Why is Microsoft and Sony not supporting more than 4 controllers on xinput on PC & PS4/PS5?

Arthands · Jan 8, 2021

The recent update of Steam Client Beta supporting more than 4 Xbox controllers got me wondering why is Microsoft not updating xinput to support modern controller features and more than 4 controllers support, and Sony not allowing more than 4 controllers support for PS4 and PS5.

If I am not wrong, you can still use 8 controllers with DirectInput, but that's a deprecated API so I have no idea why Microsoft isn't improving XInput to make people switch over.

Update: missed this but the Wireless Adapter support 8 controllers.

VoltySquirrel said:
The Xbox Wireless Adapter supports 8 controllers at once.

for Sony, I understand local multiplayer is not a thing they focus on, but I don't understand the reason to not make it a thing anyway for 3rd party devs (and I can't imagine it being a very difficult feature to add). Weaker hardwares like Nintendo Switch and PS3 support more than 4 controllers.

*not counting smartphones as extra controllers or hotseat here

To add on the bits for Steam:

We can't do this because windows.gaming.input doesn't work in the background. We've spoken to the Microsoft input team about this both over email and in person, but to no avail.

We can support up to 16 Xbox controllers over directinput but that doesn't allow us to rumble or use the triggers at the same time so this isn't enabled in Steam. If you're interested in technical details there is a thread on the SDL2 forums where Slouken talks about this in more detail. I know that someone had worked on a pull request where they would switch input apis based on the number of controllers attached but last time I checked it was not yet stable enough to merge.

We do support up to 16 of every controller other than Xbox on Windows and if you switch to Linux we are able to support the full 16 Xbox controllers.

VoltySquirrel · Jan 8, 2021

The Xbox Wireless Adapter supports 8 controllers at once.

Faenix1 · Jan 8, 2021

Didnt ps3 allow 7 DEVICES? Which includes mics and that?

I'm not sure why youd want more than 2, let alone 4, controllers on a tv. (Borderlands was the last time I split screened and it was a nightmare)

RestEerie · Jan 8, 2021

fringe use case i reckoned.

Sprat · Jan 8, 2021

The ps5 supports more but some are reserved for vr headset, camera, move controller/aim controller etc.

I think it's a limit on the Bluetooth chip more than a restriction actively put in place just because

rntongo · Jan 8, 2021

Interesting, had no idea. They should definitely add support tbh.

Barbarossa · Jan 8, 2021

How many controllers does that DS4 bluetooth thing support? I bought it for the low price of like $29.99 with a DS4 and charging thing back in 2016, but you can have the OFFICIAL USB stick for the low, very low, best of all low prices many people are saying price of $59.99.

I'm actually kidding, but holy shit is that adapter going for way more than I paid with a controller years ago.

Edit: Ah, just 4. That knocks it down to $49.99

Polk · Jan 8, 2021

Sprat said:
The ps5 supports more but some are reserved for vr headset, camera, move controller/aim controller etc.

I think it's a limit on the Bluetooth chip more than a restriction actively put in place just because

Official BT specs limit connections to 7 devices to one host.

Raspyberry · Jan 8, 2021

VoltySquirrel said:
The Xbox Wireless Adapter supports 8 controllers at once.

yup! came to say this. Get the xbox wireless adapter.

Sprat · Jan 8, 2021

Polk said:
Official BT specs limit connections to 7 devices to one host.

Which is 4 ds4, 2 move & 1 aim controller

Which you can have all connected at once.

Xeonidus · Jan 8, 2021

Probably doing their part to combat covid and social gatherings /s

I don't think many will need more than 4 but it's something they should definitely do of they can. More options are nice.

Cipherr · Jan 8, 2021

Faenix1 said:
I'm not sure why youd want more than 2, let alone 4, controllers on a tv. (Borderlands was the last time I split screened and it was a nightmare)

Cmon really? If we were split screening on those 30" tube TV's with crappy resolution, then it would be at least tolerable these days when everyone has a TV the size of an entire living room wall at 4k and whatnot.

The Spoony Hou · Jan 8, 2021

Faenix1 said:
Didnt ps3 allow 7 DEVICES? Which includes mics and that?

