Why is American citizenship so coveted? (actual question)

ChippyTurtle · Jan 23, 2021

Br3wnor said:
Immigrants can be very successful in America, they have family and friends who want to come as a result. We're also much more of a melting pot than most the rest of the world despite what places like ERA want to pretend

Not sure if anywhere else in the world I can declare myself a nationality while looking deeply unlike the majority of everyone there other than america.

Tho lots of it is marketing, and some of it unfulfilled, that notion that anyone can be american is very unique I believe.

DekuBleep said:
I think a lot of other say "1st world" countries that treat their citizens well are much more difficult to emigrate to... or much more difficult to attain status once you are there.

I think it's particularly hard for natives to recognize how difficult is it to actually emigrate.

The U.S even with all it's problem is I believe easier than any other 1st world country to emigrate to.

samoyed · Jan 23, 2021

Nesotenso said:
A fair number of educated invividuals, especially STEM, come in huge numbers as students because of American universities, because of quality of education and funding from the likes of NIH, NSF, DoD, AFRL etc.

I'm going to assume the immigrants coming here to advance their education in order to find success back home have different feelings about citizenship from people who plan to move here.

Not to suggest there are not a lot of immigrants on the education track but the OP specified why is citizenship coveted. Aside from ease of travel, I do not think citizenship means much to your average international student. They probably care more about their Green Card status or their H1B Visas. Which, for the topic at hand, I'm not going to treat as "citizenship".

molnizzle · Jan 23, 2021

gozu said:
GDP per capita is deceiving because Musk, Bezos and Company are pulling the average numbers way the fuck up.

Median income per capita figures are more enlightening:

The U.S is 6th in the world. Not bad, but not #1.

Good luck getting into any of the top 5 as an unskilled worker from an developing nation. The US is still the easiest target.

Armaros · Jan 23, 2021

folks that constantly wonder why immigrants would still want to come to the US.

have they actually looked up the immigration laws of countries that this forum constantly sing their praises for?

Glimlocker · Jan 23, 2021

JustJavi said:
I moved from Edinburgh to California in 2007. It took me a bit less than a year to move back to Scotland. You are better where you are, trust me.

On the other hand, I moved to Wellington, New Zealand, in 2012 and I now hold citizenship.

Check your facts, you are very wrong there.

Ugh, I always hate to hear when things don't work out at all over here.
What happened?! Whatever it was sounds like it was awful.

Yeah, I think NZ would provide a much better cultural fit for most Europeans, especially from the UK.

Also, I think US has the 2nd highest number of African immigrants, so not too far of there.

Deleted member 17210 · Jan 23, 2021

ChippyTurtle said:
Not sure if anywhere else in the world I can declare myself a nationality while looking deeply unlike the majority of everyone there other than america.

Canada exists.

samoyed · Jan 23, 2021

I forgot to mention the "first mover" advantage in my posts that other people have brought up. It works the same way as social media. What is your motivation for picking a social media platform? Sometimes it's the features of the platform, and sometimes its because you have friends there. America has the first mover advantage of being a global immigration center for the longest time. Immigration is a rough process and it helps to have friends and family or people of a similar cultural background as you, for support and for protection. We are, shortcomings aside, still nearly unmatched here due to our long history as an immigration center and an imperialist power.

GiantEnemyCrab · Jan 23, 2021

I think this is similar to when people always really care about the price of a game console but don't consider prices of the actual games they're going to buy - which matter more for the total costs in the long run (upfront costs vs. long term costs if you will).

In short, most people don't think very far ahead or don't realize the "hidden" costs.

bombermouse · Jan 23, 2021

Us media is a huge propaganda machine and despite the problems the quality of life is great compared to third world countries

MIMIC · Jan 23, 2021

Lunchbox- said:
we have the best version of English

This

Trigonometrize · Jan 23, 2021

If you're seeking a high-skilled job in the US, living here is incredibly advantageous. Lots of job opportunity across a lot of different parts of the country. High standard of living (even if we have some big problems with general infrastructure). Heavily subsidized health insurance for high-earners. Great medical care and access to medical technology. Low tax burden relative to other countries. Great education. Not to mention the general amenities like the diversity of cultures, foods, natural parks...

