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Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,620
It's all based on the stem cells used during research aspect right?

From an abortions done decades years ago whose cells are cloned and aren't used in the final product?

A process used in almost every major drug development in recent history that these fools absolutely still use but conveniently don't bother to think about?

It's all horseshit, but these hypocrites do regular mental gymnastics to convince themselves they are always right that another flip or two doesn't hurt them
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
18,127
It does matter. If there is not evidence that you belonged to the religion until you joined/created it to not get the COVID vaccine, that is not seen as valid.

Not necessarily. Even according to EEOC guidance, having a new belief doesn't make it not "sincerely held".

The university my son attends has a vaccine requirement. They state that if you have ever had ANY vaccine, you may not ask for a religious exemption for this one particular vaccine. Basically calling bullshit on these people.

This, according to the EEOC, doesn't prevent people from having a "sincerely held" belief that their religious belief means they can't get the Covid vaccine. In fact, beliefs are usually automatically assumed to be genuine.


However, none of these factors is dispositive. For example, although prior inconsistent conduct is relevant to the question of sincerity, an individual's beliefs – or degree of adherence – may change over time, and therefore an employee's newly adopted or inconsistently observed religious practice may nevertheless be sincerely held.

This is why employers hate to fight this stuff. People are given a ton of leeway and it can lead to long legal battles.

It goes back to a sincerely held belief. No major US religious institution is opposed to vaccination. Unfortunately an individual's "sincerely held" religious belief does not have to be part of a religious mandate to be considered a valid reason for exemption from getting the vaccine.

One can only hope that the courts limit it further based on the inevitable lawsuits that will happen in the coming months.

This.
 

The Lord of Cereal

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Jan 9, 2020
9,670
It really just depends where you live/work if a company will accept those BS "religious" exemptions, but it is what it is honestly.

Apparently the hospital my mom has been working at has been accepting those religious exemptions and that's really not surprising both because we live in an extremely conservative part of California and because it's a hospital and there's already a nursing shortage...
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,896
Because something about religious liberty and blah blah blah.

I've never heard of anything in the Bible saying "thou shall not vaccinate"

I think it goes deeper than that, these kind of Christians would rather people take direction from religion not science.

Hence the anti-science movement.
 

DrScruffleton

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,554
yeah they are so fucking dumb. This one restaurant near me that refused to shut down once during the whole last year and this year has been handing them out with meals because the owner happens to be a pastor. Its so fucking stupid.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
just a note about the selected bible verses. Aren't they a bit at odds? The first states that you should not murder and the second implies that life (or days) has not yet begun for an unformed body.
As a lapsed church goer, I can confirm that these people have absolutely no idea about either the context or the content of their holy book, other than the most superficial Sunday school stories
 

RBH

Official ERA expert on Third Party Football
Member
Nov 2, 2017
32,947
The university my son attends has a vaccine requirement. They state that if you have ever had ANY vaccine, you may not ask for a religious exemption for this one particular vaccine. Basically calling bullshit on these people.
That's fantastic
 

HiLife

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
39,686
I never understood why people separate Christian and Catholics, when both of them worship Christ. They're both under the same umbrella (the Christian umbrella)
 

pillowtalk

Member
Oct 10, 2018
2,562
There's basically no end to any claims of religious exemptions for anything if they keep taking it further. If they push hard enough in some red states they can influence and change laws with it. It's insane.
 

mute

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,110
Still tons of religious people making/enforcing the rules.
 

Belfast

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,886
I see this girl on my Instagram feed and TikTok giving out templates to thousands of people a day, a lawyer written and approved Religious Exemption letter. It's basically quoting a bunch of scriptures as to why she doesn't have to get the vaccine.

here is an excerpt



Isn't this dangerous? Like these people could die from not getting vaccinated and isn't this just …..idk being counter productive to what society wants to do (survive covid)

the thing is you know people that aren't even religious are using letters like this to get out of vaccines at jobs and government agencies.

how is this allowed?

Giving others a potentially fatal virus seems a lot like murder, too. Attempted, at least.
 
OP
OP
TheGhost

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
I never understood why people separate Christian and Catholics, when both of them worship Christ. They're both under the same umbrella (the Christian umbrella)
Yeah but IMO, as a catholic I don't hang around Christians. They seem more extreme imo. Like very very pushy, constantly trying to convert you to their way of thinking, not respecting what you're no matter how politely you tell them no thank you.
So I see differences in aggressiveness but obviously that's just anecdotal
 

kirby_fox

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,733
Midwest USA
We should just start a religion that requires our job to only allow us around people who are vaccinated. I only believe in interacting with people who take science as a whole seriously and not the parts they like.
 

