Why is there so much blowback from people when asking for more gender & ethnic diversity in games?

[Deleted member 2809]

The most confusing thing to me is there are minorities who hate minority cast in films and games.

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Eh, it happens
I've noticed my gf is much more critical of actresses in shows and movies she watches than actors
Also don't believe everything you read on the internet, it's easy for people to pretend to be a minority to spout hot takes that go against minorities' interests. See fake black or female twitter accounts etc.

 

[Deleted member 49319]

Eh, it happens
I've noticed my gf is much more critical of actresses in shows and movies she watches than actors
Also don't believe everything you read on the internet, it's easy for people to pretend to be a minority to spout hot takes that go against minorities' interests. See fake black or female twitter accounts etc.

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Aha, my gf is hyper critical of women saying misogynist stuff (much more than men) to the level she thinks herself misogynist.

And I was talking about real minorities with hateful thoughts. I don't want go to details, it's too embarrassing for me to just retell.

 

[Neoxon]

The most confusing thing to me is there are minorities who hate minority cast in films and games.

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I'm actually mentioned this earlier, & it's part of the reason why I made this thread.

 

[Deleted member 3010]

People hate change and we're going through a generational change were people of all kind of races, sexual orientations and genders are being accepted, slowly, into the mainstream medias.

A little bit of this, and a little bit of people being fucking racists, xenophobic, transphobic and such. I like to believe those that behave like this online are a very vocal minority, but I'd be lying to myself and put humanity on a higher pedestal than it deserves.

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

I have zero issues with gender and ethnic representation in games. A couple of examples:

- Seeing that ginger white protagonist in the new Star Wars game turned me off from the game. Looks so boring.
- Celeste was my favourite game last year, and this year's revelation about the character being trans was spectacular.

But... I don't like it when fans demand representation and diversity from game creators. It is a conversation that can be really useful, but at the end, I want the creators to decide what best serves their game. I will then vote with my wallet if it interests me or not. Comments about representation in games like Smash Bros, I find them ridiculous. Maybe I'm a privileged white male as well, I dunno.

 

[Destruction]

People (especially ones at the top) generally don't like competition that they can not control because they believe that it could put them at a disadvantage.

 

[Deleted member 2809]

- Celeste was my favourite game last year, and this year's revelation about the character being trans was spectacular.

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Huh?
Guess I missed something. I always kinda suspected it while playing but then it wasn't really explored. There is some internal conflict stuff but it didn't go there eventually.

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

Huh?
Guess I missed something. I always kinda suspected it while playing but then it wasn't really explored. There is some internal conflict stuff but it didn't go there eventually.

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It was in the last batch of DLC. It was very subtle but I think it has been semi-confirmed. The way they handle it was awesome, imo.

 

[Jakke_Koala]

When i have a choice, i always play the female protagonist. If it's a character creator, mostly a black woman.
My daughter asked me why i always chose women when playing (we were playing AC:Odyssey) and told her that if i do this, the people that make the game notice and will therefor make more games where we can play as women, so she has more games growing up which she can relate to.

To answer your question: Yeah, it looks like there are a lot of narrow minded racist/mysoginist/transphobic people in the mainstream gaming community.

 

[Kyuuji]

Huh?
Guess I missed something. I always kinda suspected it while playing but then it wasn't really explored. There is some internal conflict stuff but it didn't go there eventually.

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[Deleted member 2809]

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Yeah saw these after googling a bit.

 

[Kyuuji]

Yeah saw these after googling a bit.

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Madeline is awesome 😊💜

 

[pargonta]

I staunchly advocate for "let the developers do what they want" in these types of discussions, simply to remind the player audience that they are just the consumer and not the creator. but I agree, you can also protest/advocate or let your opinions known so that perhaps the development team will change. its not one or the other

 

[skillzilla81]

I have zero issues with gender and ethnic representation in games. A couple of examples:

- Seeing that ginger white protagonist in the new Star Wars game turned me off from the game. Looks so boring.
- Celeste was my favourite game last year, and this year's revelation about the character being trans was spectacular.

