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cabelhigh

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,723
Full spoilers, obviously. Trigger warning for domestic assault, since it's part of the storyline.

Finally working through playthrough 2 of TW3, this time on Switch, and after 30 hours or so I just wrapped up the Bloody Baron storyline. I remember playing it in 2015 and not really getting the hype, but playing it now is just...icky.

The game basically breaks its back trying to justify this guy beating his wife, and make him into a sympathetic character. There are so many points where he can explain himself, or try to justify it, and they never give Geralt the ability to strongly condemn him. Its like: actually Anna didn't miscarry because of him beating her, it was magic! Actually Anna gave him a ton of valid reasons for wanting to beat her that he will happily explain in detail! Like, come on.

During the wrap up convo for Family Matters, the Baron finally tells you the whole story of the relationship. He says it was love at first sight, but then quickly brings up Anna's infidelity as justification for his actions, and for the reason he straight up killed Anna's lover. He then calls her psychotic and says she has episodes and again uses that to justify beating her.

You, as Geralt, cant condemn this. All you can say is, "well, if you hadn't gone off to war, she wouldn't have cheated on you". There is no option to say what he did was wrong under no circumstances, or break off contact with the Baron completely. The most you can really give is aggravated indifference.

I feel like this would make more sense if there was a gameplay reason for having him justify himself so much; like, if there was a choice at the end of the quest that was dependent on how much you sympathized with him and thought he deserved redemption. But theres not even that! Theres nothing!! His fate is resolved by a completely unconnected decision.

And after all of that, the "good" ending of the quest has the gaul to make the Baron and Anna going off together to try to rebuild their life, something she has no say in, from someone she's spent YEARS trying to run from and whose abused her countless times. That this is the "good" ending, and that we never actually get to know her character beyond what the Baron tells us, is disgusting as hell.

Why did this questline get so much praise? Was it the times? Would it be similarly received today?
 
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cabelhigh

cabelhigh

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,723
God damnit, mods, can you fix the title? That's what I get for writing this on a phone.
 

catboy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,322
The game basically breaks its back trying to justify this guy beating his wife, and make him into a sympathetic character. There are so many points where he can explain himself, or try to justify it, and they never give Geralt the ability to strongly condemn him. Its like: actually Anna didn't miscarry because of him beating her, it was magic! Actually Anna gave him a ton of valid reasons for wanting to beat her that he will happily explain in detail! Like, come on.
this is my main issue with it tbh. like, it's not "morally grey", being abusive is wrong.
 

Mentalist

Member
Mar 14, 2019
18,027
Always consider that one a head-scratcher. The plotline's not really all that different from the trashy Russian serials my parents watch almost every day on Youtube.

I mean, yeah, it's a topic Western media generally doesn't talk about. But there are other quest lines in the game more deserving of praise (personally Mortal Sins was probably my favourite)
 

Hawkster

Alt account
Banned
Mar 23, 2019
2,626
Always consider that one a head-scratcher. The plotline's not really all that different from the trashy Russian serials my parents watch almost every day on Youtube.

I mean, yeah, it's a topic Western media generally doesn't talk about. But there are other quest lines in the game more deserving of praise (personally Mortal Sins was probably my favourite)

I think you meant Carnal Sins which is one of my favorite storylines as well

I do find a bit of irony that a Vampire monster would be devoted to a fanatical religion that aims to kill people like him
 

Lowrys

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,398
London
You, as Geralt, cant condemn this. All you can say is, "well, if you hadn't gone off to war, she wouldn't have cheated on you". There is no option to say what he did was wrong under no circumstances, or break off contact with the Baron completely. The most you can really give is aggravated indifference.
I am pretty certain you can absolutely condemn him verbally for beating his wife.

Edit:

Yep, during the convo where he tells you the full story, your dialogue options are:

1. Seems you deserve each other
2. You're at fault
3. Can't say I care all that much about this
 

Mentalist

Member
Mar 14, 2019
18,027
I think you meant Carnal Sins which is one of my favorite storylines as well

I do find a bit of irony that a Vampire monster would be devoted to a fanatical religion that aims to kill people like him

Yeah, I got the name in Russian (the voicework for Zoltan's a million times better in the Russian version of these games, so I stick to that), and I just did the literal translation.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,916
I don't think the Baron ever get justified or anything. It's just he's not a mustache twirling villain nor evil incarnate, but rather a real, life like person who has done horrible things.
 