I'm not sure why youd want more than 2, let alone 4, controllers on a tv. (Borderlands was the last time I split screened and it was a nightmare)

Evolution of Metal · Jan 8, 2021

Cipherr said:
Cmon really? If we were split screening on those 30" tube TV's with crappy resolution, then it would be at least tolerable these days when everyone has a TV the size of an entire living room wall at 4k and whatnot.

So, again, explain why would you want more than 4 controllers?

And, more to the point, what kind of games actually support 5 local players? Which ones are you playing?

Jawmuncher · Jan 8, 2021

Didn't we just have a thread about how there are 8 player local games on XB1? Even if that's not exactly what OP is talking about, it's definitely there on the platform and as said the wireless dongle supports it. So I guess it's more they should open up the 8 player aspect to be native.

As for PS4/5, doesn't it support up to 8 as well?

Evolution of Metal said:
So, again, explain why would you want more than 4 controllers?

And, more to the point, what kind of games actually support 5 local players? Which ones are you playing?

r/xboxone - Local multiplayer games with 6-8 players

40 votes and 24 comments so far on Reddit

www.reddit.com

Cipherr · Jan 8, 2021

Evolution of Metal said:
So, again, explain why would you want more than 4 controllers?

And, more to the point, what kind of games actually support 5 local players? Which ones are you playing?

I was responding to the part of your posts that asks why more than 2 controllers. Here Ill quote you again since you attempted to try and narrow it to 5+ only:

Faenix1 said:
I'm not sure why youd want more than 2, let alone 4, controllers on a tv. (Borderlands was the last time I split screened and it was a nightmare)

And theres very good reason, the answer is kids, and local multiplayer like there always has been. And theres plenty of games that support more than 2 players. Go google them yourself I dont have to bring you a list.

But the reasoning is the same as its always been.

Jawmuncher said:
Didn't we just have a thread about how there are 8 player local games on XB1?

r/xboxone - Local multiplayer games with 6-8 players

40 votes and 24 comments so far on Reddit

www.reddit.com

Right... dudes out here acting like games with more than 2 player local are some 4 leaf clover tier of rare or something. They aren't. And last I checked people didn't stop having kids either. There's plenty of households with 2 or more kids in them.

Arthands · Jan 8, 2021

Faenix1 said:
Didnt ps3 allow 7 DEVICES? Which includes mics and that?

I'm not sure why youd want more than 2, let alone 4, controllers on a tv. (Borderlands was the last time I split screened and it was a nightmare)

shared screen multiplayers like Brawlhalla and Bomberman, Runbow etc

Here's a curated list on Steam for more

Steam Curator: More Than 4 Local Multiplayer

Why are we still limited to max 4 players in offline multiplayer games? We have powerful PCs, lots of controllers, big TVs and a comfy couch: here's a list of local multiplayer games for more than 4 friends!

store.steampowered.com

There are various 4 players game as well like Crash Team Racing, Castle Crashers, Overcooked etc. You can play with kids or friends

Raspyberry said:
yup! came to say this. Get the xbox wireless adapter.

I wasn't aware, but thanks for it. I will probably get it in the near future then

Cyanity · Jan 8, 2021

RestEerie said:
fringe use case i reckoned.

If you build it, they will come.

Naner · Jan 8, 2021

Faenix1 said:
Didnt ps3 allow 7 DEVICES? Which includes mics and that?

I'm not sure why youd want more than 2, let alone 4, controllers on a tv. (Borderlands was the last time I split screened and it was a nightmare)

RestEerie · Jan 8, 2021

Cyanity said:
If you build it, they will come.

*Laughs in Quibi*

Cyanity · Jan 8, 2021

Naner said:

8-player Smash is so cursed

Naner · Jan 8, 2021

Cyanity said:
8-player Smash is so cursed

Yes but it is beautiful that it exists.

Arthands · Jan 8, 2021

Jawmuncher said:
Didn't we just have a thread about how there are 8 player local games on XB1? Even if that's not exactly what OP is talking about, it's definitely there on the platform and as said the wireless dongle supports it. So I guess it's more they should open up the 8 player aspect to be native.

As for PS4/5, doesn't it support up to 8 as well?

r/xboxone - Local multiplayer games with 6-8 players

40 votes and 24 comments so far on Reddit

www.reddit.com

yah, Xbox One and I believe Series S|X support up to 8 players too, in addition to Switch. Not sure PC max limit, maybe 8 with wireless adapter/DirectInput etc.

