Why isn't there more Immersive Sims?

Alastor3 · Dec 25, 2019

Games like System Shock, Bioshock, Prey, Dishonored, Thief, etc.

Is it because it's first person single player? I know there are some indie immersive sims that are coming out next year but they look super minimalist (which i understand) but i always feel immersive sims have to be packed of visual details to tell what happened or happening since it's heavy narrative and you want to use as much show-don't-tell in your background.

Why isn't more studio try their hands in this, it seems it's always the same studio doing all the best immersions (AKA past and next ken levine game also)

I haven't played dishonored but i just started Prey and im in live and have no idea it would be this good (also the asthetic of this game is amazing)

KaiPow · Dec 25, 2019

Give Underworld Ascension a play and let me know what you think.

Samanosuke Akechi · Dec 25, 2019

Isn't alien isolation this too? If so, it's my favorite.

ClickyCal' · Dec 25, 2019

Bioshock is barely an immersive sim.

Rosenkrantz · Dec 25, 2019

Because immersive sims ask a lot from the player. You have to be an active participant to make them fun to play, there're little to no setpieces and other flashy things in such games. They're also tend to depower the player character to the point there stealth is a more viable option than combat, and that's a guaranteed loss of sales.

Blade Wolf · Dec 25, 2019

Because they keep under-performing. Just look at Dishonored 2, Prey and Deus Ex: Mankind Divided

I am just glad that we are getting Cyberpunk 2077 cause that game is our only hope for immersive sims right now. Save us CDPR.

sredgrin · Dec 25, 2019

Samanosuke Akechi said:
Isn't alien isolation this too? If so, it's my favorite.

Not really, no.

Mr. Genuine · Dec 25, 2019

Is Void Bastards a "Immersive sim"

I bet less than 4% of True Gamers are aware this term exists, btw.

EVA UNIT 01 · Dec 25, 2019

They don't sell

5taquitos · Dec 25, 2019

Not only are they fairly niche, but by their nature they are complex beasts and require large-ish teams.

jonjonaug · Dec 25, 2019

They're hard to make and don't sell very well. The only real big success in the last ten years or so was Deus Ex 3, and that was mostly riding the wave of "we brought back this big name property and it's actually good!".

Vandal Deca · Dec 25, 2019

Prey's one of my surprise faves as well. The immersive sim has long been my favorite genre, but I get that they're not for everybody and they probably are more difficult to make than a typical FPS because you have to consider what players can do with all of the systems you give them. Preventing them from breaking the game while still giving them the ability to craft their own solution is a fine line.

So, you've got all this extra up-front investment and design complexity, and time and again we see these games not being rewarded with significant sales. It sucks but it's business.

I don't know if I'd call CDPR's Cyberpunk an immersive sim (not that I can really know for sure, since I obviously haven't played it) but it's the closest thing I can name that's due for release soon.

wvan13 · Dec 25, 2019

Salbert said:
I bet less than 4% of True Gamers are aware this term exists, btw.

Yeah, I have no idea what this thread is about. I'm hoping somebody will define what the actual topic is about.

Net_Wrecker · Dec 25, 2019

Because they're hard to make, harder to make well, and too heady to be mass market successes. Maybe Cyberpunk will change that.

jett · Dec 25, 2019

They seem to be very complicated to make. And some of the last few high profile ones bombed with the bigness (Prey and Dishonored 2).

water_wendi · Dec 25, 2019

Probably the same reason why you dont see as many choice and consequence rpgs.. they are hard to make.

N_Cryo · Dec 25, 2019

wvan13 said:
Yeah, I have no idea what this thread is about. I'm hoping somebody will define what the actual topic is about.

I thought it was about simulators. Like euro truck simulator or something.

