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wandering

flâneur
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
I'm not sure if you're saying the experience of Asian people towards the film were dismissed or not. The reception of the film in Japan at the time was actually quite positive.

And I'm not saying that people are wrong to have enjoyed it, but it doesn't invalidate the issues that others have brought up, including the ones you mentioned in your original comment. Funnily enough, the opinions of Japanese audiences only seem to ever get brought up in order to undermine the Asian diaspora's struggles in Hollywood. Funny how that works.

My honest answer is no, because it feels like it's basically a disagreement about a specific definition, not about whether it's a problem in general that Tom Cruise had to be the lead for the movie to be made (it's totally a problem). At the same time, the fact that you're telling me that it feels dismissive should at least prompt me to change up how I respond to this kind of thing (I need to think about this more).
Yeah, you're totally right about that. Hell, the final scene of the movie bothered my teenage self in the theater before I was even explicitly aware of the dynamics. Purely in terms of tropes, though (and maybe I'm a nerd about this), it's a case of mighty whitey, just like you said (as opposed to white savior).

I'm sure there are some (many?) that fit that description -- I do think for others (at least for me) it's not about absolving the movie of its issues, but rather about accurately describing its issues.

I'd be interested in what you think re: the question I added in my edit: "On a related note, does it feel like we're now past that trope? Or do we still frequently see the "white protagonist in films about other cultures" thing? Last one I remember is when there was talk about a Brie Larson movie set in India(?)... but that was a while ago."

I can appreciate your point, but I really think the majority of people who are arguing the point aren't doing so in the interest of accurate trope identification.

As to your last point, no, I don't think that we're past it, considering the Jared Leto led Yakuza film that released in 2018.
 

Mulciber

Member
Aug 22, 2018
5,217
The ironic thing about that claim is that it ignores the fundamental fact that the white man is saved by the Samurai and villagers.

Then again, some people still believe that the title - The Last Samurai - is an allusion to Cruise's character which is simply untrue. He is very clearly not the Last Samurai.
Agree on both. The second point is especially irritating, because it's not even vague. Tom Cruise's character explicitly calls Katsumoto "the last samurai."
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
The ironic thing about that claim is that it ignores the fundamental fact that the white man is saved by the Samurai and villagers.

Then again, some people still believe that the title - The Last Samurai - is an allusion to Cruise's character which is simply untrue. He is very clearly not the Last Samurai.
Right, it's using samurai as a plural. They just had Tommy C on the poster.
 

Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,897
You guys need to read more into ancient Japan to fully understand the movie. Initially, as with any other empire around the world, the Emperor of Japan is the most powerful person of the country. However, this changes around the 11th century when the Shogunate which is the military arm of the Empire and are the head of all Samurai in Japan was more powerful then the Emperor and this tradition carry on for more than 700 years where the Emperor during this period were just the puppet for the Shogun. The event in The Last Samurai is when Emperor of Japan is wrestling his power back from the Samurai who are more loyal to the Shogun.

That's not what happens in the movie though.
 

Monster Zero

Member
Nov 5, 2017
5,612
Southern California
Well, the plot of the movie is that some Westerner shows up in a society where people have been training as warriors from birth, and after a few months he is one of the best katana fighters there, and is repelling a ninja attack to save the village.

We can quibble over whether it fulfills all of the aspects of the white savior trope, but it clearly has the element of "white guy quickly outclasses natives in their own culture."

Agreed.
 

TheXbox

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,548
The samurai were essentially Make Japan Great Again clowns who hid in their compound and complained about the system being changed so that others could have rights. I'm not saying the film is bad but the politics are blinkered.
This is true, although Imperial Japan was probably a lot worse than the old shogunate. I'm not sure if you can delineate the Meiji Restoration and the expansion of Japan's empire -- someone with a better grasp of Japanese history can parse the two systems better than I can.

Anyway, the samurai myth persevered through the restoration (and still does, I think), so the movie's message is compromised in that sense as well as being fundamentally mythological. I still kinda love it, though.

I gotta give this one another watch after my Kurosawa bender ends
Might be a bit of whiplash. Kurosawa's portrayal of the samurai is, even at its most generous, gritty and vicious. He doesn't gloss over the reality of the samurai as a violent aristocracy. It's been a while since I saw TLS but I remember it being much more romantic.
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2017
17,359
Might be a bit of whiplash. Kurosawa's portrayal of the samurai is, even at its most generous, gritty and vicious. He doesn't gloss over the reality of the samurai as a violent aristocracy. It's been a while since I saw TLS but I remember it being much more romantic.
Yeah that's exactly why, I want to view it through a new lens
 

Deleted member 15227

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
1,819
Love the movie though the one aspect that didn't sit well with me was Cruise ending up with the wife of the dude he killed.
 

