lives, but the OT is so ridiculous I thought it was a troll

Delphine · Jul 15, 2019

Big motherfucking sigh.

Kcannon · Jul 15, 2019

Axelon said:
I'd like to but it would be a lot of wasted time and breath since I would fight against people who just want to be right in their lives, but the OT is so ridiculous I thought it was a troll

i.e. "I'm a coward."

Axelon · Jul 15, 2019

Kcannon said:
i.e. "I'm a coward."

Cowardice of rambling about useless topics on a gaming forum? Wow, you are taking that seriously man.

Biestmann · Jul 15, 2019

Axelon said:
Victimhood everywhere.

You don't even deserve to don Lady Maria as your avatar.

Kcannon · Jul 15, 2019

Axelon said:
Cowardice of rambling about useless topics on a gaming forum? Wow, you are taking that seriously man.

So useless you came to post in it.

Lol. Talk about attention-seeking.

But hey, we know you're already minimizing an actually important issue, so good luck.

Manu · Jul 15, 2019

IT'S IMPORTANT THAT ALL OF YOU KNOW HOW MUCH I DON'T CARE ABOUT THING

Axelon · Jul 15, 2019

Biestmann said:
You don't even deserve to don Lady Maria as your avatar.

Of course, because if I say such things I'm not a good person and I'm not respecter of women AHAHAHAHAHHA pls

Biestmann · Jul 15, 2019

Axelon said:
Of course, because if I say such things I'm not a good person and I'm not respecter of women AHAHAHAHAHHA pls

Glad you understand.

Ginga_Densetsu · Jul 15, 2019

Axelon said:
Of course, because if I say such things I'm not a good person and I'm not respecter of women AHAHAHAHAHHA pls

Well you sure sound like an asshole.

Laiza · Jul 15, 2019

Axelon said:
Of course, because if I say such things I'm not a good person and I'm not respecter of women AHAHAHAHAHHA pls

I assume your standard for "respect" is "I am not literally physically assaulting a woman right this moment" because your behavior shows a very distinct lack of respect otherwise..

Axelon · Jul 15, 2019

Biestmann said:
Glad you understand.

Glad you don't understand :)

Laiza said:
I assume your standard for "respect" is "I am not literally physically assaulting a woman right this moment" because your behavior shows a very distinct lack of respect otherwise..

Are you all with an IQ under 70? I respect those women that don't need to cry about meaningless stuff, the one that fought for their rights and ended up with a bunch of feminist millennials thinking that if they don't cook and if they don't expose part of their body in their in-game character they are rebels.

NoName999 · Jul 15, 2019

Axelon said:
Victimhood everywhere.

Yes, account that's not even a week old with only 40 posts, there is victimhood!

Except the ones playing the victim isn't who you're thinking

Delphine · Jul 15, 2019

Axelon said:
Of course, because if I say such things I'm not a good person and I'm not respecter of women AHAHAHAHAHHA pls

RESPECTER OF WOMEN!!!!!

I need that as my new title.

sabrina · Jul 15, 2019

"I don't want to get in a fight" -> proceeds to get in a fight

"victimhood everywhere" -> proceeds to act the part of a victim

Keldroc · Jul 15, 2019

Axelon said:
Of course, because if I say such things I'm not a good person and I'm not respecter of women AHAHAHAHAHHA pls

You do a dynamite impression of one.

Biestmann · Jul 15, 2019

Delphine said:
RESPECTER OF WOMEN!!!!!

I need that as my new title.

It's pretty good

Delphine · Jul 15, 2019

Biestmann said:
It's pretty good

It honestly has a nice ring to it. Lowkey sounds like a support class in a MMO.

Manu · Jul 15, 2019

Axelon said:
Glad you don't understand :)

You could have explained in the time it took you to make like 5 posts about how much wrong everyone except you is.

Biestmann · Jul 15, 2019

Manu said:
You could have explained in the time it took you to make like 5 posts about how much wrong everyone except you is.

He did via an edit he made likely moments before he was banned. Dude is an ass.