But... I don't like it when fans demand representation and diversity from game creators. It is a conversation that can be really useful, but at the end, I want the creators to decide what best serves their game. I will then vote with my wallet if it interests me or not. Comments about representation in games like Smash Bros, I find them ridiculous. Maybe I'm a privileged white male as well, I dunno.

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Yeah, because we all know change happens when people shut up about wanting things.

"I don't like when fans demand to see themselves."

Yes, white privilege checks out.

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

Yeah, because we all know change happens when people shut up about wanting things.

"I don't like when fans demand to see themselves."

Yes, white privilege checks out.

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Change actually happens when diversity is increased from the creator's perspective, imo. See my example about Celeste: many people from the dev team are gender agnostic or trans, and look how beautifully they have handled a subject matter that is important for them. Forced diversity is a bad thing in my opinion, and the opposite is also bad. "Make a character white because the audience wants it" is as crap as "make him/her black because the audience wants it". It's not a hard concept to grasp really, but it can be debated.

Blaming or calling someone names is also easy, having a discussion is, sometimes, not.

 

[skillzilla81]

Change actually happens when diversity is increased from the creator's perspective, imo. See my example about Celeste: many people from the dev team are gender agnostic or trans, and look how beautifully they have handled a subject matter that is important for them. Forced diversity is a bad thing in my opinion, and the opposite is also bad. "Make a character white because the audience wants it" is as crap as "make him/her black because the audience wants it". It's not a hard concept to grasp really, but it can be debated.

Blaming or calling someone names is also easy, having a discussion is, sometimes, not.

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That you think these things are equal says it all. Yes, people from diverse backgrounds is also a way change happens, but saying that should be the way it happens ignores the numerous reasons why people from these backgrounds aren't making, or able to make, games in the first place.

But you right, these discussions are hard, and a lot of it is because we're tired of justifying wanting to see ourselves to people like you. Don't bother responding. You'll say the same tired nonsense we've all heard before.

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

That you think these things are equal says it all. Yes, people from diverse backgrounds is also a way change happens, but saying that should be the way it happens ignores the numerous reasons why people from these backgrounds aren't making, or able to make, games in the first place.

But you right, these discussions are hard, and a lot of it is because we're tired of justifying wanting to see ourselves to people like you. Don't bother responding. You'll say the same tired nonsense we've all heard before.

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Some harmless advice: try to be less aggressive and condescending. I know the subject matter can feel more personal to you, but your response does more harm to your cause than good.

Imo people from diverse backgrounds is not also a way change happens as you mention, it is THE way. Spike Lee's movies did more for the black community than 100.000 angry rants from people like you about diversity and representation. The key - and the difficulty - is to have more Spike Lee's in cinema, games, [enter your favourite art], and giving them a voice. Their work will do the rest. The She-Ra Netflix TV series is another perfect example of how this works. Did a vocal community play a part in its creation? Probably, and this is good! But don't go to Peter Laird and Kevin Eastman and demand that they turn one of the ninja turtles gay, so the community can feel happy about it. Fuck that shit, that's harassment.

And yes, you should not interfere with a creator's voice just for diversity's sake. It's like going to Martin Scorcese and demanding that his next movie has a black star for a lead because he has been using white actors for too long a time. Shit sounds ridiculous even by reading it loud.

 

[SofNascimento]

I've taken quite a lot of flak for saying I look games with female protagonists with more enthusiasm than with male ones. And it's not like I demand it or don't buy game with male protagonist... I just think for some people it's hard to understand this might matter to you.

 

[Another]

Yeah, because we all know change happens when people shut up about wanting things.

"I don't like when fans demand to see themselves."

Yes, white privilege checks out.

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I find the idea that "what people want" should be taken into consideration when making any work of art or personal expression really disturbing. I really find myself agreeing with the member you quoted in some aspects. Representation should always be something the industry should be striving towards, but as a minority myself (multiple times over) I'm really not a fan of underdeveloped, shallow and inconsequential token characters being shoved into games just to appease twitter so I believe it's something that should come from a real place with the motivations to back it up rather than done out of fear or because of consumer pressure. Good repersentation needs to be taken into consideration and taken seriously from day 1 if it is to be done right, otherwise you end up with Crash instead of Moonlight.

