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TheXbox

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,566
As someone who plans to stick with current hardware for a while, I understand why cross-gen bothers people and they have historically been justified in their concerns. The folks who want generational leaps in fidelity aren't going to see that realized until the old baseline is discarded. If you care about graphics and performance, it's obviously frustrating to sit in a holding pattern for a couple years. Same shit happened last gen.

I'm personally ambivalent since I don't really care and I don't want to spend the money, but I get it.
 

HanzSnubSnub

Member
Oct 27, 2017
918
This day has been priceless because it showed that next gen experiences are at least another year away.

With many games coming to current gen, there isn't very many "system sellers" left.
 

MrFox

VFX Rendering Pipeline Developer
Verified
Jun 8, 2020
1,435
1. Cross-gen does come with a compromise in the game design. It's disingenious to claim it never does, and we have clear explanations of how the SSD will change how levels will be able to be designed more freely, and how a lighting model that includes RT is not simple to down-port.

2. Not bothering with a previous gen port isn't the same as a game built from the ground up for next-gen. Wanting a game to be PS5-only won't make it better.

3. Some types of game don't need the new hardware, and will always be portable downstream.

4. There will be very few true next-gen games at launch, just as we've seen with all the past generations.
 

Kaivan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,390
Just imagine, a game being a cross-gen means that it has to run on a 8-year hardware. It will look and run better on the new hardware, but it won't be able to utilize all its new features. It's as simple as that.
 

Azerth

Prophet of Truth - Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,196
i have no problem with crossgen as others playing a game has no bearing on my enjoyment of it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,854
Because I'm ready for games to finally evolve.

The PS4 and Xbox One have insanely weak CPUs. Jaguar cores were being used in cheap netbooks back in 2013. They were unimpressive 7 years ago, and these horribly weak CPUs are why we haven't seen advancements in AI, physics, etc in games. Not much has changed on that front in the last decade. The HDDs are also slow, capping out at 100 MB/s.

Other than the GPUs, the Xbox One and PS4 weren't THAT big of upgrades over the PS3 and Xbox 360.

But now, we have systems with new Zen 2 CPU cores that can usher in a new wave of AI, physics, dynamic systems, complexity, etc in our games. Combine this with the NVME SSDs and larger GDDR6 RAM pools and we have consoles that have extrordinary advantages over the previous generation - some of the largest we have ever seen in a single transition to a new generation.

I want games built for these new systems that are free from the limitations of a 5 GB RAM pool, Jaguar CPU cores, and slow outdated mechanical hard drives.
This.
 

Subpar Scrub

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,576
Because I want to see games pushed as far as they reasonably can without developers having to worry about the games also running well on old consoles. The install base of ps4 and xbone are huge. so I don't blame them, but I'd rather a 100% dedicated effort towards getting the most out of newer technology.
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,782
I had no problem with it last week.

I got no problem with a year of cross-gen today.
 

AriesM4rch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
313
Fanboys need a justification to flex on others because they bought a brand new console.
Believing that Sony would abandon the huge user-base of the PS4 is just laughable.
 

linkboy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,710
Reno
I've got no complaints.

I'm not going to be able to afford a PS5 anytime soon, so it's nice to be not locked out of something like Horizon Zero Dawn Forbidden West.
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,942
Agreed, OP. People acting like Spider-Man was about to set the standard for the whole gen haha
Horizon. Not Spiderman. Spiderman was Cross-gen from the beginning.

I think people are afraid that a cross-gen games will compromise the next gen version of the game.
As in: the game might lack features that would have been there if it was 100% next gen (graphical or otherwise) because it also has to be played on last gen.
On the other side a lot of "this gen" games suffer from being cross gen as well (running like shit or looking like shit).

Pretty simple actually.
 
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IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,993
I don't hate it, just means I'm in no rush to buy a next gen system, which I'd be lying if I said was new, but the PS5D was pretty tempting for a little while. Waiting until 2022 is looking more likely than 21 now for me, pretty much just GoW being PS5 only and releasing next year or my PS4 dying is what will change my mind.
 

T002 Tyrant

Member
Nov 8, 2018
8,995
I'm more laughing at the people who gave Xbox flack for being cross gen and there's PLENTY on this forum.
 

Deleted member 15311

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,088
Cross-gen games don't look as good as games that only come out on one console. That's why.
But those same games where the Best looking ever before they announced them for the PS4. What changed só drastically, because honestly peoples were just going on and on about looks and not Necessarly about new mechanics or else, only possible on the new gen.
 

