public gatherings of more than 50 people will be banned starting Sunday, just announced
public gatherings of more than 50 people will be banned starting Sunday, just announced
They'll still jump through hoops to claim schools aren't gatherings though.
I'm still undecided about closing schools. I work at a hospital, and if kids no longer have anywhere to be a lot of staff will no longer be able to come in to work. And leaving them with grandparents will expose a lot of elderly people. On the other hand, it's a given that the virus is having the time of its unlife in the schools at the moment.
You wouldn't see much of a difference early on especially when your comparing relative low initial numbers. They always repeat flattening the peak for a reason their designed to do that so the health infrastructure doesn't fail and slow but not prevent spread. Their both pretty early on this, you likely won't get any real idea until somewhere closer to 20 days after the 10th death.How much of a measurable effect has closing schools actually had in other countries? Too early to tell? Both Norway and Denmark have closed theirs and their numbers look don't look too far off from ours from what I can glance.
Schools are the main pathway for transmission for just about every illness ...the difference here is how well does is transmit with asymptomatic children. If it's even a little bit schools would still be a huge problem so there's like a 99% chance it's a good idea.How much of a measurable effect has closing schools actually had in other countries? Too early to tell? Both Norway and Denmark have closed theirs and their numbers look don't look too far off from ours from what I can glance.
It's going to be interesting following the next week then as it's still early, all Nordic countries should then start diverging more and more with Sweden getting the worst numbers which would confirm the effects of tighter restrictions in other countries. Still hoping for the best though.You wouldn't see much of a difference early on especially when your comparing relative low initial numbers. They always repeat flattening the peak for a reason their designed to do that so the health infrastructure doesn't fail and slow but but not prevent spread. Their both pretty early on this, you likely won't get any real idea until somewhere closer to 20 days after the 10th death.
I'm still undecided about closing schools. I work at a hospital, and if kids no longer have anywhere to be a lot of staff will no longer be able to come in to work. And leaving them with grandparents will expose a lot of elderly people. On the other hand, it's a given that the virus is having the time of its unlife in the schools at the moment.
emergency daycare and schools exist like they do in every other country that closed schools and daycare institutions
this is the fifth time this nonsensical excuse comes up. What are the media / government telling Swedes?
emergency daycare and schools exist like they do in every other country that closed schools and daycare institutions
this is the fifth time this nonsensical excuse comes up. What are the media / government telling Swedes?
The problem is kids probably have maybe a hundred different opportunities to spread germs every day at school then at home you constantly physically interact with them. So even they are 90% less contagious given enough opportunity they will get infected every time.The argument from Folkhälsomyndigheten (I'm not saying whether it's good or bad) is that reports from China point to children not being nearly as easily infected, and that they tend to have very mild symptoms (they say that generally more symptoms = more infectious), i.e. children do not drive this epidemic in a significant way and thus the bad effects of closing schools outweigh any small positive gain.
Have you been in Sthlm all your life, or did you move there and if so have you noticed that people are less socially distant in Sthlm than elsewhere?I keep reading/hearing things like "us swedish people are so good at following governmental recommendation, so we don't need an actual ban on things" from Anders Tegnell and journalists. Where is this coming from?
it really isn't reflected when me or my partner are forced to go outside or the fact people are still talking about having private parties / ski resorts. Maybe our part of Stockholm is just full of people who give zero fucks?
There must be more to it that they just are not sharing, right? cause it can't just be based on basically "Swedish people are special"
A concerning number of people in Småland seem to not have gotten the memo, either, from what I hear.[
Have you been in Sthlm all your life, or did you move there and if so have you noticed that people are less socially distant in Sthlm than elsewhere?
It's just anecdotal but after Löfven's speech last weekend there was a joke going around that the speech was good and had an impact, it was just a shame that everyone in Sthlm was busy at an After Ski when he did the speech.
How much of a measurable effect has closing schools actually had in other countries? Too early to tell? Both Norway and Denmark have closed theirs and their numbers look don't look too far off from ours from what I can glance.
* You don't mention that there have been instructions to ALWAYS stay home from work, for any kind of sickness symptoms.
* You don't mention that the (payed) sick leave can now be 2 weeks without any requirement for a doctor 's opinion.
* You don't mention that elderly and people with disease (that causes them to be at risk) are instructed to keep themselves isolated.
1. Grandparents usually don't live with their children in Sweden.
2. Elderly people has been instructed to currently not make unnecessary contact.
3. Closing schools would mean that a working parent has to be at home with the children. Which means that the hospitals will loose a lot of staff for day-caring parents.
All the points in the post you quoted are accurate and widely followed which is part of why many sectors are reporting a higher staff shortage than usual, and the post also doesn't make any mention of "Karensdag"* which I assume you mean, which makes me wonder if your comment is referring to another post?I don't know what Karenstag is but this is all true of places suffering terrible infection and death rates by doing too little too late.
I love how some swedish here are downplaying what's happening and over estimating the impact of the small measure they put in place. But sweden strategy seems to be to test as little as possible so I'm guessing their mortality rate will skyrocket "by chance" in the next month.
This is one aspect of it. The other is handing responsibility of children to grandparents and other elderly, when protecting the risk groups is a main priority. That's hardly a nonsensical argument. I don't even know where I stand on this particular matter, and am not really trying to argue for or against it at the moment. I also don't necessarily think it's as easy as you make it out to be.
Considering I'm not even taking a side in this particular matter, you're coming off awfully hostile. This is a complicated issue.
Um ... the point is that with the continuing education in special schools for children of those those that have to work (healthcare workers, for example) nothing actually changes for them. So there is no handing over to grandparents. Life continues as normal.
As is happening in other countries. Like Denmark, for example.
I'm sorry, but spreading this myth, twice on this page alone, means you are part of the problem.
Anders Tegnell gave examples of this at the press conference today, watch it if you're interested what he's actually saying rather than some second-hand interpretations. It's nothing about "swedish people are special".I keep reading/hearing things like "us swedish people are so good at following governmental recommendation, so we don't need an actual ban on things" from Anders Tegnell and journalists. Where is this coming from?
it really isn't reflected when me or my partner are forced to go outside or the fact people are still talking about having private parties / ski resorts. Maybe our part of Stockholm is just full of people who give zero fucks?
There must be more to it that they just are not sharing, right? cause it can't just be based on basically "Swedish people are special"
This makes little sense. The whole point you're arguing for is that the majority of children will not be in school, and thus likely be handed over to older relatives when parents who are unable to work from home leave their homes. Unless you are actually proposing an absolute lockdown, even preventing people going to work or the shops. And that seems an unlikely course of action at this time.
I also take offence in being accused of being part of a "problem." It's an unneccesarily hostile tone. I'm actually working in healthcare during this catastrophe, and the arguments of whether the schools should be closed or not is something that is certainly debated in the workplace, without anyone accusing each other of perpetuating harmful myths.
Seriously, can you actually read? Two of my last three posts, both on this page:
To make it seriously, painfully clear. I am arguing for:
1. General school closure.
2. Schools remaining open only for children of people who have jobs deemed necessary, like healthcare workers.
I at no point have argued for " the majority of children will not be in school, and thus likely be handed over to older relatives when parents who are unable to work from home leave their homes". At no point. Ever.
Read what I am writing, not what you think I am writing.
This is what other countries are doing. I even gave you links showing how the UK and Denmark were doing it. There is no reason why Sweden cannot as well.
I can read, and you're saying that schools will only be open for children with parents with necessary jobs. Since we're not in a situation where people with jobs that are deemed not necessary are given the opportunity to stay home from their jobs, that would mean a lot of children would need supervison. Not everybody can work from home.
If the state would give a decree that only people with "necessary" jobs would be allowed to go to their jobs, fine. That's not where we are, and I have a hard time seeing us getting there, as people need their salaries to live, even during the pandemic.
That's not where we are, and I have a hard time seeing us getting there, as people need their salaries to live, even during the pandemic.
Maybe I am emotional, but this shit scares me. As a type 1 diabetic I am in one of the big three risk groups that the WHO mentions. I am so far up to four family members who are infected back in the UK, including my cousin's daughter who is of kindergarten age and the family believes she caught it in kindergarten.
The nonchalant attitude of the average Swede right now is starting to get to me.
But I apologise for calling you part of the problem.As you can tell I have massive issues with how Sweden is handling this and I am fed up of seeing the same arguments without even trying to look at how they are implemented in other countries. But I made a bad choice of words.
Maybe. I'm not even saying you're wrong.
But we're not there. If you want to have a discussion, and you're not actually basing your arguments on the reality we live in, next time please specify that before you accuse me of being illiterate.
I get that it's a stressful situation, and I saw from your posts earlier in this thread that you're in a high risk group. I'm sorry about that, it really sucks and I genuinely hope you stay safe. These are terrifying times. But no one in this thread is in a position of power, so let's be reasonable towards each other. We all want this to end well.
No worries. These are trying times. I hope you stay healthy through them. I'm not happy about how everything has been handled either, and at the moment I wish Stockholm would be quarantined off before we spread this all over the country.
I'm not happy about how everything has been handled either, and at the moment I wish Stockholm would be quarantined off before we spread this all over the country.
I'll second this. I truly, from the bottom of my heart wish you all the best in Stockholm, but down here in Scania there's a growing concern over the influx of people from the capital "quarantining" themselves in their summer residences (see the thread about mainland Americans flying to Hawaii to "quarantine in paradise"). I mean, I get it. I really do. Fear makes people selfish. Someone who finds themselves in a hotbed of infection will probably want to get the heck out of there to minimise their own risk of being infected, but they could very well be screwing over the rest of us by bringing the infection with them as asymptomatic carriers. Especially since people tend to see this whole thing more as a forced vacation than a cause for social isolation.Oh and if it isn't clear, I live in Stockholm. This places need a lockdown. Other areas may be able to be more relaxed, looked at on a case by case basis, but here needs it.
I'll second this. I truly, from the bottom of my heart wish you all the best in Stockholm, but down here in Scania there's a growing concern over the influx of people from the capital "quarantining" themselves in their summer residences (see the thread about mainland Americans flying to Hawaii to "quarantine in paradise"). I mean, I get it. I really do. Fear makes people selfish. Someone who finds themselves in a hotbed of infection will probably want to get the heck out of there to minimise their own risk of being infected, but they could very well be screwing over the rest of us by bringing the infection with them as asymptomatic carriers. Especially since people tend to see this whole thing more as a forced vacation than a cause for social isolation.
Nota bene: This is not unique to residents of Stockholm.
I've realised that I'm pretty hardline when it comes to eliminating non-essential travel during a pandemic, which is something other countries have been a lot more strict about compared to Sweden. Heck, the entire reason we have an increased risk of pandemics in the 21st century in the first place is because we're more mobile than ever before. It's the moving around of humans which facilitates and worsens pandemics. Whether it's people moving from Stockholm to Scania, from L.A. to Hawaii, from Italy to Sweden, from Sweden to Norway, or from Oslo to rural Norway. Whether you're showing symptoms or not. I don't see Sweden pushing for something akin to the hytteförbud in Norway, but I believe it was a sound decision, and I suppose it shows that they don't believe that spreading people out from the urban areas into the "periphery" will achieve anything.The flipside is that they're moving away from areas with high population densities to areas with low ones. The virus is already present in every part of the country anyway. I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing if people with no symptoms leave Stockholm for a while, in a best case scenario someone choosing to take an early vacation in their cottage in Scania might even be less at risk of catching and spreading the infection. The only real downside is the possibility of stressing local healthcare systems but regional cooperation is decent enough that this shouldn't be an insurmountable problem.
You are correct and the person you quoted hasn't really thought it through. It is also the reason why a meeting of 30 people that normally don't meet is worse than a school class with the same people every day. Thus travel and events are toxic as hell.I've realised that I'm pretty hardline when it comes to eliminating non-essential travel during a pandemic, which is something other countries have been a lot more strict about compared to Sweden. Heck, the entire reason we have an increased risk of pandemics in the 21st century in the first place is because we're more mobile than ever before. It's the moving around of humans which facilitates and worsens pandemics. Whether it's people moving from Stockholm to Scania, from L.A. to Hawaii, from Italy to Sweden, from Sweden to Norway, or from Oslo to rural Norway. Whether you're showing symptoms or not. I don't see Sweden pushing for something akin to the hytteförbud in Norway, but I believe it was a sound decision, and I suppose it shows that they don't believe that spreading people out from the urban areas into the "periphery" will achieve anything.
Also: They're only low population density areas before people flock there.
Better worded: People moving into a low population density area gradually turns it into a higher population density area, with all that it entails, infection-wise.
I absolutely realise that there are conflicting opionions on this within Sweden, and I wouldn't argue fiercely against someone who disagrees. Many different opinions are valid. My personal take is that I look at what facilitates pandemics on a global scale and apply it to travel as a general concept, because there's no reason why the rules of infection would differ significantly when the scale shifts.
I keep reading/hearing things like "us swedish people are so good at following governmental recommendation, so we don't need an actual ban on things" from Anders Tegnell and journalists. Where is this coming from?
it really isn't reflected when me or my partner are forced to go outside or the fact people are still talking about having private parties / ski resorts. Maybe our part of Stockholm is just full of people who give zero fucks?
There must be more to it that they just are not sharing, right? cause it can't just be based on basically "Swedish people are special"
I keep reading/hearing things like "us swedish people are so good at following governmental recommendation, so we don't need an actual ban on things" from Anders Tegnell and journalists. Where is this coming from?
it really isn't reflected when me or my partner are forced to go outside or the fact people are still talking about having private parties / ski resorts. Maybe our part of Stockholm is just full of people who give zero fucks?
There must be more to it that they just are not sharing, right? cause it can't just be based on basically "Swedish people are special"
Nothing swedes love more than a uteservering on a sunny spring day :/
Everyone thinks they're special until they get a reality check.I think what really gets me is how many countries and its citizens act like we haven't already seen the devastating effects in other countries and the consequences of such an irresponsible, blasé attitude. We already know the importance of acting before healthcare systems--which are already stretched thin--are completely at their breaking points. And by the time they're at the same point, they will scramble and it will be too late.
Sometimes I think that even if Swedes were threatened with indiscriminate sniper fire if they went outside during the first sunny days of spring, it still wouldn't be enough to keep them indoors.
Fuck it. Deleted it.
Sweden needs to do this:
1. Only essential jobs going to work. This apparently is the only way we will stop people going skiing, going drinking in full bars and basically pretending there is no problem.
2. Schools open only for children of those deemed to need to go to work.