That's how a lot of discussions go when it's about minorities. Either the discussion dies quickly due to lack of interest, or you keep seeing the same few arguments repeatedly (when it comes to homossexual characters, I see a lot of "too in my face" and "having more than x homossexual characters in this is over representation"). And people thinking most of Era users care about these issues are overestimating how much of a bubble this community is.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)
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That's how a lot of discussions go when it's about minorities. Either the discussion dies quickly due to lack of interest, or you keep seeing the same few arguments repeatedly (when it comes to homossexual characters, I see a lot of "too in my face" and "having more than x homossexual characters in this is over representation"). And people thinking most of Era users care about these issues are overestimating how much of a bubble this community is.
Along with "my black friend is totally cool with me saying racial slurs", "my girlfriend is totally cool with female characters fighting in their undies" is one of my least favorite "cards" people like to play here and on other websites.
One key points which seems to be missing in these kind of debates is how much people see what they want to see in those instances. That's not to say any viewpoint is wrong or you can't have a quantitative analysis of how some messages are perceived, but in the specific case of Bayonetta, I see myself a lot of ambiguity and as such can totally understand how some people would lean one way or the other (extremely simplified version, her being a strong woman "owning her body" vs her being just another "male gaze character").
If anything, I think we can agree her "ambiguity" raises some interesting questions.
I call bullshit on those cause it just a way to limit your view on the problem.
I agree that she's the best and most polarizing case. She's not nearly as bad as some and certainly at least Bayonetta has "the nerve" to wear it on a sleeve than devs sneaking that shit in (like an ass-shot angle on an other demure character).
And I don't underestimate that some in the LGBT community or fashion-forward folk or even some women can find her empowering.... but I dunno....I personally also highly doubt that's what the devs had in mind when they made her; she's indeed just a sex-positive witch... but when men create a sex-positive female the results feel way different than when/if a woman writes the same thing. And that's the problem to me.
It's also strange how often being "sexual" becomes a "character trait" in certain games. There's a time and place for it, but some female characters seem more likely to have that switch on.
It's hard not to love Bayo, the games are fun and her personality is a blast... but elements of her design are super dubious
I think it's okay to have your porny wank-bait characters like Bayonetta. As far as those sort of characters go she's better than most by virtue of being of age.
The problem is pretending she's anything more than that. Or that she isnt that. Because she is. And from the developers various commentary through tweets and interviews she clearly isn't meant to be anything more than that.
The problem is pretending she's anything more than that. Or that she isnt that. Because she is. And from the developers various commentary through tweets and interviews she clearly isn't meant to be anything more than that.
While that's where I stand myself (she's obviously designed to hit a lot of fetishes, i.e. with male gaze in sight), that wouldn't be the first time a designer intent is subverted by the audience, and I can see how other people would see her as a "sex positive" character first and foremost, no matter the original intent.
See, that's the interesting part: the part in bold almost never happens. Those sexualized, objectified, "totally sex positive you guys"... don't ever get to have sex.
"Expressing sexuality" my ass.
Yessssss
Kassandra is great. She is attractive and sex-positive, without being remotely objectified. It's really not that hard.
They could have made Aloy similarly, too, though they chose not too (and that's OK, but I'd be down with Aloy building romances or hook-ups in a sequel sometime too).
While I want to read this because it sounds super interesting, I'm pretty sure Melissa McCarthy is another person... :) Her name appears to be MacCoubrey.
Yup.
I can count on my hand how many times this "sex positive" character has had sex or has bee nimplied to have sex offscreen, because the amount is 0.
If she's a sex positive character she's as awful as they get. She has no development, no relatability, is completely inhuman looking and her sexuality is nothing more than pole dancing.
She is not a sex positive character. She is a stripper positive character. Which is perfectly fine, but she is what she is.
if you could do that in the base game, i'd buy it in a heartbeat! i have no interest in multiplayer though unfortunately.
Of course. But as I said, people tend to see what they want to see. And while she may not be a great "role model" for all the reasons you describe, that's still leagues ahead of shit like the Xenoblade waifus.