The attitude doesn't help get your point across btw, get rid of it. Almost like a parable regarding what was just said... actually engaging someone in conversation is much harder but is much more effective than carpet bombing them with jaded impatience.

 

[skillzilla81]

I find the idea that "what people want" should be taken into consideration when making any work of art or personal expression really disturbing. I really find myself agreeing with the member you quoted in some aspects. Representation should always be something the industry should be striving towards, but as a minority myself (multiple times over) I'm really not a fan of underdeveloped, shallow and inconsequential token characters being shoved into games just to appease twitter so I believe it's something that should come from a real place with the motivations to back it up rather than done out of fear or because of consumer pressure. Good repersentation needs to be taken into consideration and taken seriously from day 1 if it is to be done right, otherwise you end up with Crash instead of Moonlight.

The attitude doesn't help get your point across btw, get rid of it. Almost like a parable regarding what was just said... actually engaging someone in conversation is much harder but is much more effective than carpet bombing them with jaded impatience.

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Not every opinion is worth engaging. Not everybody is asking for characters like Joel, but black. People are just asking for characters to, you know, be in these games. At all. Visibly. Allowing us to control them. That gets turned into needing to justify a threshold of quality for some reason, even though the same isn't true for white characters.

And you know...if you're putting out a product for consumers, then "What people want" is always going to be front and center. And as long as they're asking for us to pay for this shit, then people can and should comment on the type of content they want to see.

So, nah, you can hold that. My attitude regarding people upholding whiteness as the default will remain the same.

 

[Faustek]

Some harmless advice: try to be less aggressive and condescending. I know the subject matter can feel more personal to you, but your response does more harm to your cause than good.

Imo people from diverse backgrounds is not also a way change happens as you mention, it is THE way. Spike Lee's movies did more for the black community than 100.000 angry rants from people like you about diversity and representation. The key - and the difficulty - is to have more Spike Lee's in cinema, games, [enter your favourite art], and giving them a voice. Their work will do the rest. The She-Ra Netflix TV series is another perfect example of how this works. Did a vocal community play a part in its creation? Probably, and this is good! But don't go to Peter Laird and Kevin Eastman and demand that they turn one of the ninja turtles gay, so the community can feel happy about it. Fuck that shit, that's harassment.

And yes, you should not interfere with a creator's voice just for diversity's sake. It's like going to Martin Scorcese and demanding that his next movie has a black star for a lead because he has been using white actors for too long a time. Shit sounds ridiculous even by reading it loud.

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So I've read your input since "demand". To "forced" to stop being angry.
You on some fuck shit man, some real ass fuck shit and I don't know how to respond without calling you on your fuckery which apparently is a bad thing.
Nah, you on some fuck shit. I am gonna be aggressive and say it again, you on some fuck shit.
You basically saying that people who are not allowed to exist in this medium should come in and keep on asking nicely while kissing some ass. Which we've done since forever to keep on doing the same shit that doesn't work. The fuck you on about or you just that stupid? Or ignorant? You take your pick because I think you just full of shit here.
Go back to your friend zone and stop with the fuckery.

Another since when was a space opera needed to even just exist? So many protagonist are shallow shells made to represent the player. Mute machines that have no input but apparently it's to much for one of those cutouts to just be not white or even a choice?

Shit smh

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

You basically saying that people who are not allowed to exist in this medium should come in and keep on asking nicely while kissing some ass. Which we've done since forever to keep on doing the same shit that doesn't work. The fuck you on about or you just that stupid? Or ignorant? You take your pick because I think you just full of shit here.

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Stop interpreting stuff the way it fits your conviction. I said something very specific, you are saying something different. Shout out violently for the creators that are there to express what you are aligned with. Support them in any way you can - above most else with your money. It will never be easy - hell, it's still not easy for people like Spike Lee, and he is part of the establishment now. But don't force creators to change their creations to serve your purpose, that's fucked up.

And jesus, what kind of attitude is that in a public forum? It makes for an embarrassing conversation - again, it makes more harm than good, presents your argument as immature and insubstantial.