Axelon said:
Are you all with an IQ under 70? I respect those women that don't need to cry about meaningless stuff, the one that fought for their rights and ended up with a bunch of feminist millennials thinking that if they don't cook and if they don't expose part of their body in their in-game character they are rebels.

svacina · Jul 15, 2019

Axelon said:
I'd like to but it would be a lot of wasted time and breath since I would fight against people who just want to be right in their lives, but the OT is so ridiculous I thought it was a troll

Did you join just to heroically suicide in this one thread?

mael · Jul 15, 2019

no need to waste another page on the obvious troll, report and move on.

Laiza · Jul 15, 2019

Axelon said:
Are you all with an IQ under 70? I respect those women that don't need to cry about meaningless stuff, the one that fought for their rights and ended up with a bunch of feminist millennials thinking that if they don't cook and if they don't expose part of their body in their in-game character they are rebels.

Perma'd because troll but I would still like to point out that being able to listen to peoples' concerns without dismissing them offhand because you don't share them is a significant part of respecting other people. If you just brush everything off because you think the concerns aren't "legitimate" you aren't actually showing respect at all.

I would also like to point out that continuous dismissal of concerns is a form of emotional abuse and you're kind of an asshole for perpetuating that kind of behavior.

Delphine · Jul 15, 2019

Honestly the whole thing was just... tragic.

It makes me sad as well, that there are such people that can't be reasoned with. Not having a modicum of empathy nor any soft skills truly is a plague in nowadays' society. I guess they'll only vaguely start to understand if they happen to have a daughter one day, like a lot of men who tend to suddenly have that epiphany at that particular moment in their lives. And even then, I'm not sure.

Manu · Jul 15, 2019

Biestmann said:
He did via an edit he made likely moments before he was banned. Dude is an ass.

lmao what a tool.

"Let me tell you what I, as a man, consider things worth discussing about by feminism."

ImNotAFroot · Jul 15, 2019

Shout-out to Wild Arms 4 for giving us one of my fave female characters of all time, Raquel, who had a beautiful story and is shockingly allowed to be in love with someone other than the mc.
She has an amazing design as well:

sabrina · Jul 15, 2019

Delphine said:
I guess they'll only vaguely start to understand if they happen to have a daughter one day, like a lot of men happen to. And even then, I'm not sure.

Sort of a tangent, but it bothers me when a dude says he finally respects women after having a daughter. Because first of all outside of adoption he would have had to be with a woman in order to conjure that daughter. And secondly because it often comes across as a dude worried about his property remaining unspoiled less than an individual human's rights.

Delphine · Jul 15, 2019

sabrina said:
Sort of a tangent, but it bothers me when a dude says he finally respects women after having a daughter. Because first of all outside of adoption he would have had to be with a woman in order to conjure that daughter. And secondly because it often comes across as a dude worried about his property remaining unspoiled less than an individual human's rights.

I cannot overstate how hearing men saying they finally understand feminism because they have a daughter now irks me to no end. On one hand, I'm glad they finally get it (when it happens they actually do, and aren't on the "unspoiled property" part of the spectrum), on the other, it means the testimony of pretty much all the women in their entire lives, their moms, sisters and wives/significant others included, were nowhere near enough to make them get it. And that's an incredibly dishearteningly sad conclusion to get at. Both my brothers have daughters now, and I see them growing a bit thanks to that, and I'm happy about it, but also, hello I've been here all along saying and denouncing the exact same shit. I just didn't matter enough even though I literally share blood with them.

Biestmann · Jul 15, 2019

ImNotAFroot said:
Shout-out to Wild Arms 4 for giving us one of my fave female characters of all time, Raquel, who had a beautiful story and is shockingly allowed to be in love with someone other than the mc.
She has an amazing design as well:
[image]

I've never played any of the games, but seen a good number of female designs from this series that I really enjoy. Clarissa from XF might be one of my favorite designs of all time. Of course, not really knowing anything about said character, they might have completely botchered her in the writing department. Maybe one day I'll dare find out.

Clarissa Arwin [Wild Arms XF]

caff!!! · Jul 15, 2019

On a related subject to PS1/2 games, I found it annoying that racing games just had to have to have gratuitous flag women, etc (street racing all but guaranteed it) through this era for a misguided attempt to be more appealing.

SolidSnakex · Jul 15, 2019

caff!!! said:
On a related subject to PS1/2 games, I found it annoying that racing games just had to have to have gratuitous flag women, etc (street racing all but guaranteed it) through this era for a misguided attempt to be more appealing.