It's really difficult to design a sex-positive woman who owns her body and flaunts it without pandering to the male gaze - under standard beauty conventions at least, since that has historically served said gaze. Imagine a non-conventionally attractive woman who wears her sexuality and provocative attire on her sleeve. It becomes easier to associate said character with owning her body versus titillation. Even then I think it's hard, because of how common it is to see provocative character designs. I can see the argument that it casts doubt on any character designed to be sexy regardless of intent. And I think until other body types than the hourglass are accepted as beautiful, that there won't really be a right way to approach this archetype without serving the male gaze first and foremost.
I already posted an exampe of a sex-positive women in a video game in the last page here.
The question is, what would TRULY change with Bayonetta as a character if she didn't get naked while doing Wicked Weaves and summons?
Nothing, because she would be the same sassy provocative women, with the plus that she would always be 100% in control of her body and her sexuality, instead of how it is now with her getting naked when she loses/uses her power.
Of course she is still way better that the shit japanese games tends to throw to the wall, and although it's good to point that, it shouldn't also be used as a shield to deflect any criticism of the character (not saying it for you but for some of the post in the other thread)
It makes more sense when the "modest" clothing Pyra makes is literally just a one piece swimsuit and a scarf
Recall sex-positive feminist friends being into that show, so I gave it a chance...and fifteen minutes into the first episode it's playing rape for comedy...
Haha, man...
That's some "don't stan for Goblin Slayer after episode 7" mess.
It's amazing how high Trigger flew with Gurren Lagann, which had it's own set of problems with objectification, and then how far they crashed with Kill la Kill.
I mean, it's not. See Uncharted.
The problem with "sex positivity" in games is that in order for the creators to get across the idea of "sexual positivity", they overshow the hand, associating the concept with lewd clothing or weird camera angles that the actual character has no control over. "She likes sex, look at what she's wearing" which is just another thing that poison's people's perceptions of how women should act. The lion's share of games refuse to even do the easiest thing they could do to depict "sex positivity" which is women having consensual happy sex. Most of the time, the adjective of sexual positivity begins and ends with how big their boob window is, which always spurs the commentary, "see what she's wearing? She's asking for it."
Like fuck man, most games don't even TALK about sex, but they'll spend 30 combined minutes trying to shove a camera up a girl's skirt.
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Yeah I can see it both ways when it comes to Bayo. I see the intent that her getting nude is a flippant middle finger to modesty expectations, and I also see how it can take away from her character portrayal, or rather how it might detract from her perception as an empowered character. There is a need for a sex positive role model that women can relate to in games and I wouldn't say Bayo fits the bill, but she stands a lot closer than most other attempts. I also think it isn't possible for there to be a singular character that all or even most women would resonate with in that sense, there has to be a lot more of them that speak to different personalities and perspectives on sexuality and body image and there just aren't enough. Dudes have a plethora of male characters to look to that portray different takes on sex and masculinity.
I haven't played the Uncharted games. How do they approach it?
Edit: didn't see edit, reading now
The women in uncharted make their positions known. They wear clothing they either like or find appropriate to the situation, and when they want to have sex, they have sex. They don't need to wade in boob windows or miniskirts to communicate that they are in charge of their body and sexual agency.
I really think that it's not difficult at all to design a sexy sex-positive woman owning her own body. The thing is, it's not done because the same dudes that only want women in underwear to appear in games, and shriek about burkas when women wear actual clothes, these same dudes would also freak out at a character that ACTUALLY owns her sexuality. Because then it wouldn't be for him. Bayonetta isn't sexual for herself, she's very much sexual AT the player. That's the focus of her portrayal. Her "sexual ownership" (of being a character that has no ownership or will) is a smokescreen to deflect criticism.
Having her actually "own it" (ignoring that she's a character, not a real person) would make many guys very uncomfortable. See the reaction when two female characters kiss each other. Or guys angry when their harem waifu has a husbando. A female character having a non-self insert love interest shatters the guy illusion that she's there for him, primarily.