HiLife

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
39,686
Yeah but IMO, as a catholic I don't hang around Christians. They seem more extreme imo. Like very very pushy, constantly trying to convert you to their way of thinking, not respecting what you're no matter how politely you tell them no thank you.
So I see differences in aggressiveness but obviously that's just anecdotal

What I'm saying is that Catholics, Protestants and even Orthodox are all considered Christians. So Catholicism is under that 'Christ-like' umbrella. Are you saying you don't hang out with other Catholics? Because Catholics are Christians, but not every Christian is a Catholic. That's where denominations come into play.
 

Ambitious

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,343
Religious exemptions shouldn't be a thing at all. What's the point of having rules, laws and regulations if anyone can just say "Well duh, I don't believe in this sort of thing".
 

Deleted member 69501

User requested account closure
Banned
May 16, 2020
1,368
In British Columbia there's No religious exemption. I suspect that it will be challanged in the courts but it'll be extremely hard case to win.


But the states that is obviously a different story
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,048
I actually agree with the idea of conscientious objection and religious exemption, and religious exemption does not need to be some organized religion, but it doesn't apply to vaccines in a public health crisis.

Religious exemption is also not some blanket protection. It's enshrined in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, it's a good law, it's a good thing to have, but employers only need to reasonably accommodate employees. There is always debate around what a reasonable accommodation is, but in a global deadly pandemic that has killed ~600,000 Americans and made millions sick, protecting your other employees, protecting customers, and protecting your business from the personal medical decisions of a minority of your employees -- thus mandating vaccines as an employment requirement -- is a reasonable accommodation. For states that have "undue hardship" requirements (like Massachusetts), the health and well being of your employees is an "undue hardship."

I think the Biden Administration is using the OSHA oversight creatively, but it's the right way to go about it. They're essentially protecting employers from being sued by using OSHA to protect them, and most employers are happy to implement the mandate because they can say that they're complying with federal employment guidance.

I see this girl on my Instagram feed and TikTok giving out templates to thousands of people a day, a lawyer written and approved Religious Exemption letter. It's basically quoting a bunch of scriptures as to why she doesn't have to get the vaccine.

here is an excerpt



Isn't this dangerous? Like these people could die from not getting vaccinated and isn't this just …..idk being counter productive to what society wants to do (survive covid)

the thing is you know people that aren't even religious are using letters like this to get out of vaccines at jobs and government agencies.

how is this allowed?

The fetal stem cell thing isn't even true of Pfizer and Moderna.

www.uab.edu

Debunking the myths about the COVID-19 vaccine

There is a lot of misinformation about the COVID-19 vaccine, but health care experts at UAB provide the facts behind some of the most common myths.

Myth: The COVID-19 vaccines were developed using fetal tissue.

Neither the Pfizer nor the Moderna vaccine uses cell lines that originated in fetal tissue taken from the body of an aborted baby at any stage of design, development or production.

Fetal stem cell lines were used for J&J, as they have been for like dozens of vaccines since the 1930s. Many childhood vaccines that we've all taken were developed using cells from fetal tissue back before abortion was even routinely performed. The treatment that Donald Trump received, Regeneron, uses human stem cells from donated organs from the 1970s.
 
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Deleted member 69501

User requested account closure
Banned
May 16, 2020
1,368
Religious exemptions shouldn't be a thing at all. What's the point of having rules, laws and regulations if anyone can just say "Well duh, I don't believe in this sort of thing".
Respectfully disagree. Religious exemption or consiencious objection have its place.... Just not under the current circumstances
 
OP
OP
TheGhost

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
What I'm saying is that Catholics, Protestants and even Orthodox are all considered Christians. So Catholicism is under that 'Christ-like' umbrella. Are you saying you don't hang out with other Catholics? Because Catholics are Christians, but not every Christian is a Catholic. That's where denominations come into play.
I mean I get it, But whenever people talk about Republicans and Christians, I don't associate that with Catholics. I associate with it with the Christians, born again Christians that are like the ones more often than not doing the type of stuff I posted about at the beginning of this topic.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
The university my son attends has a vaccine requirement. They state that if you have ever had ANY vaccine, you may not ask for a religious exemption for this one particular vaccine. Basically calling bullshit on these people.
This needs to be done everywhere, because most uni kids most definitely have had vaccines before
 

HiLife

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
39,686
I mean I get it, But whenever people talk about Republicans and Christians, I don't associate that with Catholics. I associate with it with the Christians, born again Christians that are like the ones more often than not doing the type of stuff I posted about at the beginning of this topic.

