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I think few others can. If anyone. They'll just try to handle all that stuff after this is over.
... colds don't usually kill one out of 500 children?
I truly feel like I'm being gaslighted in this thread...
OP
OP
The government just injected 300 billion SEK into the private sector. I also bet you that tons of major Swedish companies have plenty of profits and value that could help as well.
Maybe it would be shorter, maybe it would be longer. The virus still would have to pass through the entire population and kill off a lot of elderly and at-risk groups. Obviously, any sensible person with an ounce of empathy would avoid this type of eugenics strategy. I'm very surprised that Sweden is going through with this, I thought it took care of all social groups like any other welfare society.
one important structural difference is the average household size. stockholm has among the highest percentage of people living alone in the world. whereas italy is the opposite with multi-generational households being very common. poor young people like students are more likely to live together, but old people are much less likely to live with young people than in italy. it is an important structural difference
Yeah Wednesday. Though apparently if your job is deemed important (like a doctor I guess) and your kid is in 1st - 3rd grade then they will find a way to have some schools open for such cases.
But it's odd that they haven't forced anyone really to close their business. I walked past several gyms today which were still open and some people were inside lifting weights. Pretty much all restaurants and bars were open and some packed.
Then you have some businesses like where my girlfriend works (an office job) which doesn't let their employees do remote work even though she 100% could.
I'm not sure what countries can "afford" it then, considering poor broke Sweden ranks 15/185 in GDP per capita ands 10/181 in GNI per capita...
That's true but it definitely doesn't feel like sweden's been doing nothing. It's far from life as normal even like I said in a city with zero (confirmed) cases. I think locking down stockholm completely would be great though.
OP
OP
Quarantining people doesn't make you alt-right. And scientists and experts and *entire countries* are telling Sweden that they're doing the wrong thing.
Household composition doesn't matter when there is no quarantine and when public spaces, institutions, and rooms are still open for everyone to mingle and infect one another. Especially schools.
if the strategy is to isolate risk groups, it is in fact an important factor
My personal opinion is that people guessing and becomg angy isn't actually helping anything. Please just follow and perhaps expand on whatever rules and recommendations that make sense for yourself and those close to you. Hopefully without spreading confusion or going to the stores and stocking up on toilet paper (still not understanding this one).
As I understand it is that flattening the curve is about buying yourself time. And when it comes to a full country lockdown, you only really get one shot.
Because if you don't time the lockdown well, you will overpower the healthcare system once the country can't handle anymore and people have to come out (and the virus is still very much there).
Because if you don't time the lockdown well, you will overpower the healthcare system once the country can't handle anymore and people have to come out (and the virus is still very much there).
Please explain how Swedens response is not following the scientific consensus. And "a single epidemiologist" makes me think that you don't understand how this works...
"You can't have a pandemic if everyone is dead."
Now that's a bold take.
Because the Swedish government is apparently stupid.
I can't.
I can't.
fuck, my sister lives in Sweden and she suffer from asthma... In these days I was so worried about Italy that I didn't thought about how other countries were handling the pandemy especially the one where one of my relative lives.
If before i was worried, now I'm officialy in panic.
If before i was worried, now I'm officialy in panic.
By not implementing a hard lock down like what's going on in other countries (including mine).
How "what" works? Stop implying and say what you want to say.
Agnes Wold, professor of clinical bacteriology and famous science communicator in Sweden, did a bit on this on P3 today. I guess she is just plainly wrong and you are right? Household and how people move in a society is important for spreading the disease and controlling the risk groups.
a more fair summary of the idea is:
"the pandemic won't last for as long if a sufficient percentage of the young healthy population attains immunity. if infection rates among risk groups can be minimized, the load on the healthcare system and death count can be mitigated"
You make it sound like the decisions in Sweden are being made by one expert. Which is simply laughable. But you know this and you knew what I meant. Being disingenious does not help your case.
By doing the opposite of what the rest of the world does on recommendation of the WHO.
The only country going for the same thing as Sweden is the UK and the model they used to justify this just got debunked by the ones behind the model.
What? Denmark's lock down is based around the rapid spread of the virus in Denmark.
While they are not what the chairman of sundhedsstyrelsen (who btw a mere month ago claimed this virus would never reach Europe) they are a government decision based around the rapid spread not only in Denmark, but especially in countries like Germany and Sweden who share borders with Denmark.
The second one is satirizing the first one, as in, this is what Italian people were saying one month ago.
Some decisions such as taking to long to restrict travel and not putting people that's been abroad in quarantine has been some possibly bad decisions. especially when it comes to the spreading. However i would say the current situation is sufficient.
As others has said we are the loneliest country in the world where most households contains one or two people. Especially elders are not part of a normal family And usually lives alone, or at a home. So something like a full quarentine would to my understanding be superfluous. Instead the focus should be to keep the risk groups in lockdown, and personally I'm all for getting the rest of the population immune.
The university I'm in will start distance education today, and if things went quicker than they are now I believe that that would make the situation worse than it currently am.
