I think it's mainly because of the proximity to border countries and it's hard to get for us low income brown immigrants and we're attracted to what we can't get š
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Why is American citizenship so coveted? (actual question)
- Thread starter Samuel
- Start date
Trump has killed a lot of American prestige and allure. Now a lot of the same people idolize Canada. But it's still a pretty good place to live.
Unlike many smaller countries, the USA is very different depending on where you live. It's an absolutely massive place, and state laws vary significantly from state to state. Some states are more Europe-lite and attract a lot of international immigration (like Washington, California, New York, Massachusetts), some states have looser policies but a lot of economic opportunity (Florida, Georgia, Texas), while other states are poor, backwards and repressive (like Mississippi, Wyoming, Alabama, West Virginia).
Unfortunately we have to live in a country where these disparate perspectives have to interact with each other to pass legislation, which is why our federal government has always been such a clusterfuck. We would probably be better off split into separate countries, but c'est la vie.
In general, you can live a good existence in a Democratic state, or Democratic areas within Red states (like Austin Texas, Atlanta Georgia, etc.) There are jobs and opportunities that do allow you to get ahead in life, even if it's more difficult than expected, and there are laws that guarantee a baseline of wealth, like cities that mandate a $15 minimum wage and paid sick leave. Like I'm part of a union that treats me very well, with fantastic health insurance that costs me just a $100 copay for any hospital visit regardless of duration or procedures. I have a good friend and coworker from Pakistan who immigrated to America just so he can get this kind of job and make his life better for him and his wife. This is probably as close as you're going to get to the "American Dream."
Trump makes us seem like a banana republic when there's a lot more going on. Maybe now that Biden is in power and hopefully we can stave off future neo-fascists, the USA's reputation will begin to mend on the international stage. If we can finally pass progressive legislation like Medicare for All within the next decade, that will also help substantially. We are making some progress. For example, hospitals can no longer surprise patients with massive out-of-network bills starting in 2022. But there is still a long way to go.
That said, I'm still looking at Canada because we do have a lot of systemic issues to work through.
Unlike many smaller countries, the USA is very different depending on where you live. It's an absolutely massive place, and state laws vary significantly from state to state. Some states are more Europe-lite and attract a lot of international immigration (like Washington, California, New York, Massachusetts), some states have looser policies but a lot of economic opportunity (Florida, Georgia, Texas), while other states are poor, backwards and repressive (like Mississippi, Wyoming, Alabama, West Virginia).
Unfortunately we have to live in a country where these disparate perspectives have to interact with each other to pass legislation, which is why our federal government has always been such a clusterfuck. We would probably be better off split into separate countries, but c'est la vie.
In general, you can live a good existence in a Democratic state, or Democratic areas within Red states (like Austin Texas, Atlanta Georgia, etc.) There are jobs and opportunities that do allow you to get ahead in life, even if it's more difficult than expected, and there are laws that guarantee a baseline of wealth, like cities that mandate a $15 minimum wage and paid sick leave. Like I'm part of a union that treats me very well, with fantastic health insurance that costs me just a $100 copay for any hospital visit regardless of duration or procedures. I have a good friend and coworker from Pakistan who immigrated to America just so he can get this kind of job and make his life better for him and his wife. This is probably as close as you're going to get to the "American Dream."
Trump makes us seem like a banana republic when there's a lot more going on. Maybe now that Biden is in power and hopefully we can stave off future neo-fascists, the USA's reputation will begin to mend on the international stage. If we can finally pass progressive legislation like Medicare for All within the next decade, that will also help substantially. We are making some progress. For example, hospitals can no longer surprise patients with massive out-of-network bills starting in 2022. But there is still a long way to go.
That said, I'm still looking at Canada because we do have a lot of systemic issues to work through.
There are still some quite appealing aspects to the US honestly. Were it not for the guns, healthcare and distance, I'd probably consider it. Were I to I could totally understand celebrating getting to the point where you're considered a citizen. It's an official validation of being part of that wider group you have made a conscious choice to go and be a part of.