Racing games during that era pulled heavily from real car culture. And grid girls and such were really popular back then. They're slowly fading away now.

Moogle · Jul 15, 2019

Laiza said:
I would also like to point out that continuous dismissal of concerns is a form of emotional abuse and you're kind of an asshole for perpetuating that kind of behavior.

please say it louder so the bros over in EtcetEra can hear

Ashlette · Jul 15, 2019

kaebie said:
please say it louder so the bros over in EtcetEra can hear

What's the context here?

Teriyaki Blues · Jul 15, 2019

Ashlette said:
What's the context here?

A repeating pattern of the actual lived experiences of people (who happen to be women, LGBT+, PoC, and so on) being dismissed because of what the "bros" think, it happens basically every time there's a thread focusing on their issues. I mean there were even defenders of shitty/no pockets on women's clothing "because my SO says they ruin the line of the clothes" or whatever. It is kind of ridiculously bad and we've lost several significant posters because of it.

Aexact · Jul 15, 2019

Biestmann said:
I've never played any of the games, but seen a good number of female designs from this series that I really enjoy. Clarissa from XF might be one of my favorite designs of all time. Of course, not really knowing anything about said character, they might have completely botchered her in the writing department. Maybe one day I'll dare find out.

Clarissa Arwin [Wild Arms XF]

XF was really enjoyable in that regard! She's got a simplistic guiding morale code but it's full of character and informs her actions. It's the sort of Wild Arms angst that slots in nicely with the nation vs. nation politicking and rebellion of a SRPG plot

(before it descends into late game Wild Arms-style aliens and mechas)

... I mean, I liked it.

Ashlette · Jul 15, 2019

Teriyaki Blues said:
A repeating pattern of the actual lived experiences of people (who happen to be women, LGBT+, PoC, and so on) being dismissed because of what the "bros" think, it happens basically every time there's a thread focusing on their issues. I mean there were even defenders of shitty/no pockets on women's clothing "because my SO says they ruin the line of the clothes" or whatever. It is kind of ridiculously bad and we've lost several significant posters because of it.

Thank you for the clarification!

I agree that this is definitely an issue on this forum. I've seen idiotic dogpiles against someone who "dared" to post their criticisms of Persona 5 for its homophobic caricatures. My eyes had to double check that they were looking at ResetEra and not some pro-GG shithole.

Thankfully the moderation banned those idiots.

Sadly this forum is a constant target for "alt-right" folk who feel catharsis when they see their infraction above their posts. One member even said they describe it as a "badge of honor". In other words, they are happy that they left their mark and couldn't care less if they hurt others. If that isn't selfish I don't know what is.

But what can else can the site do to tackle this issue? I wish there was a way to prevent untrustworthy members from posting in serious threads. But is there a reliable way to verify trustworthiness? I dunno, just finding a half-decent solution would be complicated.

Elma4Smash · Jul 15, 2019

Sorry in advance if this offends someone, but it's something I experienced yesterday and felt curious about what other people, especially those more sensitive to the topic, think of it. Maybe it's just me being a horny idiot, but maybe I have a point. Here goes:

So I decided to continue playing Tomb Raider (the 2nd game) on Gamepass, because I had just finished Gato Roboto and I'm hyped for Fire Emblem and just was in the mood for gaming.
Quickly, I noticed how attractive Lara Croft was, no, I was actually really distracted by her looks. I won't go into further detail here.

Now the part that I found interesting when I kept thinking about it is: I've never been this distracted by any of the older Lara Croft-designs. You'd think the hyper sexualized design before the reboot would be more distracting, but that wasn't the case.

So I tried to explain it for myself and reached the following conclusion: Old Lara Croft is so over-the-top sexualized that it actually makes it easier ignore the design because it's just some cartoonish, rudiculous character model. With reboot-Lara Croft, however, we have a more realistic looking design, but still on the 'very attractive' side of things. Because ahe looks like an actual woman, it's more difficult to see her as an abstract polygon figure, and constantly watching this 'could be real'-protagonist becomes much more irritating.

Anyway, that's my experience. It made me wonder if outlawing these kinds of hyper sexualized designs could actually result in the opposite effect of what people who hate sexualization in games desire. If you think this is dumb, pls ignore what I wrote. 🙈

Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

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