Dusk Golem · Dec 25, 2019

I watched a good recent video on the history of Immersive Sims here. It's long but worth a watch if you're interested in the history of the genre:

What I picked up from this is outside of a few examples, most Immersive Sims are not only hard and expensive to make, they're also often not worth it as many are commercial failures. That said, some do go on to become huge successes, but it's very rare. Add to this that many fans of individual games of this type may not even realize it's part of the larger genre of Immersive Sims (the genre has done a bad job at communicating it's even a genre, what it's central appeal is, and how these games are connected in game design outside of the most hardcore enthusiasts of the genre. Most gamers don't even know what an Immersive Sim really is and many haven't even heard the term before).

Deleted member 1238 · Dec 25, 2019

Unfortunately no one buys them.

Horned Reaper · Dec 25, 2019

N_Cryo said:
I thought it was about simulators. Like euro truck simulator or something.

Same lol.

Dussck · Dec 25, 2019

So what makes for an 'immersive sim' exactly?
Is that a game where the player gets dropped into a world with a certain set of rules and where the gameplay loop naturally originates from that?

Because that's my favourite genre then.

Are these considers 'imsims'?:

Death Stranding
Breath of the Wild
No Man's Sky

Dodgerfan74 · Dec 25, 2019

Rosenkrantz said:
Because immersive sims ask a lot from the player. You have to be an active participant to make them fun to play, there're little to no setpieces and other flashy things in such games. They're also tend to depower the player character to the point there stealth is a more viable option than combat, and that's a guaranteed loss of sales.

It's this. The market has no little interest in them so the genre has dried up. It's one of the worst industry trends.

Gamer @ Heart · Dec 25, 2019

Dussck said:
So what makes for an 'immersive sim' exactly?
Is that a game where the player gets dropped into a world with a certain set of rules and where the gameplay loop naturally originates from that?

Because that's my favourite genre then.

Are these considers 'imsims'?:

Death Stranding
Breath of the Wild
No Man's Sky

Not really.

I.S. are more focused experiences. Think Deus ex, Dishonored, prey and even BioShock to a lighter degree. You are given skills and abilities and have crafted levels specifically designed to offer multiple ways to accomplish objectives given which abilities you have chosen/upgraded.

HK-47 · Dec 25, 2019

Because idiots don't buy them

And they are expensive to make so indies can't pick up the slack.

HK-47 · Dec 25, 2019

Dussck said:
So what makes for an 'immersive sim' exactly?
Is that a game where the player gets dropped into a world with a certain set of rules and where the gameplay loop naturally originates from that?

Because that's my favourite genre then.

Are these considers 'imsims'?:

Death Stranding
Breath of the Wild
No Man's Sky

BotW probably wasn't looking at immersive sims for its design, but it's open way of tackling obstacles through stuff like climbing and the physics engine certainly give it A feel similar to immersive sims.

KushalaDaora · Dec 25, 2019

Here's hoping Cyberpunk 2077 (and Vampire Masquerade Bloodlines 2) will help reinvigorate the genre.

wvan13 · Dec 25, 2019

N_Cryo said:
I thought it was about simulators. Like euro truck simulator or something.

Horned Reaper said:
Same lol.

I came in thinking "Someone wants a new Sims game that's immersive like real life?" Thinking controlling an avatar going through the day to day, but without the goofy Sims stuff. Like Euro Truck Simulator, but for a data entry job or something.

Rathorial · Dec 25, 2019

They just sell poorly and are hard to advertise in short commercials/trailers.

It's telling that the most financially successful games attached to the term immersive sim are the Bioshock titles...and that was Irrational getting focus testing to encourage them to simplify and streamline out elements of that genre to be a more straightforward shooter. Even the metacritic average for Bioshock 1 is higher than any of the other renowned immersive sims, showing critics prefer that approach.