I wasn't trying to refute. It was poor phrasing by me. Canada is obviously a great example of immigrate potential like the US
In fact, with the world's largest undefended border, it's realistically impossible for the US & Canada to have immigration & citizenship policies that differ very much from each other.
GDP per capita is deceiving because Musk, Bezos and Company are pulling the average numbers way the fuck up.
Median income per capita figures are more enlightening:
The U.S is 6th in the world. Not bad, but not #1.
Now adjust for healthcare and education costs š°
I got the citizenship a couple of years back and Im keeping my Spanish one. The flexibility this affords me is extremely useful. I live in Spain now and knowing I can return with minimum fuss if need be gives md a lot of security
Everyone keeps posting about how terrible life is in all these other poor countries, but there are substantially, materially better rich nations than the US.
Like you can have everything America has plus free access to healthcare, a better education system, a more robust social safety net, significantly lower murder and gun violence rates, way cheaper access to college, and cleaner air if you go for Canada instead. So quality of life is obviously not the deciding factor.
Like you can have everything America has plus free access to healthcare, a better education system, a more robust social safety net, significantly lower murder and gun violence rates, way cheaper access to college, and cleaner air if you go for Canada instead. So quality of life is obviously not the deciding factor.
The following countries grant unconditional birthright citizenship:
- Antigua and Barbuda
- Argentina
- Barbados
- Belize
- Brazil
- Canada
- Chad
- Chile
- Cuba
- Dominica
- Ecuador
- El Salvador
- Fiji
- Grenada
- Guatemala
- Guyana
- Honduras
- Jamaica
- Lesotho
- Mexico
- Pakistan
- Panama
- Paraguay
- Peru
- Saint Kitts and Nevis
- Saint Lucia
- Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
- Uraguay
- USA
- Venezuela
Of the countries on that list 2 of them are wealthy "first world" countries: Canada and the U.S.A.
I live here and I'm getting citizenship because my husband is American. I think citizenship is extra important for security here. I'm happy to be here and love my family but I don't think it's an upgrade from my home country.
Sweden has an immigrant population of 2 million (20% of the population, compare to 13.5% for the US) with the biggest immigrant groups being Syrians and Iraqi.
To put that in perspective I think the US gets over a million immigrants each year.
This right here, listen to the immigrants and all the reasons why it makes sense coming here, especially from authoritarian regimes and 3rd world countries
instead of my guess mostly privileged people living in the west talking about how it's just marketing and propaganda.
Earning potential. I am an immigrant that came from a family that was at best the bottom 10% of US household income. In about 5.5 years I should be near or at top 1% of US household income. Couldn't really see myself doing it in any other country.
I think another issue is in Eurasia there are more options for immigrations into first world countries. In the Americas, there are just two. It's just not realistic for people in Central and South America to immigrate in large numbers to countries other than US and Canada.
many immigrants tend to go to locations where their dispora congregate, makes it easier to fit in when you have folks with similar backgrounds/cultures. So even if you don't have a strong grasp of the language, you can still get by.
I would rather have an EU passport prior to Brexit than my US citizenship. I think it all has to do with earning possibility; opportunity to raise a family in a somewhat "decent" country.
Absolute numbers are meaningless when comparing countries with as vastly different populations as US and Sweden. Obviously no country can take in yearly what amounts to 10% of their population. Yearly immigration rate seems to be about 0.1 million for Sweden which is significantly higher than the US one when adjusted to population.
The point is, that is in no way "fuck you, got mine in nation form" like the person I originally quoted said.
Most countries immigration process:
US's immigration process:
- A long list of technicalities, laws and red tape
Obviously there's a lot of red tape for the US too, but it's way more simplified due to the Constitution. Even illegal immigrants have a fairly good path to citizenship if they can last long enough to the inevitable Presidential amnesty.
Yup. If your born here, your a citizen. Isn't that why they used to have flights from
China I believe while pregnant, so they can come here to give birth to get citizenship.
yup it's called birth tourism.
