I don't have faith in this company making school girl protagonists anything but leery
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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I don't have faith in this company making school girl protagonists anything but leery
The creepy sexualisation of their characters is the big reason why I could never get into any Wayforward games.
Yeah it's a problem. Though usually when working on another IP they tend to reign that stuff in. And it sucks because Wayforward's games are very solid and fun but after Pirate's Curse they really pushed hard on the fanservice pedal and never let up.
Yeah, I haven't touched the games after Pirate's Curse. The weird, "Yeah, we're pervy, but we're self aware so it's fine" vibe I got was a real turn off. It sucks to see a Western dev really stick their heels in to the ground about this.
That Shantae 5 animation is exactly what I expected. Wayforward has always emphasis her sexy design and I don't see that stopping anytime soon. The games' themselves are up and down in quality but the Shantae characters are what keeps that series relevant and popular. And yes I large portion of that is appealing to horny dudes. Which is a shame because I like Shantae as a character and relaxed, Saturday morning cartoon style of the games' world makes the series pretty delightful to just unwind to.
I think Pokémon Sword and Shield has pretty good design for it's female Trainers and NPC's:
Even the secretary looks pretty good. Perhaps her skirt could've been better, but it's perfectly accaptable I think.
Even the secretary looks pretty good. Perhaps her skirt could've been better, but it's perfectly accaptable I think.
Aye, not feeling it. I feel like pkmn trainer designs toe the line far too often and I personally think they go too far on designs like this :/
Did she love her secretary job so much that she decided to keep it even when her became VP? Is the president a pervert that only gave her the VP position if she remained as his secretary?
You mean that a secretary is the vice president at the same time? Outside of the obvious gender issue of the boss being a dude and his underling secretary being female, it wouldn't be all that mindboggling for an assistant to the CEO to be vice CEO, though it's something that i'd associate with small companies.
Also, if we want to be extremely generous, we could also wonder whether "secretary" isn't something lost in translation. A lot of languages use the word "secretary" for executive positions (like "The First Secretary General for the UN").
I mean... I know it's not that ;) But in theory it could be ;)
The first render of MK11 Sindel
Reminder of her previous design
You forgot the one cutscene where she's topless for no reason in the desert.
The first render of MK11 Sindel
honestly she kind of looks like kim kardashian (but with like quote unquote old people make up on)
A lot has changed with pokemon human character designs.
That kinda of a pass but looking at the scene the framing makes it a bit leering.
You know what they could had done was cover her in a blanket just as she was fully formed.
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Fantastic new video (~21 minutes) from Renegade Cut (a progressive, social justice minded media analyst, about the recent bluster from mostly straight cis-men regarding the choice to reduce Tifa's cup size in FF7 Remake:
At least this evening, I'm not really in the mood to create a topic for this vid but it's still a video I'm compelled to at least share here. It's only tangentially related but it reminds me of a similar video (~46 Minutes) from Jack Saint about the bigoted sexist wave that crested over Brie Larson early in her Captain Marvel reign.
EDIT:
Forgot to include my favorite part of the Renegade Cut video where they cite this amazing and succinct quote from Dr. Emma Vossen about the mindset of diversity & ethical representation being "political":
At least this evening, I'm not really in the mood to create a topic for this vid but it's still a video I'm compelled to at least share here. It's only tangentially related but it reminds me of a similar video (~46 Minutes) from Jack Saint about the bigoted sexist wave that crested over Brie Larson early in her Captain Marvel reign.
EDIT:
Forgot to include my favorite part of the Renegade Cut video where they cite this amazing and succinct quote from Dr. Emma Vossen about the mindset of diversity & ethical representation being "political":
Emma Vossen said:
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It's the Tony Stark/Pepper Potts set up, makes perfect sense to me.
He's probably a gym leader or something as well.
User Banned (Permanent): Rationalizing Sexism; Account in Junior Phase
I'm not reading through 200 pages of replies to see if this has been mentioned already, but at least I know none of what I am about to say is on the list of shitty counter-arguments.
1. Developers aren't "desperate for boobs," their job is to make a product that aligns with a specific creative design (to satisfy the guys that came up with it), make a game that will sell (to satisfy the publisher / investors), make it appealing and fun to play for the sector of the market the product is targeted at. Developers that can do all three make lots of games and have repeat successes. If you ask ANY developer who isn't wholly self-funded and has no obligations to anyone except their own creative vision whether they would rather sell to a majority of potential customers or a minority, you're going to get the same answer every time. That's why a great number of indie titles don't have this problem. Unemployment and potential poverty make excellent motivators. Personally, I'm utterly disgusted with how my employer does a great many things, but those things are done through me because it keeps my family comfortable.