Acquiescence

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,257
Lake Titicaca
Ken Watanabe was insanely good in this film. Everyone was to be fair, apart from Cruise who was clearly reaching a bit too hard for that Oscar he so desperately wanted. He's fine for the most part, but tends to overact during some of the more emotionally-demanding scenes. The supporting cast all brought their A-game however. Did I mention that Ken Watanabe is insanely good in this film?

I still remember watching TLS for the first time back in 2003 and being in floods of tears by the end. Man, it really cut me to the core somehow.
 

TheBryanJZX90

Member
Nov 29, 2017
3,014
And I'm not saying that people are wrong to have enjoyed it, but it doesn't invalidate the issues that others have brought up, including the ones you mentioned in your original comment. Funnily enough, the opinions of Japanese audiences only seem to ever get brought up in order to undermine the Asian diaspora's struggles in Hollywood. Funny how that works.
Every single time. It's like people can't possibly fathom that a Japanese person born in Japan with every single person of authority in their life also being Japanese, with Japanese people filling their TV screens, music, movies, news, books, in restaurants, schools, stores, everywhere, living their entire life without experiencing any adversity specifically because of their race, might have a different context for their opinion of a white Hollywood actor in a Hollywood movie about Japan than an Asian American living somewhere in America.
 

Valkerion

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,228
Really like this movie too. Crazy that I lived in the city where the real people this is based off of were from. But yeah, its white savior tropey as heck, not sure how we went full circle on that here but whatever. Not as egregious as The Great Wall but rides a similar line.

A good movie is a good movie at the end of the day.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,022
Its not sad when you remember that

1.) The real historical Samurai were a bunch of armed assholes that could kill peasants for any reason, up and including simply not bowing to them when they passed by.

2.) The romanticization of Samurai and Bushido within the Japanese army directly contributed to the rise of Imperial Japan and all the atrocities they committed during World War II.

Really, the film should be about the peasant conscripts in the Imperial Army training to defeat and finally overcome their barbaric aristocratic overlords who have oppressed and mistreated them for centuries before that point.

I still love the movie, btw, but knowing the actual history behind is just really offputting.
 

Chopchop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,171
Might be a bit of whiplash. Kurosawa's portrayal of the samurai is, even at its most generous, gritty and vicious. He doesn't gloss over the reality of the samurai as a violent aristocracy. It's been a while since I saw TLS but I remember it being much more romantic.
Yeah, TLS was way more idealized in their portrayal of the samurai. They weren't as peaceful or noble in real life, but their portrayal in TLS made for a good story because of the contrast between them and the Americans.
 

FunkyPajamas

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
338
I know, white savior, all that, etc. etc.

But the themes of the movie is that the new ages erases the old, and it fucking sucks. The ending suuuuucks and is very sad.

This movie sucks for alotta reasons. The biggest is that the modern age erases the past.
What do you mean the movie sucks? Do you mean the movie makes you feel sad and you don't like that emotion? I'm not sure I agree with "the movie sucks".

I don't agree with "white savior" either. He didn't save them. They all died anyway. He was the witness of all that senseless death.
 

Seductivpancakes

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,790
Brooklyn
Watch it again, read the subtitle carefully because their are subtle hints in the movie about it or better yet watch more Japanese movie about that period such as the excellent Rurouni Kenshin trilogy to get a better ideas.
You're describing the Boshin War which takes place prior to the Satsuma Rebellion which is what this movie is based on. The shogunate was already gone by the time of The Last Samurai.
 
OP
OP
Rosé Fighter

Rosé Fighter

Alt Account
Banned
Aug 23, 2019
837
What do you mean the movie sucks? Do you mean the movie makes you feel sad and you don't like that emotion? I'm not sure I agree with "the movie sucks".

I don't agree with "white savior" either. He didn't save them. They all died anyway. He was the witness of all that senseless death.

It sucks in the sense that yeah, it's a super sad movie.
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

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Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
Well, the plot of the movie is that some Westerner shows up in a society where people have been training as warriors from birth, and after a few months he is one of the best katana fighters there, and is repelling a ninja attack to save the village.

We can quibble over whether it fulfills all of the aspects of the white savior trope, but it clearly has the element of "white guy quickly outclasses natives in their own culture."

To be fair, the character of Algren is not only a veteran soldier but he is clearly trained in some manner of fencing so he's not some white novice who picks up a sword for the first time and becomes Miyamoto Musashi.

Also, I disagree that he was "one of the best katana fighters there" given that his big victory was getting a singular draw on Ujio after getting his ass kicked repeatedly. He does kill that group of assassins and as you mention is able to stave of ninjas (who traditionally were nothing more than mercenary thugs anyway) so I'll concede there's Hollywood fantasy nonsense in the film but Cruise's character – at best – is a useful White Helper.

That said, the real question is why Hollywood thinks we need a white boy in a film stocked with so many brilliant Japanese actors because Cruise is the least compelling part of the film.
 

HamSandwich

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,605
I just rewatched this movie, still good but the story between Algren and Taka was completely unnecessary.
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
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Oct 28, 2017
8,958
Gotta love how every one of these threads turns into a bunch of people dismissing the experiences of Asians and the Asian diaspora being fed up with Hollywood films centering white protagonists in stories about Asia. Fragility, fragility, everywhere.

Well, I certainly wasn't intending to dismiss the legitimate concerns of Asians given that they are consistently being shortchanged in terms of representation on the big screen.

Honestly, it's pretty egregious when you consider garbage like this:

image

(Make a boring ass white boy the star of a Bruce Lee bio flick)

Also, I was a huge fan of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood but QT's decision to punk out Bruce Lee in that films was fucking disgraceful.

So yeah, I get where you're coming from and no disrespect intended.
 

Deleted member 4413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,238
My favorite Hans Zimmer soundtrack and one of his most unique. Listen to it all the time. Outstanding movie too.
 

Vinx

Member
Sep 9, 2019
1,411
It's a huge ridiculous oversimplification of actual history with a white dude inserted for no particular reason, so...par for the course?

I actually like the movie...and a lot of Japanese people did too.
What are you talking about? White dude inserted for no particular reason?

You are correct in that it is an oversimplification of actual history but its "inspired by" Jules Brunet, a French soldier that was sent to Japan to help train the Tokugawa Shogunate in modern weapons and tactics. Shortly after Emperor Meiji wanted to strip the shogunate of their titles and land which led to the Boshin War of 1868 - 1869, in which Brunet sided with Admiral Enomoto Takeaki against the imperial government.

Theres a white dude in the movie because it is based on a real white dude.

Eh, of well, every single topic about The Last Samurai is like this. Seems like every topic about Nioh as well.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,146
Greater Vancouver
I just like to remind people that the Samurais were perfectly comfortable using guns in warfare for hundreds of years before the movie time period.
The movie states that Watanabi's character backed away from using guns in protest to the increasing radical cultural shifts, before the actual rebellion began.

There was absolutely a period where his character and his followers presumably used firearms in service of the Emperor.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,146
Greater Vancouver
The samurai were essentially Make Japan Great Again clowns who hid in their compound and complained about the system being changed so that others could have rights. I'm not saying the film is bad but the politics are blinkered.
No lies. The samurai were dicks. As westerners, we fetishize a lot of the imagery around them, but there was plenty of shit they got away with.
 

Dhx

Member
Sep 27, 2019
1,688
The ironic thing about that claim is that it ignores the fundamental fact that the white man is saved by the Samurai and villagers.

Then again, some people still believe that the title - The Last Samurai - is an allusion to Cruise's character which is simply untrue. He is very clearly not the Last Samurai.

Thankfully, someone gets it right early for once. The Last Samurai is not Nathan Algren. The Last Samurai is Katsumoto.

Top 10 movie for me. It's damn near perfect.
 

AbsoluteZero0K

Alt Account
Banned
Dec 6, 2019
1,570
White dude who happens to be an already impressively trained warrior with extensive expertise in hand-to-hand combat, and war in general, arrives and gets his ass kicked repeatedly, brutally, for months until he finally learns to defend himself just a little bit.

The whole reason Algren was selected for his "mission" was that he was a warrior of great renown who was literally a living legend for his "heroic" (read: actually barbaric, insanely violent) exploits.

There are a lot of Hollywood movies that have serious problems with 'white savior' tropes and intentional/unintentional racism in how they depict their white characters interacting with other cultures. While The Last Samurai isn't perfect in this regard, I found it to be a lot more aware, and respectful, of those issues than most any other movie you could reasonably paint with this brush. Cruise's character isn't a white savior, he's painted from the opening scenes as a brutal savage who is responsible for countless atrocities against Native Americans, and someone we should rightfully despise.

I think the bigger problem with this movie is its whitewashing of Japanese history in general, painting the samurai as noble rebels fighting to preserve important Japanese tradition against an oppressive, tyrannical government, when the reality is that they just didn't want to give up their positions of power and privilege. By having the Meiji Restoration beseech someone like Algren to join their cause in the first place, the movie immediately paints them inaccurately and unfairly as villains trying to oppress people, and the samurai as saviors. My limited understanding of the history tells me the reality was quite different.

The tone-deafness of the movie is that it's a decidedly American interpretation of Japanese history and events with no real respect for the accuracy of that history or the people involved. Hollywood romanticizes samurai, so we got a movie romanticizing them without any respect given to reality.

I did say it was a good white savior movie.