Why is there so much blowback from people when asking for more gender & ethnic diversity in games?

[Crimsonskies]

Hollywood is actually guilty of promoting white protagonists in movies and the shitty way they marketed star wars in China with John Boyegas face made smaller on the poster.

This is about money and appeasing certain markets.

The racism in certain countries in Asia is unbelievable ask anyone not white who goes to China, Korea or Japan I am mixed and have received a ton of shit because of my Hispanic heritage (I am half white on my mothers side).

I have been denied entry to places because of my ethnic background.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Straight white maleness shouldn't be the default whereas other ethnicity or sexuality needs to be explained. Why can't other types of people just be, just like they are in the real world?

Click to shrink...

This is something I actually asked myself while I was working on my novel's character outlines. I went down my list of primary characters and asked myself "does this character need to be a straight white man?"

Overwhelmingly, aside from the two characters whose arcs were ABOUT privilege, the answer to that question was "no".

 

[oni-link]

I just dont think people like things to be forced

if someone's vision is to make this game, with this color, and with a trans character, like tell me why, then great. That is their vision.

But a push for devs in general to make these types of specific games, just to reach a certain quota of ethnicity, its just meh. There are inclusive games, and more games being made that are more inclusive, and with more variety of ranges, and those are devs with that in mind as part of their vision that fits their specific games

Click to shrink...

It's never that simple though

People might not have considered minorities or that their games lacked diversity in the past, and then as people talk about it more, they decide to take that on board going forward

That doesn't mean they're shoehorning women and minorities into games, it's probably just a conscious effort to be inclusive, which is never a bad thing

But that is neither them compromising some grand vision, nor is it adding them in for the sake of it

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Not sure that's quite right. It's more like a lack of empathy and an inability to recognize that what doesn't matter to you might matter deeply to someone else. These are often the same people who will say things like "I'm colorblind, race doesn't make a difference to me" without realizing that for people of color, race makes a difference every day and they don't get to choose otherwise.

Click to shrink...

This seems like a potential origin of those feelings, but it goes beyond a lack of caring or empathy—those people are actively hostile to the mere notion of inclusivity let alone the actual implementation.

For people who are merely not interested n (representational) diversity, having a diverse cast in a game should simply be aesthetics to them. Judging by the hate the subject often gets, it's much more than that.

 

[Deleted member 47076]

I just dont think people like things to be forced

if someone's vision is to make this game, with this color, and with a trans character, like tell me why, then great. That is their vision.

But a push for devs in general to make these types of specific games, just to reach a certain quota of ethnicity, its just meh. There are inclusive games, and more games being made that are more inclusive, and with more variety of ranges, and those are devs with that in mind as part of their vision that fits their specific games

Click to shrink...

Exactly. Developers should be allowed to create what they want whether that is a diverse cast of characters or a non-diverse one.

Honestly I've found some of the blowback at games like FF XV (which had an all-male cast) to be just as disrespectful as blowback at games with diversity. Hateful entitlement is cringe either way.

 

[Deleted member 8852]

I just dislike entitlement, no matter where it comes from.

 

[Teeny]

im not saying they shoulnt be lol. And idk, i think we have gotten farther away from just straight white maleness to be honest. A lot of games feature female protagonists, and a lot of games let you create the character you want

Click to shrink...

You said:

" if someone's vision is to make this game, with this color, and with a trans character, like tell me why, then great"

I'm sorry if I took the bolded out of context.

I think that things have changed for the better in terms of what devs have been doing and, crucially, what pubs have allowed them to do. But there is a long way to go.

Character creators can offer up their own set of problems - I know the limited (and often stereotypical) selection of black hair styles has been an issue for some, for example.

 

[Ploid 6.0]

Because when you're privileged, any attempt at equality feels like oppression.

Click to shrink...

This.

 

[SENPAIatLARGE]

Here's the thing- games with diverse leads/ casts still sell incredibly well if they are big AAA productions. The "gamers are bigots" narrative falls apart when it's clear by purchasing habits that they gravitate to whatever the popular big budget games are regardless of diversity as in the case of Overwatch, Apex Legends, Horizon Zero Dawn, Battlefield 1, Assasins Creed Origins, League of Legends, Fortnite, etc...
As a black guy, I'm not enthused by "diversity" in games if the developers themselves aren't diverse. To me, "forced diversity" occurs when a bunch of cis white men from LA add token POCs or LGBTQ+ representation to be "woke". If you are going to have diverse casts, you need to back it up in the studio.