2. If you want women to be treated like people, that's fine...encouraged, even. One of the things about video games that make them fun to play is the fact that none of the elements are treated like real people. In the body of your post, you want women to be treated like real people, but in the shitty counter-arguments you say that the women in the games have no agency and aren't real. The conviction someone has to buy a game because of trashbag bikinis is far greater than the desire to impose that same dress code on real women. Are there exceptions to this rule? Of course, very few. Those people aren't rational, decent human beings and wanting all of the women in the world to do what they want "just because" is less a sign of sexism but more a sign of serious mental illness. That illness manifests as sexist behavior in this instance, of course, and likely other awful behaviors (cruelty to animals, overall lack of empathy, etc).
3. "do you really want to objectify women that badly?" This is a bad talking point.
4. "Quiet breathing through her skin" this is also invalid. Quiet's presence on Motherbase is a problem for many reasons. First, none of the men trust her. Secondly, she's a woman set in a game that has already made it clear that it doesn't shy away from the topic of rape (see Ground Zeros). What's true for Ground Zeros is true for Phantom Pain. A woman in a predominantly male populated, isolated environment, where those men are combat trained is a dangerous place to be. Big Boss and Ocelot know this, which is why Ocelot mentioned that she refuses to wear clothes. She can't refuse to wear clothes unless she was first offered them. Not only were they offered, the person who offered them was hospitalized. Quiet is also kept in a cage on the Medical Platform. This isn't to keep Quiet imprisoned, because her abilities allow her to come and go as she pleases. The cage is to keep her safe from being attacked by the men on Motherbase. While disciplined to the point of fanaticism, Diamond Dogs are still human, thus prone to human failure. Ocelot and Miller go into detail about the unrest she creates on the base. Why am I going on about this since it's just some pixels and has no agency? That's an excellent question, since this is a second contradiction in the original post. But because you chose Quiet, I felt the explanation was needed. You also mentioned that a sports bra + shorts would be practical, when there's nothing practical about being in combat wearing shorts and a sports bra. Is there anything practical about what Quiet does wear? No, but don't say that a sports bra and shorts is somehow more practical.
5. "...this game is for dudes and the women are there for eye candy."
I can remember a time when Final Fantasy games were "made for dudes" and the women in them were just "eye candy." That was back when they were sold in cartridge format, and if they didn't work, you blew into them. Yes, it's been that long.
6. "Quiet wearing a trash bag bikini is actually empowering and feminist"
This is actually quite hilarious and whoever said this is so utterly off the mark that it's not worth considering as a rebuttal.
I feel like much of the anger you feel over this is because you're faced with such a large number of bad responses to your otherwise legitimate concern, and those are the ones you're choosing to base your response on rather than a larger picture. If games had a problem with sexualizing females, it's not a problem with games. Remember, their targets are consumers who want their products made certain way. It's the same as toys for kids, fashion magazines, sports drinks, fast food, cars, antidepressants, breakfast cereals, penis enlargement pills, shoes...literally everything you can market will be marketed outside it's practical use and made to invoke an emotional response because that's why people spend money on things they don't need.
TL:DR,
Take your hate out on consumers because they're the reason things are shitty, that goes for more than just video games. It goes for most everything wrong with life.
1. Developers aren't "desperate for boobs," their job is to make a product that aligns with a specific creative design (to satisfy the guys that came up with it), make a game that will sell (to satisfy the publisher / investors), make it appealing and fun to play for the sector of the market the product is targeted at. Developers that can do all three make lots of games and have repeat successes. If you ask ANY developer who isn't wholly self-funded and has no obligations to anyone except their own creative vision whether they would rather sell to a majority of potential customers or a minority, you're going to get the same answer every time. That's why a great number of indie titles don't have this problem. Unemployment and potential poverty make excellent motivators. Personally, I'm utterly disgusted with how my employer does a great many things, but those things are done through me because it keeps my family comfortable.
2. If you want women to be treated like people, that's fine...encouraged, even. One of the things about video games that make them fun to play is the fact that none of the elements are treated like real people. In the body of your post, you want women to be treated like real people, but in the shitty counter-arguments you say that the women in the games have no agency and aren't real. The conviction someone has to buy a game because of trashbag bikinis is far greater than the desire to impose that same dress code on real women. Are there exceptions to this rule? Of course, very few. Those people aren't rational, decent human beings and wanting all of the women in the world to do what they want "just because" is less a sign of sexism but more a sign of serious mental illness. That illness manifests as sexist behavior in this instance, of course, and likely other awful behaviors (cruelty to animals, overall lack of empathy, etc).