 

[Faustek]

Stop interpreting stuff the way it fits your conviction. I said something very specific, you are saying something different. Shout out violently for the creators that are there to express what you are aligned with. Support them in any way you can - above most else with your money. It will never be easy - hell, it's still not easy for people like Spike Lee, and he is part of the establishment now. But don't force creators to change their creations to serve your purpose, that's fucked up.

And jesus, what kind of attitude is that in a public forum? It makes for an embarrassing conversation - again, it makes more harm than good, presents your argument as immature and insubstantial.

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We be tap dancing, we be asking nice, we be voting with our wallet. Yeah gotta be real hard to understand that when shit doesn't work you get loud.
You still on some fuck shit.

Edit: when I think about it we ain't even loud. That was a wrong choice of words. Tired of it? Yeah but loud? Y'all some weak in the knees people if you think this loud. Smh.

 

[Another]

People are just asking for characters to, you know, be in these games. At all. Visibly.

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See, this is where problems start popping up, though... I'm "people" and I have no interest in such things. At all. I don't want representation if all it brings with it is visibility. I want it to be done properly or not at all. As a gay woman, I'm delighted to see characters like Ellie getting the spotlight since it was executed properly and tastefully, but this notion that even just "being there" would at least be something when we've had such recent reminders of how much more can be done with the subject when tackled properly is depressing.

Allowing us to control them. That gets turned into needing to justify a threshold of quality for some reason, even though the same isn't true for white characters.

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I can see where they're coming from, though... people tend to get uncomfortable working outside of what they know and the material usually fails to resonate, I've seen enough ridiculous "sassy black woman" ( we get shat on hardcore) characters to know there's at least (aadmittedly flawed) some logic to what they're saying! Bottom line seems to be that since it's not a priority, it will get mishandled, especially so if it requires twice the effort.

And you know...if you're putting out a product for consumers, then "What people want" is always going to be front and center. And as long as they're asking for us to pay for this shit, then people can and should comment on the type of content they want to see.

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I see where you're coming from but I fundamentally disagree on this one. People can and should comment on their preferences, absolute truth. I personally believe it should hold as little influence as possible over the creative process, though. Maybe it's the lit/film buff in me but art that merely panders and caters to it's audience rarely survives the test of time and is more often than not completely forgotten in favor of more selfishly constructed and driven works. Video Games are still a very young medium, we've barely broken 40 years in earnest and there's still plenty to learn about the possibility space the medium offers, but even if coming full bloom during late stage capitalism has forced the AAA side of the industry to become a haven of pandering and trendchasing I believe we've barely even scratched the surface.

So, nah, you can hold that. My attitude regarding people upholding whiteness as the default will remain the same.

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Hey, you do you, but "upholding whiteness as the default" is a rather reductive take from what you guys were discussing.

 

[TimeFire]

I don't have much to contribute, but having various industry developers and insiders posting on this thread is what makes ResetEra special to me.

Great thread, Neoxon

 

[Weltall Zero]

I read an article a few days ago, where it says "minorities becoming equal means whites feel that they are losing their superiority/have to give up rights"
And this is the root of everything.

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The concept of "giving up rights" to social justice reminds me of an ancient irc conversation where someone had downloaded a file off someone else, then noticed they were downloading the same file off them, asked them what the hell they were doing, and they replied "I'm getting back my file". :D

 

[Ryouji Gunblade]

We need way more minority developers and their visions for games. But then shitty people will still call that "forced" because of course they hate changing the status quo.

 

[Another]

Another since when was a space opera needed to even just exist? So many protagonist are shallow shells made to represent the player. Mute machines that have no input but apparently it's to much for one of those cutouts to just be not white or even a choice?

Shit smh

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Sorry, this got lost in the shuffle only noticed it now... -.-'

Another since when was a space opera needed to even just exist?

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Since never, but that type of representation is something that I personally don't understand the appeal of.

So many protagonist are shallow shells made to represent the player. Mute machines that have no input but apparently it's to much for one of those cutouts to just be not white or even a choice?

Shit smh

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Has the industry regressed tremendously in the last couple of years or something? I mean this in the sense that this type of protagonist you speak of is one I associate with there being a choice. Maybe the games I play the most just happen to skewer in the right direction incidentally and are clouding my perception, but I've been playing as a black~ish woman in The Outer Worlds and have done so for every Soulsborne game except Sekiro and all Monster Hunters (my two favorite "series"), hell even as far as Splatoon is concerned I've been rocking someone who resembles myself since day 1, Smash is probably the only game I play on a daily basis that is problematic in this regard! Silent shell protagonists don't seem like a problematic area for me from my experience, is my point... or did I misunderstand what you meant?

 

[Kyuuji]

Some harmless advice: try to be less aggressive and condescending.

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I know the subject matter can feel more personal to you, but your response does more harm to your cause than good.

Click to shrink...

Spike Lee's movies did more for the black community than 100.000 angry rants from people like you about diversity and representation.

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And jesus, what kind of attitude is that in a public forum? It makes for an embarrassing conversation - again, it makes more harm than good, presents your argument as immature and insubstantial.

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[skillzilla81]

Y'all might want to be careful with these dog whistles. They're getting pretty loud.

 

[KyouG]

So I've read your input since "demand". To "forced" to stop being angry.
You on some fuck shit man, some real ass fuck shit and I don't know how to respond without calling you on your fuckery which apparently is a bad thing.
Nah, you on some fuck shit. I am gonna be aggressive and say it again, you on some fuck shit.
You basically saying that people who are not allowed to exist in this medium should come in and keep on asking nicely while kissing some ass. Which we've done since forever to keep on doing the same shit that doesn't work. The fuck you on about or you just that stupid? Or ignorant? You take your pick because I think you just full of shit here.
Go back to your friend zone and stop with the fuckery.

Another since when was a space opera needed to even just exist? So many protagonist are shallow shells made to represent the player. Mute machines that have no input but apparently it's to much for one of those cutouts to just be not white or even a choice?

Shit smh

Click to shrink...

We be tap dancing, we be asking nice, we be voting with our wallet. Yeah gotta be real hard to understand that when shit doesn't work you get loud.
You still on some fuck shit.

Edit: when I think about it we ain't even loud. That was a wrong choice of words. Tired of it? Yeah but loud? Y'all some weak in the knees people if you think this loud. Smh.

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Can I just say you fully expressed my feelings when it comes to folks like Annoying and Another? We're always portrayed as doing it "wrong" somehow, and if we'd just ask the "right" way, we'd be allowed to sit at the table. We just gotta be patient and "civilized" like "decent folk".

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Representation done "right" is horse shit. I'm sorry but I am not going to get along with people who believe this.

An amazing well written character has never beem the bar for any piece of media to exist. So it being the bar for a minority character to exist is fucking dumb full stop.

That's literally the end of the conversation. You don't have to play games that don't have developed characters if you don't want to, that's never been the point. Stop bringing it up, it's horse shit.

 

[Strike]

Because when you're privileged, any attempt at equality feels like oppression.

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/thread

Those people are always a vocal minority.

 

[Listai]

Because when you're privileged, any attempt at equality feels like oppression.

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aaand we're done.

 

[Faustek]

Btw since when have devs been forced to make characters brown or female? We have multiple instances in entertainment where money people try and have successfully forced the creators to not have a brown person. Skeeter, Charlie in the chocolate factory, dontnod games, or how many were meant to be women or feature women but got denied because titties? We know this, we've been told but all I hear from the "devs" that say they tried to force their game to be more inclusive is from trash that have a world view where nothing but white and male is right. They have literally whined about the "SJW" agenda. Overtly sexualized women, no matter the age, is also ok.

Another you're doing that now. Playing the empty shell. That's the bare minimum. Ofc I wan't my Kori-Odan with Fallen Order money but just having that empty shell and nothing else around? You don't need a story set in central africa bc 1000 to have black or brown characters around you. You don't need to have a reason for Wanda that sells potions to be brown, you don't need a reason for just being a different skin color or gender.