Thanks for sharing
I think the answer really does boil down to the fact that despite all the bullshit, most people in this country's QOL is higher than the majority of the world.
But in US you don't get robust social safety nets, free or discounted healthcare and free or discounted tertiary education. Most of Western European countries have that for citizens and legal immigrants.
Europe also has a significantly larger influx of refugees.
Key findings about U.S. immigrants
Today, more than 40 million people living in the U.S. were born in another country, accounting for about one-fifth of the worldās migrants.
www.pewresearch.org
Asylum statistics - Statistics Explained
The latest statistics on asylum applicants and decisions on asylum applications in the EU are presented.
ec.europa.eu
So about 30k vs 230k accepted refugees with a 330m vs 500m population in US and EU respectively.
Both of these things make it harder for Western European countries to set up legal immigration schemes akin to those in US.
US healthcare can have its issue but if you're employed it isn't terrible. I've never had healthcare when unemployed but when my sister gave birth to my niece she had full coverage as well as my niece through medicaid.
I for example pay $113/week for full family coverage. I pay nothing when I see my primary physician, I pay $5 usually for prescriptions and only time cost is higher is if I go to specialist.
I called on Thursday to see the doctor so I can begin the process of getting my two hernias repaired. I for setup as a new patient and I was in there yesterday by 11:45am.
Would I prefer universal care? Of course, but not everything is the nightmare that some on ERA make it out to be.
Thats not terrible by US standards but here in Spain my government coverage is free AND my private work insurance is free also, only cost being 7 euros a month for my wifes coverage
Recently weve been to the neurologist and thyroid specialists, got MRI's made, blood tests, all sorts of shit. All covered, no cost.
I don't know about now but at some point the US was legitimately a good place to immigrate and start a new life with. That's what my family successfully did in 2006, and probably most of US Era's great grandparents. Becoming a citizen solidifies the life you've built here.
Quality of life is still much higher than most countries on earth. Also birth rite citizenship means your kids are guaranteed citizenship. Many countries don't do that
Is it "free" or is it provided due to paying it as a regular part of tax?
It really does vary on insurance provided by the employer which is what sucks. I've never had to pay for a MRI either and in 2017 when I had an emergency surgery to remove my appendix the bill was for $20k but my insurance covered the entire thing.
Last week I had blood work done too to test my thyroid as well because I've lost 30 lbs over the last 12 months without trying. It came out negative and next they have me going to a blood cancer specialist just to rule some other stuff out. I just walked in, got it done, left and a few days later my doctor called to tell me my results. Now my visits to the specialist isn't free like my primary. These visits are $50.
Only time I was ever hit hard was my wife's surgery a few months ago because it was elective.
I have Meritain Health coverage. That's the parent company I believe. My specific plan is Aetna.
I'm as anti-American as anyone else but anyone who answers "it's only Hollywood/propaganda" is missing the point. The US has tons of issues but (at least some point recently) you could immigrate here and eventually own a home and earn a decent living (or your kids can). Lots of people I know from my home country did that, many without a college education.
Maybe it says more about the state of the world, but this isn't a thing people can do in many other countries. Again, not sure how things look like after Trump.
Maybe it says more about the state of the world, but this isn't a thing people can do in many other countries. Again, not sure how things look like after Trump.
The last point is something people don't wanna admit. The US is far more diverse than any other place in the world.
also as a black dude, the USis somewhat good at not discriminating against you unless you are black. So you can likely have a good shot at succeeding if Your a non black immigrant
Ain't that the truth?! The amount of diversity in NYC is crazy and even here on Long Island this opens up the ability to eat all kinds of amazing foods.
We just found this amazing Indian place the other day with some amazing curry. Yummm!
Edit - Also found that I love Pho. This is of course a different establishment. Had it recommended to me and if anyone hasn't tried any, I suggest you do. Real good stuff.
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Of course it's covered by taxes and isn't free like growing on trees from sunshine, what an odd question.