Depending on who you are, USA can be fucking awesome.

collige · Jan 23, 2021

grand said:
No one's wrong; this is a distinction of how you categorize the data. The post I quoted was questioning legal immigration of specifically black Africans,

The post you were replying to specified non-white Africans, not black Africans. Most north African Arabs would certainly qualify for that under any reasonable western definition of "white".

of which the majority have immigrated to the US over the last 30 years. The info you posted is of recent data for the migration of all of Africa (which includes Northern Africa & asylum seekers).

I don't believe there's any data whatsoever that differentiates between black and Arab African immigrants in no small part because race in general is made up bullshit that can't accurately be compared between countries anyway. France for example doesn't even collect data on race. If you have any source on this, I'd be interested to see it.

I posted migration data for all of Africa because you said "far far majority of African migrants".

In that context, France has taken the far majority of migrants.

This is wrong too, they have a plurality. There is no country that takes the "far majority".

Deleted member 83599 · Jan 23, 2021

I think birthright citizenship granted by the 14th amendment plays a huge role in this.

If you move to pretty much any other developed country, you're going to have a fairly challenging time obtaining citizenship for not just yourself, but for any children you might have while living there.

In the U.S., if you come here, have kids, and build a family, your kids are U.S. citizens. Period. Even before you're able to obtain citizenship for yourself, your kids are guaranteed to have it simply for being born here.

If you're an immigrant, that's a huge incentive to come here and build a family. It's why the 14th amendment is truly one of the best things about this country.

grand · Jan 23, 2021

NeoZeedeater said:
Canada exists.

Yes but in theory more than execution. Canada's immigration is primarily from China & South Asia.

subpar spatula · Jan 23, 2021

Strong dollar. Like, ya, they could immigrate to Canada (good luck, seems pretty hard), but the dollar is weak so you'll have to work harder and more jobs to make similar to what you can do in America. Like, why bust your back doing a labor job in Canada for minimum wage when you can do the same in America for more?

Like, even my friends are planning to head down South to America cause you just don't make any money up here and shit is expensive. 330k+ for an older 1 bedroom, 550sf apartment. 600k+ for a small 1200sf 3 bed, 2 bath new townhouse (just think how tiny those rooms are separated into 3 floors).

America just is an easier place to build up. The hard part is not injuring yourself and getting into medical debt.

Leo · Jan 23, 2021

You obviously have no idea of how worse things can be outside the US.

grand · Jan 23, 2021

collige said:
The post you were replying to specified non-white Africans, not black Africans. Most north African Arabs would certainly qualify for that under any reasonable western definition of "white".

I don't believe there's any data whatsoever that differentiates between black and Arab African immigrants in no small part because race in general is made up bullshit that can't accurately be compared between countries anyway. France for example doesn't even collect data on race. If you have any source on this, I'd be interested to see it.

It's still a statistical distinction. The US categorizes Northern African & Middle Eastern as "white".

bionic77 · Jan 23, 2021

Leo said:
You obviously have no idea of how worse things can be outside the US.

Or even in the US if they think this country is some hellhole that tricks immigrants into coming here.

MinerArcaniner · Jan 23, 2021

As bad as things have gotten here, lots of other countries have to deal with FAR worse.

It's pretty fucking annoying hearing people call America "a third world country with a Gucci belt" when my family comes from a real one. Which is why they came to the States in the first place.

Deleted member 30411 · Jan 23, 2021

nsilvias said:
making shit wage in america is still gonna give you a slighty higher quality of life than in some countries and with that much more flexibility and the resources here there kids could potentialy use them to do more than they could have in there native country

I don't often hear stories of other developed countries where people need to work several minimum or low wage jobs to get by and living in fear of being sick and potentially getting thrown into unfathomable medical debt and losing your job because paid sick leave isn't a right but a priviledge.

HammerOfThor · Jan 23, 2021

The US has a lot of issues but it's still leagues better then a lot of countries. Although I'd lump US, Canada, and most of western Europe into the same coveted carergory.

subpar spatula · Jan 23, 2021

Scramblethink said:
I don't often hear stories of other developed countries where people need to work several minimum or low wage jobs to get by and living in fear of being sick and potentially getting thrown into unfathomable medical debt and losing your job because paid sick leave isn't a right but a priviledge.

Outside of medical debt you could look at Canada for people working multiple jobs just to pay rent. At least in America, the money you make is actually worth a lot more than most places when converted.

ChippyTurtle · Jan 23, 2021

Scramblethink said:
I don't often hear stories of other developed countries where people need to work several minimum or low wage jobs to get by and living in fear of being sick and potentially getting thrown into unfathomable medical debt and losing your job because paid sick leave isn't a right but a priviledge.

its hard getting into the U.S, but most places where you get that kind of benefits the U.S dont offer also make it much harder for unskilled laborers to emigrate than the U.S.

bionic77 · Jan 23, 2021

Scramblethink said:
I don't often hear stories of other developed countries where people need to work several minimum or low wage jobs to get by and living in fear of being sick and potentially getting thrown into unfathomable medical debt and losing your job because paid sick leave isn't a right but a priviledge.

People from developed and richer countries are not the ones immigrating to America or other countries.

You are literally comparing one rich country to another. Most people in the world are not lucky enough to have been born in one.

You are not wrong in your complaints but the point is that people in the US still have it much better than most of the rest of the world.

Deleted member 17210 · Jan 23, 2021

grand said:
Yes but in theory more than execution. Canada's immigration is primarily from China & South Asia.

I don't see how that's relevant to the post I was replying to, though. Their post was saying you can be a racial minority and still be considered American. The same concept exists in Canada (and other places like Australia and New Zealand). It's not an idea unique to the US.

nsilvias · Jan 23, 2021

Scramblethink said:
I don't often hear stories of other developed countries where people need to work several minimum or low wage jobs to get by and living in fear of being sick and potentially getting thrown into unfathomable medical debt and losing your job because paid sick leave isn't a right but a priviledge.

Is it as easy to get into those countries as it is the US? People living in Venezuela or similar countries aren't thinking about all that, they are thinking of escaping the current hell they find themselves in at all costs even if it comes with negatives.

whatsinaname · Jan 23, 2021

bionic77 said:
There is some delusion in this thread and some attempts to paint America as some horrible country to live in.

I would not say that America is the best country in the world to live in for everybody and its foolish to say that there are no problems here but life is much easier in the United States than it is for the majority of people on Earth. To say otherwise is kind of crazy.

There is so much opportunity in America and that is enough for most people because in a lot of countries those opportunities just don't exist or if they exist they are much more difficult to achieve. Also I would hazard to say that immigrants in general are much more successful in America than they are in any other country.

I would agree with this overall.

tbh, if you are White, there are a lot of countries that are possibly worth immigrating to and the USA is middle of the pack.

If you are poc, I would personally still put the US in like the top 5 options. (I guess this might just be causation of how "selective" migration into the US is.)

Renna Hazel · Jan 23, 2021

There is a ton of opportunity in the US and you can make a lot of money if you put the work in. The required work is usually a lot less than other countries for much more money. Also we have a very high standard of living.

grand · Jan 23, 2021

NeoZeedeater said:
I don't see how that's relevant to the post I was replying to, though. Their post was saying you can be a racial minority and still be considered American. The same concept exists in Canada (and other places like Australia and New Zealand). It's not an idea unique to the US.

Sorry, poor phrasing by me. I agree that Canada also provides citizenship and identify based on nationality rather than ethnicity. They just don't pull in large immigrant populations other than from China & South Asia, hence why Canada isn't regularly included alongside the US in these types of discussions.