3. "do you really want to objectify women that badly?" This is a bad talking point.
4. "Quiet breathing through her skin" this is also invalid. Quiet's presence on Motherbase is a problem for many reasons. First, none of the men trust her. Secondly, she's a woman set in a game that has already made it clear that it doesn't shy away from the topic of rape (see Ground Zeros). What's true for Ground Zeros is true for Phantom Pain. A woman in a predominantly male populated, isolated environment, where those men are combat trained is a dangerous place to be. Big Boss and Ocelot know this, which is why Ocelot mentioned that she refuses to wear clothes. She can't refuse to wear clothes unless she was first offered them. Not only were they offered, the person who offered them was hospitalized. Quiet is also kept in a cage on the Medical Platform. This isn't to keep Quiet imprisoned, because her abilities allow her to come and go as she pleases. The cage is to keep her safe from being attacked by the men on Motherbase. While disciplined to the point of fanaticism, Diamond Dogs are still human, thus prone to human failure. Ocelot and Miller go into detail about the unrest she creates on the base. Why am I going on about this since it's just some pixels and has no agency? That's an excellent question, since this is a second contradiction in the original post. But because you chose Quiet, I felt the explanation was needed. You also mentioned that a sports bra + shorts would be practical, when there's nothing practical about being in combat wearing shorts and a sports bra. Is there anything practical about what Quiet does wear? No, but don't say that a sports bra and shorts is somehow more practical.
5. "...this game is for dudes and the women are there for eye candy."
I can remember a time when Final Fantasy games were "made for dudes" and the women in them were just "eye candy." That was back when they were sold in cartridge format, and if they didn't work, you blew into them. Yes, it's been that long.
6. "Quiet wearing a trash bag bikini is actually empowering and feminist"
This is actually quite hilarious and whoever said this is so utterly off the mark that it's not worth considering as a rebuttal.
I feel like much of the anger you feel over this is because you're faced with such a large number of bad responses to your otherwise legitimate concern, and those are the ones you're choosing to base your response on rather than a larger picture. If games had a problem with sexualizing females, it's not a problem with games. Remember, their targets are consumers who want their products made certain way. It's the same as toys for kids, fashion magazines, sports drinks, fast food, cars, antidepressants, breakfast cereals, penis enlargement pills, shoes...literally everything you can market will be marketed outside it's practical use and made to invoke an emotional response because that's why people spend money on things they don't need.
TL:DR,
Take your hate out on consumers because they're the reason things are shitty, that goes for more than just video games. It goes for most everything wrong with life.
By admin request, since the last thread was getting obscenely long and didn't show any signs of slowing down anytime soon.
Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
I want to get out of the way that I am a sex positive feminist, and when I criticise sexualized female character designs, it has nothing to do with prudishness or slut-shaming or anything like that; instead, it comes from a place of frustration, because how the hell are we supposed to combat...www.resetera.com
I want to get out of the way that I am a sex positive feminist, and when I criticise sexualized female character designs, it has nothing to do with prudishness or slut-shaming or anything like that; instead, it comes from a place of frustration, because how the hell are we supposed to combat sexism in gaming when one of the biggest examples of that--that serves to both reinforce and reflect sexist viewpoints--is consistently let slide?
Because yes, if you have a game where all the dudes are covered from head to toe and your one female character is running around in a trash bag bikini and looking thoroughly uncomfortable about it, it's sexist. It reinforces the (already widespread, particularly in gaming "culture") idea that women are objects who exist solely for male titillation and pleasure. It's not "puritanism", it's wanting to be treated like goddamn people.
There's nothing wrong with a female character wearing a bikini if, for example, a game is set on a beach, and the male characters are in their swimming trunks. Complaining about that would be prudishness, and a little ridiculous. But it often seems like developers are so desperate for boobs that they're willing to break the audience's suspension of disbelief and hurt their own narrative in the process, and it's like, wow, do you really want to objectify women that badly? Can't you just leave us alone for five fucking minutes? Because Quiet breathing through her skin is not a compelling reason for a trash bag bikini, within the narrative or outside of it. If you really, really want to stick with the skin-breathing, fuck, just dress her in a sports bra and running shorts. At least that would be practical, and not grossly out of character. Cindy is a mechanic in the fucking desert who walks around in hot pants and a bikini top, because she has grease-repelling skin that never burns, I guess. Meanwhile, Noctis and co. roll up in jeans and t-shirts. It's like, okay, we get it, this game is for dudes and the women are there for eye candy. Can we stop now, please? We're just so fucking tired of this. And then we get steamrolled by dudes who barge in and try to insist that this shit is actually empowering and we're just prudes, and, like, we get it, you don't want anyone to take your boobs away, stop pretending it's some righteous cause, thanks.