I have great insurance in the US too. But, your insurance and my insurance costs are not typical for the average American.
That's what I figured. They said it's free though, and on two different occasions for two different situations, both government and their work, so I asked the question. Nothing odd about asking for clarification.
I can't tell if you seriously think "free" healthcare is literally free, like no cost at all to anyone.
Then again, your pho comment was pretty lulz, so maybe.
It's still very much possible to own a home if you were so inclined here without a degree and all that jazz. It just matters where you want to do it. People shit on Florida for example but such a large amount of my family moved there to buy homes they realistically couldn't get in conditions that made it worth it in New York.
Many of them barely speak English but the hustle is strong and the tenacity is strong so their kids are growing up very well. A life back in DR they were NOT going to be afforded.
No, I didn't think it was literally free.
Is there an issue here that I'm missing? Is there a problem with my pho comment? I have to think I'm reading you wrong.
I don't understand the defense of the US healthcare system in the thread because it's one person saying how good their insurance is. Ok? So is mine. Doesn't mean it's stupidly tied to employment and the quality or cost is at the whim of the employer. It's ridiculous.
Unfortunately no matter what answers we give you, you will never fully understand that question unless you are an immigrant apart from US. You will never know the other side of the fence.
This.
Everyone saying "they just don't know about the downsides like health insurance or worker rights" is missing the point. Most immigrants don't care about these because the condition in their own country is way worse - particularly with worker rights. They're pitiful in the Global South by design, so wealthy countries can take advantage. Simply being able to give your family stable and comfortable housing is a win.
For white collar immigrants, it's about chasing the money. The US tech industry has tons of Canadians. They'd rather deal with our backwards health insurance system because they earn almost twice as much here than in Canada.
Yeah I really doubt people are going to upend their entire life and move to a completely new land because of "Hollywood marketing".
The only marketing people probably trust in this situation is word of mouth, like in the case of my family.
When I had a chat to a friend who immigrated to the US, he said it was because he was sold the idea of healthcare being quick, available and cheap and schooling being the same. It came up after he made a joke about me needing surgery and the cost of it, and I was like "Uhhh, no it's free?". He's generally happy but, definitely a bit bitter about the lie he was sold
I've lived in one of the most homogeneous countries on the planet (S. Korea) and the most diverse city in the US (Houston), and this is one of two things I like more with the US than South Korea. The other is also diversity, just not with people:
You gotta get in tho.
comparing 2019 is bad cause of trump, if we go to 2016, its about 100k, so definitely EU is doing good work, but Trump is pos.
Gov issued one is taxed, but the work one (which is the one I use 99% of the hime) is free as part of my benefits.
Funny thing about taxes though is that sincd I havent worked in Spain for 5+ years I qualified for the Beckham's Law tax break which lowers yearly federal taxes by a great amount, like 800$ a month or so for me
very few Americans have insurance like that.
My health insurance tthough my employer is good, but it would cost me at least $500 a month just to put my wife on it. And I've paid a lot more to see doctors and to get prescriptions than $5.
If you need some major surgery done or a drug that isn't covered or just go through a difficult pregnancy, you can quickly be on the hook for thousands even with good health insurance.
I've lived in America all my life and I'm learning a lot too, thanks for making the thread!
- Birthright citizenship
- High wages for skilled professions
- English speaking
- Diversity
- Basic stuff like food, entertainment, clothing and electronics is cheap
- Ease of access to most products and services, especially if you live in a major city like NYC
The US has a ton of problems but if I had the option to do it all over again, I'd still want my parents to immigrate to the US. It's a massively diverse country in terms of people, cultures, cuisine and natural environments.
- High wages for skilled professions
- English speaking
- Diversity
- Basic stuff like food, entertainment, clothing and electronics is cheap
- Ease of access to most products and services, especially if you live in a major city like NYC
The US has a ton of problems but if I had the option to do it all over again, I'd still want my parents to immigrate to the US. It's a massively diverse country in terms of people, cultures, cuisine and natural environments.