 

[Messofanego]

White genocide. Not kidding, a lot of white folks believe that equality and representation of minorities leads to their extinction just because they might not dominate every space anymore.

Anyway, if you're interested in an hour-long video essay series about the infestation of the alt-right/neo nazis into gaming, watch Ian Danskin's "Why Are You So Angry" series:

 

[cnorwood]

because gamers are racist/sexist fuckwads

Click to shrink...

All high investment entertainment primarily stars white people (except music and sports)this is not just a gamer problem

 

[jorgejjvr]

You said:

" if someone's vision is to make this game, with this color, and with a trans character, like tell me why, then great"

I'm sorry if I took the bolded out of context.

I think that things have changed for the better in terms of what devs have been doing and, crucially, what pubs have allowed them to do. But there is a long way to go.

Character creators can offer up their own set of problems - I know the limited (and often stereotypical) selection of black hair styles has been an issue for some, for example.

Click to shrink...

I mean, you can never ever please everyone

you cant ever have all the hair colors, all facial features, all the quirks to fit everyone. I am sure devs are doing their best to be honest

 

[jschreier]

This seems like a potential origin of those feelings, but it goes beyond a lack of caring or empathy—those people are actively hostile to the mere notion of inclusivity let alone the actual implementation.

Click to shrink...

Yeah actively absorbing and participating in forums of likeminded shitheels helps convince a lot of these people that SJWs are the source of all their woes. Not to mention regularly getting brain-poisoned by the YouTube outrage machine. The parallels to Trump supporters are pretty uncanny (and it's a lot of the same people).

 

[Deleted member 44122]

because forced diversity feels awkward

 

[PlanetSmasher]

You said:

" if someone's vision is to make this game, with this color, and with a trans character, like tell me why, then great"

I'm sorry if I took the bolded out of context.

I think that things have changed for the better in terms of what devs have been doing and, crucially, what pubs have allowed them to do. But there is a long way to go.

Character creators can offer up their own set of problems - I know the limited (and often stereotypical) selection of black hair styles has been an issue for some, for example.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, the fact that if you're creating a black character in games it's either "ridiculously over-the-top dreadlocks" or "afro" certainly stands out, especially with the level of care developers put into modeling hairstyles no one will ever use.

Like, does every RPG with a character creator need six different kinds of fauxhawk hairstyles with shaved sides? Is the Richard Spencer/Hitler Youth look THAT popular nowadays?

 

[Asbsand]

I feel like while the push is often done out of simple fairness it's not incentivized frequently enough for its goodness to games production or games content. Diversity is a break away from the tired, tested and proven ideas both within game worlds, their stories and among developers. By bringing in people of more ethnicities you get broader perspectives and for good measure it also makes you avoid immature and respectless decisions on behalf of different cultures. There's a lot of media/fiction tropes that are stuck in casual racism and I'm always disappointed when you get those moments in games. There's a lot that hasn't been explored and examined narratively, or through gamification about the intersection of cultures.

Maybe not in the Sense8's over the top fashion, but I would like to see more like an RPG companion talking about growing his everyday schooling but growing up with japanese manners in the US or something to allude to that kind of idea.

There's a lot of sociological aspects to diversity that I would like to see explored in games rather than avoiding them or pretending diversity doesn't exist.

Also, an original IP with a black protagonist who's the badass hero with a conflicted past. Don't care if male or female but honestly why can't that just happen? I would be interested, even though I'm white.

 

[KalBalboa]

because forced diversity feels awkward

Click to shrink...

"Forced?"

 

[Messofanego]

As a black guy, I'm not enthused by "diversity" in games if the developers themselves aren't diverse. To me, "forced diversity" occurs when a bunch of cis white men from LA add token POCs or LGBTQ+ representation to be "woke". If you are going to have diverse casts, you need to back it up in the studio.

Click to shrink...

That takes time, and they're not mutually exclusive but I'm agreed that diversity needs to be backed up behind the game. As long as those cis white men get the representative members involved in consulting and higher up roles like writing, it's fine. Either way, if the representation falls flat and into stereotypes, they will be called out.

