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I think this is about the first one where it's actually gone beyond just a recommendation, this is actually legally enforced and could result in fines or imprisonment however it only covers public gatherings not private ones so it's likely easy to work around it for many.
Yeah, I just read that SkiStar will keep their ski resorts open and that the 50+ban does not effect their "core-business". They said in a statement that they are working and following the guidelines and recommendations from Folkhälsomyndigheten. in a comment to Dagens Industri whos website is garbage so I can't find a direct link
They'll still jump through hoops to claim schools aren't gatherings though.
I'm still undecided about closing schools. I work at a hospital, and if kids no longer have anywhere to be a lot of staff will no longer be able to come in to work. And leaving them with grandparents will expose a lot of elderly people. On the other hand, it's a given that the virus is having the time of its unlife in the schools at the moment.
Other countries have plans for this sort of thing. Often it includes keeping some schools open just for the children of necessary staff. For example this is what was announced when the UK decided to close schools:
COVID-19: English schools to remain open for children of NHS staff
Government says closures will not extend to children of key workers on coronavirus front line
rcni.com
Or even how a neighbour, Denmark, is going about it:
Nødpasning af børn | Coronavirus/COVID-19 i Danmark | Politi
Kommunerne tilbyder nødpasning af børn, hvis skole eller dagtilbud er lukket. Information om kriterier for nødpasning fra Børne- og Undervisningsministeriet.
politi.dk
I keep hearing this same argument over and over again in Sweden. I'd say that perhaps Sweden should look at how other countries dealt with it, but looking at other countries has been the exact opposite of how Sweden has handled this.
How much of a measurable effect has closing schools actually had in other countries? Too early to tell? Both Norway and Denmark have closed theirs and their numbers look don't look too far off from ours from what I can glance.
You wouldn't see much of a difference early on especially when your comparing relative low initial numbers. They always repeat flattening the peak for a reason their designed to do that so the health infrastructure doesn't fail and slow but not prevent spread. Their both pretty early on this, you likely won't get any real idea until somewhere closer to 20 days after the 10th death.
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Schools are the main pathway for transmission for just about every illness ...the difference here is how well does is transmit with asymptomatic children. If it's even a little bit schools would still be a huge problem so there's like a 99% chance it's a good idea.
It's going to be interesting following the next week then as it's still early, all Nordic countries should then start diverging more and more with Sweden getting the worst numbers which would confirm the effects of tighter restrictions in other countries. Still hoping for the best though.
OP
OP
emergency daycare and schools exist like they do in every other country that closed schools and daycare institutions
this is the fifth time this nonsensical excuse comes up. What are the media / government telling Swedes?
Not only was I laid off from work with 24 other people from my work of a total of around 100ish employees, now I'm also got permitterad. More and more uncertainty yay. At least I got whole next week off.. as it stands I will make it pretty ok financially for like 3-4 more months after that I'll have to negotiate my rent. Can't afford current rent + bills + food on A-Kassa.
I work in the media and event sector and that it has completely died off, probably for the rest of the year as I see it. Won't be any concerts or festivals in summer or anything fun going around in Sweden.
Personally the virus is like the least of my fears, I'm already good at social distancing and I rarely ever catch anything or if I do I never have any bad symptoms. Haven't been really sick since my teens when I got measles. I also live in a smaller city outside Gothenburg that have barely had any cases yet.
2020 really became a shit year.
I work in the media and event sector and that it has completely died off, probably for the rest of the year as I see it. Won't be any concerts or festivals in summer or anything fun going around in Sweden.
Personally the virus is like the least of my fears, I'm already good at social distancing and I rarely ever catch anything or if I do I never have any bad symptoms. Haven't been really sick since my teens when I got measles. I also live in a smaller city outside Gothenburg that have barely had any cases yet.
2020 really became a shit year.
This is one aspect of it. The other is handing responsibility of children to grandparents and other elderly, when protecting the risk groups is a main priority. That's hardly a nonsensical argument. I don't even know where I stand on this particular matter, and am not really trying to argue for or against it at the moment. I also don't necessarily think it's as easy as you make it out to be.
Considering I'm not even taking a side in this particular matter, you're coming off awfully hostile. This is a complicated issue.
