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Why is there so much blowback from people when asking for more gender & ethnic diversity in games?

Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,389
Houston, TX
To get ahead of what some of you may be wondering, this isn't just about Smash. It's something I've noticed on the topic of representation as a whole whenever it's raised on social media.

Anyway, since I've started to become more conscious about how much diversity there that may or may not exist in games & began pushing for improving such matters, I've started to come across a number of arguments when the topic is brought up or requested...
  • "Gameplay is more important."
  • "It shouldn't matter what's between their legs/what skin color they have."
  • "Let the developers do what they want."
  • "There shouldn't be forced diversity."
  • "As long as the character is fun, who cares?"
  • "A character decided by race or gender isn't good game design."
...& many other arguments similar to that. People treat it like it's a one-or-the-other situation & I'm honestly not sure why. Most would say that the answer is sexism/racism/homophobia/transphobia/etc. on the part of those giving said responses (& I can easily see why), but is it simply that? Is there something else that's driving such pushback against the idea of improving diversity in games, or am I just over-thinking things as usual? I thought I should raise the question here since most of Era seems to be more aware of the problem than most other areas, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the problem.
 
BDS

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
Because when you're privileged, any attempt at equality feels like oppression.
 
nsilvias

nsilvias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,798
gaming is expensive and most of the people who can afford it are probably priveleged.
 
Kalentan

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,703
I feel like this is obvious. There is a huge amount of gamers who hate change and are brainwashed into thinking change is bad. There isn't really any complicated answer.
 
T002 Tyrant

T002 Tyrant

Member
Nov 8, 2018
8,980
It's a mixture of a vocal minority, and a load of self-published gabe-converters fueled by the alt-right, which then spreads outwards to moderates, and then catches the attention of the mainstream which further snowballs the problem..... I think, I'm not sure.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
I seriously don't think there as much blowback as it seems. I think those who blow back are, in societal terms, a vocal minority. I think most people honestly don't care either way who they are playing as, so long as the game is fun. I think it's awesome that valve's next flagship game, for example, stars a black woman.

It's just that the gaming internet is a realm where those dissenting voices are amplified. I also think, seriously, most people who are loud shitheads about this are like early 20 year olds, feeling like adults for the first time in their lives, and are acting like it's finally their turn to pontificate. Nobody asked these loser's opinion on diversity, but they feel compelled to spout it out.
 

Dongs Macabre

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,284
How can you expect people to relate to minority characters? It's a good thing straight-white-maleness is an universal experience.
 
MilesQ

MilesQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,490
Kalentan said:
I feel like this is obvious. There is a huge amount of gamers who hate change and are brainwashed into thinking change is bad. There isn't really any complicated answer.
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Bingo.

Throw in a dash of them crying about developers 'appeasing SJWs' and you have all the answers you need.
 

Marukoban

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,298
Is there any push back tho? I think people just generally dont care about diversity and representation
 
Strangelove_77

Strangelove_77

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,392
A lot of people don't like change. I know it's easy to say they're racist and homophobic, but I think overall it bothers them that their games are changing and the changes aren't necessarily "good" ones since they don't really get anything in return. It doesn't make the game better for them so they want it to stay the same.

Or you know, they're being racist and homophobic.
 
Spring-Loaded

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
Strangelove_77 said:
A lot of people don't like change. I know it's easy to say they're racist and homophobic, but I think overall it bothers them that their games are changing and the changes aren't necessarily "good" ones since they don't really get anything in return. It doesn't make the game better for them so they want it to stay the same.

Or you know, they're being racist and homophobic.
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You don't see this type of backlash against comparative changes though. Yakuza series now having turn-based combat didn't attract such bristling and that's almost a whole genre change.

It's bigotry, full stop.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Strangelove_77 said:
A lot of people don't like change. I know it's easy to say they're racist and homophobic, but I think overall it bothers them that their games are changing and the changes aren't necessarily "good" ones since they don't really get anything in return. It doesn't make the game better for them so they want it to stay the same.
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There's a quote in the recent Rocko's Modern Life cartoon from a character called The Winds of Change that is really great about embracing change, but unfortunately it's not online to share.
 