I guess I'm unaware. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding. Are Catholics known to not be Republicans or something? No slight against you, but I associate conservatives and republicans with Christianity in general. A red state? Probably ran by Christians in politics. From whatever specific Christian denomination. Look at Mormons in Utah.

Idk. To me it just sounds like a whole us vs them mentality, when everybody else is probably thinking, "you know you all are considered Christians, right?"

To each their own I guess. Lol.
 

ascagnel

Member
Mar 29, 2018
2,213

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,048
Religious exemptions shouldn't be a thing at all. What's the point of having rules, laws and regulations if anyone can just say "Well duh, I don't believe in this sort of thing".

I think conscientious objection to something morally objectionable, like say objecting to a participating in a genocide or war, is a good thing in a liberal democracy.

I don't think that conscientious objection applies to personal medical decisions that risk the public health, and the Supreme Court has historically agreed. The constitution does not enshrine harming others as an individual right.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,048
Not sure how true this is, but my fiancé sent me a Tweet to counter religious exemption:



Y'know... I had tried to do some research to validate that list. It's something that I had heard in passing, and I went to post about it in another thread and tried to validate it before posting but couldn't find anything that confirmed it at least in regard to really common drugs like ibuprofen, tylenol, and so on. I found some confirmation on vaccines, arthritis drugs, and other treatments for rarer conditions like altzheimers, but couldn't for the common list of drugs in that example.

There are some articles that turn up but none line up with that list.

medicalxpress.com

How fetal cells from the 1970s power medical innovation today

It is no secret that thousands of laboratories around the world use cells derived from a fetus that was aborted decades ago to develop vital medicines.

Also you basically have to filter by date, 1999 to 2019, because any articles posted after Nov 2020 out perform old pre-pandemic research articles and aren't really relevant.
 

Spock

Member
Oct 27, 2017
769
It does matter. If there is not evidence that you belonged to the religion until you joined/created it to not get the COVID vaccine, that is not seen as valid.

How does this work if your talking about earth based religions without a formal church?

Example, someone practices shamanism or a pagan based belief system as they understand it.

It is sincere.

They believe just as they didn't choose the day of thier birth, they won't choose the day thier death.

Now here's where it gets even more complicated...

Let's say they accept some medicines and medical practices as valid and in alignment with thier faith but others not so much.

For example they wouldn't ask for standard medical treatment for cancer or covid, etc. Nor do they want the vaccine.

But they might the ibuprofen, etc.

They discern this through truth via spirit however you wish to understand that. Which makes-sense for some earth based practices.

How do you allow for this individuals rights to be respected?

I get the argument when people are using faith just to get out of the vaccine but where talking about people who are ok if they die from covid and don't plan on burdening a hospital if they get covid.

It's a strange situation, but a real one. I mentioned this person in another thread but it wasn't as relevant to the discussion.
 
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Deleted member 8752

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,122
Pretty sure that vaccines weren't around back when the Bible came out. And that they don't use stem cells (lol wtf)
 

Deleted member 70788

Jun 2, 2020
9,620
How does this work if your talking about earth based religions without a formal church?

Example, someone practices shamanism or a pagan based belief system as they understand it.

It is sincere.

They believe just as they didn't choose the day of thier birth, they won't choose the day they die.

Now here's where it gets even more complicated...

Let's say they accept some medicines and medical practices as valid and in alignment with thier faith but others not so much.

For example they wouldn't ask for standard medical treatment for cancer or covid, etc. Nor do they want the vaccine.

But they might the ibuprofen, etc.

They discern this through truth via spirit however you wish to understand that. Which makes-sense for some earth based practices.

How do you allow for this individuals rights to be respected?

I get the argument when people are using faith just to get out of the vaccine but where talking about people who are ok if they die from covid and don't plan on burdening a hospital if they get covid.

It's a strange situation, but a real one. I mentioned this person in another thread but it wasn't as relevant to the discussion.
It's not always entirely clear. However, as one person already stated something like taking every other vaccine, but then refusing this one, would likely invalidate their claim. Leadership and literature for the religion would have to support their claim in a clear way that proved it was a deeply held belief and their actions up to this point were consistent. Ultimately, the onus is mostly on the individual to prove it. So the fired individual would have to take up a court case, prove their deeply held beliefs, and win.
 

Spock

Member
Oct 27, 2017
769
It's not always entirely clear. However, as one person already stated something like taking every other vaccine, but then refusing this one, would likely invalidate their claim. Leadership and literature for the religion would have to support their claim in a clear way that proved it was a deeply held belief and their actions up to this point were consistent. Ultimately, the onus is mostly on the individual to prove it. So the fired individual would have to take up a court case, prove their deeply held beliefs, and win.