PS4 and 5 only support up to 4, that's why Bomberman R on PS4 is local 4 players

Deleted member 20831 · Jan 8, 2021

So all wireless controllers pooling in at around 1ms on bluetooth and what happens then?!

Popstar · Jan 8, 2021

JershJopstin · Jan 8, 2021

Faenix1 said:
Didnt ps3 allow 7 DEVICES? Which includes mics and that?

I'm not sure why youd want more than 2, let alone 4, controllers on a tv. (Borderlands was the last time I split screened and it was a nightmare)

There are multiplayer games that aren't split-screen and require simultaneous control.

Kao The Kangaroo · Jan 8, 2021

Not sure if that's the reason, but for now we can't recall many games with local co-op which might be suitable for more than 4 players. Even with a split-screen, dividing the screen into more than 4 subscreens will probably result in really small views.

dgrdsv · Jan 8, 2021

Arthands said:
why is Microsoft not updating xinput to support modern controller features

This is the real question here, and I think that it's just "Microsoft and PC gaming" thing again. They just don't care.

Arthands · Jan 8, 2021

Tate Multimedia said:
Not sure if that's the reason, but for now we can't recall many games with local co-op which might be suitable for more than 4 players. Even with a split-screen, dividing the screen into more than 4 subscreens will probably result in really small views.

Even if that's the case, I don't see any harm allowing that anyway. Most of them are indie titles and utilize shared screen.

Here're some lists for Steam. Some includes shared keyboard/controllers or use phone as controllers, but even if you filter them out you can still find various titles with more than 4 controllers support.

(more than 8)

Steam Curator: More Than 4 Local Multiplayer

store.steampowered.com

(up to 8)

Steam Curator: More Than 4 Local Multiplayer

store.steampowered.com

Steam Curator: More Than 4 Local Multiplayer

store.steampowered.com

(up to 7)

Steam Curator: More Than 4 Local Multiplayer

store.steampowered.com

(up to 6)

Steam Curator: More Than 4 Local Multiplayer

store.steampowered.com

(up to 5)

Steam Curator: More Than 4 Local Multiplayer

store.steampowered.com

julia crawford · Jan 8, 2021

It's probably a technical problem that we'll never know about because they aren't open about these things.

Arthands · Jan 8, 2021

John Kowalski said:
It's probably a technical problem that we'll never know about because they aren't open about these things.

Whatever their technical problem is, they should consider improving it, because 8 controllers support is a standard now for other platforms (just like Microsoft should add in gyro in their controller)

Edward850 · Jan 8, 2021

Arthands said:
The recent update of Steam Client Beta supporting more than 4 Xbox controllers got me wondering why is Microsoft not updating xinput to support modern controller features and more than 4 controllers support

Not only does the current xbox wireless controller adapter currently support 8 controllers, the current xinput API has no (explicit) controller limit at all as there's no longer player number assignments and instead just an iterative list, and thus can support beyond 8 controllers (requiring them to be wired or networked).

Note this is the current API, this only applies to Windows 8 and 10 (and Xbox, though I don't think you are allowed to explicitly use more than 8 controllers there), not the old Vista/7 API.

ghostcrew · Jan 8, 2021

Faenix1 said:
Didnt ps3 allow 7 DEVICES? Which includes mics and that?

I'm not sure why youd want more than 2, let alone 4, controllers on a tv. (Borderlands was the last time I split screened and it was a nightmare)

I can think of two solid examples of when I have.

One, playing Johann Sebastian Joust on PS3 with seven Move controllers. I owned the game on PS4 too but that version was locked to four players (instead of seven) because the PS4 only supports four Bluetooth devices.

Two, more realistically for most people, playing WWE 2kWhatever Royal Rumble matches. PS4 versions were also locked to four players max. Which meant I always bought the game either on Steam or on Xbox (which, I think, supported six players?)

Two rare occasions when I had a ton of people together (and 100% not a concern in 2020/2021...) but they're my examples.

Arthands · Jan 8, 2021

Edward850 said:
Not only does the current xbox wireless controller adapter currently support 8 controllers, the current xinput API has no (explicit) controller limit at all as there's no longer player number assignments and instead just an iterative list, and thus can support beyond 8 controllers (requiring them to be wired or networked).