Deleted member 15311

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,088
Who ever said that? I never saw anything close to that sentiment anywhere on this forum.
As for the question, it's simple. Game design, level design, gameplay mechanics, the complexity of IA, the number of simultaneous players in an online game for example - just to name a few - will still have to work on 7 years old machines instead.
To be cross-gen is just to have another graphical preset, like a PC. And well, you can't drive innovation with increased rendering resolution and a steadier FPS.
What innovation did we saw this past generations besides better graphics? Hell one of the games lauded as the best ever has static lighting. What enormous innovation are people really expecting here?
 

Kotze282

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,255
I want Horizon 2's game design to fully benefit from the PS5's SSD. It won't if it's also releasing on PS4, which is very disappointing. Especially after Sony told us how much of a difference the SSD will make in game design.

Same goes for Miles Morales. Sony told us how traversal speed in Spiderman was limited by asset streaming. It releasing on PS4 basically means we won't get to see the benefits of the SSD. They showed how much faster they can move through the city on PS5, but that won't happen in the game now.

It's not about the graphics at all. I'm against cross gen because I don't want the only benefit of the PS5 to be graphics (or load times).
 

nanskee

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,071
Cross-gen is fantastic, love that we still have the option to play on old consoles. I really need to build a PC soon
 

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
3. Some types of game don't need the new hardware, and will always be portable downstream.

4. There will be very few true next-gen games at launch, just as we've seen with all the past generations.
These points are especially true. We don't actually know how many games are TRULY being held back by cross gen, this is only an assumption. Many of these games (most I would even say) were probably not doing anything that couldn't be done in previous consoles outside of maybe some fancier graphic options.
 

Batatina

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,269
Edinburgh, UK
Because it creates a bottleneck that limits game design. For me it's got nothing to do with console wars, I just want the games to be fully unleashed by not having to work on older hardware, in so many ways that surpass just having better lighting or shadows.

I want the big tentpoles to be next-gen exclusives, so they can push the envelope, but indie games or smaller experiences are fine as cross-gen. If your game doesn't have elements that simply would never work on older hardware, then by all means.
 

IMCaprica

Member
Aug 1, 2019
9,439
Halo Infinite looked rough and people panicked and assumed this was going to be the reality for every cross-gen game. In hindsight it seems possible that being cross-gen isn't why that game looked rough. A lot of people now seem convinced development woes that don't involve hardware are the problem.

The irony in all of this is that the two companies seem to have ended up on the opposite sides we all assumed they were on. Xbox's output after Halo is all next-gen, and PS5's is a mix of cross-gen and next-gen.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,624
I don't care about the others being cross gen, but Horizon 2 should have flying mounts. :/
 

Puru

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,176
These games were probably made with the old consoles in mind due to being made years ago but also release on the new toy to benefit from the early draught. Complaints of non 1st party studio being cross gen is just weird to me.
Give it some time, new AAA projects will probably shift their focus to the new gen at this point and cross gen will slowly disappear.
 

thenexus6

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,332
UK
Because I don't want to game with 7 year old tech anymore. The stuff is incredibly outdated.

It's time to move on.
 

waugh

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Feb 21, 2020
1,401
Guys, the SSD is going to be as much of a game changer as you think it is. Most games won't involve instant area switching like the new R&C.
 

Arkaign

Member
Nov 25, 2017
1,991
Because it creates a bottleneck that limits game design. For me it's got nothing to do with console wars, I just want the games to be fully unleashed by not having to work on older hardware, in so many ways that surpass just having better lighting or shadows.

I want the big tentpoles to be next-gen exclusives, so they can push the envelope, but indie games or smaller experiences are fine as cross-gen. If your game doesn't have elements that simply would never work on older hardware, then by all means.

I agree with this.

You know, what strikes me as something not really spoken of here, is that I think for most people disappointed right now, it's not that we don't want or expect there to be ANY cross-gen titles. Some titles make sense to be cross-gen. Some titles are missed opportunities to be cross-gen as well even, like Gran Turismo 6 on PS3 in PS4 launch window, what an oopsie that was in retrospect.

But look at PS4 launch window games, Killzone Shadowfall, Knack, Infamous Second Son, and beyond, Sony 1st party was almost exclusively devoted to making PS4-built titles, with a few exceptions where it actually made sense. Third parties are OF COURSE going to go ham with cross-gen, which is what makes it all the more exciting to actually see next-gen titles not crippled by old baselines.

