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Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
There's also Freya... and Lezard... and Brahms... and Jelanda... you're being really selective about what you are and aren't including. Many characters have interactions throughout the story after they become Einherjar, though not necessarily while they are in the party (though even there in some cases they do). Some threads are unresolved, but that can be said about any story, so that's not an indictment of Valkyrie Profile. Badrach's probably the most significant of those and is somewhat odd, given the closeness to Jelanda's story, but given the way the game is structured they probably couldn't guarantee the characters would actually be in contact with one another (i.e. sending them to Valhalla) so that's likely why some of those connections didn't happen.

You should probably also keep in mind that unlike the Persona series, most of these characters are adults, many of them are warriors, and they understand they are going into a war. Wars generally don't have as much talking when the actual war is occurring (not that I don't appreciate the colorful lines during Purify Weird Soul). I think there's a shared understanding between these characters that they're to fight (hell, many of them say as much).

As for characters in P3 being thralls, I feel like you're missing the giant part of the game where you are basically creating a harem.
[FAQ010] What does it mean by "she may go jealous if I see other girls?"~~~~~~~

In FES, some social links will become your lovers. These are Yuko, Chihiro,
Yukari, Mitsuru, and Fuuka. Once they reach a certain level, you?ll see a
message saying that they will get jealous if you see other of the five girls
(Maiko, the bookstore owner?s wife, and Aegis are not considered here).


The system does allows a little bit of cheating.

According to the JPN complete guide. All reversible females will go reverse if:
1) you didn't see them for 60 days (for guys it has become 90 days)
2) you double booked and ended up cancel on her
3) in a certain occasions, you picked a wrong answer during social link
conversation


After you have reached a special relationship with a girl, say, Yukari. You are
supposed to see her within another 60 days. However, if you see other girls
(Fuuka, Yuko, Mitsuru, Chihiro, regardless of rank), the time limit drop by 15
days each meeting. Which means, if you see another girls once, then you'll have
to see Yukari within 45 days (or 45 - days passed if you're being exact). If you
have met two girls, the it drops to 30 days. If it's three, then it becomes 15
days. So, three cheatings is the maximum you can go. And the round one max links
guide should not cause you any trouble.
Like, this is the creepiest shit.

And look, I'm not saying the characters take no independent actions, but it's clearly not what they decided to take as the "lesson" from the game when they were creating P4 and P5. I say they're thralls because of the weird stuff above, and because the stuff you're talking about, while part of the story, isn't the thrust of the game (which is ironic).

I got to be honest, I picked up the game when it was portable so like for the longest a lot of this shit passed me by because I played the female protagonist route. It really sucks in hindsight.

EDIT: Also, I'd really like to see the P3 FeMC on a console with her own "answer" epilogue.
 

Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,254
And this is mainly why I take umbrage at the notion that the game is actually better at character agency; they all may have colorful pasts, but after the moment they meet the main character, all their agency seems to stop as dead as their body until you send them away.
It seems more apt to compare a non playable S-Link to a random Einherjar in terms of agency impact. They serve much the same purpose of delivering their short story to its conclusion.

Not to make a statement of the quality of characters but rather their relevant parallels.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,644
Brazil
Speaking of which: with the global release of the Valkyrie Profile gacha right around the corner, we'll have a fun time discussing redesigns yet again.

My favorite part about how badly this is designed is that I SERIOUSLY don't know which boob has armor and which does not since it not only renders both boobs the same way but also uses both blue and brown for cloth and armor.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,276
Freya, Lezard and Brahms are bonus characters for a non-story, after-game dungeon. Are we actually counting that in a discussion about the game's narrative? (not to mention that Lezard's whole motivation is all-Lenneth, anyway).
Freya and Lezard, at the very least, are part of the story at pretty critical moments. For admittedly kinda weird (and in Lezard's case, creepy) reasons, but they do take actions. Brahms is much more part of the extra dungeon, but even he has a (admittedly kinda hokey) arc there (much like Margaret as a bonus boss in P3P - I dunno if I'd really count Iseria even though she's the final boss).

And come one, "they are at war" is a cop out. There are many stories in various media that manage to get interpersonal resolution and character growth in the midst of war. Heck, Lenneth's personal arc is like the most melodramatic thing and she's an integral part to the war effort!
I mean, most characters that are given arcs in most war games, once they join, tend to be as Aexact says. Effectively, a non-playable S-link. And Valkyrie Profile is a game structured and told in a very non-standard fashion. It's really the only game I can think of that's structured like it is. So admittedly, it's hard to compare it to anything.

As for Lenneth, she's the protagonist so Lenneth's personal arc is not exactly irregular?

I think we'll agree to disagree and simply argue that what Valkyrie Profile does with its characters is wholly different from what Persona 3 does with its characters, at least as they are involved with the story directly.
 

Hypron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,059
NZ
If these things were sex positive, female characters would be allowed to enter into relationships with male characters that aren't the player's avatar.

They would also actually, you know, have sex instead of just wearing creepy costumes and being leered at by the camera like in so many Japanese games (and many western ones too).

Like, I always find it funny that people talk about sexual objectification without relationships (sexual or otherwise) as being sex positive...
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Number 1 reason why I ALWAYS say "objectification" when people say "sexualized"

If a the sims character has more sex than you than you are not sexualized

I mean...on that note Pokemon are more sexualized than most objectifying anime girls

...granted the internet is awash with pokemon porn so this isn't the best example but...
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,644
Brazil
I mean...on that note Pokemon are more sexualized than most objectifying anime girls

...granted the internet is awash with pokemon porn so this isn't the best example but...

Yeah I did think of writing pokemon but breeding is such an integral mechanic and Dittos are such sex machines that I fastly changed to The Sims

...which have more sex than most non hentai dating sim protagonists.
 
Jan 16, 2018
425
Hope's Peak Academy
They are, which is why it makes it very very very annoying for me to look for artwork of my favorite Gen III Pokemon (Gardevoir)

...no bonus points in guessing which pokemon is my all time favorite, though.
Yeah, that's what you're going to get with the more Anthro mons
  • Gardevior (Especially Gardevoir because it's not really animal-like, rather like an alien)
  • Lopunny
  • Salazzle
  • Insert any future and past 'mons that are already bipedial and with a slime feminine body
 
Nov 28, 2017
735
Sweden
f9fpbgm3n8sy.jpg
 

Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,038
It seems more apt to compare a non playable S-Link to a random Einherjar in terms of agency impact. They serve much the same purpose of delivering their short story to its conclusion.

Not to make a statement of the quality of characters but rather their relevant parallels.
But isn't the conversation about how dependent the characters are on the protagonists? I think it's not really fair to prop up things that happen even before these people even meet the protagonists as examples of agency. And it's not like many of them even have proper story arc and resolution to begin with.
Aelia was in the middle of investigating her friend's betrayal when she's just randomly captured and tortured to death. Yumei got brokenhearted upon finding out that her father is dead and then... died in a whirlpool. Grey was on a quest to atone and then just withered away.
They're really not that different when compared to a number of S-link people who had their own hopes and dreams and were striving to reach it, but got stuck in a rut. The difference is they then met the MC and overcome those rut, albeit perhaps with heavy MC's involvement. Whereas the Einherjars died and practically just became Lenneth's war tools.

That's why I insist that we take a look instead at the story-critical characters, and what agency they actually have when the main character is around. With those, I'm arguing that even if you took away all their S-links, all the playable members still have some meat to their characters. Whereas taking away their death stories reduces the story-critical Einherjars to Lenneth-supporters.

I mean, most characters that are given arcs in most war games, once they join, tend to be as Aexact says. Effectively, a non-playable S-link. And Valkyrie Profile is a game structured and told in a very non-standard fashion. It's really the only game I can think of that's structured like it is. So admittedly, it's hard to compare it to anything.
I think the gold standard is Suikoden games, where the majority of the non critical characters are shown to pursue their own goals before joining, then join out of convenience, and then go to keep on their quests after the game ended. And a lot of critical characters also join while having their own agenda and constantly strive to fulfill them on their own even without the MC knowing.

That's what I feel actually agency look like, and not Gandar's "you better watch your back, Valkyrie, because I'm not loyal to the gods wait actually I never do anything of note again."

