Why is the Bloody Baron storyline in The Witcher 3 so praised? [Spoilers]

lorddarkflare · Jan 20, 2020

Not really sure what you want from the quest? It is a very shitty situation, and there are no good endings.

One my favorite aspects of it is the daughter taking things into her own hands.

Disclaimer said:
Played through it for the first time in just the past couple days, and felt similarly to you. Chose every option to condemn him, but it still left a bad taste. Game constantly allows the Baron to give excuse after excuse, then seek redemption, then either die piteously or take his abused wife back, rather than allowing her to go with her daughter as she originally planned.

Yes, the point is that regular people can be monstrous, how war breaks people, but the questline leans hard on humanizing the abuser rather than the abused. Because it's entirely from his perspective, it attempts to cast her disproportionately in bad light—"oh, no, the Baron's beatings didn't cause her miscarriage, actually it was her deal with the witches," "oh, Geralt, I think you'll feel differently about my abuses once I tell you how she cheated on me one time and says mean things to me by the way I slaughtered the innocent guy she cucked me with in front of her then beat her unconscious har har what else could I do with a 'hysterical' woman."

Up to where I am so far, I'd say the game's writing is often pretty sexist to misogynistic, and the camera is all male gaze all the time—the latter of which makes me less inclined to give their intentions with the former the benefit of the doubt. It certainly excels in many ways, but a good deal of the time I'm rolling my eyes frustratedly. The Baron's character felt clearly inspired by ASOIAF's Robert Baratheon, but the writing wasn't nearly as adept.

At least Johnny was a highlight of the questline.

Wait until Heart of Stone. That quest line does a fantastic job handling a similar situation from the perspective of the abusee. That quest actually allows you to punish the abuser in much more direct manner. If you choose.

Also, male-gaze stuff aside, this particular game itself is not overtly sexist or misogynistic, but its world 110% is. That is not a great feeling so, I get why that is a major turn off. Witcher 1 is definitely a sexist shit-heap though.

Doc Laserstein · Jan 20, 2020

GringoSuave89 said:
Iirc there is a loop hole. If you save the thing in the tree before meeting the Crones, there is no deal to break. Kids are saved, wife is spared.

I think you just break the quest if you do that. Anna survives, and there is a bit of dialogue that suggests the kids are alive, but the orphans never show up at the school in Novigrad as they do if you free the spirit during the quest.

TheKeyPit · Jan 20, 2020

Tortahegesztő said:
I don't think the Baron ever get justified or anything. It's just he's not a mustache twirling villain nor evil incarnate, but rather a real, life like person who has done horrible things.

This. He's a bad person, and they way it is told is superb.

SupremeWu · Jan 20, 2020

It's an important factor that the Baron helps Ciri by protecting her, taking in the little girl she was with, and then sending Ciri along her way with supplies/a horse. Geralt has a debt to him just for that, so even if you wanted Geralt to throw him out a window, character-wise he wouldn't.

Tya · Jan 20, 2020

Tell me more about the "good" endings to this quest.

Haze · Jan 20, 2020

Tortahegesztő said:
I don't think the Baron ever get justified or anything. It's just he's not a mustache twirling villain nor evil incarnate, but rather a real, life like person who has done horrible things.

This basically. He isn't cartoonish because abuse in real life is rarely cartoonish. I think the storyline does a good job of portraying that a grounded human is capable of such terrible things. The baron could easily be your neighbor, boss, or friend.

And the quest line at no point has a good ending for him.

TheUnsungHero26 · Jan 20, 2020

I feel Hearts of Stone did a much better job at portraying the sort of ideas that CDPR was going for with Blood Baron.

Not that the Bloody Baron quest line was bad, it's just that Hearts of Stone is on a whole other level.

GringoSuave89 · Jan 20, 2020

Doc Laserstein said:
I think you just break the quest if you do that. Anna survives, and there is a bit of dialogue that suggests the kids are alive, but the orphans never show up at the school in Novigrad as they do if you free the spirit during the quest.

I'll admit its been a while so that makes sense.

Ferrs · Jan 20, 2020

I agree. It was worse when at the end, his daughter wanted to take her mother and even her companions, which don't know the Baron, told him how he has changed and some bullshit. I mean you fuckers don't even know him!

I also can't see the praise, and I was about to drop the game there. Luckily there was better stories in this game that pushed me to the end.

TheUnsungHero26 said:
I feel Hearts of Stone did a much better job at portraying the sort of ideas what CDPR was going for with Blood Baron.

Not that the Bloody Baron quest line was bad, it's just that Hearts of Stone is on a whole other level.

I finished HoS 5 minutes ago lol and yeah I agree.

Tya · Jan 20, 2020

BAD said:
I have no clue, it felt like a shitty toilet humor barbarian plot from a bad paid cable edge show

Ferrs · Jan 20, 2020

Also, for the people that says that CDPR isn't pushing the Baron for atleast getting a redemption, l mean, the fucker is right here in this video

Deleted member 46948 · Jan 20, 2020

I think the reason it resonated that strongly with people is because it involves some gray moral choices and whatever you end up choosing, it ends horribly for some people who don't deserve it.

Deleted member 6263 · Jan 20, 2020

Ferrs said:
Also, for the people that says that CDPR isn't pushing the Baron as a good guy, l mean, the fucker is right here in this video

They also show Olgierd von Everec, doesn't mean that he's a good guy either. Baron's not in the main saluting pose at the end either, it's just a video showing a bunch of recognizable characters. That's not CDPR trying to shove a good guy narrative down your throat.

Deleted member 8860 · Jan 20, 2020

MrCibb said:
Geralt is trying to find Ciri above all else which he needs the Baron's help to do

It's too bad everyone in the region is immune to Geralt's mind-control abilities that he otherwise uses throughout the game.

Ferrs · Jan 20, 2020

Stiltzkin said:
They also show Olgierd von Everec, doesn't mean that he's a good guy either. Baron's not in the main saluting pose at the end either, it's just a video showing a bunch of recognizable characters. That's not CDPR trying to shove a good guy narrative down your throat.

Meh, could have put Cerys there and not that ass... atleast it's not Avalac'h ...

lorddarkflare · Jan 20, 2020

Ferrs said:
Meh, could have put Cerys there and not that ass... atleast it's not Avalac'h ...

Yeah, I would have liked her too.

The Baron is pretty recognizable though. Probably why he is there.

Deleted member 6263 · Jan 20, 2020

Ferrs said:
Meh, could have put Cerys there and not that ass... atleast it's not Avalac'h ...

True, I was surprised to see Ves in the video but I understand she was also a part of Witcher 2's story. Would've rather seen Cerys as well but, oh well it's just a nice video for the fans.

Gurgelhals · Jan 20, 2020

Claven said:
I think the reason it resonated that strongly with people is because it involves some gray moral choices and whatever you end up choosing, it ends horribly for some people who don't deserve it.

As a matter of fact, it also ends horribly for the inhabitants of Velen regardless of the outcome of the actual questline. It's the final gut punch that the game has in store for you after that entire rollercoaster of a questline: The Baron might have been a thoroughly wretched person, but at least he managed to keep his band of thugs on a leash. With him gone (it doesn't matter whether he killed himself or left with his wife), it's them who are left in charge and they're shown to be much, much worse...

valeo · Jan 20, 2020

cabelhigh said:
Lol the entire point of the Witcher as a franchise is that Witchers use that excuse to hide the fact that they have real emotions, and TW3 is about embracing those emotions as a father to Ciri. So, no.

It seems like you missed half of the dialogue options so I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.

darkslayer101 · Jan 20, 2020

Nazgûl said:
There is no good ending. Its about the lesser evil. Saw this comment on youtube some time ago. Hope it helps

The Baron diying:
its the best ending since:
1) the baron was abusing his wife and child, anna did abortus on a unborn child (its evil for you and for god) and tamara refused her dad to be back. we all knew this family cant live in peace anymore so does it matter anymore to choose for them? after all the evil things they did to each other?
2) the village are lying to you and are sacrificing children to the crones. having that motive to kill innocent children, yeah, the villagers dont deserve to live.
3) the crones are lying to you, twice! they said they were beautiful girls, turns out theyre monsters. lied about ciri and almost killed her. trapped the tree spirit. did kill the orphans in the swamp.
4) the tree spirit never lied to you, kept her word. freed the orphans in the swamp. ended the sacrifices in the village so no more childs could be fed to the crones. weakens to crones.

it is lesser evil to save the tree, making her able to save the kids, ending the sacrifices in the village.

it is more evil to obey the crones, letting anna and baron live and continue the family drama, killing the children, continue the child sacrifices, and killing the tree spirit.
why the game tells you it was more evil that the baron hang himself is that you spent time with him, knowing him, understanding him, helping him. yet you/he could not change the past.

The village was starving during the war time and the crones made sure they lived on by providing resources, in return for sending children but not all so as to continue families. Sure it is purely evil but desperate times can push folks to do things. In fact we learn from the orphans of what happened to their families if they didn't stay in such a community.
Not to mention the activities of the Crones continued regardless of you decision until you take em down for good later on (most of em anyway)

As for the Baron, yes what he did was simply wrong, pure evil, but you understand or dare I say ~~sympathize~~ empathize his viewpoint considering he spend his time fighting wars, which he clearly got PTSD from, while Anna was banging another dood. Not to mention the clear cut changes Baron is going through upon losing his family, especially with his actions with Ciri.

I find it hilarious that OP thinks is "Baron is a-hole, so what?"

Witcher stories are all about wanting to choose the lesser evil, but that in itself is subjective and never spelled out. Pick the evil you know or choose the unknown? Judging by the bleak attitude of witcher I would say the former is very enticing for the characters of the witcher, and they always chose the evil they know.

Of course HoS does a much better job at addressing this dichotomy.

Shodan14 said:
You're playing an emotionally stunted mutant who makes a living killing things. Perhaps try looking at it from that context.

Am I missing the punchline or the sarcasm in this post?

Starviper · Jan 20, 2020

I disagree with the OP in that I recall a number of choices during dialogue where you could lay into the baron, either by telling him he's a bad person or literally hitting him. You also don't "need" his help either.. There's ways of advancing the story/plot without finishing that quest line if you wanna avoid it entirely. That said, I think it is a good intro storyline to the world and sets it up as being fairly grim. The ending that I would think makes the most sense resulting in him being hanged, well.. He dies because he comes to terms with how big of a piece of shit he is.

Stratosphere · Jan 20, 2020

OP what game were you playing bruh?

newmoneytrash · Jan 20, 2020

Tortahegesztő said:
I don't think the Baron ever get justified or anything. It's just he's not a mustache twirling villain nor evil incarnate, but rather a real, life like person who has done horrible things.

this is *exactly* the strength of the storyline. he's not this unambiguously evil person the way that men who abuse their partners are often portrayed. it's a much more real and relatable example of domestic violence and is in no way excused or dismissed at all

cabelhigh · Jan 20, 2020

valeo said:
It seems like you missed half of the dialogue options so I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.

What are you talking about? You literally get the bad ending by being a bad dad.

Pelao · Jan 20, 2020

The Baron is a shitty person but a good character, I really enjoy his quest. The man is not evil incarnate, he's an abusive husband and a tyrant but he also shows some glimpses of goodness when he takes care of Ciri and the little girl.

You can absolutely condemn him for his actions, the dialogue option is right there, or you can just do whatever.

I enjoyed most of the dialogues with him in the game.

And at the end of the whole quest none of the endings is 100% a good one, someone dies or gets cursed. I like it a lot.

Deleted member 18379 · Jan 20, 2020

The fact that its just one quest out I don't even know how many and it's got it's own thread like 5 years after the game's release is kind mind blowing in itself. Really need to give this game another chance now that the show has warmed me up to the world a bit more.

MikeH · Jan 20, 2020

TheUnsungHero26 said:
I feel Hearts of Stone did a much better job at portraying the sort of ideas that CDPR was going for with Blood Baron.

Not that the Bloody Baron quest line was bad, it's just that Hearts of Stone is on a whole other level.

Yup, I always found interesting that some parallelisms can be made between Olgierd and the Blood Baron (between O'Dimm and the Crones too).

Not having to tie HoS to the main plot made it better than the Bloody Baron storyline IMO.

Cromat · Jan 20, 2020

1. It's the first big, fully-contained storyline in the game. It has memorable characters, memorable moments and weighty decisions. It's the first example of what the game does so we'll.

2. I don't remember the Baron being sympathetic, except insofar as he's a real human existing in a medieval, backwards society. He is not a good man but he does express regrets for his actions, and he paid for them dearly. Geralt can fully condemn him and doesn't even have to help.

3. The part with the dead baby is super memorable and extremely dark for a fantasy RPG, so it sticks with you.

Deleted member 46948 · Jan 20, 2020

Gurgelhals said:
As a matter of fact, it also ends horribly for the inhabitants of Velen regardless of the outcome of the actual questline. It's the final gut punch that the game has in store for you after that entire rollercoaster of a questline: The Baron might have been a thoroughly wretched person, but at least he managed to keep his band of thugs on a leash. With him gone (it doesn't matter whether he killed himself or left with his wife), it's them who are left in charge and they're shown to be much, much worse...

That's a good point. But honestly, Velen is shown to be a brutal and fairly shitty place to live regardless.

Deleted member 2840 · Jan 20, 2020

Fantastapotamus said:
The Baron is portrayed as a "sympathetic" character to show you that you don't have to be a mustache twirling villain to be a monster

Exactly. The Baron, as terrible as he is, is also an example of a human being, not a cliched caricature.
At the same time he did so many awful shit to his wife, he treated Ciri with the utmost respect and care.
At the same time his goons go around doing terrible shit, he's somehow able to maintain a modicum of "order".

The game never tells you outright "HES EVIL, LOOK HOW EVIL HE IS". You're supposed to come to your own conclusions. What are you, as Geralt, going to do about this man that beat his wife and killed her lover, but also saved your surrogate daughter and apparently feels guilty about everything he did? Does he deserve to try and make amends?

He's a super interesting character, and I loved the way CDPR dealt with him. Same I can say about Olgierd in Hearts of Stone.

take_marsh · Jan 20, 2020

It's been a while, but I never recall sympathizing with him. Empathy? Yes. That does not mean I share his sadness. I can see where he's coming from, but he's garbage that deserves severe punishment. For me, he understandably hung himself and then I played Gwent.

There was no winning. It's a great story that still offers a payoff, yet a bleak one. The Witcher's world in a nutshell.

80s Old School · Jan 20, 2020

Would that be consistent with Geralt's character to tell the baron he was wrong?

CurseVox · Jan 20, 2020

I don't think they "break their back" trying to justify beating his wife. That's kind of a naive way of looking at it. Being an alcoholic wife beater is obviously a reprehensible act in itself, but much like real life, there are layers to a persons story. Things aren't always black and white / good vs. evil. This was ultimately a tale about a broken man who made a huge mistake, tried to find redemption too late, and in the end, had to live with the result of his actions. As a player I didn't feel bad for him necessarily, but I did feel empathy about the situation as a whole... For him and his broken family. On one hand I'm glad the Bloody Baron was able to have remorse and understand how badly he fucked up, it just sucks that it was too little too late. The consequences were unavoidable. No matter what choices were made in that story line, the outcome wasn't very pleasant. As a player and as someone who lived through domestic abuse as a child, I appreciated the realism of that story.

Tyaren · Jan 20, 2020

The Baron is painted in a very condemning picture. He behaved like a monster, destroyed his family and was severily punished for it, unfortunately the rest of his family was as well. Incredibly dark and tragic. Geralt doesn't need to lecture him at that point for the players to get that message. No need to whack us over the head with the moral club. The game's writing is much better and nuanced than that.

Nacery · Jan 20, 2020

Because try to find me another game that has such a rich sidequest.

RedSwirl · Jan 20, 2020

The game up to that point, for like a good 20 hours, hypes up the Baron to be this big bad dude, through both dialogue and the world itself, which probably caused a lot of people to expect some typical video game villain, and when you finally get to him he turns out to be something completely different. It's the kind of swerve these kinds of big-budget RPGs haven't done at all, especially in a game with this wide a commercial reach.

lvl 99 Pixel · Jan 20, 2020

I can appreciate a well written, well acted and nuanced side story that involves the player in interesting ways. On its own its not the best story in a game, but as a quest in a much larger rpg its one of the most interesting.

Deleted member 60096 · Jan 20, 2020

newmoneytrash said:
this is *exactly* the strength of the storyline. he's not this unambiguously evil person the way that men who abuse their partners are often portrayed. it's a much more real and relatable example of domestic violence and is in no way excused or dismissed at all

lol no, no it isn't more "real" or "relatable". Real domestic violence doesn't have the universe bend over backwards to make the abusee look like a shitty person to try to pull a both sides approach to the situation.

Gurgelhals · Jan 20, 2020

Claven said:
That's a good point. But honestly, Velen is shown to be a brutal and fairly shitty place to live regardless.

Exactly. And then the game finds a way to twist the knife in even more...