The argument from Folkhälsomyndigheten (I'm not saying whether it's good or bad) is that reports from China point to children not being nearly as easily infected, and that they tend to have very mild symptoms (they say that generally more symptoms = more infectious), i.e. children do not drive this epidemic in a significant way and thus the bad effects of closing schools outweigh any small positive gain.
The problem is kids probably have maybe a hundred different opportunities to spread germs every day at school then at home you constantly physically interact with them. So even they are 90% less contagious given enough opportunity they will get infected every time.
I keep reading/hearing things like "us swedish people are so good at following governmental recommendation, so we don't need an actual ban on things" from Anders Tegnell and journalists. Where is this coming from?
it really isn't reflected when me or my partner are forced to go outside or the fact people are still talking about having private parties / ski resorts. Maybe our part of Stockholm is just full of people who give zero fucks?
There must be more to it that they just are not sharing, right? cause it can't just be based on basically "Swedish people are special"
it really isn't reflected when me or my partner are forced to go outside or the fact people are still talking about having private parties / ski resorts. Maybe our part of Stockholm is just full of people who give zero fucks?
There must be more to it that they just are not sharing, right? cause it can't just be based on basically "Swedish people are special"
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It's just anecdotal but after Löfven's speech last weekend there was a joke going around that the speech was good and had an impact, it was just a shame that everyone in Sthlm was busy at an After Ski when he did the speech.
Have you been in Sthlm all your life, or did you move there and if so have you noticed that people are less socially distant in Sthlm than elsewhere?
It's just anecdotal but after Löfven's speech last weekend there was a joke going around that the speech was good and had an impact, it was just a shame that everyone in Sthlm was busy at an After Ski when he did the speech.
A concerning number of people in Småland seem to not have gotten the memo, either, from what I hear.
Comfirmed cases is not really a reliable number. For instance, Norway is one of the countries with most tests pr. capita in the world (more than SK, only behind Bahrain and Iceland if I remember correctly). Two days ago Sweden had done a third of Norway's test numbers with twice the population (24 500 tests vs 78.892). Deaths are Sweden: 105, Norway: 19. (Though it's probably too early to look at death numbers too.)
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I don't know what Karenstag is but this is all true of places suffering terrible infection and death rates by doing too little too late.
I love how some swedish here are downplaying what's happening and over estimating the impact of the small measure they put in place. But sweden strategy seems to be to test as little as possible so I'm guessing their mortality rate will skyrocket "by chance" in the next month.
All the points in the post you quoted are accurate and widely followed which is part of why many sectors are reporting a higher staff shortage than usual, and the post also doesn't make any mention of "Karensdag"* which I assume you mean, which makes me wonder if your comment is referring to another post?
* normally the "karensdag" is the first day of your sick leave, during which you are without pay. From day 2 onwards you have 80% of your pay, for, now it's up to 3 weeks I believe? Now you get paid from day 1 which is an incentive to stay at home even with mild symptoms, as it doesn't effect your salary that much.
Sweden's strategy to basically everything is "let's do this slowly, calmly and wait and see".
That works for 99% of the things out there. Unfortunately this could well be part of the other 1%. And if it is it could well be too late to do anything effective about it.
Um ... the point is that with the continuing education in special schools for children of those those that have to work (healthcare workers, for example) nothing actually changes for them. So there is no handing over to grandparents. Life continues as normal.
As is happening in other countries. Like Denmark, for example.
I'm sorry, but spreading this myth, twice on this page alone, means you are part of the problem.
This makes little sense. The whole point you're arguing for is that the majority of children will not be in school, and thus likely be handed over to older relatives when parents who are unable to work from home leave their homes. Unless you are actually proposing an absolute lockdown, even preventing people going to work or the shops. And that seems an unlikely course of action at this time.
I am fully aware that this is a sensitive topic, but anyone who claims to have absolutely certain answers on how to deal with this crisis is honestly lying to themselves. The actual experts in this field can't agree. I'm critical about a lot of ways this has been handled in Sweden, and as I've already made very clear, I'm not even arguing that schools shouldn't be closed. Only that I'm undetermined on what I believe is the correct way to handle that particular matter. I'm far from certain that our current course of action is correct, and the only way to properly evaluate it is unfortunately counting the bodies during the aftermath. That said, I'm not sure if you think this thread is meant to be a forum for discussion or a feedback loop?
I also take offence in being accused of being part of a "problem." It's an unneccesarily hostile tone. I'm actually working in healthcare during this catastrophe, and the arguments of whether the schools should be closed or not is something that is certainly debated in the workplace, without anyone accusing each other of perpetuating harmful myths.
Anders Tegnell gave examples of this at the press conference today, watch it if you're interested what he's actually saying rather than some second-hand interpretations. It's nothing about "swedish people are special".
Fuck it. Deleted it.
Sweden needs to do this:
1. Only essential jobs going to work. This apparently is the only way we will stop people going skiing, going drinking in full bars and basically pretending there is no problem.
2. Schools open only for children of those deemed to need to go to work.
Then your children, if any, would have a school to go to under this. Exactly how it is done in other countries. I don't think it is hostile tone, it is frustration with hearing the same arguments again and again whilst completely ignoring what is going on in other countries. Which is something you, and Sweden in general, have done.
Maybe I am emotional, but this shit scares me. As a type 1 diabetic I am in one of the big three risk groups that the WHO mentions. I am so far up to four family members who are infected back in the UK, including my cousin's daughter who is of kindergarten age and the family believes she caught it in kindergarten.
The nonchalant attitude of the average Swede right now is starting to get to me.
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I can read, and you're saying that schools will only be open for children with parents with necessary jobs. Since we're not in a situation where people with jobs that are deemed not necessary are given the opportunity to stay home from their jobs, that would mean a lot of children would need supervison. Not everybody can work from home.
If the state would give a decree that only people with "necessary" jobs would be allowed to go to their jobs, fine. That's not where we are, and I have a hard time seeing us getting there, as people need their salaries to live, even during the pandemic.
We need to be.
I got talked down to a few pages back for comparing per capita infection numbers between the UK and Sweden. I was told that the UK had so many more deaths and if anything Sweden are reporting more infections per death than the UK has, apparently showing less people dying in Sweden. I believe the argument was that most of the infections were healthy people coming back from ski trips in Italy and not the same type of people getting infected in the UK.
Well a few days later and the UK is up to 759 deaths and Sweden 92. So the UK is now at 8.25x the deaths of Sweden with 6x the population. Sweden is scarily catching up.
And most countries have offered aid packages to those people. In the UK it is a capped (I believe) 80% of wages and they have announced a similar level for self employed people. This is what other countries are doing in some way shape or form. Not all of them, but there's a lot of it going about.
It isn't just for wages. This allows for companies to possibly remain open during the crisis as the wage bill is no longer on them.
But I apologise for calling you part of the problem.As you can tell I have massive issues with how Sweden is handling this and I am fed up of seeing the same arguments without even trying to look at how they are implemented in other countries. But I made a bad choice of words.
In my defence I have this going on (reposted from my edited post earlier):
Maybe. I'm not even saying you're wrong.
But we're not there. If you want to have a discussion, and you're not actually basing your arguments on the reality we live in, next time please specify that before you accuse me of being illiterate.
I get that it's a stressful situation, and I saw from your posts earlier in this thread that you're in a high risk group. I'm sorry about that, it really sucks and I genuinely hope you stay safe. These are terrifying times. But no one in this thread is in a position of power, so let's be reasonable towards each other. We all want this to end well.
No worries. These are trying times. I hope you stay healthy through them. I'm not happy about how everything has been handled either, and at the moment I wish Stockholm would be quarantined off before we spread this all over the country.
The problem is, as a foreigner in Sweden (although of 20 years and now a citizen) if there's one thing I think sums up the Swedish view on these things it is "Sweden is right", "other countries do it wrong", "if something bad happens in another country it is because they do not do it the Swedish way". I've seen it over so many things in the past two decades, from the trivial to the serious like this. And it frustrates me as that intense nationalism, which frankly it is, means next to no learning from other countries.
And then we see people going skiing. Yes, they dumb shit like that in the UK. They got closed pretty much as soon as it happened.
It went from this:
Welsh tourist spots see visitor spike amid coronavirus outbreak | ITV News
Snowdonia National Park saw its busiest day ever on Saturday, according to the park authority. | ITV News Wales
www.itv.com
To this:
Busiest mountain sites in Snowdonia closed amid coronavirus lockdown | ITV News
The Park Authority hopes the measures will ensure that "last weekend’s unprecedented scenes will not be repeated this coming weekend." | ITV News Wales
www.itv.com
But the government in Sweden does nothing about the ski resorts.
Indeed. I want zero people to be infected. I have already expressed dismay on here and on Facebook where people have shown happiness at Boris Johnson and Prince Charles getting infected and excited about the possibility of Trump doing it.
We should be above all that.
Oh and if it isn't clear, I live in Stockholm. This places need a lockdown. Other areas may be able to be more relaxed, looked at on a case by case basis, but here needs it.
I'll second this. I truly, from the bottom of my heart wish you all the best in Stockholm, but down here in Scania there's a growing concern over the influx of people from the capital "quarantining" themselves in their summer residences (see the thread about mainland Americans flying to Hawaii to "quarantine in paradise"). I mean, I get it. I really do. Fear makes people selfish. Someone who finds themselves in a hotbed of infection will probably want to get the heck out of there to minimise their own risk of being infected, but they could very well be screwing over the rest of us by bringing the infection with them as asymptomatic carriers. Especially since people tend to see this whole thing more as a forced vacation than a cause for social isolation.
Nota bene: This is not unique to residents of Stockholm.
The flipside is that they're moving away from areas with high population densities to areas with low ones. The virus is already present in every part of the country anyway. I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing if people with no symptoms leave Stockholm for a while, in a best case scenario someone choosing to take an early vacation in their cottage in Scania might even be less at risk of catching and spreading the infection. The only real downside is the possibility of stressing local healthcare systems but regional cooperation is decent enough that this shouldn't be an insurmountable problem.
I've realised that I'm pretty hardline when it comes to eliminating non-essential travel during a pandemic, which is something other countries have been a lot more strict about compared to Sweden. Heck, the entire reason we have an increased risk of pandemics in the 21st century in the first place is because we're more mobile than ever before. It's the moving around of humans which facilitates and worsens pandemics. Whether it's people moving from Stockholm to Scania, from L.A. to Hawaii, from Italy to Sweden, from Sweden to Norway, or from Oslo to rural Norway. Whether you're showing symptoms or not. I don't see Sweden pushing for something akin to the hytteförbud in Norway, but I believe it was a sound decision, and I suppose it shows that they don't believe that spreading people out from the urban areas into the "periphery" will achieve anything.
Also: They're only low population density areas before people flock there.
Better worded: People moving into a low population density area gradually turns it into a higher population density area, with all that it entails, infection-wise.
I absolutely realise that there are conflicting opionions on this within Sweden, and I wouldn't argue fiercely against someone who disagrees. Many different opinions are valid. My personal take is that I look at what facilitates pandemics on a global scale and apply it to travel as a general concept, because there's no reason why the rules of infection would differ significantly when the scale shifts.
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You are correct and the person you quoted hasn't really thought it through. It is also the reason why a meeting of 30 people that normally don't meet is worse than a school class with the same people every day. Thus travel and events are toxic as hell.
I've reflected upon the fact that these fuckers going to their country houses are all white and upper middle class and up.
I'd wonder what the headlines and discourse would look like if these where people from the Middle East or Africa.
spoiler alert it be fucking different.
I think what really gets me is how many countries and its citizens act like we haven't already seen the devastating effects in other countries and the consequences of such an irresponsible, blasé attitude. We already know the importance of acting before healthcare systems--which are already stretched thin--are completely at their breaking points. And by the time they're at the same point, they will scramble and it will be too late.
Nothing swedes love more than a uteservering on a sunny spring day :/Malmö yesterday.
Everyone thinks they're special until they get a reality check.
Malmö yesterday.
Sometimes I think that even if Swedes were threatened with indiscriminate sniper fire if they went outside during the first sunny days of spring, it still wouldn't be enough to keep them indoors.This morning.
There is an argument in not doing more damage to the economy than necessary, and it's already getting hit very hard. Yes, saving lives is #1, but why should we implement restrictions that our epidemiology experts say wouldn't have much effect? Are you such an expert? If not, why do you think you know this better than them? Because other countries are doing it? Well, they are to a large degree doing it out of political reasons (Denmark, I think, even openly admitted to this), to send a message that "WE ARE DOING STUFF", more than from any scientific argument. In Sweden we have a tradition of listening to our experts, and that includes our politicians. If those experts eventually say that we should close the schools or ban all public gatherings, the politicians will listen and it will happen.