PlanetSmasher

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,809
For basically three decades, gaming has been the domain of straight white men between the ages of 10 and 40 of average+ income. The primary demographic for gaming for a LONG time was basically people who didn't need to think about their place in the world because they were essentially the socio-economic "default" that the American economic and social system is based around.

And when those people are the primary demographic, they also tend to be the people MAKING games, because those kids grow up to want to be developers too. So you had gamers and game developers all serving one niche, making games for people who look like them.

Now that the field is more diverse and there's a wider array of voices creating games, the people who haven't caught up with the times feel like they're being attacked now that they're not being catered to exclusively.

BDS said:
Because when you're privileged, any attempt at equality feels like oppression.
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In a word: this.
 
Jessie

Jessie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,921
There's a crossover between people who spend all of their time gaming and people who have ignorant views towards society.

You don't see diverse groups of people if you don't go outside.
 
jschreier

jschreier

Press Sneak Fuck
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,099
Krejlooc said:
I seriously don't think there as much blowback as it seems. I think those who blow back are, in societal terms, a vocal minority. I think most people honestly don't care either way who they are playing as, so long as the game is fun. I think it's awesome that valve's next flagship game, for example, stars a black woman.

It's just that the gaming internet is a realm where those dissenting voices are amplified. I also think, seriously, most people who are loud shitheads about this are like early 20 year olds, feeling like adults for the first time in their lives, and are acting like it's finally their turn to pontificate. Nobody asked these loser's opinion on diversity, but they feel compelled to spout it out.
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I wish this were the case! It's not, sadly. "Anti-SJW" gaming YouTubers regularly rack up hundreds of thousands of views, as do subreddits like KotakuInAction.

Kalentan said:
I feel like this is obvious. There is a huge amount of gamers who hate change and are brainwashed into thinking change is bad. There isn't really any complicated answer.
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Not sure that's quite right. It's more like a lack of empathy and an inability to recognize that what doesn't matter to you might matter deeply to someone else. These are often the same people who will say things like "I'm colorblind, race doesn't make a difference to me" without realizing that for people of color, race makes a difference every day and they don't get to choose otherwise.
 
Teeny

Teeny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
687
UK
How am I supposed to feel empathy for a character if they are black, female or LGBTQ+? I literally cannot relate to a character unless they are a straight, white man like me.
 
Kalentan

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,703
jschreier said:
Not sure that's quite right. It's more like a lack of empathy and an inability to recognize that what doesn't matter to you might matter deeply to someone else. These are often the same people who will say things like "I'm colorblind, race doesn't make a difference to me" without realizing that for people of color, race makes a difference every day and they don't get to choose otherwise.
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Fair point.
 
HereticGrin

HereticGrin

Member
Feb 16, 2018
385
There is literally no good reason NOT to make games more inclusive. None.

(side note: the people here in this forum are awesome and welcoming and kind, keep it up good people)
 
Lightning Count

Lightning Count

Member
Jan 27, 2019
16,078
Fuck off
A lot of people are entitled racist/bigoted shitheads, we should not be catering to these people, they need to get in the fucking bin all of them.

If your basis for criticism/boycotting a game is because of the race, gender or sexuality of the protagonist you are a bad person and that's an end of the matter.
 
jorgejjvr

jorgejjvr

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
8,423
User Banned (3 Months): Inflammatory commentary surrounding representation of minorities in games; prior ban for similar behavior
I just dont think people like things to be forced

if someone's vision is to make this game, with this color, and with a trans character, like tell me why, then great. That is their vision.

But a push for devs in general to make these types of specific games, just to reach a certain quota of ethnicity, its just meh. There are inclusive games, and more games being made that are more inclusive, and with more variety of ranges, and those are devs with that in mind as part of their vision that fits their specific games
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
jschreier said:
I wish this were the case! It's not, sadly. "Anti-SJW" gaming YouTubers regularly rack up hundreds of thousands of views, as do subreddits like KotakuInAction.
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I'm talking broader society. Hundreds of thousands of views is still an extreme minority compared to the hundreds millions who live in just the US alone. Like, to give an example, even 999,999 people being shitheads in unison, is still just less than 0.3% of the total population.