It also makes for some interesting switchovers when third party franchises jump to next gen. The difference between 7th gen baseline Assassin's Creed, COD, Watch Dogs, etc and titles built ground up for 8th were pretty robust, with some growing pains like with AC Unity lol. And who can forget the heroics of taking 8th gen games and cramming backports to weak hardware like with Titanfall 360 (based Bluepoint, holy hell) and Witcher 3 Switch. I know Switch is technically 8th gen, but let's be real and call it 7+/7.5. It's way down on ram, I/O, and GPU, but with better features and not limited by half a gig of system+vram.

Hell with Switch, that's why WiiU cross-gen ports are so well received starting with BOTW. If Switch was a set top console only with that power deficit, it would rightfully be laughed at, but people understand the inherent limitations of being a handheld, and are willing to accept the compromises. What would be pretty pathetic for a set top $299 even in 2013 is pretty impressive for a handheld under any reasonable metric.

Coming full circle, if ONLY Sackboy and a couple of other minor 1st party were cross-gen from launch onwards, there would still be at least a solid couple of years of cross-gen led by Ubi/etc. I think that's what everyone was expecting with PS5 and the previous messaging about building new potential with the SSD and cast increases in I/O, level design, CPU and AI, etc. You'd have the heaps of cross gen third party for the first couple of years, and then a handful of 9th gen exclusives.

But now? It seems like almost everything so far is cross-gen, other than Ratchet and maybe God of War. Demon's is obviously a PS3 title, and however impressive, is just a dressed up game with prettier graphics and faster loading. Not entirely a bad thing, but a PS4 version would have totally been doable, no question. Spiderman Miles and Horizon are now PS4 titles, PS5 will just be prettier, faster loading versions of the same title. And for how long afterwards? After this, it seems many expect that God of War is not even designed around PS5, whether or not they actually have a PS4 port planned. The backlash may get them to lean towards cancelling a PS4 port, which I actually feel would be sad and the wrong move IF they've designed it as a PS4 baseline game this entire time anyway.

We don't want PS5 exclusive games just to crap on 8th gen. That's not at all what this is about. It's just that 8th gen already had barely any more CPU power than 7th gen to begin with, and now it's kind of been since ~2005 that we've had game design limited by fairly low hardware/game AI and scope potential, just with ever increasing textures and resolution. 8C/16T 3.6+GHz Zen2 and 50-100X faster storage makes for a gargantuan increase in what could be done with that level of baseline, and having to wait even longer to see very much of that is suboptimal.

EVEN Ratchet, PS5 exclusive that it is, has to kind of make sense as a game that plays by old era Ratchet and Clank rules.
 

RedSparrows

Prophet of Regret
Member
Feb 22, 2019
6,501
Gamers: I WANT NEW THINGS
Also gamers: REMASTERS UNNGHHH YESSS

I know this isn't a strict gotcha, yes yes, but I like it.

EVEN Ratchet, PS5 exclusive that it is, has to kind of make sense as a game that plays by old era Ratchet and Clank rules.

Isn't this the perennial elephant in the room? Hardly any game really makes a paradigmatic leap in and of itself (and when they do, it's often not really fundamentally contingent on tech in many, many ways). Horizon 2 will be gorgeous and big and likely still pretty familiar in almost all respects. Nothing wrong with that, but it's a noticeable thing alongside publisher (and some fan) rhetoric of 'NEXT GEN OMG'.
 

Pancakes R Us

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,349
Since the days of the HD era we've been used to new releases that distanced themselves from the previous generation in a visible, but not exaggerated way. Many times I found myself thinking "this game could have run on the previous console" with the right adjustments and cuts. I'm talking about early life releases of course.
Today, thanks to PS4's forward thinking architecture, we find ourselves having a choice, which was even praised during the "PS4 Pro" period.
If you want to stick with your old console, you can still play these new amazing games. If you want a better experience, you can upgrade, and given modern techniques we can be sure that the differences will be there.

I know it's better to see next-gen only games but that takes time, it's always been this way. So having a choice to me, at least for the first year, seems just good.
It's basically ammo in fanboy wars, that's it. Lord knows that the PC gaming market (which I'm not part of) has been handling this fine for years. It seems to be console warriors that can't deal with this.
 

AgonyRon

Member
Nov 27, 2017
688
It isn't bad at all, its just that a lot of people were hating MS for it and bragging about Sony taking a different approach. Fanboyism is quite sad.
 

C J P

Member
Jul 28, 2020
1,302
London
The concern of holding next-gen back is IMO secondary to the fact that developers end up selling games that play like shit - games you wouldn't send out the door in that condition mid-gen - to people on old-gen consoles just to maximise revenue. It's not just an inferior experience, it's often an outright terrible one.

Like, the next-gen versions of Shadow of Mordor and Dragon Age: Inquisition looked and played nicely; the 360/PS3 versions performed quite badly IIRC - and in the case of DA: I, DLC support was completely discontinued, so the experience was also incomplete.
 
Oct 2, 2018
3,902
Because I'm ready for games to finally evolve.

The PS4 and Xbox One have insanely weak CPUs. Jaguar cores were being used in cheap netbooks back in 2013. They were unimpressive 7 years ago, and these horribly weak CPUs are why we haven't seen advancements in AI, physics, etc in games. Not much has changed on that front in the last decade. The HDDs are also slow, capping out at 100 MB/s.

Other than the GPUs, the Xbox One and PS4 weren't THAT big of upgrades over the PS3 and Xbox 360.

But now, we have systems with new Zen 2 CPU cores that can usher in a new wave of AI, physics, dynamic systems, complexity, etc in our games. Combine this with the NVME SSDs and larger GDDR6 RAM pools and we have consoles that have extrordinary advantages over the previous generation - some of the largest we have ever seen in a single transition to a new generation.

I want games built for these new systems that are free from the limitations of a 5 GB RAM pool, Jaguar CPU cores, and slow outdated mechanical hard drives.

great post.
thank you.
 

Makoto Yuki

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,446
I'm cool with Cross generation as long as the next generation versions load faster, seriously the only thing about the next generation consoles that appeals to me isn't the graphics. Knowing that they are suppose to load super fast is a selling point to me.

Tired of DMC5, Bloodborne, etc etc long ass load times.

Do I want the full potential to be unlock at some point? Yes absolutely, but this is early Next-gen they are not gonna abandon the huge PS4 fan base. Hell MS ain't gonna abandon any of the Xbox family for a while, which is both cool and crazy at the same time.
 

Monarch1501

Designer @ Dontnod
Verified
Nov 2, 2017
161
What innovation did we saw this past generations besides better graphics? Hell one of the games lauded as the best ever has static lighting. What enormous innovation are people really expecting here?

I wasn't talking about a specific generation but since you seem to hint at TLOU2, let's talk about it! Because I think that's a good example of the increased all-round capability of the PS4 directly translating into innovations such as the motion-matching technology they used to offer fluid mobility when playing - while retaining realistic animations. Mind you it's not a breathtaking innovation, but it's one nonetheless - one that I doubt could run on 256 megs of RAM.

Or take a look at PUGB and Fortnite with their players' count and the Battle Royal formula. You could tell me that MAG on PS3 had already 256 players count (or Resistance 2 with its 60 players) but I think that upping the minimal specs is also about lowering the cost of specific technical hurdles. Even though I'm positive Epic spent a big chunk of money investing in UE4, all to have Fortnite running on your Iphone 6, that investment is also shared with all developers using that engine. Meaning that we can have Fall Guys running on PS4. And so on.

Devs share their accomplishment and innovations all the time at conventions and whatnot. I think it's only natural to be excited this time around as the SSD and CPU combo will open up new possibilities, even more so that the one possible between PS3/360 and PS4/XB1 since it was mostly focused on increasing GPU power and RAM.
 
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Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,992
Because I'm ready for games to finally evolve.

The PS4 and Xbox One have insanely weak CPUs. Jaguar cores were being used in cheap netbooks back in 2013. They were unimpressive 7 years ago, and these horribly weak CPUs are why we haven't seen advancements in AI, physics, etc in games. Not much has changed on that front in the last decade. The HDDs are also slow, capping out at 100 MB/s.

Other than the GPUs, the Xbox One and PS4 weren't THAT big of upgrades over the PS3 and Xbox 360.

But now, we have systems with new Zen 2 CPU cores that can usher in a new wave of AI, physics, dynamic systems, complexity, etc in our games. Combine this with the NVME SSDs and larger GDDR6 RAM pools and we have consoles that have extrordinary advantages over the previous generation - some of the largest we have ever seen in a single transition to a new generation.

I want games built for these new systems that are free from the limitations of a 5 GB RAM pool, Jaguar CPU cores, and slow outdated mechanical hard drives.
I agree with this.

You know, what strikes me as something not really spoken of here, is that I think for most people disappointed right now, it's not that we don't want or expect there to be ANY cross-gen titles. Some titles make sense to be cross-gen. Some titles are missed opportunities to be cross-gen as well even, like Gran Turismo 6 on PS3 in PS4 launch window, what an oopsie that was in retrospect.

But look at PS4 launch window games, Killzone Shadowfall, Knack, Infamous Second Son, and beyond, Sony 1st party was almost exclusively devoted to making PS4-built titles, with a few exceptions where it actually made sense. Third parties are OF COURSE going to go ham with cross-gen, which is what makes it all the more exciting to actually see next-gen titles not crippled by old baselines.

It also makes for some interesting switchovers when third party franchises jump to next gen. The difference between 7th gen baseline Assassin's Creed, COD, Watch Dogs, etc and titles built ground up for 8th were pretty robust, with some growing pains like with AC Unity lol. And who can forget the heroics of taking 8th gen games and cramming backports to weak hardware like with Titanfall 360 (based Bluepoint, holy hell) and Witcher 3 Switch. I know Switch is technically 8th gen, but let's be real and call it 7+/7.5. It's way down on ram, I/O, and GPU, but with better features and not limited by half a gig of system+vram.

Hell with Switch, that's why WiiU cross-gen ports are so well received starting with BOTW. If Switch was a set top console only with that power deficit, it would rightfully be laughed at, but people understand the inherent limitations of being a handheld, and are willing to accept the compromises. What would be pretty pathetic for a set top $299 even in 2013 is pretty impressive for a handheld under any reasonable metric.

Coming full circle, if ONLY Sackboy and a couple of other minor 1st party were cross-gen from launch onwards, there would still be at least a solid couple of years of cross-gen led by Ubi/etc. I think that's what everyone was expecting with PS5 and the previous messaging about building new potential with the SSD and cast increases in I/O, level design, CPU and AI, etc. You'd have the heaps of cross gen third party for the first couple of years, and then a handful of 9th gen exclusives.

But now? It seems like almost everything so far is cross-gen, other than Ratchet and maybe God of War. Demon's is obviously a PS3 title, and however impressive, is just a dressed up game with prettier graphics and faster loading. Not entirely a bad thing, but a PS4 version would have totally been doable, no question. Spiderman Miles and Horizon are now PS4 titles, PS5 will just be prettier, faster loading versions of the same title. And for how long afterwards? After this, it seems many expect that God of War is not even designed around PS5, whether or not they actually have a PS4 port planned. The backlash may get them to lean towards cancelling a PS4 port, which I actually feel would be sad and the wrong move IF they've designed it as a PS4 baseline game this entire time anyway.

We don't want PS5 exclusive games just to crap on 8th gen. That's not at all what this is about. It's just that 8th gen already had barely any more CPU power than 7th gen to begin with, and now it's kind of been since ~2005 that we've had game design limited by fairly low hardware/game AI and scope potential, just with ever increasing textures and resolution. 8C/16T 3.6+GHz Zen2 and 50-100X faster storage makes for a gargantuan increase in what could be done with that level of baseline, and having to wait even longer to see very much of that is suboptimal.

EVEN Ratchet, PS5 exclusive that it is, has to kind of make sense as a game that plays by old era Ratchet and Clank rules.


These two are the exact reason why we don't want cross gen games from first party studios. Excellent posts
 

Bosch

Banned
May 15, 2019
3,680
This. Most notably, it was weaponized by PlayStation marketing. Which is now, obviously, a massive blunder.

The ironic part is that now Xbox has a dozen next gen exclusives announced and PlayStation has God of War (possibly).
Demons Souls is exclusive. Ratchet too. Onlye 3 games of 12 announced are cross gen.

For Xbox only Halo infinite was cross gen.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Xbox got killed for this cause of Halo Infinite, people said that due to cross gen it looked bad. It just looked bad period, even for a current gen game. Looking at Spidey, that's cross gen but looks fantastic on PS5.
This mantra was prevalent long before Halo though, just look at the multiple threads about Booty's comment about supporting cross gen for 2 years.
 

MercuryLS

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,578
This mantra was prevalent long before Halo though, just look at the multiple threads about Booty's for his comment about supporting cross gen for 2 years.

There is a prevailing notion that cross gen holds back games, it's not unfounded. A game built from the ground up for next gen will be more impressive. I'm not fussed that early games are cross gen personally, over time that will be phased out.