 

[Riskbreaker]

because gamers are racist/sexist fuckwads

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Pretty much this.

Don't really expect them to do the right thing.

 

[Another]

Can I just say you fully expressed my feelings when it comes to folks like Annoying and Another? We're always portrayed as doing it "wrong" somehow, and if we'd just ask the "right" way, we'd be allowed to sit at the table. We just gotta be patient and "civilized" like "decent folk".

Click to shrink...

This shit has nothing to do with being civilized and decent (I'm a mixed race lesbian stoner farmer in my mid 30s living in a devout catholic country that's 95% white, get real), it's about realizing that, historically speaking, rushing progress never has and never will work without there being some fallout so I'd much rather we start handling representation properly and with the correct approach than diversity being everywhere but it being hollow and meaningless. Craftsmanship takes it's time... we all want change and we want it right now but that's not how it works, it just isn't.

 

[80s Old School]

Because when you're privileged, any attempt at equality feels like oppression.

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I wouldn't even say that, I think privileged people fear being in the other side, because they know (from their actions) or have seen/heard what's it's Ike to not be in a position of power. Look at a name like "white genocide" is coded with references to minorities literally being destroyed my the dominant group.

 

[Another]

Representation done "right" is horse shit. I'm sorry but I am not going to get along with people who believe this.

An amazing well written character has never beem the bar for any piece of media to exist. So it being the bar for a minority character to exist is fucking dumb full stop.

That's literally the end of the conversation. You don't have to play games that don't have developed characters if you don't want to, that's never been the point. Stop bringing it up, it's horse shit.

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Different ways of seeing things. Bourgeouis-woke vs beat generation-woke, if you must.

In my opinion, characters just existing is pointless. I understand it's important for alot of people and as such it must be taken into account, but it isn't any more horse shit than thinking just dumping minorities everywhere is actually doing anything if they're inconsequential to the story.

 

[Melhadf]

We're slowly getting to the point where non white, straight, cis, male main chars having a single trait swapped out is almost normal.... almost.
Once two or more traits from the "standard" start to appear then they start to yell about it being the end of them.

And then there is the huge transphobic reaction to any non-binary/trans character that always appears... even amongst the LGBT community. People are weird!

 

[Khezu]

Years ago, it honestly felt like a lot of the straight white male gamers were against it mainly because they saw gaming as their identity, and they saw people asking for diversity as an attack on their favorite game, so they had to rush in to defend it.

They really couldn't handle having their favorite games criticized, especially when it comes to something that they didn't understand or didn't care about.

Then the internet or people on the internet used the awkward nerd rage as a way to radicalize them into actually being racist fuck bags.

Or maybe they were always racist fuck bags and were just better at hiding it back then, I don't know.

Shit sucks.

 

[LumberPanda]

It's not just that privileged people "feel oppressed by equality". Yes gaming is predominantly privileged straight men (gaming is expensive and straight men make the most money - not a coincidence), but there's something distinct about the gaming community when it comes to this compared to other communities of equally privileged groups.

Gaming attracts social outcasts. Nobody from these hateful subgroups feel genuinely good or proud about themselves. So these hateful subgroups of the gaming community have built up this belief that gaming is their safe space, their identity, and if anybody from "outside" is able to "get in" (i.e. women and minorities) then that invalidates who they are as people. When developers, who aren't composed of 100% social outcasts, add women or trans characters to their games these subgroups make conspiracy theories about forced diversity because without those conspiracy theories then they have to face the cognitive dissonance that the reason they're social outcasts is because of themselves.

And that's why when GG happened alt-right shitholes jumped at recruiting gamers immediately. The same thing happened in the 90s with the skinhead movement - they targeted social outcasts and turned them into violent neo-nazis. These individuals never learned empathy through experience, and probably haven't sincerely and genuinely talked to a minority person ever.

 

[Another]

Another you're doing that now. Playing the empty shell. That's the bare minimum. Ofc I wan't my Kori-Odan with Fallen Order money but just having that empty shell and nothing else around? You don't need a story set in central africa bc 1000 to have black or brown characters around you. You don't need to have a reason for Wanda that sells potions to be brown, you don't need a reason for just being a different skin color or gender.