When dealing with extremely large numbers, it's hard to grasp proportional representation. I'm not saying there isn't an enormous gulf of shitheads out there, I'm saying that, in the grand scheme of things, they are "tiny" compared to the amount of people who don't care.

Now, that's not to praise those who "don't care" either. Apathy isn't really a great trait. Those who do care, but in the right direction, are also a minority, sadly.
 
karby

karby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
107
Neoxon said:
Most would say that the answer is sexism/racism/homophobia/transphobia/etc. on the part of those giving said responses (& I can easily see why), but is it simply that?
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Yes. I know you may think there has to be some underlying profound reason, but as someone constantly on the receiving end of such bullshit, this is simply what it is.
 
Stop It

Stop It

Bad Cat
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,352
Strangelove_77 said:
A lot of people don't like change. I know it's easy to say they're racist and homophobic, but I think overall it bothers them that their games are changing and the changes aren't necessarily "good" ones since they don't really get anything in return. It doesn't make the game better for them so they want it to stay the same.

Or you know, they're being racist and homophobic.
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First of all, the gatekeeping and sense of ownership and entitlement that gamers have is utterly toxic to begin with.

If a group of primarily white men think they own gaming, and try to stop any changes to represent society better, then they're no better than straight up bigots to begin with.

Gaming should be for all, and the games industry should reflect that, rather than pandering to the late 20th century idea of the white man child gaming is still struggling to get past.
 
MrWindUpBird

MrWindUpBird

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,686
We have threads like this all the time, and the answers are the same every single time. Gaming as a hobby is, unfortunately, filled to the brim with racist and sexist incels who never shut up about "SJW's ruining gaming" and all that other shit.
 
Teeny

Teeny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
687
UK
jorgejjvr said:
I just dont think people like things to be forced

if someone's vision is to make this game, with this color, and with a trans character, like tell me why, then great. That is their vision.

But a push for devs in general to make these types of specific games, just to reach a certain quota of ethnicity, its just meh
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Click to shrink...

Straight white maleness shouldn't be the default whereas other ethnicity or sexuality needs to be explained. Why can't other types of people just be, just like they are in the real world?
 
JaxiPup

JaxiPup

Member
Dec 23, 2017
677
Massachusetts
The same reason western society is dominated by cis/heteronormativity and whiteness. Its become the "default" in the eyes of the privileged, any deviation from it challenges the norm and is upsetting to them. We've got a long way to go as a culture, not just in the games industry.
 
jorgejjvr

jorgejjvr

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
8,423
Teeny said:
Straight white maleness shouldn't be the default whereas other ethnicity or sexuality needs to be explained. Why can't other types of people just be, just like they are in the real world?
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im not saying they shoulnt be lol. And idk, i think we have gotten farther away from just straight white maleness to be honest. A lot of games feature female protagonists, and a lot of games let you create the character you want
 
Apollo

Apollo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,096
jorgejjvr said:
I just dont think people like things to be forced

if someone's vision is to make this game, with this color, and with a trans character, like tell me why, then great. That is their vision.

But a push for devs in general to make these types of specific games, just to reach a certain quota of ethnicity, its just meh
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It feels good to be represented in media. The simple fact that doing so can help marginalized people feel seen will always be a good enough reason to make characters diverse. There doesn't always need to be a deep plot reason for a character black or trans, it's intrinsically good on its own to do so. Implying otherwise just perpetuates the narrative that a white cis het male is the default human
 
defaltoption

defaltoption

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
11,489
Austin
Because gaming is filled with racist, small minded, small penis individuals.

I really wish the narrative never became "because gamers are..." from the start we should have called them out for what they are. Racist and homophobic and sexist people.
 
Landy828

Landy828

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,419
Clemson, SC
I always play as a female character if that's an option.

(I'm a white guy)

Usually design them to look like my wife, or my daughters. My daughters love having someone to relate to in their games too.

I don't get being bothered by options, or even a main protagonist being female. It's certainly many of the above mentioned reasons. I've never had any of those insecurities when playing games. I've never been one that pretends they're the actual character in a game, or that the character has to be like me 🤷‍♂️ . Everyone should have options to design/play what they want.
 
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