Note this is the current API, this only applies to Windows 8 and 10 (and Xbox, though I don't think you are allowed to explicitly use more than 8 controllers there), not the old Vista/7 API.

Is there a place where I can read more? this is the first time I read that current xinput API has no longer any controller limit and I want to find out more.

degauss · Jan 8, 2021

Wireless bandwidth. Those new controllers on both sides are polled pretty hard to keep the latency low. PS4 controller last generation was the same which is why it's wireless latency was so well regarded.

Stopdoor · Jan 8, 2021

Arthands said:
yah, Xbox One and I believe Series S|X support up to 8 players too, in addition to Switch. Not sure PC max limit, maybe 8 with wireless adapter/DirectInput etc.

PS4 and 5 only support up to 4, that's why Bomberman R on PS4 is local 4 players

PC should be be unlimited in theory, I've had 20+ controllers plugged in as a test. Bluetooth connections are a limit, but otherwise it seemed to work.

Arthands · Jan 8, 2021

Stopdoor said:
PC should be be unlimited in theory, I've had 20+ controllers plugged in as a test. Bluetooth connections are a limit, but otherwise it seemed to work.

What games support 20+ controllers in the first place?! lol

Stopdoor · Jan 8, 2021

Arthands said:
What games support 20+ controllers in the first place?! lol

I'm super into local multiplayer, I keep track of my collection's player numbers, there are a few on PC that go up to 16. I haven't tested it out but "Super Slime Arena" apparently supports infinite players. "Light Angles" is a game I developed actually, but it's a browser based game and only Firefox allows more than 4 controllers, and even then it caps Xbox controllers specifically to 4 unless you hack it.

Video Game Tracker

eh-hem.net

Light Angles

eh-hem.net

This pic was from me testing my game, I got up to 24 I think. Don't ask me what mess of configuration I had to do for all these types, lol, now I have more Xbox controllers to make it simpler.

If you're interested in high playercount games I'm also working on a new browser based game called Party 32, lol

http://twitter.com/party32x

Arthands · Jan 9, 2021

Stopdoor said:
I'm super into local multiplayer, I keep track of my collection's player numbers, there are a few on PC that go up to 16. I haven't tested it out but "Super Slime Arena" apparently supports infinite players. "Light Angles" is a game I developed actually, but it's a browser based game and only Firefox allows more than 4 controllers, and even then it caps Xbox controllers specifically to 4 unless you hack it.

Video Game Tracker

eh-hem.net

Light Angles

eh-hem.net

This pic was from me testing my game, I got up to 24 I think. Don't ask me what mess of configuration I had to do for all these types, lol, now I have more Xbox controllers to make it simpler.

If you're interested in high playercount games I'm also working on a new browser based game called Party 32, lol

http://twitter.com/party32x

Wow, 24 controllers? You're gonna need a big house and a projector to play with that amount of people. That's a lot of controllers I wish I have, lol.
Currently have the packed in Joy Con, 1 Steam Controller, 1 Dual Shock 4, 1 Dualsense and 1 8bitdo controller, and I intend to buy XBox controllers next.

Stopdoor · Jan 9, 2021

Arthands said:
Wow, 24 controllers? You're gonna need a big house and a projector to play with that amount of people. That's a lot of controllers I wish I have, lol.
Currently have the packed in Joy Con, 1 Steam Controller, 1 Dual Shock 4, 1 Dualsense and 1 8bitdo controller, and I intend to buy XBox controllers next.

I go out of my way to host gatherings 🤷 more controllers and party games seems like a better use of money than collecting a huge backlog of single player games to sit in cases on shelves/digital libraries unplayed 🤔 not that uh, I don't do a little bit of that.

I guess yeah, logistically a huge TV is necessary, but TVs at venues are only getting bigger and more common lol.

EvilBoris · Jan 9, 2021

RestEerie said:
fringe use case i reckoned.

This I would have thought, there will be 1000's of othe things deemed as more important for DirectX development

Why is Microsoft and Sony not supporting more than 4 controllers on xinput on PC & PS4/PS5?

One Winged Slayer

“Fuck them kids.”

Crisis Dino

Took the red AND the blue pills

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios

The Shrouded Ghost

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest