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Oct 25, 2017
11,251
I'm curious what you're talking about regarding Pocahontas though. I know she's aged up in the Disney movie, but I"m not sure I've heard these "babe comments" you're referring to.

Machachan is referring to an interview around the time of The Hunchback of Notre Dame's release where Jason Alexander said that Esmeralda was "up there in the Pocahontas category for babe of the year" and was " a little more voluptuous than Pokey was."
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,703
Brazil

And how is Beach Spikers going in the last 2 generations ?

spoiler: It is not.

And I don't doubt that looking at DoAXBV sales and thinking "but it is not selling even with hot women" is part of the reason execs do this.

Question: Where do you place "cute sexy" designs? Think Shantae and her cast of busty friends, pirates and mermaids or just the general WayForward aesthetic as also seen in the Mighty Switch Force games. I can't make up my mind about where those fall on the playful-problematic spectrum.

tEuxQtu.png


https://prokopetz.tumblr.com/post/140198650672/luchagcaileag-prokopetz

She's wearing heels...

But no boob plate. She was designed more than 25 years ago =P
 

Sheldon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,337
Ruhrgebiet, Germany
Ie, my problem often mainly comes down to "is the character first a babe/dudebrobrait, and then a character?" If the answer is yes, I'm likely not very fond of her.

"Sexy characters" would have a lot more punch if they weren't the norm. It'd be fine if this was one kind of character, not most, basically!

Imo, anyway.

That's a helpful reminder, thanks. The "Who is this aimed at?" test works regardless of art style. And what are cartoon graphics even for if you don't use them to create a wider selection of different exaggerated body types.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,280
I'm curious what you're talking about regarding Pocahontas though. I know she's aged up in the Disney movie, but I"m not sure I've heard these "babe comments" you're referring to.

https://youtu.be/2ARX0-AylFI?t=551

Here's Lindsay Ellis's video essay about Pocahontas, time stamped to the part where she talks about Pocahontas's design, including some quotes from the animators about how she had to be sexy.
 

Deleted member 41271

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Machachan is referring to an interview around the time of The Hunchback of Notre Dame's release where Jason Alexander said that Esmeralda was "up there in the Pocahontas category for babe of the year" and was " a little more voluptuous than Pokey was."

Exactly that one! Esmeralda at least worked that way for the story, whereas Pocahontas just... didn't, for me!

And what are cartoon graphics even for if you don't use them to create a wider selection of different exaggerated body types.

Pretty much, yep. I had similar trouble with One Piece, which has a very disparate variety on body types by gender. Male characters come in pretty much any shape, whatever crazy, but female ones only recently seem to have branched out. A bit.
 

Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,415
Beaumont, CA
https://youtu.be/2ARX0-AylFI?t=551

Here's Lindsay Ellis's video essay about Pocahontas, time stamped to the part where she talks about Pocahontas's design, including some quotes from the animators about how she had to be sexy.

Thanks for this.

But no boob plate. She was designed more than 25 years ago =P

Funny thing is I just read in another thread there's now a rumor they're throwing World Heroes' Janne in SNK Heroines as DLC. She's been around for about as long as Charlotte, but well...


One of the earliest examples of boob plate in games? But hey at least she has proper greaves!

That's a helpful reminder, thanks. The "Who is this aimed at?" test works regardless of art style. And what are cartoon graphics even for if you don't use them to create a wider selection of different exaggerated body types.

I mentioned this in the previous OT a while back, but my test is if it's a design I wouldn't be comfortable seeing with my mom or other family in the room with me, it's probably not a good design.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,703
Brazil
Funny thing is I just read in another thread there's now a rumor they're throwing World Heroes' Janne in SNK Heroines as DLC. She's been around for about as long as Charlotte, but well...

But hey at least she has proper greaves!

Back in the day you either had one or the other not both.

Today most of the time we have neither =P
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,976
Question: Where do you place "cute sexy" designs? Think Shantae and her cast of busty friends, pirates and mermaids or just the general WayForward aesthetic as also seen in the Mighty Switch Force games. I can't make up my mind about where those fall on the playful-problematic spectrum.
Shantae's design itself in a vacuum is, eh, okay she's a belly dancer, whatever. But every female character in that series has the same body type with clothing designed to show it off and it bothers me
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,812
Shantae's design itself in a vacuum is, eh, okay she's a belly dancer, whatever. But every female character in that series has the same body type with clothing designed to show it off and it bothers me
It's not just Shantae too, it's nearly every game they make at this point.
Like Mighty Switch Force 1 & 2.
I mean I love the games but I could do without overt sexualization.
mighty-switch-force-2-art_1280.0.jpg
 

Deleted member 41271

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Mar 21, 2018
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Etrian Odyssey is a series I like a lot.

Unfortunately, a lot of its designs are complete dumpsterfires.

Take, for example, the newest game, out in Japan. I'm playing through it right now, and just unlocked something.

This is how the male version looks:
wn0BeJ5.jpg

naturally, this is the female variant:
CunYdsU.jpg

Sigh. It's a good game as such, but do they have to?
 

ShyMel

Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
3,483
Yes, some of the EO art for characters, particularly for girls is of fairly young looking girls in showy outfits.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Etrian Odyssey is a series I like a lot.

Unfortunately, a lot of its designs are complete dumpsterfires.

Take, for example, the newest game, out in Japan. I'm playing through it right now, and just unlocked something.

This is how the male version looks:
wn0BeJ5.jpg

naturally, this is the female variant:
CunYdsU.jpg

Sigh. It's a good game as such, but do they have to?
They often have four variant portraits per class, typically two adults, two kids (something I've generally appreciated over the years as I prefer the less 'chibi' look). What's grim is not just that the women are typically sexualised more than the men, but that they rarely differentiate between the little girl and adult woman in terms of costume. It's kind of a double whammy in terms of depiction. Out of morbid curiosity, what do the other two look like for this class? Is that the adult bloke and little girl, or are both female options just as bad as each other (like with the infamous dancer from EOIII on DS)?

At least I suppose EO Redux is going to have a shitload of classes with multiple portraits each (and I heard apparently being able to use any portrait for any class?) so it's always possible to assemble a reasonable party. However, I hate the way they make no distinction between the childlike depictions and adult ones with the more sexualised costumes just as much as I roll my eyes at the warrior ladies often having to be sexy/wear a dress etc first. Otherwise how would we possibly know they are female. The mind boggles! :D

I agree with you- I like the series because the cartography and little encounters and party synergy reminds me of fun times playing tabletop RPGs with my friends years ago, some of the designs are just awful though.
 
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Deleted member 41271

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Mar 21, 2018
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Yeah, the costume stuff for some classes is just awful.

Out of morbid curiosity, what do the other two look like for this class? Is that the adult bloke and little girl, or are both female options just as bad as each other (like with the infamous dancer from EOIII on DS)?

This specific class works a bit different than the others, you only have these two portraits, or any other portrait from any class you want, but with red eyes.

You can swap very wildly, so the portraits aren't much of an issue, it's just annoying that so much of the art is urgh. Also some of the NPCs.

I like the series because the cartography and little encounters and party synergy reminds me of fun times playing tabletop RPGs

Same here. The series delivers quite well in that regard. This one is also weird, you've got Persephone, who doesn't even have boob plate - and then you've got another, who is very much in the "bikini armor" camp. Silly stuff.

BY2K
That is the definition of YIKES! Her poor back.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Yeah, the costume stuff for some classes is just awful.



This specific class works a bit different than the others, you only have these two portraits, or any other portrait from any class you want, but with red eyes.

You can swap very wildly, so the portraits aren't much of an issue, it's just annoying that so much of the art is urgh. Also some of the NPCs.



Same here. The series delivers quite well in that regard. This one is also weird, you've got Persephone, who doesn't even have boob plate - and then you've got another, who is very much in the "bikini armor" camp. Silly stuff.
Oh, that's annoying. Agree on npcs in combat lingerie, at least with the portraits you can just avoid them, and I just don't see why the shitty designs need to be in at all either.

I don't get the need for wizardry-style dungeon crawls (some of which are banned for discussion here) to include this shit. By all means have wacky kid characters in it if 'cute' is what sells niche games in Japan, I mean various JRPGs have done that for decades, but why do they really need to be in lingerie? Why does 'cute' have a tendency to degrade into 'creepy' as quickly as possible?

What's ridiculous is that not all EO games contain the same amount of skeevy shit, but sales are fairly constant (taking into account drops for aging systems). That to me would imply that it's the core gameplay that is really what is selling it, not just otakubait, maybe because during the game itself you only see a crop of each party members eyes.
 

RpgN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,552
The Netherlands
Etrian Odyssey is a series I like a lot.

Unfortunately, a lot of its designs are complete dumpsterfires.

Take, for example, the newest game, out in Japan. I'm playing through it right now, and just unlocked something.

This is how the male version looks:
wn0BeJ5.jpg

naturally, this is the female variant:
CunYdsU.jpg

Sigh. It's a good game as such, but do they have to?

It's always unfortunate when EO games give the wrong impression. At least EO4 has some questionable portraits but they can easily be ignored and the main game has no fanservice. I've noticed the newer EO games having more such portraits but I'm hoping it's still largely the same where the main game has no fanservice. Do you know more about that?


Like...how can someone find that attractive...it's as if you can see her bones because of how skinny she is and yet her boobs don't match with her skinny body.


It looks like the same old DoA. What was this whole speech about toning things down?
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
It has happened twice for me today that I saw the thread's title, clicked on it, saw that image, and noped the hell out. Yeah, my memory isn't what it used to be (I can't remember the name of the game now, either). Devs please get the fuck out of here with this shit.
What game was that, I can't see the image? (Or do I not really want to?) :D

I really like your sprites/animation in Divinoids :-)
 
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Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,415
Beaumont, CA
Hahah, so true. The character in my game doesn't even have visible breasts, although to be fair she's literally eight pixels tall, so even a single pixel makes her look like Pamela Anderson (you normally control the mecha she's piloting). This works in my favor as her gender can be left ambiguous sort of like in Undertale.
8pk7boR.gif
Nice work man! The little pilot sprite reminds me of Metal Warriors.

Like...how can someone find that attractive...it's as if you can see her bones because of how skinny she is and yet her boobs don't match with her skinny body.

As a cis het man, I really don't get it either. I certainly find breasts an attractive physical feature on a woman, but once you get to those ridonkulous implant sizes all that appeal just goes right out the window for me. Yet I've seen plenty of guys who just have this "The bigger the better" mentality (sometimes saying that literally out loud in regards to their preferences) that all I could think of stems from a lack of empathy.
 

Deleted member 41271

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Hahah, so true. The character in my game doesn't even have visible breasts, although to be fair she's literally eight pixels tall, so even a single pixel makes her look like Pamela Anderson (you normally control the mecha she's piloting). This works in my favor as her gender can be left ambiguous sort of like in Undertale.
8pk7boR.gif

That looks quite good! I dig the "isis"-like mecha - I recognized what she was supposed to be without even reading the text. :) Did you do the art yourself=?
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
What game was that, I can't see the image? (Or do I not really want to?) :D

Dusk Driver. I had to reverse image search it. :D

I really like your sprites/animation in Divinoids :-)

Thanks a lot!

Nice work man! The little pilot sprite reminds me of Metal Warriors.

Thanks! You can't leave the mecha voluntarily like in Metal Warriors, but you are ejected when it's destroyed, and if you survive for ten seconds, a new one is sent (Phoenix also ejects the pilot as part of its Ultimate attack, before reforming from the ashes).

That looks quite good! I dig the "isis"-like mecha - I recognized what she was supposed to be without even reading the text. :) Did you do the art yourself=?

Thank you! Yeah, I did almost all of the game entirely solo, including the sprites; the only exception is the music: I used public domain tracks for that. My core expertise is software engineering and I can't draw to save my life; I learned to make sprites during the last year and a half and for "programmer art" it ended up looking better than I ever expected... even if that's not to say a lot. :D
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Is that literally a 'tits' mousepad along with an 'ass' mousepad? Jesus wept.

'We made a lot of noise about toning down the sexualisation by having new costumes made out of new material, that made our critics happy. So here's a pic of our lead character and her friend lying on a bed, in their old outfits, posing and taking their old panties off first. To keep the otaku happy. Everyone wins!'
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,416
The English Wilderness
Is that literally a 'tits' mousepad along with an 'ass' mousepad? Jesus wept.

'We made a lot of noise about toning down the sexualisation by having new costumes made out of new material, that made our critics happy. So here's a pic of our lead character and her friend lying on a bed, in their old outfits, posing and taking their old panties off first. To keep the otaku happy. Everyone wins!'
Remember this coming up in the old thread?
11844916-9384600900702833.jpg

That this is even a thing in the first place says everything.
 

ImNotAFroot

Member
Nov 6, 2017
295
So the new SoulCalibur VI Modes overview trailer: https://youtu.be/qb1zeH66k8o

@ 2:55 The custom character they created is literally wearing a bikini and some pieces of armor, yeah, not even a boobplate. The previous Libra of Souls trailer featured a fully armored (duh) custom male character. Just yikes.

Hope we can create some really cool looking ladies.
 
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Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,515
It looks like the same old DoA. What was this whole speech about toning things down?
Which is exactly what I've been saying would end up being the case for months. No matter what Shimbori was on about. Players up in arms about getting rid of the fanservice were wailing over nothing, and anyone who had been hoping a franchise that had been set in its ways for 20 years now was somehow going to change placed entirely too much stock in corporate PR.
Is that literally a 'tits' mousepad along with an 'ass' mousepad? Jesus wept.

'We made a lot of noise about toning down the sexualisation by having new costumes made out of new material, that made our critics happy. So here's a pic of our lead character and her friend lying on a bed, in their old outfits, posing and taking their old panties off first. To keep the otaku happy. Everyone wins!'
There will be a third one of those mousepads in that set reserved for the new female character they have yet to reveal, BTW.
 
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Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,416
The English Wilderness
Which is exactly what I've been saying would end up being the case for months. No matter what Shimbori was on about. Players up in arms about getting rid of the fanservice were wailing over nothing, and anyone who had been hoping a franchise that had been set in its ways for 20 years now was somehow going to change placed entirely too much stock in corporate PR.
What's depressing is just how well it works. You'd think more people would've wised yp enough to recognise blatant PR spin by now...
 

Deleted member 42158

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 15, 2018
115
Etrian Odyssey is a series I like a lot.

Unfortunately, a lot of its designs are complete dumpsterfires.

Take, for example, the newest game, out in Japan. I'm playing through it right now, and just unlocked something.

This is how the male version looks:
wn0BeJ5.jpg

naturally, this is the female variant:
CunYdsU.jpg

Sigh. It's a good game as such, but do they have to?
Checking the artist wikipidia page shows that he was artist of a loli hentai vn in the past , so i guess no surprise there
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
So the new SoulCalibur VI Modes overview trailer: https://youtu.be/qb1zeH66k8o

@ 2:55 The custom character they created is literally wearing a bikini and some pieces of armor, yeah, not even a boobplate. The previous Libra of Souls trailer featured a fully armored (duh) custom male character. Just yikes.

Hope we can create some really cool looking ladies.
Not only did they use a bikini outfit in their example, it's one of the worst possible combinations of armored limbs + literal bikini that one can ever create.

The female character designs across the board have been pretty revealing of the designers' inclinations, but this just gives you no room for doubt about how they really feel about women...
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
In this week's FE Heroes news... we've had panties outside shorts, how about panties outside FE Fate's patented painted-on platemail?
SMwOMF.png
 
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