My mind first went to the previous vaccine thing but they would say those where given to them as children or whatever. Meaning they don't get flu shots and stuff now, etc.

But the bigger question is around the spirit of truth and their relationship with it. You see in some earth-based practices you have a living dialogue with nature and not every similar question is going to get the exact same answer.

So for example they may through what others would call prayer or revelation through spirit be told that one vaccine is okay while another is not.

This is done legitimately, not just to get around one thing or another.

In this particular scenario the dialogue with their deity or deities is not so disconnected from their lives as it is when most people think of God or whatever you want to call it.

In regards to some shamanistic like practices this is consistent with how the belief structure has always related to nature.

You can trace it back to natives choosing one plant over another for different ailments or in relation to only consuming certain things as they are in alignment with particular cycles of time, etc.

Again it's a weird situation. I do appreciate the discussion though.
 

zoku88

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,025
Non snarky answer? Because the Constitution states that no laws can be passed to prohibit the free exercise of religion in the same sentence that it grants us the freedom of speech, the freedom to assemble, and the freedom to petition the government. All of these freedoms have to have some amount of reasonable restrictions, but sorting out what those restrictions are is incredibly difficult.
I don't think the 1st Amendment is an issue here. For example, for schools and stuff, California did away with all non-medical exemptions for vaccines years ago. That's okay, because even if vaccines weren't allowed by some religions, the law itself has a clear rational basis in safety. In fact, I'm not sure if any gov't vaccine mandate has lost.

I think the problem is with individual state laws (and employment law, maybe, which seems to require employers to make reasonable accommodations.)
 

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
I used to be a moderately religious person. I was in the local Catholic Scouts and though I didn't actively go to the Church, I had to attend many sermons because of my Scouts activities. I think that there are good ideals to learn and some good moral lessons to take from most religions.

Often times the lessons that are preached are distorted to fit whatever agenda is convenient to the religious leader. At their best I believe religions can be places of healing and bonding for people, I'm thankful I was able to witness and appreciate some of those events.

Far too many times though, I've seen religion being used as a cudgel against its own ideals. Discriminating. Harassing. Assaulting. Disgusting.

Any person that uses religion to harm others is undeserving of any respect and blasphemous to the ideals they preach. I would use a worse word to describe them, but unlike those people, I'm trying to, at least in this post, follow the ideals that were written in the Bible.
 
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JetmanJay

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,506
I was initially super-duper skeptical about that post, but it looks like there may be a kernel of truth to it (or at least a more elaborate fake).

https://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/...al-health-system-says-you-must-really-mean-it

https://www.kark.com/news/health/co...nt-use-other-meds-tested-on-fetal-cell-lines/

Y'know... I had tried to do some research to validate that list. It's something that I had heard in passing, and I went to post about it in another thread and tried to validate it before posting but couldn't find anything that confirmed it at least in regard to really common drugs like ibuprofen, tylenol, and so on. I found some confirmation on vaccines, arthritis drugs, and other treatments for rarer conditions like altzheimers, but couldn't for the common list of drugs in that example.

There are some articles that turn up but none line up with that list.

medicalxpress.com

How fetal cells from the 1970s power medical innovation today

It is no secret that thousands of laboratories around the world use cells derived from a fetus that was aborted decades ago to develop vital medicines.

Also you basically have to filter by date, 1999 to 2019, because any articles posted after Nov 2020 out perform old pre-pandemic research articles and aren't really relevant.

Good info either way.

And, I mean, I'm assuming the research and initial production of these drugs/medication is probably proprietary information that wouldn't be revealed to the public. Especially if there is a chance the religious extreme could start a campaign against it.
Its pretty much common knowledge that a strong majority of consumers don't know what the exact origins are of what they consume. So I mean, it'd be a hard thing to argue against, even if one couldn't exactly prove it.
Without proof I hate doing it, but I'm adding it to my wheelhouse in arguments I get into with conservatives. If they can use disinformation and straight lies, then I'll allow myself to use obvious inevitabilities like that Tweet implies in my arguments.
 

AllFatherGray

Banned
Nov 3, 2020
202
How does this work if your talking about earth based religions without a formal church?

Example, someone practices shamanism or a pagan based belief system as they understand it.

It is sincere.

They believe just as they didn't choose the day of thier birth, they won't choose the day thier death.

Now here's where it gets even more complicated...

Let's say they accept some medicines and medical practices as valid and in alignment with thier faith but others not so much.

For example they wouldn't ask for standard medical treatment for cancer or covid, etc. Nor do they want the vaccine.