 

[Deleted member 33533]

For basically three decades, gaming has been the domain of straight white men between the ages of 10 and 40 of average+ income. The primary demographic for gaming for a LONG time was basically people who didn't need to think about their place in the world because they were essentially the socio-economic "default" that the American economic and social system is based around.

And when those people are the primary demographic, they also tend to be the people MAKING games, because those kids grow up to want to be developers too. So you had gamers and game developers all serving one niche, making games for people who look like them.

Now that the field is more diverse and there's a wider array of voices creating games, the people who haven't caught up with the times feel like they're being attacked now that they're not being catered to exclusively.

Click to shrink...

This is it. They feel attacked in two ways: that their space is being invaded/taken away and the idea that others are calling them bad people for simply being the group that has been catered to this whole time. That's why people will get so defensive and aggressive when diversity is brought up in a game and fight it. They think it's a threat to their status quo. Of course there has to be bigotry there too. No matter how you spin it, if you're mad that people want some diversity in games then you really need to reflect on why that is.

I just dont think people like things to be forced

if someone's vision is to make this game, with this color, and with a trans character, like tell me why, then great. That is their vision.

But a push for devs in general to make these types of specific games, just to reach a certain quota of ethnicity, its just meh. There are inclusive games, and more games being made that are more inclusive, and with more variety of ranges, and those are devs with that in mind as part of their vision that fits their specific games

Click to shrink...

That's the problem. These kinds of people have a narrow world view. A world view that straight white male perspectives are the default because that's their world view. They never stop to consider that in all parts of the world there are other perspectives that aren't straight, white and male by default.

So while you can fill a video game with a cast of white characters and no one bats an eye, the moment you introduce a black character outside the expected, cliche setting/role or reveal a specific character is gay without that character having obvious and stereotypical traits you have people saying "this is forced" "this is to fulfill a quota/agenda."

You want a dev to explain their vision. You want them to tell you why a trans character is trans. Ok but have you ever asked why Nathan Drake, for example, is white? Had the thought ever crossed your mind or does it just seem like he belongs even without justification for being there? Ask yourself why you would want or need to know why a character is trans. A trans person doesn't need to justify why they exist in real life. Video games don't need to either. After all video games can give us the wildest fantasies that we readily accept yet many gamers can't seem to accept something based on reality without a proper and logical explanation. Why?

 

[Anko]

because forced diversity feels awkward

Click to shrink...

So when is diversity ever not forced in the eyes of those against it?

 

[Deleted member 3815]

Three simple word;

White Male Privilege.

Because when you're privileged, any attempt at equality feels like oppression.

Click to shrink...

This pretty much, white men are so used to being on top and pandered to. That any attempt to shift that and lower the barrier and they act like they are the wounded oppressed person.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

"Forced?"

Click to shrink...

If the character isn't a white 3-=year-old dude, it's "forced."

Even if the game takes place in, say, São Paulo

 

[jschreier]

because forced diversity feels awkward

Click to shrink...

"Forced diversity" is a mostly white college finding the one black student to photograph for their admissions pamphlets, not game developers trying to make their art represent the real world.

 

[SturokBGD]

You're taking about people that break into hives at the thought of an options menu.

 

[It’s Time To Go]

You know why OP.

 

[JahIthBer]

Elephant in the room is no one wants to talk about japan's issue when it comes to this, you have to tell Sakurai to stop including a pot plant over someone like Elma. alt right shitheads bitching about it can go take a seat.

 

[Teeny]

Yeah, the fact that if you're creating a black character in games it's either "ridiculously over-the-top dreadlocks" or "afro" certainly stands out, especially with the level of care developers put into modeling hairstyles no one will ever use.

Like, does every RPG with a character creator need six different kinds of fauxhawk hairstyles with shaved sides? Is the Richard Spencer/Hitler Youth look THAT popular nowadays?

Click to shrink...

Even Pokemon isn't immune to that trend lol.

 

[skipgo]

More damaging than the overt blowback is the more thinly veiled hyper critical scrutiny self proclaimed "well meaning open minded people" apply to content that is geared towards minorities.

You see it a lot these days.

 

[airbagged_]

Because white guys.

 

[Rotobit]

Yeah it's mostly racism/sexism/homophobia

That said, I always get the feeling that some of it, especially when it crops up here, is the idea of "you're implying I'M those things for liking the game" or "you're saying [MY FAVORITE CREATOR] is SEXIST?". So people get defensive.

But in the majority of cases, unless the creator of a work is blatantly terrible with a track record, critics aren't "calling out" creators and fans. They simply want things to represent reality, and be more equal. It still surprises me that people can spin this in their mind to be a negative.

 

[badcrumble]

Look, game development has limited resources, and if you have to put additional work into having a nonwhite main character, you're taking resources away from tightening up the graphics on level 3.

 

[MickZan]

I encourage ethnic diversity in video games. It's a good thing. On the contrary though, i've seen people here flaming / dismissing developers for having a white main character. Even calling them racist for not having a diverse cast? I mean come on. The one thing you shouldn't want is artists forcing themselves to make characters they don't see fit or go out of their way to fit things into their vision. Yay for diversity! But let's not get aggressive towards artists who go another route.

 

[jorgejjvr]

This is it. They feel attacked in two ways: that their space is being invaded/taken away and the idea that others are calling them bad people for simply being the group that has been catered to this whole time. That's why people will get so defensive and aggressive when diversity is brought up in a game and fight it. They think it's a threat to their status quo. Of course there has to be bigotry there too. No matter how you spin it, if you're mad that people want some diversity in games then you really need to reflect on why that is.


That's the problem. These kinds of people have a narrow world view. A world view that straight white male perspectives are the default because that's their world view. They never stop to consider that in all parts of the world there are other perspectives that aren't straight, white and male by default.

So while you can fill a video game with a cast of white characters and no one bats an eye, the moment you introduce a black character outside the expected, cliche setting/role or reveal a specific character is gay without that character having obvious and stereotypical traits you have people saying "this is forced" "this is to fulfill a quota/agenda."

You want a dev to explain their vision. You wan them to tell you why a trans character is trans. Ok but have you ever asked why Nathan Drake, for example, is white? Had the thought ever crossed your mind or does it just seem like he belongs even without justification for being there? Ask yourself why you would want or need to know why a character is trans. A trans person doesn't need to justify why they exist in real life. Video games don't need to either. After all video games can give us the wildest fantasies that we readily accept yet many gamers can't seem to accept something based on reality without a proper and logical explanation. Why?

Click to shrink...

i think you are making this too complicated than it needs to be lol there is no consiparcy here

i woulnt call these people to have "narrow world view" i dont know them, and thats too general of a statement

i dont think you need an explanation as to why natan drake is white, he just is lol, and why someone trans is trans, they just are lol like in tell me why

 

[Angelus Errare]

Those losers in a nutshell

 

[SENPAIatLARGE]

That takes time, and they're not mutually exclusive but I'm agreed that diversity needs to be backed up behind the game. As long as those cis white men get the representative members involved in consulting and higher up roles like writing, it's fine. Either way, if the representation falls flat and into stereotypes, they will be called out.

Click to shrink...

Part of me would prefer a Last of Us with no black people than the one we got that was written by white men and every black person in the story died.

 

[Deleted member 3815]

Even Pokemon isn't immune to that trend lol.

Click to shrink...

Indeed, the hair option for black folk is limited and there are only three skin tone in the game. White, light brown and dark brown. My skin tone is medium brown and according to the game, I don't exist at all. 😕

Really baffling given that they are really creative when it comes to the Pokémon design.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

"Forced diversity" is a mostly white college finding the one black student to photograph for their admissions pamphlets, not game developers trying to make their art represent the real world.

Click to shrink...

I think there's a little more nuance to it than this. There are certainly examples in gaming where diversity does feel manufactured and "fake", like a Benetton ad. When it DOES look and feel like developers are just going down a list checking boxes to appear like they care about diversity when they actually don't. There are absolutely corporate cynics who try to take advantage of diversity to score points.

But the examples in that category are far fewer than the examples of just people trying to do good by the world around them and make things better for everyone.

Even Pokemon isn't immune to that trend lol.

Click to shrink...

I noticed it IMMEDIATELY when I was watching my roommate make his character in SwSh - you can make a black character but basically NONE of the hairstyle options appear like even a shred of consideration was made toward allowing the character to look like an actual little black boy.

 

[jschreier]

I think there's a little more nuance to it than this. There are certainly examples in gaming where diversity does feel manufactured and "fake", like a Benetton ad. When it DOES look and feel like developers are just going down a list checking boxes to appear like they care about diversity when they actually don't. There are absolutely corporate cynics who try to take advantage of diversity to score points.