As others has said we are the loneliest country in the world where most households contains one or two people. Especially elders are not part of a normal family And usually lives alone, or at a home. So something like a full quarentine would to my understanding be superfluous. Instead the focus should be to keep the risk groups in lockdown, and personally I'm all for getting the rest of the population immune.
The university I'm in will start distance education today, and if things went quicker than they are now I believe that that would make the situation worse than it currently am.
That is rather specifically talking about closing the borders. Which is just one, and the most recent, element of the danish attempts to curb the spread.
As explained earlier and by several people living in Sweden a lot is being done. Will it be enough? I would guess not, seems like this virus is going to infect almost everyone sooner or later. Will it be enough to flatten the curve, perhaps. Swedish healtcare have fewer hospital beds per capita then most countries which could be a massive problem.
Are they doing the "opposite". Well it depends on what you mean, and please adjust it to all the countries specific variables. Sure seems like a lot of the medical community, not everyone though as it should, is liking some of what Folkhälsomyndigheten is doing and disliking some. As they do with what the politicians are deciding. I personally have a scientific degree (Biology)and I haven't been too annoyed at anything they've done or said so far which usually is the case when politics and science clashes.
The number of scientists consulted by politicians before taking any important decision is almost always zero. I have little reason to doubt that this decision (one that, again, goes straight against everything the WHO and other experts have recommended), was made after consulting exactly one expert with incentives to tell them what they want to hear.
Yes, it is laughable. Politics very rarely are not. That's the entire point.
School closing people:
So doctors and nurses will be able to work because of magical daycare centers. Great.
Transport staff?
IT support?
Police officers?
Elder care workers?
Shop staff?
Bus drivers?
Like I don't agree with how my government has handled this, but I think it's a better take than "PANIC! TP PAPER FOR TEN MONTHS MINIMUM!" Because, people have families. And you remove daycare, well grats.
So doctors and nurses will be able to work because of magical daycare centers. Great.
Transport staff?
IT support?
Police officers?
Elder care workers?
Shop staff?
Bus drivers?
Like I don't agree with how my government has handled this, but I think it's a better take than "PANIC! TP PAPER FOR TEN MONTHS MINIMUM!" Because, people have families. And you remove daycare, well grats.
That, again, is the exact same argument UK leaders have made that have gotten everyone else in the world doing a double take: "everyone's going to be infected, why even bother?". The very definition of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
In Denmark there is emergency services set up for that. Info in danish here.
Not gonna pretend to be an expert on the subject. Sadly we won't know what the smarter choice was before the end of this whole shitty ordeal.
If you truly believe politicians are in the habit of consulting with multiple scientists and following their advice before making any decisions, and that to think otherwise is not simple direct observation of politicians' actions but "conspiracy fantasies", I guess we don't have any common ground for further discussion.
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OP
sorry I don't find this funny at all. Not quaranting and not locking down will mean that the thousands of people will die.
Ever heard about emergency daycare/schools? That's what all other countries are doing for critical personnel.
Is no one in Sweden looking outside their own border?
As demonstrated in this case the politicans are following experts (who don't all agree, example below) and consulting them before making their decisions. Case in point would be that both Stefan Löfven (Prime Minister) and Anna Ekström (Minister of Education) always make sure to mention Folkhälsomyndigheten to give weight in their speeches. As in when Anna Ekström said that schools would stay open https://www.regeringen.se/sveriges-regering/utbildningsdepartementet/anna-ekstrom/
For example, two swedish epidemiologists disagreeing, https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/epidemiolog-vi-ligger-tva-till-fyra-veckor-efter-italien .
Well you're not alone anymore Sweden (and the UK), the Dutch have decided to join you! Let's stare into that abyss a bit and see what looks back!
Regarding the science informing policy discussion, check if they're being paid by the government. You don't become a high ranked member of any government organisation without being political. That's not a tin foil hat thing, it's just reality.
Regarding the science informing policy discussion, check if they're being paid by the government. You don't become a high ranked member of any government organisation without being political. That's not a tin foil hat thing, it's just reality.
Yes, from first-hand experience I can tell that this has been taken into consideration. The day they locked the schools in Denmark, we received a letter explaining that if we cannot take care of our son for work-related reasons we have to inform them, because they will be organizing some kind of emergency daycare. I am not sure how well it works though because we did not need it.
I wasn't the one bringing it up but I assumed that since it was linked earlier in the thread as "political, not based on any scientific reason " this is what the poster was referring to, so I responded with that to a direct question about the topic.
Guess I am reading the topic differently. There is nothing in OP about borders, so haven't really seen that as part of the discussion.
Consider an ignore. They've been downplaying the concern across multiple threads, referred to mandated lockdown measures as hysteria and perpetually seem to enjoy expressing a 'too cool to care' attitude around these threads. That's alongside pushing for the UK policy in the UK thread 'because Sweden' despite ignoring all the major differences between the two, while speaking to those differences between the Italy and Sweden here.
They will wake up soon enough. Finnish government planned on doing fuckall before today and basically follow the Swedish example before the reality came crashing in.
