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Why is the Star War sequel trilogy hated so much?

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Garlador said:
Someone mentioned that you could still do the scene of Luke rejecting the Lightsaber but not play it up for laughs. Because... it's not funny. It's "subverting expectations", but the history behind why he discards it is one of horror, regret, disdain, and all manner of other ugly, negative, and painful memories and emotions.

... But the movie frames it for a laugh.

I know it's cheating to bring up the god-tier Batman series, but I think of something like Batman grabbing a gun to defend himself in the opening of Batman Beyond. He is presented a weapon that he wields for necessity before the trauma of doing so is so intense, it utterly breaks him.


That is what the Lightsaber represents to Luke at this point. Failure, harm, and self-loathing. Imagine the same scene, but of his hands shaking as he wields it, thinking back over what he did with it, before it instead just slips from his hands, crashing to the ground, and he instead just turns and walks away from it.

The emotional gravity of the scene is lost in favor of a subversion. You could have the exact same meaning imparted if they had just altered the tone of the shot. But that wasn't a priority. It was "a funny scene".
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I just want to say what a great example to use to illustrate the distinction between the two. Love that scene. Thats not to say that you cant have Luke rejecting Rey but like you said, playing it up for laughs undermines a lot of the context for why hes like this.
 
Gustaf

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Garlador said:
Someone mentioned that you could still do the scene of Luke rejecting the Lightsaber but not play it up for laughs. Because... it's not funny. It's "subverting expectations", but the history behind why he discards it is one of horror, regret, disdain, and all manner of other ugly, negative, and painful memories and emotions.

... But the movie frames it for a laugh.

I know it's cheating to bring up the god-tier Batman series, but I think of something like Batman grabbing a gun to defend himself in the opening of Batman Beyond. He is presented a weapon that he wields for necessity before the trauma of doing so is so intense, it utterly breaks him.


That is what the Lightsaber represents to Luke at this point. Failure, harm, and self-loathing. Imagine the same scene, but of his hands shaking as he wields it, thinking back over what he did with it, before it instead just slips from his hands, crashing to the ground, and he instead just turns and walks away from it.

The emotional gravity of the scene is lost in favor of a subversion. You could have the exact same meaning imparted if they had just altered the tone of the shot. But that wasn't a priority. It was "a funny scene".
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luke didnt do anything with that lightsaber, he just lost to Darth Vader
 

Deleted member 41638

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 3, 2018
1,164
carlosrox said:
I have no problem with this scene whatsoever and absolutely loved it. I got teary eyed even.

Not sure why it became some dumb meme.
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It looked very goofy, had questionable physics (even for Star Wars), it just sorta happened out of the blue. Sure Leia was always passively connected to the force but the first time we've actively seen her use it it was to revive, survive the vacuum of space, and fly? That's a little much.

I don't know if it's Jar Jar on the tank levels of dumb but maybe closer to Anakin surfing a bison.
 
The Unsent

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,438
HellforLeather said:
Yeah this too. Kylo is a bad villain. He has a promising debut; The first scene in TFA is great but ultimately, he comes off like a jobber. Its hard to make your baddie intimidating when he loses in pretty much every encounter.
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I really disagree, his first scene he's just vader again with slightly different powers, why do you want that?

He doesn't lose every encounter, his main proper fights were Rey/Finn and against Snoke and his guards, one he wins and one he loses. I guess you could include Luke but wasn't a fight. Considering Kylo manages to take over the first order , I wouldn't say he's completely incompetent.
 
NiallGGlynn

NiallGGlynn

Member
Apr 16, 2019
509
Star Wars is a franchise that can never be universally liked ever again really. The original trilogy had so much time to settle into pop culture that any additions, good or bad would be blown totally out of proportion. All of the films have fair areas to critique but the vitriol against the new ones is embarrassing.
 

Deleted member 31923

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,826
Surfinn said:
Ok well if you really intended it as a joke.. I'm not really sure how that's possible, given the context of your original post (there is literally no indication), but moving on..

No harm no foul? There's a lot of revisionist history happening lately with the PT, which ruined Anakin/Vader's backstory with weak and bizarre development to earn that transformation. Midichlorians ruined the idea of what the Force is and directly contradict what Yoda tells us it is in the OT (this is where people usually go into the argument that "well actually the Force literally aren't midichlorians). Bottom line is GL transformed the mystical/mysterious power that is the Force and measured it scientifically, assigning power levels to everyone and see how the best Force sensitives line up with each other. There's literally an "over 9000" scene in which, we just needed to know, how Anakin is actually more powerful than even Yoda himself!

That's just the beginning of it. Even Obi and Palps characterizations aren't done well, their actors just happened to turn out the best performances in spite of a comically written script.

I just can't take anyone seriously who argues that the PT did less damage to SW than the ST. GL is personally responsible for a lot of the power level glorification that removed the focus from what made the OT so great in the first place.
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Well, I have no argument against the Midichlorians, that was pretty terrible, so saying no harm, no foul doesn't cut it. But the main point I was making is that the prequels seem optional. I think most people who never saw the films will start with the OT, then soon it will be the ST, and then maybe they will watch the prequels after that, maybe not. The prequels didn't really cover much ground that we didn't already know of or have an idea of. It's the OT and ST that are the consequential films of the series, so if you don't like the sequels or how the characters ended up, that should matter a lot more than how bad the prequels were. And it's not a matter of the prequels being better films than the sequels, I would not argue that (unless somewhat Rise of Skywalker is ungodly terrible), it's just that you can essentially ignore the prequels, but the sequels you cannot if you want to know the whole story.
 
zombiejames

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,933
Because the first movie was a rehash of A New Hope and then they fucked up the second movie. Haha, oh wait, sorry, they didn't fuck it up, they subverted expectations.
 
Surfinn

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
clevbrowns95 said:
Well, I have no argument against the Midichlorians, that was pretty terrible, so saying no harm, no foul doesn't cut it. But the main point I was making is that the prequels seem optional. I think most people who never saw the films will start with the OT, then soon it will be the ST, and then maybe they will watch the prequels after that, maybe not. The prequels didn't really cover much ground that we didn't already know of or have an idea of. It's the OT and ST that are the consequential films of the series, so if you don't like the sequels or how the characters ended up, that should matter a lot more than how bad the prequels were. And it's not a matter of the prequels being better films than the sequels, I would not argue that (unless somewhat Rise of Skywalker is ungodly terrible), it's just that you can essentially ignore the prequels, but the sequels you cannot if you want to know the whole story.
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You can ignore whichever movies you want, though. If you want to pretend like the PT doesn't exist, go right ahead. If you want to pretend like ST doesn't exist, go right ahead. The PT does FAR more damage to the franchise than any of the ST films do. Just because a threat now lingers or exists doesn't mean the OT characters failed. Luke succeeded in a bigger way than ever before, basically immortalizing himself and capping off his legacy with the greatest Force maneuver in the films' history (instead of just trying to save his father), inspiring what will surely be an unstoppable resistance in TROS and beyond.

Whatever your opinions are of the trilogies, you can pick and choose which ones you want to ignore and remember.

But if we're sticking to canon, the OT was crippled and largely ruined long before the Disney sale happened.
 
Bad Advice

Bad Advice

Member
Jan 8, 2019
795
- Boring new characters with no or questionable development
- no clear villain
- snoke a joke
- the first movie tries to retell the same story but evrything is bigger and badder
- Makes the empire and the death star look like a joke
- TLJ is straight up terrible, makes no sense. it tries to be so edgy
- forgettable soundtrack
- manchild kylo a joke

the only new movie I like is Rogue One
 
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Liquidsnake

Liquidsnake

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,986
Televator said:
Like even if Luke just kept that grouchy expression and just denied taking it from her hand, I would have found the scene better. Instead the whole tossing over his shoulder seemed almost comedic, and maliciously intent on destroying the mood and tension of the ending of TFA. It seemed too self aware and oddly 4th wall breaking. Like "yeah, fuck what you expected!"

Subvert my expectations™ all you want as long as it is good, but don't make me feel like a shit for having them.
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100% I just don't understand how anyone am refute this.
 
Garlador

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
Gustaf said:
luke didnt do anything with that lightsaber, he just lost to Darth Vader
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He tried to murder his own father with it (unknowingly) and the last time he held a lightsaber, it was when he was contemplating using it on his own nephew.

Lightsabers have symbolism and meaning, and there was a lot of opportunity to tap into that that was a tad overlooked.
 
Gustaf

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
User Warned: Unnecessary hostility (troll accusations)
Bad Advice said:
- Boring new characters with no or questionable development
- no clear villain
- snoke a joke
- the first movie tries to retell the same story but evrything is bigger and badder
- Makes the empire and the death star look like a joke
- TLJ is straight up terrible, makes no sense. it tries to be so edgy
- forgettable soundtrack
- manchild kylo a joke

the only new movie I like is Rogue Squadron
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whats the deal with these troll accounts?
 
Cranster

Cranster

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,788
Characters like Vader
Bad Advice said:
- Boring new characters with no or questionable development
- no clear villain
- snoke a joke
- the first movie tries to retell the same story but evrything is bigger and badder
- Makes the empire and the death star look like a joke
- TLJ is straight up terrible, makes no sense. it tries to be so edgy
- forgettable soundtrack
- manchild kylo a joke

the only new movie I like is Rogue Squadron
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This has to be sarcasm.
 
PlanetSmasher

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,737
zombiejames said:
Because the first movie was a rehash of A New Hope and then they fucked up the second movie. Haha, oh wait, sorry, they didn't fuck it up, they subverted expectations.
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Question: Why is Finn getting his entire plot arc and a year and a half of very obvious "LOOK AT THE NEW BLACK JEDI!" marketing clotheslined out from underneath him at the end of TFA okay, but Rian Johnson not having Luke jump around killing people with a lightsaber (despite making the very clear point that doing so would accomplish nothing) is a bad thing?
 
Sunster

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,017
people saying it's the plot or the writing. sure, i get the distaste in the retreads of the OT. i really understand and feel the same way. but that's not why there is obscene visceral hatred of these films. bad writing doesn't bring that out. what we ALL know brings that out of people (nerds), are women and PoC existing in places where they "shouldn't"
 
DeathPeak

DeathPeak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,991
I'm annoyed that Rey and Poe never met until the end of TLJ. They should have met at the end of TFA while Finn was getting medical attention.
 
Cross-Section

Cross-Section

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,874
DeathPeak said:
I'm annoyed that Rey and Poe never met until the end of TLJ. They should have met at the end of TFA while Finn was getting medical attention.
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This was actually shot, and even made it into the novelization (with some of the same dialogue, oddly enough):
Rey and Poe were not excluded, though their sudden, tight clinch of shared excitement led to a moment of mutual awkwardness. "Uh, hi," the pilot mumbled. "I'm Poe."

She nodded slowly, searching his face and finding that she liked it. "I recognize the name. So you're Poe. Poe Dameron, the X-wing pilot. I'm Rey."

"I know." He smiled back, a little more at ease. "Nice to meet you."
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I believe it got cut for pacing reasons, much like this scene of Rey learning about Finn's condition was.

In any case, I like TLJ's take on their meeting more; it's a much needed moment of levity after some pretty heavy stuff.
 
Bad Advice

Bad Advice

Member
Jan 8, 2019
795
I meant Rogue One..

the genuinely sad thing is that not even john williams could work his magic here. or do you guys remember any outstanding track? there is no duel of the fates, across the stars, imperial march or yoda's theme in these new movies.
 
SArcher

SArcher

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,669
Now I'll be disappointed if we don't get Rey flying an X-Wing and cutting a star destroyer into pieces with her lightsaber (concept for TFA). Let's just go full stupid.

gmjc0bwelmiz.jpg
 
a916

a916

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,837
Bad Advice said:
I meant Rogue One..

the genuinely sad thing is that not even john williams could work his magic here. or do you guys remember any outstanding track? there is no duel of the fates, across the stars, imperial march or yoda's theme in these new movies.
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I really like March of the Resistance and Rey's theme.
 

Deleted member 19702

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,722
The Force Awakens was a very solid film. Similar to A New Hope? Sure, but as the first movie of a trilogy it worked well by introducing new characters, new universe and new plot. It build an expectation for the latter movies. My only complain is how easy Finn, Han and Chewie managed to break in into the Starkiller base, there was pretty much no security around for a so important First Order facility. In ROTJ, the Death Star' shield was protected to the teeth with the Empire's best troops.

The Last Jedi blew it. IMO, it's the biggest disappointment I had with the franchise, not even any of the PT movies pissed me off that badly. They killed so many characters prematurely and unnecessarily just for the sake of killing characters and, as consequence, leaving the plot without any real menace to the plot. Kylo Ren feels more like a tragic hero than a villain at this point. There's a clear conflict on him and this was hinted since Force Awakens. Now that Snoke is gone (by his hand BTW) there's little reason for him to remain "loyal" to the dark side and resist his light side persona.

I can't buy Rey being "an average person" and "someone of no importance" after Force Awakening's events, this makes absolute no sense and breaks the saga's logic. Not even Anakin Skywalker, the chosen one, was able to develop their force abilities so quickly, it feels dumb that "a nobody" can be this powerful so quickly. Even if they manage to retcon it in Rise of Skywalker, it'll make The Last Jedi even more pointless. Also, the expectation about his parents' origins was a "The Village" level of disappointment. It felt anti-climatic, trickly, broke the development around her.

Yeah... Luke's death felt dumb. Pretty much a deja vu of Obi Wan's death against Vader in order to distract the foes from heroes' escape. I liked his ronin personality in the movie but how it ended was superfluous.

I agree that Disney didn't closely supervised the plot, gave way too much freedom for different directors with different views and that clearly created a divergence into the sequel trilogy.
 
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SArcher

SArcher

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,669
Rey's theme sounds like it's straight out of Harry Potter though.
 

Deleted member 25671

User requested account closure
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Oct 29, 2017
208
I think they're fine movies, but a missed opportunity. Out of all the EU books (that are no longer cannon) the ones I ended up appreciating the most was New Jedi Order, simply because it seemed to do something new (in some ways). I was just so tired of the empire motif, and the Thrawn stuff wasn't that great to me. I just couldn't stand that TFA started down that path of Empire vs Rebels, and then TLJ went fully into New Hope status of ragtag Rebels vs Empire.
I understood why they went the direction they did (sending off the old characters/pander to OT fans), but I think I would have preferred something in the farther future, and Rey and Kylo could still be in it, but have zero ties to the old cast. Luke could have revived the Jedi, for good or ill, and you could have had interaction with him via Holocron stuff. Like Luke could have still screwed up, and we could see how that all is effected in the future for Rey, and Rey could indeed discover something that could actually bring balance to the force, or whatever.
I don't know, it's either that or Old Republic stuff for me. I'm ready for Star Wars that's in a whole new era.
EDIT: I should say though, the hate is ridiculous, and the movies are still fine/enjoyable.
 
PlanetSmasher

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,737
Gustaf said:
so everything that you discuss or talk regarding TFA is from when you saw it 4 years ago one time?????
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This may shock you, but you don't have to watch a movie multiple times to have an opinion about it. I'm not going to suddenly like Finn being chumped out of a prominent role in the plot MORE because I saw the movie a second time.
 
The Unsent

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,438
Garlador said:
Someone mentioned that you could still do the scene of Luke rejecting the Lightsaber but not play it up for laughs. Because... it's not funny. It's "subverting expectations", but the history behind why he discards it is one of horror, regret, disdain, and all manner of other ugly, negative, and painful memories and emotions.

... But the movie frames it for a laugh.

I know it's cheating to bring up the god-tier Batman series, but I think of something like Batman grabbing a gun to defend himself in the opening of Batman Beyond. He is presented a weapon that he wields for necessity before the trauma of doing so is so intense, it utterly breaks him.


That is what the Lightsaber represents to Luke at this point. Failure, harm, and self-loathing. Imagine the same scene, but of his hands shaking as he wields it, thinking back over what he did with it, before it instead just slips from his hands, crashing to the ground, and he instead just turns and walks away from it.

The emotional gravity of the scene is lost in favor of a subversion. You could have the exact same meaning imparted if they had just altered the tone of the shot. But that wasn't a priority. It was "a funny scene".
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I think the reason Luke is eccentric and throws the light saber, is to go for the kooky master trope we often see in fantasy. We expect Luke to eventually come around and turn Rey into a jedi like with Yoda but that's not exactly what happens. I don't think your comparison to Batman is on the mark because we see Luke from Rey's pespective, it's hard for the scene to not be comical when Rey was expecting a hero to suddenly join the fight again.
 
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