But the examples in that category are far fewer than the examples of just people trying to do good by the world around them and make things better for everyone.

Click to shrink...

What game(s) are you talking about?

 

[Dyle]

I think most of it is magnified by social media and is not representative of what the full audience thinks. People who are angry about anything related to games are always a very tiny, but very loud minority that ultimately shouldn't exercise much significant influence outside of online message boards and social media bandwagon campaigns. These voices are so loud because there is so little informed, well written discourse around games and conversations about games are mostly driven around simplistic language that discourages significant critical analysis of the medium, which allows such insipid takes to be seen as normal discussion rather than worthless drivel. Many players spend almost all their time thinking about games in echo chambers that actively encourage this kind of toxic behavior and end up pushing the idea that games are not an art form or a hobby but an identity, a way of life.

The idea that people who play games are more racist or bigoted than society at large shouldn't really be seen as a reason without hard data to back it up; it strikes me as an easy excuse but not a legitimate answer that passes blame onto other people and discourages self-reflection.

 

[Ferrs]

Because when you're privileged, any attempt at equality feels like oppression.

Click to shrink...

One and done.

 

[Deleted member 56580]

People who actually care in a negative way about diversity being pushed forward are trash. There's much more of that than the nice ones

 

[adumb]

Because bigotry. Have you spoken to self-styled 'gamers'? They're misogynistic white supremacists in N7 hoodies. There's nothing exceptional about them, so they gravitate towards their very privileged race and sex as a point of pride, and see anything that isnt like them as the enemy. They've dominated this space for so long, and now it's grown beyond them. They think people who aren't like them are coming for their electronic toys, so they'll jump through any hoop imaginable, do any mental gymnastics required to keep representations of other people out. They see themselves as the stereotypical 20th century nerd, disrespected and downtrodden by those dumb mean jocks. Except it isn't like that anymore. It never really was. But this bizarre, inherited cultural memory of being the underdog remains. It's here on ERA, too. Beneath the fake-woke stuff. There's so much racism, transphobia and worse here, poorly disguised by arguments about 'game design'.


tl:dr gamers are worthless trashmen

 

[Deleted member 44122]

"Forced diversity" is a mostly white college finding the one black student to photograph for their admissions pamphlets, not game developers trying to make their art represent the real world.

Click to shrink...

So when is diversity ever not forced in the eyes of those against it?

Click to shrink...

i dont know, depends on the world the game takes place in and the story thats being told

 

[Viale]

I assume an overabundance of representation (hetero, white, male) has led to a feeling that it doesn't matter as it has become the norm and is no longer something they view as unique, empowering or even relatable for them. I don't think they truly understand how important it can be to some people.

Or they could just also be racist/sexist fucks.

 

[Numberfox]

There's the incredibly vocal minority who legitimately hate more diversity, given a much louder voice thanks to the internet, and there's also the aggressively apathetic crowd who get annoyed when any changes are brought up, simply because they don't care about them, who also give blowback.

 

[data]

It's not limited to video games.

 

[Kyra]

"Forced diversity" is only forced if you resist it.

 

[time allen]

I'm talking broader society. Hundreds of thousands of views is still an extreme minority compared to the hundreds millions who live in just the US alone. Like, to give an example, even 999,999 people being shitheads in unison, is still just less than 0.3% of the total population.

When dealing with extremely large numbers, it's hard to grasp proportional representation. I'm not saying there isn't an enormous gulf of shitheads out there, I'm saying that, in the grand scheme of things, they are "tiny" compared to the amount of people who don't care.

Now, that's not to praise those who "don't care" either. Apathy isn't really a great trait. Those who do care, but in the right direction, are also a minority, sadly.

Click to shrink...

You are absolutely missing the forest for the trees if you think that this is emblematic of specific corners of the internet rather than western culture in its entirety. It is the largely unexamined white supremacy at the heart of most developed western nations that jumps out when non-white voices and faces are centred in popular media.

 

[Messofanego]

Part of me would prefer a Last of Us with no black people than the one we got that was written by white men and every black person in the story died.

Click to shrink...

Haven't played that game, but that is certainly a worrying pattern. Does Riley die too?

 

[Kerotan]

because gamers are racist/sexist fuckwads

Click to shrink...

It's a vocal minority. I don't think most people care as long as the game is good and fun to play.