Arilian · Jan 23, 2021

BertramCooper said:
If you move to pretty much any other developed country, you're going to have a fairly challenging time obtaining citizenship for not just yourself, but for any children you might have while living there.

In the U.S., if you come here, have kids, and build a family, your kids are U.S. citizens. Period. Even before you're able to obtain citizenship for yourself, your kids are guaranteed to have it simply for being born here.

Kids born in France, from foreign parents, are also able to become French citizens (it's an automatic translation):

French nationality of a child born in France to foreigners parents

Are you foreigner parents of a child born in France? If you live in France, your child can obtain French nationality. We tell you the conditions to fulfill and how to apply according to your child's age.

www.service-public.fr

bionic77 · Jan 23, 2021

whatsinaname said:
I would agree with this overall.

tbh, if you are White, there are a lot of countries that are possibly worth immigrating to and the USA is middle of the pack.

If you are poc, I would personally still put the US in like the top 5 options. (I guess this might just be causation of how "selective" migration into the US is.)

Immigration in general is pretty hard.

You have to leave your family and start your life over from scratch. The benefits have to be great for most people to attempt it.

I have always had a lot of respect for immigrants in general. It is definitely one of the greatest things I can point to about America. The country as a whole benefits greatly from it even though half of the country is against more of it.

Deleted member 30411 · Jan 23, 2021

bionic77 said:
People from developed and richer countries are not the ones immigrating to America or other countries.

You are literally comparing one rich country to another. Most people in the world are not lucky enough to have been born in one.

What I meant was that other developed countries don't seem to have this problem and so when considering moving from a developing country to a more developed one, I am confused as to why they would pick the US over those other countries...

nsilvias said:
Is it as easy to get into those countries as it is the US?

Although this could be the reason. I will admit that I don't have much knowledge on the subject and if it is easier to emigrate to the US than say the UK or Germany (I understand language acquisition is probably a big earmark when looking at emigration) then that could very well go some ways to explaining it.

Tbm24 · Jan 23, 2021

Scramblethink said:
What I meant was that other developed countries don't seem to have this problem and so when considering moving from a developing country to a more developed one, I am confused as to why they would pick the US over those other countries...

Although this could be the reason. I will admit that I don't have much knowledge on the subject and if it is easier to emigrate to the US than say the UK or Germany (I understand language acquisition is probably a big earmark when looking at emigration) then that could very well go some ways to explaining it.

For many immigrating to an EU country is orders of magnitudes more difficult than the US. Immigrating to the EU FROM the US is hard enough if you were inclined to do it and didn't have a company willing to put themselves on the line for you.

collige · Jan 23, 2021

Arilian said:
Kids born in France, from foreign parents, are also able to become French citizens (it's an automatic translation):

French nationality of a child born in France to foreigners parents

Are you foreigner parents of a child born in France? If you live in France, your child can obtain French nationality. We tell you the conditions to fulfill and how to apply according to your child's age.

www.service-public.fr

The law in the US is considerably simpler as there's no requirements for the parents whatsoever. That's why birth tourism is a thing here and in Canada.

molnizzle · Jan 23, 2021

Scramblethink said:
What I meant was that other developed countries don't seem to have this problem and so when considering moving from a developing country to a more developed one, I am confused as to why they would pick the US over those other countries...

It is way easier to get into the US.

The Nordic social democracies are "fuck you, got mine" in nation form.

bionic77 · Jan 23, 2021

Scramblethink said:
What I meant was that other developed countries don't seem to have this problem and so when considering moving from a developing country to a more developed one, I am confused as to why they would pick the US over those other countries...

I don't think its that easy to immigrate anywhere. Dubai has millions of immigrants but they are not going there because its better than Denmark, that was just probably the best opportunity they had. Unless you have some amazing skill or a ton of money I don't think its often a list of countries to pick from and I would assume they know what they are doing and are taking the best chance available to them.

That said I think Canada and the US are some of the best countries to immigrate to. Doesn't mean they are the best nations in the world, but in this specific category there have been very successful.