Yar, sorry for ragging on this so much. I guess I'm just kinda disappointed at VP promising so much and delivering so little on its characters, even when I nevertheless think what's in there is beautiful.
 
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Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,254
But isn't the conversation about how dependent the characters are on the protagonists? I think it's not really fair to prop up things that happen even before these people even meet the protagonists as examples of agency. And it's not like many of them even have proper story arc and resolution to begin with.

They're really not that different when compared to a number of S-link people who had their own hopes and dreams and were striving to reach it, but got stuck in a rut. The difference is they then met the MC and overcome those rut, albeit perhaps with heavy MC's involvement. Whereas the Einherjars died and practically just became Lenneth's war tools.

That's why I insist that we take a look instead at the story-critical characters, and what agency they actually have when the main character is around. I suppose what I'm saying is even if you took away all their S-links, all the playable members still have some meat to their characters. Whereas taking away their death stories reduces the story-critical Einherjars to Lenneth-supporters.
Ah, I was indeed talking about characters in relation to the protagonist. And a character's history before meeting the main character seems like a valid way to view the character in that showing what existed before allows them to exist outside of the protagonist's sphere of influence. Persona characters also benefit from their backstories.

In terms of resolving a story, I haven't played the game in a while but I felt Einherjar are all about the events leading up to their deaths. An examination of their lives and the choices that led to dying. Becoming Lenneth's "war tools" is an almost insignificant part of their story as the game hardly dwells on it aside from randomly generated messages of what Einherjar sent to Odin are doing. What matters is how they lived and how they died and sometimes the message will be that their death was meaningless, that on the mortal plane they are unable to affect change. It's the kind of world Valkyrie Profile creates and that's fine. Persona is more conventional in resolving everyone's problems neatly in the course of the story but Valkyrie Profile, the meaninglessness and hopelessness were by design too. ... Maybe not the weird out there elements but leaving some of the character's problems "unresolved" is just part of the story about how they died.

I think that's ... a strange stance to view Valkyrie Profile in, to discount the death scenes. The death scenes compose the lion's share of the game's presentation and are the standout element.
 
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Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,038
Ah, I was indeed talking about characters in relation to the protagonist. And a character's history before meeting the main character seems like a valid way to view the character in that showing what existed before allows them to exist outside of the protagonist's sphere of influence.

In terms of resolving a story, I haven't played the game in a while but I felt Einherjar are all about the events leading up to their deaths. An examination of their lives and the choices that led to dying. Becoming Lenneth's "war tools" is an almost insignificant part of their story as the game hardly dwells on it aside from randomly generated messages of what Einherjar sent to Odin are doing. What matters is how they lived and how they died and sometimes the message will be that their death was meaningless, that on the mortal plane they are unable to affect change. It's the kind of world Valkyrie Profile creates and that's fine. Persona is more conventional in resolving everyone's problems neatly in the course of the story but Valkyrie Profile, the meaninglessness and hopelessness were by design too. ... Maybe not the weird out there elements but leaving some of the character's problems "unresolved" is just part of the story about how they died.

I think that's ... a strange stance to view Valkyrie Profile in. The death scenes compose the lion's share of the game's presentation and selling point.
To be clear, I actually love Valkyrie Profile. I think what's in there is beautiful. And I'd be fine if the message is "meaninglessness and hopelessness". However, I am not convinced that that's actually it. Leaving aside the main story where
the main character practically died twice and still managed to ultimately maintain her meaningful existence, rebel against her role as a tool of war and go on to become the Goddess of Creation through sheer power of effort and love, I also feel that a lot of these death lack finality. As I said, Gandar explicitly threatened to do some shenanigans. Then there's Grey who agreed to become an Einherjar as a way to atone his sins. Llewelyn who wonder if he could be a braver person in death. Yumei whose death is a part of a divine will to reunite her with her parents. These are what I meant by the game promising too much. They frame death not as final but rather a new beginning. They set more things to come and they simply don't.

And it's not like the Einherjars actually lack the means to do things on their own, or the developers are averse on following up due to thematic reasoning or whatever, because they actually follow Lucian's story up, and Lucian has enough leeway that his actions actually become a pivotal plot point.
 
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AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
Speaking of which: with the global release of the Valkyrie Profile gacha right around the corner, we'll have a fun time discussing redesigns yet again.
Compared to some of the designs I've seen here posted of other games this one looks super tame in comparison. I'm seriously struggling here. Other than the prerequisite of zettai ryouiki by Japan law the design isn't bad?
 

Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,254
To be clear, I actually love Valkyrie Profile. I think what's in there is beautiful. And I'd be fine if the message is "meaninglessness and hopelessness". However, I am not convinced that that's actually it. Leaving aside the main story where
the main character practically died twice and still managed to ultimately maintain her meaningful existence, rebel against her role as a tool of war and go on to become the Goddess of Creation through sheer power of effort and love, I also feel that a lot of these death lack finality. As I said, Gandar explicitly threatened to do some shenanigans. Then there's Grey who agreed to become an Einherjar as a way to atone his sins. Llewelyn who wonder if he could be a braver person in death. Yumei whose death is a part of a divine will to reunite her with her parents. These are what I meant by the game promising too much. They set things up to come and they simply don't.

And it's not like the Einherjars actually lack the means to do things on their own, or the developers are averse on following up due to thematic reasoning or whatever, because they actually follow Lucian's story up, and Lucian has enough leeway that his actions actually become a pivotal plot point.
Ah. Is the issue that their stories end when they die and you wanted a follow up? I don't think I felt the same feeling of incompleteness but I understand it might be dissatisfying for something to end without accomplishing a promise.

The act of resolution can be the end of an arc rather than following through showing that resolution.
 

Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,038
Ah. Is the issue that their stories end when they die and you wanted a follow up? I don't think I felt the same feeling of incompleteness but I understand it might be dissatisfying for something to end without accomplishing a promise.

The act of resolution can be the end of an arc rather than following through showing that resolution.
Yar, if Einherjars are like.., I dunno, essence of souls who have little freedom apart for the things they're ordained for, then I can more easily accept that their death is final; that is their story and that's that for better of worse. But
Lucian can just sneak around and attempt to do his things secretly. Arngrim and Mystina banter like normal people and straight up rebel against the active Valkyrie. That made me go "hey what about all these other characters who explicitly state that they want to finish their business, even in death? What about all these other characters who actually have complicated relationships with each other? Why didn't you afford them what you afford Lucian?"
 

Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,254
Yar, if Einherjars are like.., I dunno, essence of souls who have little freedom apart for the things they're ordained for, then I can more easily accept that their death is final; that is their story and that's that for better of worse. But
Lucian can just sneak around and attempt to do his things secretly. Arngrim and Mystina banter like normal people and straight up rebel against the active Valkyrie. That made me go "hey what about all these other characters who explicitly promise they'd do something, even in death? What about all these other characters who actually have complicated relationships with each other? Why didn't you afford them what you afford Lucian?"
Because they're side characters with about as much relevance as a Fire Emblem unit or a non playable SLink I suppose. There wasn't intended to be that much expectation on them.
 

Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,038
Because they're side characters with about as much relevance as a Fire Emblem unit or a non playable SLink I suppose. There wasn't intended to be that much expectation on them.
Apart from how even side characters ins some RPGs can have complete, super-involved sidequests with passing relevance to the main story, this goes back to my main point that the only party members who are actually afforded "relevance" seem to be those whose quests completely revolve around the main character.
 
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Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,254
Apart from how even side characters ins some RPGs can have complete, super-involved sidequests with passing relevance to the main story, this goes back to my main point that the only party members who are actually afforded "relevance" seem to be those whose quests completely revolve around the main character.
I feel this is an expectation of what you wanted from Valkyrie Profile that isn't the intent of the game? Yes, some games have sidequests for their main characters tied to the main plot but the scope of the characters in Valkyrie Profile were the events that led to them becoming Einherjar. Not specifically how they relate to Lenneth but how they lived and the circumstances of their death.

In how their relevance is tied to Lenneth, that's an interesting aspect (if somewhat unfortunate for one of the few female main characters) because as a protagonist, Lenneth has very little agency. The way things unfold are macinations of others around her.

... I mean, that means it dodged the protagonist power fantasy aspect that's starting to bug me about Persona Links (like, you gotta personally save the P5 Confidents and they are aware and grateful and indebted) though it has its separate issues.
 

caff!!!

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,029
They would also actually, you know, have sex instead of just wearing creepy costumes and being leered at by the camera like in so many Japanese games (and many western ones too).

Like, I always find it funny that people talk about sexual objectification without relationships (sexual or otherwise) as being sex positive...
You know you got the good stuff when the sex actually has this thing called foreplay involved and is with characters with actual character and personality.
you'll be amazed
 

Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,038
I feel this is an expectation of what you wanted from Valkyrie Profile that isn't the intent of the game? Yes, some games have sidequests for their main characters tied to the main plot but the scope of the characters in Valkyrie Profile were the events that led to them becoming Einherjar. Not specifically how they relate to Lenneth but how they lived and the circumstances of their death.
Well yeah, but the game set that expectations up! "Oh Kashell's story is tied with Grey's and Aelia's. Oh I can actually recruit both of them too! All of them died while harboring so many questions and unfinished business! What would happen when they finally reunite!?" *nothing happens*

Like I said, though, I love what we got just fine. It just a bit of a bummer.

Now about Lenneth, that's actually an interesting thing. Her character dynamics actually closer to what you can find in numerous otome games, where the protagonist has relatively vague drive or goal, is generally special by merely existing and is unwittingly thrust into intrigues with people who covet her or fuss over her.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,276
Well yeah, but the game set that expectations up! "Oh Kashell's story is tied with Grey's and Aelia's. Oh I can actually recruit both of them too! All of them died while harboring so many questions and unfinished business! What would happen when they finally reunite!?" *nothing happens*

Like I said, though, I love what we got just fine. It just a bit of a bummer.
I think, as Aexact says, you're projecting more than was the intent. The stories are about how they lived. Their deaths, even in the expanded universe, are typically put forward as being rather senseless. Were it not for Lenneth, they would have no further story, and the tale would never be told. That brutality both fits the myths the game is drawing from as well as the story within the game itself. Lenneth mentions the difference between herself and a death god at the beginning when speaking with Arngrim as a point of reference. She provides something different than simply the end of existence, but she's clearly indicating that it's not the same thing as being alive.
Now about Lenneth, that's actually an interesting thing. Her character dynamics actually closer to what you can find in numerous otome games, where the protagonist has relatively vague drive or goal, is generally special by merely existing and is unwittingly thrust into intrigues with people who covet her or fuss over her.
I think the protagonist has a really clear drive and goal. It's a mission literally given to the player and Lenneth within the first few minutes of the game and that then transfers into the main play state of the game. Lenneth is never as passive an actor as protagonists in typical otome games. She is special by existing, as are all the Valkyries, but her purpose is much less ad hoc than that of otome games. Lenneth's purpose in the war is clear from the time you start the game, it changes as you learn more about the world and begin to make decisions that affect your relationships within it.

Finally, once again I do think it's worth restating that no story is without its loose ends. And I think stories that try to do so honestly lack focus. An example might be Lord of the Rings - we get resolution for some important characters, but the story doesn't linger on every single character and attempt to make sure you know what happened to all of them after all is said and done.
 
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Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
iuGBu14.png


Screenshot by https://twitter.com/9_volt_/status/1097886168992104448

I vote to have a "boner culture" reference in our next OT title

...Jesus fucking Christ. Boner Culture!?! How utterly pathetic. This is what pisses me off about these assholes. It's not enough that they get their panty fighters and sexualized characters. ANY woman character MUST be objectified for them. Like...I'm asexual so maybe I truly don't understand but is it really THAT hard to imagine her naked? Do you really need to have it shown in front of you? Like is there no fucking imagination in these brain dead garbage?

Boner Culture Jesus Christ.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,911
Oct 25, 2017
2,947
I can't help but hear "boner culture" and think of it as just another name for virginity.

DISCLAIMER: Virginity is OK, and there is no shame in it.
 
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