But really, all you'd have to do is have something like the witcher, just female - very few things are easier, just flip the gender. Gerald or whatever his name is sure gets to have sex with every female character that isn't hiding within 3 seconds on a tree. Bayonetta isn't even doing so with one character, male OR female. And yet people crow how she supposedly ~owns her sexuality~. Sure don't see it, all I see is SM special moves. And I'm really not fond of sexual play as an attack to kill people.
Having her actually "own it" (ignoring that she's a character, not a real person) would make many guys very uncomfortable. See the reaction when two female characters kiss each other. Or guys angry when their harem waifu has a husbando. A female character having a non-self insert love interest shatters the guy illusion that she's there for him, primarily.
But really, all you'd have to do is have something like the witcher, just female - very few things are easier, just flip the gender. Gerald or whatever his name is sure gets to have sex with every female character that isn't hiding within 3 seconds on a tree. Bayonetta isn't even doing so with one character, male OR female. And yet people crow how she supposedly ~owns her sexuality~. Sure don't see it, all I see is SM special moves. And I'm really not fond of sexual play as an attack to kill people.
But then how can she be our audience's pure waifu if she actually has sex? /s
I get the feeling that a lot of designers confuse the idea of sexual positivity with advertising sexual availability. The former just means that a character is comfortable with having sex and will exhibit traits that exemplify this. Wearing lingerie as the standard outfit does not fit this; nor does constantly shoving T&A into camera at all times. A sexually positive character may still do this, but the key is that she will do so at the appropriate time. It's not even hard for games to show this: they just have to give a character a regular outfit for most of the game and a sexually provocative outfit for more intimate moments. Allowing the character to actually have sex would help a lot as well.
Bayonetta is an example of a game that fails to see this nuance so I have a hard time seeing it as a positive example.
Yeah I see your point. Time and a place for everything.
I suppose my perspective here is limited to trying to make a lewdly designed character relatable and not firstly intended to service the male gaze. Is the solution that we have variable attire appropriate for each situation? If so then maybe it really is that simple.
Is sex as a weapon or statement in design a mistake?
Okay, that is indeed very difficult. I would really solve that by variable attire. Women wear sexy lingerie all the time, but you won't see the same women in the same lingerie shopping in the supermarket. :)
The problem is that lewdly designed female characters are going to look like they're primarily intended for the male gaze by default. There's no way of getting around that so the best recourse is to simply not have female characters display their sexuality through their clothing.
Not necessarily. However, it's going to be very hard to pull off without looking like pandering. A better question is "What are you actually trying to accomplish, and is there a better way to reach that goal?" Generally, making a character dress like a stripper all the time is the worst of these solutions, and not a whole lot can be done with such characters.
A woman doesn't have to be lewdly designed to have sexual agency. Thinking that they need to is already approaching it from a male perspective.
But that's why you make lewdly designed characters. For the sexual gaze of the user, which is commonly (or archetypally) male. There is no other reason and it rarely serves any other purpose. It's why people get so mad when those designs start penetrating into games that otherwise hadn't dabbled into that stuff.
I mean, it's a joke. Like, a haha joke.
Like, I like Bayo a lot, those games are really good, but actual statement of Bayo fighting losing clothing as she gets stronger, opening portals to hell and stripping naked, pole dancing on enemies, riding enemies bareback, etc etc etc....it's supposed to be funny. Now people can latch onto those concepts and find them empowering and uplifting, you can still like Bayo's sass and her demeanor, but the intention for all of Bayo's antics is to be stunting on these enemies in such a way where you're supposed to be laughing all the while.
Whether you think the joke is good or not is subjective, but that's what it is, it's funny hahas.
When the rubber hits the road in Bayonetta and things get dire, all of that stuff goes out the window. Bayo gets serious, the jokes stop, the nudity usually stops, and the dramatic stress intensifies. And when she grabs the reigns on the situation, the jokes start coming back in, things get over the top again, the nudity comes back, you're supposed to pump your fist and go "YEAH!" as she sheds clothing to torture your enemies.
Watching people take "weaponized sexuality" seriously is weird. And no, nothing would be lost if she stopped stripping entirely or stripped down to a bikini or an undersuit because they already are sacrificing that stuff when you use the unlockable outfits or some of the extra weapons. But will they get rid of it or change it? No.