For that matter, it brings the entire sub-plot full circle, because the whole buildup to the Baron's introduction is brilliant as well: The first time you hear his name is from the Nilfgaardian ambassador and the way he describes him makes him sound like a stereotypical, one-dimensional bandit leader / medieval backwater tyrant. This is reinforced when most players likely meet his thugs for the first time at the Inn at the Crossroads. But then, all these expectations are quickly subverted, the questline goes into a completely different direction, and suddenly, elements of ambiguity and nuance are brought into the picture. And then the end state of the questline, with the thugs in charge, basically represents what the game made you expect in the first place: raw, unchecked tyranny with not even the slightest hint of nuance and/or humanity. So, congratulations, you just made bad things even worse than they already were before.

Fuck, what a great game!

Deleted member 426 · Jan 20, 2020

It wasn't morally grey, it was clearly wrong. But it managed to convey his perspective and why he might genuinely see himself as in the right whilst not making him sympathetic. That's good writing.

newmoneytrash · Jan 20, 2020

SoZetaSlow said:
lol no, no it isn't more "real" or "relatable". Real domestic violence doesn't have the universe bend over backwards to make the abusee look like a shitty person to try to pull a both sides approach to the situation.

neither does this?

if you genuinely walked away from the bloody baron quest feeling like the implication was that his wife deserved it or that the violence was justified then i truly do not know what to tell you

Siggy-P · Jan 20, 2020

I think the ending to that quest were the baron lives can be seen in that way as, while it doesn't endorse the barons behaviour, it does give him a second chance which he doesn't deserve.

The suicide ending though I feel is much better and a lot more meaningful. The baron spends the whole quest making excuses with sheer determination that he's in the right. Then when it doesn't work he takes his own life. He knew all along that he was a piece of shit and didn't view himself as worthy of sympathy.

Even when he meets his daughter and his personna breaks away as he begs Geralt to vouch for him, the implication is that he was trying to convince himself more than anyone else.

SupremeWu · Jan 20, 2020

SoZetaSlow said:
lol no, no it isn't more "real" or "relatable". Real domestic violence doesn't have the universe bend over backwards to make the abusee look like a shitty person to try to pull a both sides approach to the situation.

The only real downside with a long quest like this is that everyone will have a different experience depending on their choices, dialogue and action. It's probably really easy to rush through it or make choices that cut off certain paths. This post is a good example -- at no point in my experience did his wife come off as anything but a victim. She had her own lover (which itself is a fact hidden in dialogue branches) but the game doesn't ever come close to saying she 'deserved it'. She's basically a desperate person trying to escape. Either her story concludes with tiny small chance of hope or complete tragedy.

If one reduces the whole storyline as victim blaming then I think that's either an issue with lazy interpretation or you want a reason to 'knock it down a peg'.

Kay · Jan 20, 2020

It's a good story line that's early enough in the game that all the reviewers who didn't finish Witcher 3 had a common discussion point. It built up from there.

InstantN00dles · Jan 20, 2020

For me where CDPR fucked up was somehow trying to redeem Avallach. Fuck that dude. The one person I wish you could fight and kill. Can't believe they had Cirilla even defend him.

Deleted member 29660 · Jan 20, 2020

The Baron is absolutely a bad person, he ain't called Good Baron now is he. The game doesn't show him to be a good person, everything you find out about him is negative. Your forced to work with him but it doesn't mean your helping him, you can help his daughter and his wife depending on your actions. The man is trash and you can get him to admit to his misdeeds. It's with the baby that came back as a botchling you can tell that he realizes what he's done. It doesn't mean he's forgiven or suddenly a good guy, hell depending on what you do you can get him to hang himself because his actions are that horrible and he loses everything due to it.

Keldroc · Jan 20, 2020

Nuance is what everyone wants but few can handle. OP should maybe stick to Detroit: Become Human for their domestic violence storylines.

Shelbyville Milhouse · Jan 20, 2020

I also really, really love the "double cross" with him.
When you first hear about him you hear that he is some crazy violent murderer and that you should stay away from him at all cost
Then you meet him and he seems like a nice guy (for the Witcher universe anyway) and his nickname just came from a misunderstanding and you're like "Aw man, you got me CDP. This guy is cool"
And then....well

It worked so, so well

newmoneytrash · Jan 20, 2020

Keldroc said:
Nuance is what everyone wants but few can handle. OP should maybe stick to Detroit: Become Human for their domestic violence storylines.

hahaha

lvl 99 Pixel · Jan 20, 2020

Keldroc said:
Nuance is what everyone wants but few can handle. OP should maybe stick to Detroit: Become Human for their domestic violence storylines.

Now im imagining how David Cage would have handled the segregation and xenophobia themes

Why is the Bloody Baron storyline in The Witcher 3 so praised? [Spoilers]

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