(I've talked about objectified female characters in gaming before, and I have received some amazing responses: I'm jealous because I'm a fat ugly loser; I have no idea what I'm talking about and Quiet wearing a trash bag bikini is actually empowering and feminist; "ohmygod why are you trying to take away my BEWBS"... you get the idea. Still, hopefully this time will go a little better.)
For those struck with sudden illiteracy when the topic of feminism in gaming comes up, a simple tl;dr:
And now, a pre-emptive rebuttal to the shitty counter-arguments I can see coming from miles away:
- Women get shit irl every goddamn day of our lives, we don't want it in our video games which are supposed to be fun escapism, not a constant reminder of how shitty being a woman is
- If male characters are fully dressed and women are running around in assless chaps, that just makes us feel like shit because it makes it clear the devs (and presumably a not-insignificant part of the audience) don't view us as people but as objects of titillation
- Sexist portrayals in media help to reinforce sexist notions irl! Not only are tittyninjas a giant kick in the teeth to female gamers, they also actively help make the real world even more fucking sexist garbage than it already is.
- 99.9% of the time the sexualised designs don't make any sense, in universe or out, and in the end the devs are harming their own narrative and world for the sake of boobies.
And, in case you're in doubt as to whether any given female character design falls under "objectified bullshit", here's a handy bingo card to help you out.
- "lol i love teh bewbs" good for you. fuck off
- "lmao dumb feminazis trying to censor games" it's not censoring. it's criticism. it's asking to be treated like goddamn people.
- "you're a prude" i'm a sex-positive feminist. that means i support women's right to control over their own bodies without judgement. that does not extend to 1000 year old loli dragons designed by and for men to get their nasty rocks off.
- "wHaT iF sHe ChOsE tO wEaR iT????????" she's not fucking real you drooling bottomfeeder, she can't decide anything because she's a fictional construct!!!! she's a bunch of pixels!!!! she has no agency!!!!
- "men are sexualised too" call me when we get dick physics in video games, then we'll talk about male sexualisation.
- "vote with your wallet" gee it's almost like this is an epidemic in gaming and finding games in the genre we like, with gameplay we like, a story we like, characters we like, and no bullshit designs anywhere to be found is a fucking sisyphean task. fucking great games have this problem. skyrim? dragon age origins? boob armour. boob armour everywhere. if we voted with our wallets we wouldn't be able to play fucking anything
- "my wife/girlfriend/sister/daughter/gardener/friend's cousin's sister-in-law's mother's dog's walker's chemist doesn't think it's sexist!" then she can come on here and make an account and speak for her own damn self, can't she? assuming she actually exists, of course
- "lmao typical prudish americans, in MY sexually liberated country we don't care about these things!!" i'm not american. a vast proportion of the women in this thread are not american. this is a universal problem
- "you don't speak for all women!!!!11!1!" neither do you. now what?
If mods feel like I've missed anything, feel free to add to this post.
There's something extra going on here. Because it's not just enough to explain sexism to women, but you have to have an ego large enough to assume that your take is more important than the previous two hundred pages of discussion, and so astute that nobody else would have brought it up.
Like OMG here let me bow to you. Bow to your greatness. Thank you for bestowing this rare knowledge upon us feeble folk.
Bea is neat but she's like 4'6" and probably qualifies as a straw weight (i.e. the lightest weight classification possible in MMA). I like her a lot but I can't help but feel like she's still pretty moe-fied when her proportions are so infantalized. I'd be able to respect her design more if she had some actual bulk.
I have a bit of a feeling that some devs are still biased to ladies with muscle toned arms and some sort of rooted idea that they still need to be petite even when their making them strong.
In bea's concept art
She's no zarya but i'd save that for a rock gym leader
You didn't have to read 200 pages to start with. You could literally have just read a handful. 5, 10, 20 so you don't come off as a prat who from the start informs us that you're already uninterested in making the slightest effort to listen to the arguments in the first place.
Beyond that why do we have to focus on consumers? Maintaining the status quo is a two way street. And this is without mentioning that people who make media aren't isolated from the media they work in and are in fact also consumers of it anyway.
Not only does it require consumers but it requires creators who aren't actually choosing the status quo because of market research but because just like yourself, they're ignorant and/or completely uninterested in educating themselves or doing more. Oscars So White was a movement directed at the people making films because they used the same bullshit rationalizations of market research, focus tests, etc. to eschew any changing and in the wake of it, Black Panther ended up as one of the MCU's biggest properties. The status quo isn't reinforced by numbers but by behavior.
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Read through this entire OT2. I knew female character sexualization was bad in gaming, but I didn't realize the full scope of how toxic males gamer can be until going through the posts here. I don't really use social media or read comments and only hop into era threads that peak my curiosity/interest, so I was missing out on the worst on it.
It makes me feel ashamed to be a male gamer. Gaming is supposed to be having fun, not attacking other people because they have different opinions then you. I have new found respect for anyone who has to put up with that kind of toxic behavior at all.
It makes me feel ashamed to be a male gamer. Gaming is supposed to be having fun, not attacking other people because they have different opinions then you. I have new found respect for anyone who has to put up with that kind of toxic behavior at all.
In bea's concept art
She's no zarya but i'd save that for a rock gym leader
While there is levels between Bea and Zarya, I don't think someone practicing karate has to be particularly buff either. On the other hand, they do make male practitioners of the martial arts more buff in the games, so some gender stereotyping is definitely at play.
I don't like Zarya, I think having to be super buff and manly to be fit is a lamer stereotype.
Lamer than what exactly though? It's not unreasonable to ask for Bea to have a semblance of muscle definition on her arms as a martial artist, I don't think. Like I said, there is levels between Bea and Zarya. No one is asking for the former to look like the latter.
Her feet have more definition than her arms....they also have more detail than her face so my eyes are just drawn to her feet...In bea's concept art
She's no zarya but i'd save that for a rock gym leader
Let's make the comparison because it's kinda funny haha:
Female Fighting-type trainers:
Male Fighting-type trainers:
Basically, they're scared of giving female martial artists some muscles because this would make the female characters less cute, I suppose?
I don't ask that they HAVE TO be as buff as Bruno or Chuck (and why not, even? There aren't many buff women in the series, or even any?), Brawly (third male trainer picture) for example is not a mountain of muscles but you can still notice that he doesn't have twig arms. Even if Bea does have some abs, I mean, you can still see that they focused more on the "cute" side.
Any time I see a female martial artist in a video game or an anime having q-tips for limbs, those characters aren't believable to me lol
OP
OP
I feel the same about those using huge melee weapons too, when they are swinging a weapon almost as big as they are, keeping it high with crashing impacts and endless huge arcs, but with no visible muscle tone or core strength.Let's make the comparison because it's kinda funny haha:
Female Fighting-type trainers:
Male Fighting-type trainers:
Basically, they're scared of giving female martial artists some muscles because this would make the female characters less cute, I suppose?
I don't ask that they HAVE TO be as buff as Bruno or Chuck (and why not, even? There aren't many buff women in the series, or even any?), Brawly (third male trainer picture) for example is not a mountain of muscles but you can still notice that he doesn't have twig arms. Even if Bea does have some abs, I mean, you can still see that they focused more on the "cute" side.
Any time I see a female martial artist in a video game or an anime having q-tips for limbs, those characters aren't believable to me lol
Here we go, a rendition of Bea without twigs for limbs:
Source: https://twitter.com/Cessa_sama/status/1148637944728547328
Still has a pinched waist and still too short (look at that head:body size ratio, lol), but still an improvement in my view.
Source: https://twitter.com/Cessa_sama/status/1148637944728547328
Still has a pinched waist and still too short (look at that head:body size ratio, lol), but still an improvement in my view.
If it makes you feel any better, her weightlifter skin, aka her best tier skin, shows her being buff while still feminine.
If it makes you feel any better, her weightlifter skin, aka her best tier skin, shows her being buff while still feminine.
I am not sure others will agree with me on this, but imo this idea that a man has to be 'masculine' and a woman 'feminine' is one of the things we as society need to do away with. A man still is a man if he loves to watch romance movies, and a woman still is a woman if she's buff. Certain looks and behavior shouldn't be deemed exclusive to either sex. Everyone should be free to be what makes them happy.
For clarity. Yes, this poster does.
That Quiet explanation, woof...that ain't it chief, especially as it's factually wrong.
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