Because that ruins the joke. Platinum doesn't want Bayo to be Dante. Platinum wants Bayo to be a character who tells a joke and the punchline is her stripping down. Again, how that lands is subjective, but that's what it is.
I mean you joke....but that's literally the argument people use.
When K-On was super popular, you'd hear shit like that all the time and it's just...super cringy.
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Thiiiiis
As Crossing Eden said, ask yourself why you are making a "lewdly designed character" to begin with and why your mind defaults to making her "lewdly designed" if your intent is to personify sexual agency. Assuming a "default skin" or costume or whatever like most video game characters tend to be. Is your character an actual sex worker or stripper and the story revolves around that to justify this default design? Probably not (but if she were -- OK, sure).
Is your character an adventurer, detective/officer, soldier/mercenary, investigative journalist, a sorceress, a cleric, a travelling merchant, a hunter, or whatever? Then why is she "lewdly designed"? If your intent is to write a character who is those things but is also seductive, sex-positive, and sexually active in the story, then yes, you could have her dress lewdly (or not at all) in those scenes where it would make sense.
Basically, ask yourself how you'd create a similar male character. Note how sexually active/empowered male characters, like Nathan Drake, Geralt, Snake/Big Boss, etc. don't wander the world wearing nothing but short shorts with the camera focused longingly on their butts. Even Kratos, despite being shirtless, isn't sexualized; his outfit is the "Spartan warrior look", not a "lewd" design.
There is zero reason why a female character can't be like Geralt; sexually active and empowered yet somehow dressed in proper attire for her job. That's why we keep saying "it's not hard". Because tons of such male characters already exist and would you look at it, they aren't "lewdly designed".
Really couldn't have said it better. You said what my entire post tried to say with two sentences lol
I'm not budging from my hot-take that the people involved with these things have little to no experience with women/sex, and that's why they struggle to portray them.
Diversity in the work force would be a massive help, obviously. Unfortunately, the work culture is really fucking good at ostracising women.
Hell, an even hotter take is that the terrible working conditions of both video games and anime/manga actively repel anyone with a shred of empathy, whilst simultaneously nurturing problematic and sociopathic mindsets.
It's hard to engage in the real world when your job demands you sit at a desk working 10+ hours a day.
I don't think there's a problem with characters being sexually forward (the player often has this option already in RPGs where relationship and speech mechanics are a thing), using their physical attractiveness as an asset to accomplish their goals (spies and courtiers have done this for thousands of years, although it has its own problems when guys think James Bond is a wonderful role model for male-female interaction) or being designed to be sexy (who doesn't like attractive characters). The problem is when it moves into 'sexualised' and the character has nothing else (fighting monsters in the snow in a bikini), when the entire female cast is treated as sexualised by default (three women with the same body shape fighting monsters in the snow in a bikini), and that the flirtatious poses and camera glued to their tits and arse are also a default (woman's victory pose after killing monster in the snow is leaning forward in her bikini to show off her tits while blowing a kiss).
So much of this could be handled with a little understanding of restraint, diversity and nuance. Or treating women like people. Especially in worlds where the female cast are just as likely to be competent hunters, travellers, soldiers, adventurers etc. Putting adventurers in high heels and panties in woods, caves and alien battlefields will never not be ridiculous, any adventurer can be attractive and flirtatious and dressed to impress at play with their desired lover, while still remembering a nice comfy pair of boots and trousers is probably better than their finest lingerie when heading off into the wilderness.
It doesn't make them less attractive to be dressed for the occasion, or to not have a costume watchword of 'titillation' when looking for clues in an assassin-and-rat-infested sewer. Nothing less attractive than half the party lacerated to hell after trying to cross the bramble sea in their space stripper costumes. That's why Geralt, Drake and a dozen other male leads all wear fairly comfortable looking travelling gear, so they don't look completely ridiculous in a forest, a temple, a pub, a cave, etc. They look attractive and practical, the clothes they wear say 'this is well-worn all-purpose kit that suits what I do 90% of the time', but wearing sensible kit doesn't stop them either turning on the charm or changing/removing outfit when needed.