Just kind of one of those life isn't fair things, especially as they're my favorite kind of game...but I'll support any indie attempts, along with a publisher ballsy enough to risk millions on another AAA attempt (another Vampire Masquerade the closest to that try).

capitalCORN · Dec 25, 2019

Looking Glass! We miss you! :_;

Pargon · Dec 25, 2019

The sad irony is that when you look at people's lists of things they want to see improved with next-gen games (physics-driven interactivity, more open-ended mission design allowing players to complete objectives as they see fit etc), many people basically seem to be describing immersive sims; despite being completely unaware of them.
And this is on an enthusiast forum.

Imitatio · Dec 25, 2019

I want more immersive sims, but they're just too niche as a genre overall. And with Eidos fucking up Deus Ex: Mankind's monetization/pre-order stuff and Bethesda acting as another major publisher for those games, we're pretty much out of luck for major productions I fear.
Advertising immersive sims was hard enough, but it seemed to me that those pubs didn't really handle their respective releases well, making it even harder for the genre to gain steam or success in any way.

With how the landscape is right now in terms of economics, I don't really see many devs trying again.

Yossarian · Dec 25, 2019

More of this sort of thing!

Dusk Golem · Dec 25, 2019

Imitatio said:
I want more immersive sims, but they're just too niche as a genre overall. And with Eidos fucking up Deus Ex: Mankind's monetization/pre-order stuff and Bethesda acting as another major publisher for those games, we're pretty much out of luck for major productions I fear.
Advertising immersive sims was hard enough, but it seemed to me that those pubs didn't really handle their respective releases well, making it even harder for the genre to gain steam or success in any way.

With how the landscape is right now in terms of economics, I don't really see many devs trying again.

We do at least have something of a bigger hurah for the genre happening in early 2020 with Cyberpunk 2077 and Vampire: Bloodlines 2 coming out next year. It'll be interesting to see how these two games perform.

Horned Reaper · Dec 25, 2019

Pargon said:
The sad irony is that when you look at people's lists of things they want to see improved with next-gen games (physics-driven interactivity, more open-ended mission design allowing players to complete objectives as they see fit etc), many people basically seem to be describing immersive sims; despite being completely unaware of them.
And this is on an enthusiast forum.

I think most people would love them, just not at the expense of the game becoming a jack of all trades, master of none. The genre not being as popular as peoples wishes for improvements seem to indicate is probably due to the lack of overall quality in the (AAA) games that do try and attempt it. Understandably so, since it's probably one of the most difficult genres to get right.

Mentalist · Dec 25, 2019

Cyberpunk, Bloodlines 2, and System Shock(s) are coming.
Dying Light 2 feels like it'll fill the same niche as well, with its bigger focus on gameplay choices.

It's a high-risk genre that few of the big publishers are willing to delve into. You won't see EA or Ubi greenlight one; a new BioShock, and hopefully Arkane's next game, DeathLoop, are also aiming for that type of experience.

Rosenkrantz · Dec 25, 2019

Horned Reaper said:
The genre not being as popular as peoples wishes for improvements seem to indicate is probably due to the lack of overall quality in the (AAA) games that do try and attempt it.

I mean, outside of MD (which was a big improvement over HR in terms of level design, but suffered from other shortcomings/SE management) the only other AAA immersive sims on the market are Dishonored 2 and Prey, both were GOTY contenders in a year of release.

I struggle to think of any real mediocrity outside of Thief 4 tho, and that one is barely an immersive sim.

Rommaz · Dec 25, 2019

Cause more often than not they sell like trash while being expensive or complex to make. Not worth the investment.

Horned Reaper · Dec 25, 2019

Rosenkrantz said:
I mean, outside of MD (which was a big improvement over HR in terms of level design, but suffered from other shortcomings/SE management) the only other AAA immersive sims on the market are Dishonored 2 and Prey, both were GOTY contenders in a year of release.

I struggle to think of any real mediocrity outside of Thief 4 tho, and that one is barely an immersive sim.

A recent one that comes to mind is The Outer Worlds.