But they might the ibuprofen, etc.

They discern this through truth via spirit however you wish to understand that. Which makes-sense for some earth based practices.

How do you allow for this individuals rights to be respected?

I get the argument when people are using faith just to get out of the vaccine but where talking about people who are ok if they die from covid and don't plan on burdening a hospital if they get covid.

It's a strange situation, but a real one. I mentioned this person in another thread but it wasn't as relevant to the discussion.
Even if they don't go to the hospital, wouldn't they still be at higher risk of spreading the virus? I could be mistaken.
 

Deleted member 1698

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,254
It is a conservative tactic. If people try this sort of exemption (even if their religion doesn't have a problem with it), then it promotes culture wars.

Every business/organisation then has to make a choice to call it out as BS or just wave that person through. If you call it out? You are at risk of a "religious freedoms" attack, fox news getting into you, senators setting up bounties against you, etc, etc.

So these thinktanks will try their best to stoke division as people die. It is evil as fuck.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,220
Singapore
Yeah but IMO, as a catholic I don't hang around Christians. They seem more extreme imo. Like very very pushy, constantly trying to convert you to their way of thinking, not respecting what you're no matter how politely you tell them no thank you.
So I see differences in aggressiveness but obviously that's just anecdotal
As a Catholic I'll say that this is a problem. A lack of dialogue with others around us just because we find them too pushy or not to our liking, just leads to more isolation and bubble mentalities for each micro-community and demographic. I'll argue this is actually largely the cultural problem with America itself too. If we are well versed in our faith and confident in explaining contradictions in using Scripture wrongly to justify nonsense, being able to talk about it rationally and lovingly to others is important. Not everyone will listen, some will have their hearts closed, but even then, we don't know what impact our words might have on them deep inside. Some who are more open to considering the truth might well have a change of opinion too.

But if one only preaches to those who already agree and sees society as many groups of 'us' and 'them', the problems faced will continue to grow and divide people further and further.
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
18,127
Yeah but IMO, as a catholic I don't hang around Christians. They seem more extreme imo. Like very very pushy, constantly trying to convert you to their way of thinking, not respecting what you're no matter how politely you tell them no thank you.
So I see differences in aggressiveness but obviously that's just anecdotal

As someone who grew up around a lot of Catholics, Catholics can be just as pushy as Protestants.

I never understood why people separate Christian and Catholics, when both of them worship Christ. They're both under the same umbrella (the Christian umbrella)

I've noticed this more often recently. People mean Protestants when they say Christians in this context.
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,635
I've noticed this more often recently. People mean Protestants when they say Christians in this context.

Oh is that what that means? I've gotten so confused by friends who toss that out there. It's like responding to the question 'name two kinds of animals' by saying 'cats and mammals.'
 

Dis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,955
The idea that you can use religion as an excuse to get out of doing basic steps to combat a public health emergency is absolutely fucking ridiculous, but I also think the fact that America has whole areas where it's accepted for parents to decide if their child also has to follow basic covid safety steps to protect their communities while at school.

It's been said before and should be said again, you can have your freedom to follow whatever faith you want, but your freedom ends the moment you are putting others at risk of serious illness or death.

It's also ridiculous to me because if there was a religion with a "seriously held belief" that taxes are immoral and go against their religion, there's basically 0 chance that normal everyday people who follow that religion would be allowed by the government to ignore paying taxes, but somehow when it comes to actual public health it's accepted in the usa.
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,550
It would probably make as much sense as refusing it on the basis that it was developed with animal testing. Like, the HEK cell lines are so common in research that I doubt any medicines on the market haven't involved the use of something equivalent along the way.

Oh is that what that means? I've gotten so confused by friends who toss that out there. It's like responding to the question 'name two kinds of animals' by saying 'cats and mammals.'
I've definitely met several American Protestants (usually Evangelicals, I think) that treat Catholicism as if it were a completely separate and distinct religion from "Christianity". It's very strange.
 

AlteredBeast

Don't Watch the Tape!
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,768
I seriously doubt the vast majority of the requests for this exemption are approved.
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,215
Dark Space
I mean I get it, But whenever people talk about Republicans and Christians, I don't associate that with Catholics. I associate with it with the Christians, born again Christians that are like the ones more often than not doing the type of stuff I posted about at the beginning of this topic.
This is just you being out of touch with reality. It's all under the umbrella of "things white people do within Christianity". Ask a lot of those Republicans their actual religious background, especially the Midwest and East coasters, and they will proudly identify themselves as Catholic.

This unsullied, holier-than-thou view you have of Catholicism is quite peculiar, given the times.