One of the reasons I like Dragon Quest is that there's at least a 50% chance that a female character (and particularly the younger ones) looks dressed for questing after dragons. There's still issues with some of them (largely documented already here) but it's better in that sense than many .
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I'd 100% agree with that, especially after the Riot/Rockstar/Telltale interviews.
There is a large subsection of people working in games who want things to be like 1950's hollywood, where they can snap their fingers and do cocaine and screw a hooker in the bathroom, and absolutely whine when they are told "we don't do that anymore. That's not where we're at as a society".
Persephone have you seen the animu Nick Valentine mod on Nexus?
It's a hilarious breath of fresh air amongst the usual gun mods or titty outfits.
It's a hilarious breath of fresh air amongst the usual gun mods or titty outfits.
I am super ok with female sexualization. I enjoy looking at erotic armorkinis, it's a pleasure of mine, and I support developers who makes games with such armors, I guess I am part of the target market.
But I agree that there isn't enough male sexualization. Barely a couple of games show bulges or male genitalia, even less has bulge physics. It would be great that there would be more male sexualization; I'd totally support that too. The tumblr page where you took the Female Armor bingo has an incredible collection of sexualized male armors, I feel really sad that I can't play (or see) more like these on games and media.
I also have to mention, that don't get me wrong, I am not asking for every game to be sexualized. After all, game companies makes games for a wide amount of markets. I guess my argument about the subject is that companies decide to appeal to certain markets more than others, and while that doesn't mean only the target market can enjoy that game, we must be tolerant about it. After all, I am sure there are games aimed at women too (where men can enjoy it if they're tolerant enough. I personally enjoy this Sailor Moon game I found on Google Play Store).
That being said, my solution to the issue is:
But I agree that there isn't enough male sexualization. Barely a couple of games show bulges or male genitalia, even less has bulge physics. It would be great that there would be more male sexualization; I'd totally support that too. The tumblr page where you took the Female Armor bingo has an incredible collection of sexualized male armors, I feel really sad that I can't play (or see) more like these on games and media.
I also have to mention, that don't get me wrong, I am not asking for every game to be sexualized. After all, game companies makes games for a wide amount of markets. I guess my argument about the subject is that companies decide to appeal to certain markets more than others, and while that doesn't mean only the target market can enjoy that game, we must be tolerant about it. After all, I am sure there are games aimed at women too (where men can enjoy it if they're tolerant enough. I personally enjoy this Sailor Moon game I found on Google Play Store).
That being said, my solution to the issue is:
- Sexualize men and women on the same level. If there is a bikini armor for women, men should be able to wear it too. This can be an issue with games where the player can only play as one gender, but I hope that there would be enough games from both with the same amount of sexualization.
- If you find a game that doesn't suit you well, accept that maybe, you aren't the target market. If one or two things of the game aren't of your liking, be more tolerant and try to enjoy the game regardless. Consider that you may not be the only one feeling like that, and those who are comfortable by playing this game may have to be like you when they play the next one.
Are you ok with *looks at clock* 20 years of only male objectification so we can reach the same level ?
Women and girls being sexualized does not just occur in niche games where we are not apart of the target market. It happens in big budget games aimed at the mass market.
That's hardly a solution when the crux of the problem is how endemic the way female character designs are sexualised is. 'Play something else' is a crap argument when the genres you like are infested with it. You're suggesting that it's a situation where people who like sexualised outfits are hard done by with some games, and people that don't are hard done by with others. That 'both sides' stuff doesn't work when 'I like objectified titty designs' and 'stop treating half the cast like pieces of meat' don't exactly carry equal weight. Try reading the OP, or at least skim the thread to understand what the common themes in the criticism of the examples given are getting at and why that it's so common is a problem rather than an simple aesthetic preference.
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I know you probably didn't read through the thread as it's pretty long at this point but essentially telling people to buy something else isn't really the answer and we have had many many posts of people coming in saying the same thing. I'm not totally against what you are saying. Games like Senran Kagura are pretty blatant about what they are about and I am not the target audience. That's fine, I don't buy them and they don't bother me hugely for their existance. I am however the target audience for JRPGs. I've been playing them for 25+ years. I can even deal with some of the outlandish designs in some case but bullshit like Cindy in her hooker mechanic outfit, pervy camera angles and thong tanlines are just so pointless and don't even fit in with the rest of the game. It's that kind of portrayal in games we are mostly commenting about.