Roytheone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,156
It's the first big one so people that didn't complete it would still know it. It is also very dark and shocking and willing to go places most games don't. It sets the tone that this game really is willing to go to some fucked up places. Also the way the storyline basically interconnects with the main story and it branches of as a side quest that you could basically ignore if you want is cool.

I think it will still be praised if it released today.
 
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cabelhigh

cabelhigh

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,723
I am pretty certain you can absolutely condemn him verbally for beating his wife.

I played it last night. In the specific scene where he tells you the whole story, you cannot condemn him for beating his wife because she had a lover and had 'psychotic episodes', according to him. You can just be like, 'hey, maybe you shouldn't have gone off to war and she wouldn't have cheated on you'
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,742
The Baron isn't a good person, and even in the best possible ending you can get for him - the one where you do everything right - he's still not happy and his daughter still hates him.
 

Freezasaurus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,002
this is my main issue with it tbh. like, it's not "morally grey", being abusive is wrong.
I think it was "morally grey" only in the sense that either you save a bunch of kids from being eaten by forest witches, or this guy's wife dies and he ends up hanging himself. No way to give everyone a happy ending. The Baron himself was an absolute piece of shit. I don't think anyone would defend him on that count.
 

FinalDasa

Member
Oct 27, 2017
50
Florida
It wasn't praised because it had a character who was abusive.
It was praised because it was the first larger story quest you encountered.
It showed off the depth of writing, the complicated quests, and just how involved that game's storylines and paths could be.

I also don't remember Geralt approving of the abuse but it's been a while.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,057
I don't think the Baron ever get justified or anything. It's just he's not a mustache twirling villain nor evil incarnate, but rather a real, life like person who has done horrible things.
Exactly and to the idea that you can't condemn him, you absolutely can. I mean, you should probably look up he endings if you want to see how it can end.

I think it was "morally grey" only in the sense that either you save a bunch of kids from being eaten by forest witches, or this guy's wife dies and he ends up hanging himself. No way to give everyone a happy ending. The Baron himself was an absolute piece of shit. I don't think anyone would defend him on that count.
This is life though, the setting is absolutely brutal and the bloody Baron being so early in the game makes the player understand this isn't some fairytale where you get a 'good' ending, just different bad ones.
 

Lowrys

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,398
London
I played it last night. In the specific scene where he tells you the whole story, you cannot condemn him for beating his wife because she had a lover and had 'psychotic episodes', according to him. You can just be like, 'hey, maybe you shouldn't have gone off to war and she wouldn't have cheated on you'
I've quoted the dialogue choice. It's literally "You're at fault."
 

Buttzerker

Powerhouse Protector / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,017
I played it last night. In the specific scene where he tells you the whole story, you cannot condemn him for beating his wife because she had a lover and had 'psychotic episodes', according to him. You can just be like, 'hey, maybe you shouldn't have gone off to war and she wouldn't have cheated on you'

Sorry dude you missed something. You absolutely get multiple opportunities including in that very convo to have Geralt dig into Philip over his abuse. Geralt has specific dialogue calling him out over trying to justify his alcoholism and wifebeating.
 
Nov 3, 2017
1,641
Was OP half asleep during half the dialogue scenes or something? Anna was not in a fit mental state to make decisions for herself at the end of the storyline and the game has dialogue options to be very critical of the Baron.
 

Wil348

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,213
Having played through it recently, I can't remember his actions being justified. In fact Geralt hits him across the face when he finds out that he beat his wife. You also have the option to not help him, or to help him but for the benefit of his family in spite of his actions.
 

Papercuts

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,030
The ending where he lives and takes her to find a healer has all of the swamp children die. They survive in the one where he hangs himself.

You had quotes around it anyway but that isn't a "good" ending, neither one is. That's why the quest is praised, there is no moral black/white choice to make where everything is smoothly resolved. Baron is a miserable person who found solace in drinking, yet in doing so ruined everything close to him. He doesn't get a redemption from that, and you absolutely can condemn him as Geralt and still say he's completely at fault when he details what Anna did that made him snap. I think the nicest thing he can say is that they're both terrible people.
 

shinobi602

Verified
Oct 24, 2017
8,357
this is my main issue with it tbh. like, it's not "morally grey", being abusive is wrong.
I don't feel like CDPR implied the situation's morally gray. I'm pretty sure a vast majority of players probably concluded the Baron is an asshole after that quest. The quest just shows how the entire thing turned so shitty for everyone involved.
 

Bosch

Banned
May 15, 2019
3,680
Was OP half asleep during half the dialogue scenes or something? Anna was not in a fit mental state to make decisions for herself at the end of the storyline and the game has dialogue options to be very critical of the Baron.
Other thing he was not playing a game on 2020 context, It is a medieval game, so you should judge by that context not what world is nowadays...
 

daybreak

Member
Feb 28, 2018
2,415
Literally playing through this right now and although I'm not all the way through the quest line (but near the end) I feel like the game is nothing but critical of the Baron. You can call him out multiple times, and everyone surrounding him constantly says how terrible he was to Anna.

I just got the impression that since he has information Geralt requires he sticks around. I think it's pretty clear that Geralt does not approve.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,398
Melbourne, Australia
I'm pretty sure we all knew well enough that The Bloody Baron was a piece of shit in 2015 and that domestic abuse is a vile act so I don't think we can blame it on "the times". I think most people you ask will tell you they didn't like that they couldn't condemn him quite as much as you'd like either.

As for why it's so praised? I'm not sure, it's been a while. It's one of the first major quests that really sells how bleak The Witcher's world can be, I guess. I remember it being quite well acted too. I do think the way it feels like its own significant standalone short story yet is also woven into certain other quests and your search for Ciri is really well done. I think it's the first time the game shows its hand in that way and so makes an impression.
 
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cabelhigh

cabelhigh

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,723
Exactly and to the idea that you can't condemn him, you absolutely can. I mean, you should probably look up he endings if you want to see how it can end.

Having him hang himself because you made a choice that was unrelated to the Baron entirely is not 'condemning'. You cant stop the Baron from trying to 'save' Anna, you cant stop the Baron taking her away against her will if she survives, even if you strongly believe he should not be anywhere near his family again.

The storyline is clearly on the side of 'the Baron deserves redemption' here, whether the player has any say in it or not.
 

Braag

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,908
At no point did I feel like the game was forcing me to sympathize with him. The Baron was a shitty person who tried to justify his actions to Geralt with different excuses and Geralt needed him to find Ciri. You can even choose to show disinterest in his marital problems and just get on with finding his wife and daughter.
In the end, if you even decide to help him out with the crones, he either ends up hanging himself or is completely miserable and try to find a cure for his (probably permanently) mentally damaged wife.
He said time and time again that he is a changed man but whether he truly is a changed man, is left open.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
The Baron is portrayed as a "sympathetic" character to show you that you don't have to be a mustache twirling villain to be a monster
It would have been so, so, so easy to just write an completely one sided, deeply evil character that is super easy to hate but instead they tried something different. Maybe they didn't succeed everywhere but I vastly prefer this to just another guy who casually talks about how fun rape is.
 

No42.05W70.2

Banned
Jun 14, 2018
763
It was the most cogently written quest line in the game. Sandbox games rare notorious for disposable fetch quest narratives.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,398
Melbourne, Australia
Having him hang himself because you made a choice that was unrelated to the Baron entirely is not 'condemning'. You cant stop the Baron from trying to 'save' Anna, you cant stop the Baron taking her away against her will if she survives, even if you strongly believe he should not be anywhere near his family again.

The storyline is clearly on the side of 'the Baron deserves redemption' here, whether the player has any say in it or not.
I don't remember the game presenting it as the Baron being deserving of redemption at all.
 

MrCibb

Member
Dec 12, 2018
5,349
UK
To start with, got to remember Geralt isn't a blank character. All your choices are on the spectrum of what Geralt could realistically do or say, and Geralt is trying to find Ciri above all else which he needs the Baron's help to do. So there's no choice to completely walk away from the Baron because Geralt wouldn't walk away.

And I didn't think the game tried to make us sympathize with the Baron at all to be honest, and I remember Geralt berating him pretty hard too. What it did was humanize him, not make him sympathetic. He wasn't a good person by the end, fuck that guy, but he also wasn't some pantomime baddy I saw him as at the start. I thought it was extremely well done in that regard.
 

DJ_Lae

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,870
Edmonton
It's about so much more than the Baron's abuse, though, and the game doesn't glorify anything he's done other than not portray him as a complete monster (which, in the world of the Witcher, he absolutely is not). Geralt seems to put up with him only to the extent that he can fulfill the bargain - get what he needs to know about Ciri and get the fuck out of there.