Antrax · Jan 23, 2021

BertramCooper said:
I think birthright citizenship granted by the 14th amendment plays a huge role in this.

If you move to pretty much any other developed country, you're going to have a fairly challenging time obtaining citizenship for not just yourself, but for any children you might have while living there.

In the U.S., if you come here, have kids, and build a family, your kids are U.S. citizens. Period. Even before you're able to obtain citizenship for yourself, your kids are guaranteed to have it simply for being born here.

If you're an immigrant, that's a huge incentive to come here and build a family. It's why the 14th amendment is truly one of the best things about this country.

Yeah, jus soli is the better citizenship criteria for sure. It helps reduce statelessness.

Arilian said:
Kids born in France, from foreign parents, are also able to become French citizens (it's an automatic translation):

French nationality of a child born in France to foreigners parents

Are you foreigner parents of a child born in France? If you live in France, your child can obtain French nationality. We tell you the conditions to fulfill and how to apply according to your child's age.

www.service-public.fr

Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, they can't become citizens until they're 13, and there's a shitload of paperwork involved it seems. In the US, you're a citizen the second you're out of the womb on US soil. Parental status, length of residency, etc... don't matter (unless they were only in the US as diplomats or something like that).

Scuffed · Jan 23, 2021

BossAttack said:
People shitting on immigrants coming to America is peak privilege. America has lots of problems, but you also don't seem to realize how seriously fucked up the rest of the world is.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

RealBlackHeron · Jan 23, 2021

I am originally from Central Europe and have lived in the US for over 4 years now.
My quality of life has drastically improved since living in the US, with many, many, many (yes, 3 times "many") more employment opportunities, a much more diverse environment and culture (I have friends of all races here, something I wish I could have in my hometown), and the opportunity to have a great life with my partner. I could not have that where I am from in Europe, and I personally know thousands of people from my hometown who would come to the US in a heartbeat.
America is often attacked for not having free healthcare, but where I am from healthcare is free and it takes me 3 months to get an appointment, to give you an example.

Why an American citizenship is so coveted? Because in many countries in the world people have a much more difficult existence than in America; even worse than lower income families in the US.
I have noticed that some Americans love to complain about life in the US, while every immigrant I know here is not only incredibly thankful to be gainfully employed, but also have the opportunity to raise their family in a good environment, at times in their own home (they could never be homeowners in their original country).

You don't know how great something is until you lose it, which is why many immigrants love the US and often idolize it.
I am strong believer America is the best country in the world for those and many other reasons.

TissueBox · Jan 23, 2021

Have you seen how impoverished life is like in other countries?

There is plenty of crap in the USA. Plenty of people who have moved here just end up moving back relatively empty handed.

But having relatives across the world, for many of them, what they see most frequently and prominently is what's wrong with their nation. Corruption, censorship, discrimination, lawlessness. And as far as they're concerned, the rich, world power juggernaut, media dominating, culture guiding behemoth known everywhere as the United States of America is the fantasyland that will take them away from all that. You can start from the bottom and get to the top. You can get a job anywhere if you know someone. You can make money. You can buy a house just like in the billboards.

Other rich and powerful countries exist, and some certainly have the preference to migrate there over the US.

But the US is billed with the 'American Dream'. That's its schtick. It's pop, it's hip, it's now, everyone else is doing it and have been for decades, and for many people overseas, especially some parts of Asia (UK is another story), it's status. To be American is to be cool.

S-Wind · Jan 23, 2021

ChippyTurtle said:
Not sure if anywhere else in the world I can declare myself a nationality while looking deeply unlike the majority of everyone there other than america.

Seriously?

- Canada
- U.K.
- Australia
- New Zealand
- etc.

ChippyTurtle said:
The U.S even with all it's problem is I believe easier than any other 1st world country to emigrate to.

I think it depends on the category of immigration. If you are a refugee, then Canada can be easier to get into than the U.S.

Platy · Jan 23, 2021

The USA owns the world
It is easier to immigrate than countries with a better lifestile like Norway, Sweden and Denmark because
1) not super cold weather most of the time
2) nobody knows how to speak swedish

considering most people who want to ge the FUCK out of their countries are from hot weathers and learn english as second language because the usa own the world, it gets simple

Here in brazil for example most people aim at the USA, then when they can't they aim to south Canada and then Portugal. So either speak english or speak your native language.
And yes, i know UK and Australia should have been options but .... =P

ChippyTurtle · Jan 23, 2021

S-Wind said:
Seriously?

- Canada
- U.K.
- Australia
- New Zealand
- etc.

I think it depends on the category of immigration. If you are a refugee, then Canada can be easier to get into than the U.S.

good point.

Powdered Egg · Jan 23, 2021

The answer is Hollywood.

bionic77 · Jan 23, 2021

RealBlackHeron said:
I am originally from Central Europe and have lived in the US for over 4 years now.
My quality of life has drastically improved since living in the US, with many, many, many (yes, 3 times "many") more employment opportunities, a much more diverse environment and culture (I have friends of all races here, something I wish I could have in my hometown), and the opportunity to have a great life with my partner. I could not have that where I am from in Europe, and I personally know thousands of people from my hometown who would come to the US in a heartbeat.
America is often attacked for not having free healthcare, but where I am from healthcare is free and it takes me 3 months to get an appointment, to give you an example.

Why an American citizenship is so coveted? Because in many countries in the world people have a much more difficult existence than in America; even worse than lower income families in the US.
I have noticed that some Americans love to complain about life in the US, while every immigrant I know here is not only incredibly thankful to be gainfully employed, but also have the opportunity to raise their family in a good environment, at times in their own home (they could never be homeowners in their original country).

You don't know how great something is until you lose it, which is why many immigrants love the US and often idolize it.
I am strong believer America is the best country in the world for those and many other reasons.

This is a very good post. I hope everyone reads it.

Deadlock · Jan 23, 2021

My Uncles went there for the whole American dream but that was back in the 60's, and they made it there, one gradated as a Petro Chemical engineer the other with a computer engineering degree, got great jobs and made good money. But now they say it's all changed their kids can't hope to buy houses or apartments on their own with their parents help, even tho they're engineers themselves.

And I got a friend who wants to go there because he's a Trump idiot who wants to walk around the streets of Texas with an AR-15.

EVIL · Jan 23, 2021

As someone who has been born in the Netherlands and now lives in Germany, the only reason I would move to the states would be for career reasons.
But lately I have been eyeballing Canada much more closely.

grand · Jan 23, 2021

Most countries immigration process:

A long list of technicalities, laws and red tape

US's immigration process:

Obviously there's a lot of red tape for the US too, but it's way more simplified due to the Constitution. Even illegal immigrants have a fairly good path to citizenship if they can last long enough to the inevitable Presidential amnesty.

S-Wind · Jan 23, 2021

grand said:
Yes but in theory more than execution. Canada's immigration is primarily from China & South Asia.

I don't see how what you are saying refutes the post you are replying to.

The original statement was:

Not sure if anywhere else in the world I can declare myself a nationality while looking deeply unlike the majority of everyone there other than america.

Both the poster you replied to and myself pointed out that Canada fits that criteria. Canada's current prime minister went on the national stage and emphatically declared: "A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian!" That was in response to the leader of the right wing party's racist dog whistles and straight up bullhorns.

I'd argue that the characteristic of being accepted as a person of said country despite looking very much unlike the majority of the people in that country applies more to Canada than it does to the U.S.A. The U.S. goes by the melting pot mentality, whereas Canada goes by the mosaic mentality, where one is not expected to abandon one cultural roots yet is still seen as Canadian. Furthermore, the most straight up diverse city in North America is a Canadian city: Toronto

Not that Canada doesn't have its problems of racism and a growing threat of homegrown terrorism thanks to butthurt White People.

BossAttack · Jan 23, 2021

Powdered Egg said:
The answer is Hollywood.

This ain't it.

Why is American citizenship so coveted? (actual question)

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