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Agreed... if you thought that's what I meant, it wasn't. My point is that I myself see such efforts at representation as superfluous, as in if the right game comes along and delivers the High Noon/Johnny Guitar equivalent to representation's McCarthyis then the effect you want will become commonplace. There's usually a watershed moment for such efforts where a shining beacon crystalizes the formula and it becomes commonplace and interchangeable.
Brute forcing it can work perfectly okay for some games (gameplay driven affairs, usually my jam) but it will completely fail to work with others because companies are only seeking to maximize profits and sway public opinion by capitalizing on hot button trendy issues and most times it won't be a labour of love and will therefore be ignorantly implemented and potentially detrimental to the cause.

I will agree that even for narrative driven games... in most cases changing the protag's ethnicity (or at least being given the option to do so) would be completely inconsequential and it is hard to see that at the very least the option of representation hasn't been implemented, even if in a crude fashion.

 

[Faustek]

Yeah I just saw the "Rushed progress" and "Bourgeouis-woke vs beat generation-woke".
Never fails to disappoint me. I'm out.

 

[RedRum]

There shouldn't be, but I think with reactions to games like Fallen Order, it tends to feed overreactions. With that being said, I thought calling the guy that did the face and mo-cap for the game a "generic white guy" was a bit overboard. Couldn't imagine being that guy and hearing that.

 

[NoName999]

Some harmless advice: try to be less aggressive and condescending. I know the subject matter can feel more personal to you, but your response does more harm to your cause than good.

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We still have people tone policing in 2019!

 

[Deleted member 33533]

I don't think the "gamers are just racist bigots" does a good job of explaining this. If that were the case, we wouldn't see games with minorities/women not only being met with positive reception but also selling well.

The forced diversity criticism certainly holds wait imo. There are cases where developers try to include a minority to appeal to the people that advocate for that type of things and we end up with negative representations. These cis white men are trying to write about minority problems that they can't relate to and it turns into a mess. As a black man, I would prefer no black characters over another shitty stereotype.

There is only one way to solve this problem and it's to have non-privileged groups writing about the things that they can relate to.

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I don't know, does every black character in a game need to represent unique black issues? Can't they just be a character? A vast majority of video game stories are not gonna be that deep.

 

[skillzilla81]

I don't know, does every black character in a game need to represent unique black issues? Can't they just be a character? A vast majority of video game stories are not gonna be that deep.

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Right? Just goes back to people needing to justify our existence in games. Stories aren't typically focused around these types of things in games. They can be, and thatd be great if written well, but they're not...soooooooo, why are people always using this as an excuse?

 

[daegan]

what really gets me about the direction this is on this page (I haven't gone through the rest yet) is when people seriously worry that sometimes a Black/brown/gay/trans/etc character is just thrown into a game for ethereal brownie points but like, if/when that happens that character will be written like shit and HOO writing any kind of non-white/non-cis/non-hetero character is a FUCKING GUARANTEE that EEEEEEEVERYONE will know if you write them like shit because the critics tuned into that happen to be widely the best and most interesting critics gaming has right now

further I think a lot of people who enjoy the same privilege I do take any criticism as "I TOTALLY HATED IT AND IT SHOULDN'T EXIST AT ALL" which is why they should all be forced to read these carolyn petit tweets from earlier today



deep apologies if this has been in the thread already, but I see people trying to bury this same kind of sentiment deep in their posts and it's just...no

 

[Ra]

This shit has nothing to do with being civilized and decent (I'm a mixed race lesbian stoner farmer in my mid 30s living in a devout catholic country that's 95% white, get real), it's about realizing that, historically speaking, rushing progress never has and never will work without there being some fallout so I'd much rather we start handling representation properly and with the correct approach than diversity being everywhere but it being hollow and meaningless. Craftsmanship takes it's time... we all want change and we want it right now but that's not how it works, it just isn't.

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Sit quietly and peacefully until the white man feels like just handing it to you is a coward's fantasy that will never EVER come to fruition.

History exists so we can follow its examples. Make noise or earn nothing.