And everything surrounding the Baron is fantastic, the setpieces, the characters, and the choices. You get the kids, the crones, the botchling, my man Johnny, and every resolution to the quest itself is varying degrees of bleak.
 

BurnKnuckle21

Member
Nov 17, 2017
1,035
It's almost like real life where the depths of people's characters aren't as clear and obvious as they are in most media. He's an asshole and the game doesn't try to justify that, he does. Just like real life assholes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
The game basically breaks its back trying to justify this guy beating his wife, and make him into a sympathetic character. There are so many points where he can explain himself, or try to justify it, and they never give Geralt the ability to strongly condemn him. Its like: actually Anna didn't miscarry because of him beating her, it was magic! Actually Anna gave him a ton of valid reasons for wanting to beat her that he will happily explain in detail! Like, come on.
But....that's exactly how those people are in real life.
It's always somebody else's fault, there is always another excuse. Like, you want the guy to brag about how evil he is?
 

Lowrys

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,398
London
Having him hang himself because you made a choice that was unrelated to the Baron entirely is not 'condemning'. You cant stop the Baron from trying to 'save' Anna, you cant stop the Baron taking her away against her will if she survives, even if you strongly believe he should not be anywhere near his family again.

The storyline is clearly on the side of 'the Baron deserves redemption' here, whether the player has any say in it or not.
Strongly disagree. Geralt isn't omnipotent. The Baron is the local ruler and has a militia. Short of Geralt murdering him, he can't stop the Baron from going after his wife.

Also, there's literally zero redemption for the Baron. His daughter wants nothing to do with him, and his wife is either dead or has lost her mind. He doesn't deserve sympathy, but he has to live - or die - knowing he ruined the lives of those closest to him.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,402
I thought it was weird how everyone there is presented differently when you are Ciri vs. Geralt. Maybe it was supposed to be some commentary on perception but it just felt disjointed.
 

Deleted member 55311

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 26, 2019
341
> The game basically breaks its back trying to justify this guy beating his wife, and make him into a sympathetic character.

Thank you. And because of his title and the time period this dude has all the power in the relationship. If he couldn't get over her being unfaithful he could literally move her somewhere else, find another spouse, and keep their child. There is no excuse for the drinking and beatings. I never understood why I was supposed to be saddened by his death. He isn't sympathetic at all.
 

spad3

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,125
California
TBH, every possible ending for that quest ends bad for the Baron one way or another. The dude is a really well made shitty person.
 

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
1000% agree. It's the worst (and most worrying for future quality, being so early) bit of writing in the game. Gamers wouldn't know empathy or good writing if it hit them over the head, but faux prestige tv Dark plotlines get instant praise. The game takes a significantly more interesting stab at the same ideas in the plot of the first dlc, though.

The game gets better later on, for sure.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
Having him hang himself because you made a choice that was unrelated to the Baron entirely is not 'condemning'. You cant stop the Baron from trying to 'save' Anna, you cant stop the Baron taking her away against her will if she survives, even if you strongly believe he should not be anywhere near his family again.

The storyline is clearly on the side of 'the Baron deserves redemption' here, whether the player has any say in it or not.

absolutely not. It paints him as an absolute monster. You are forced to work with him because of Ciri, but you can absolutely condemn him. I played Geralt as a "good" guy and had the option to smack him in the face when he reveals his abuse.
 

Papercuts

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,030
I think having him go off with Anna in the "good" ending implies redemption. He gets what he wants without any say of what Anna wants, with the promise that he'll get better. It keeps his path open for redemption.

Why is the good ending the one where all the kids die?

There is no "good" ending. That's the point.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
> The game basically breaks its back trying to justify this guy beating his wife, and make him into a sympathetic character.

Thank you. And because of his title and the time period this dude has all the power in the relationship. If he couldn't get over her being unfaithful he could literally move her somewhere else, find another spouse, and keep their child. There is no excuse for the drinking and beatings. I never understood why I was supposed to be saddened by his death. He isn't sympathetic at all.
Why do you think you were supposed to be saddened by his death?

I think having him go off with Anna in the "good" ending implies redemption. He gets what he wants without any say of what Anna wants, with the promise that he'll get better. It keeps his path open for redemption.
Isn't the ending you keep calling the "good" ending the one where all the kids die?