I am not ok with that, because revenge is never a solution, balance is the only option. Creators should sexualize more males and more often in order to make it the norm, but that doesn't mean we should remove the actual sexualization of females; they should be the norm too. That's my point.
Well, since you don't gave me any examples I will speak generally, by saying that these big budget games also aim to a specific market, who are big indeed, but specified to those who can enjoy such sexualization.
That's a bit insulting but yeah, that's the point. I mean, I am very tolerant too, and I play lots of games that aren't aimed at me, because while there are stuff that I don't like, I take the good parts of them and enjoy the ride.
My point is not to 'play something else' but more of 'understand that while the game wasn't made specifically for you, you can still have fun playing it'.
I read the OP. I can't argue with everything the OP says, but I will argue that this wouldn't be an issue if there were more sexualized males. It would stop some people to find it unfair, and would promote the same ideas on both genders. I think we should break the stigma that male sexualization is forbidden.
EDIT: English isn't my native language and I missed an "n't" at some point. Sorries.
Yes, it would still be an issue, as to sexualise men to the same extent would mean making it endemic, and promoting the idea that sexualising everyone regardless of context, role, agency, age etc is silly. A huge chunk of the sexualisation (as opposed to sexiness) is completely ridiculous, as is the entirety of the objectification, and I don't think adding more sexualised and objectified guys with perv-o-cams hanging around them 'for balance, breaking the taboo', would address the stupidity of adventurers in combat lingerie, cameras zooming up their arse and boobplate-armoured knights with costumes with arrows pointing to their genitals. How about we have all characters offered the variety of cast roles that the male ones are now first, establishing a baseline where characters can be anything (even guys being sexualised as part of a more diverse range), rather than double up on the crazy by having a large percentage of guys being automatically objectified or sexualised or both by default to match the women.
I find it hard to have fun with a game if the thing I dislike the most about it is the design, art direction and animation of half of it's lead cast members (although Rex's clunky trousers in XB2 makes that a full 100%!).
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What is the consensus on Corrin design in Smash 4/Ultimate? Comparions between male and female Corrin:
I actually really dig that for Robin and Corrin, the female and male designs are the same, it's really good for once to actually have the same pattern for both gender, and after recently playing Smash 4 with them, they are quickly becoming one of my favorite characters of Smash.
I actually really dig that for Robin and Corrin, the female and male designs are the same, it's really good for once to actually have the same pattern for both gender, and after recently playing Smash 4 with them, they are quickly becoming one of my favorite characters of Smash.
Why do you need constant sexualization? Are you a satyr with a permanent erection? Can't you just watch some porn and have a wank?
Good for you. Personally, I'm sick to death of tolerating blatant sexism and, at worst, borderline paedophilia.
Well Geralt can have sex in the main game with 5 female characters (4 technically, because when you choose between Yennefer or Triss for your main love interest, you can't have sex with the other one, and if we don't count those 6 prostitutes in Novigrad) - compared to 11 in Assassins Creed Odyssey who can sleep with the main character Alexios/Kassandra... so Geralt doesn't have sex with every female character in the game .. in fact, far far away from it - Geralt meets dozens and dozens of female characters in the game and can interact with them, so the number of potential sex partners 4 - 5 is pretty low for a character who is know to sleep around
Female Corrin's designed is changed for Smash. In Fates, Heroes, and Warrios, F!Corrin isn't so lucky. I'm glad it's improved in Smash though. I like the two Corrin's Smash designs, though I'd like them more with shoes!What is the consensus on Corrin design in Smash 4/Ultimate? Comparions between male and female Corrin:
I actually really dig that for Robin and Corrin, the female and male designs are the same, it's really good for once to actually have the same standards for both gender, and after recently playing Smash 4 with them, they are quickly becoming one of my favorite characters of Smash.
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