What I mean though, is that most studios just try to add an extra element to their games at first, like adding the option to stealth through sections in a fps. They already struggle to balance those or make them interesting without compromising quality, so they just stick to the core gameplay loop, or switch genres completely.

dunkzilla · Dec 25, 2019

As a massive immersive sim fan, the fan base just isn't there.

Horned Reaper said:
A recent one that comes to mind is The Outer Worlds.

What I mean though, is that most studios just try to add an extra element to their games at first, like adding the option to stealth through sections in a fps. They already struggle to balance those or make them interesting without compromising quality, so they just stick to the core gameplay loop, or switch genres completely.

I wouldn't call Outer Worlds and immersive sim.

Glio · Dec 25, 2019

Reading this thread I am unable to distinguish first person RPG from immersive sim.

leng jai · Dec 25, 2019

How many of them even sell enough to justify the effort and money it takes to make one? I love them but I rarely ever remember any actually doing well sales wise outside of maybe Human Revolution.

Messofanego · Dec 25, 2019

I think Dying Light 2 is also gonna have immersive sim elements, but I can't wait for Bloodlines 2. On the indie upcoming immersive sims, I'm still waiting for Tangiers and Gloomwood (both devs heavily inspired and constantly wax lyrical about immersive sims).

Salbert said:
Is Void Bastards a "Immersive sim"

I bet less than 4% of True Gamers are aware this term exists, btw.

Void Bastards definitely has elements of immersive sims like the multiple playstyles with the various items and weapons, systemic AI, mixed with roguelike elements. The RPG aspect is not as deep, but for an indie game inspired by them, it's really good.

Femto0 · Dec 25, 2019

Because they sell like poop

spineduke · Dec 25, 2019

Glio said:
Reading this thread I am unable to distinguish first person RPG from immersive sim.

They often overlap, with games like Fallout displaying some elements. Immersive sims are basically FPS sandboxes that give you multiple tools and approaches to solving problems, while allowing you to interface with a variety of systems. So while FO can meet those requirements, something like Borderlands automatically fails.

Ones i can think off the top of my head

Thief
System Shock
Deus Ex
Prey
Alien Isolation

Horned Reaper · Dec 25, 2019

Glio said:
Reading this thread I am unable to distinguish first person RPG from immersive sim.

This.

It seems there is not a clear definition of what is and isn't an immersive sim in the first place.

Patapuf · Dec 25, 2019

They don't sell.

The deus ex reboot and the first bioshock being exeptions.

Slim Action · Dec 25, 2019

Patapuf said:
They don't sell.

The deus ex reboot and the first bioshock being exeptions.

Dishonored 1 also sold decently back in 2012.

Shrikey · Dec 25, 2019

Horned Reaper said:
This.

It seems there is not a clear definition of what is and isn't an immersive sim in the first place.

I hadn't heard the term until I watched the errant signal-series on the subject, so that's an issue. But for fans of the genre, it's usually pretty clear.

Deus Ex
System Shock
Bioshock (one could potentially argue about Infinite)
Prey
Dishonored
Thief

Those are pretty much it in terms of AAA.

The fact that people can't distinguish between this and Fallout doesn't mean the genre isn't clear.

Hub world/Metroidvania style map and non-linear level design, but a focused semi linear narrative, as opposed to your standard rot.
usually with a lot of verticality and higher density in the environments compared to rpgs.
Multiple points of entry for objectives, dependent on which skills you have and what level they're at.
Accommodates different play-styles (stealth, action, strategy/traps, hacking/spellcasting)
Audio log and or written lore that help point out objectives and alternative routes
Vents, lots of vents.

cowbanana · Dec 25, 2019

It takes a lot of talent to make them and unfortunately it's a commercial gamble to create these games as it's not a genre with mass appeal.

mouzone · Dec 25, 2019

Wait, how do we know that Cyberpunk 2077 is an immersive sim?

Why isn't there more Immersive Sims?

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account

Community Resettler

Local Horror Enthusiast

User requested account closure

Local Horror Enthusiast

alt account