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Why hasn’t a “true” communist nation risen and survived?
- Thread starter Spork4000
- Start date
That's really the appeal though. I don't think communism is possible without the material appeal. Marx believed that investment in capital goods was disincentivized by the capitalist system, and so socialism would not only reallocate the higher incomes more evenly, but also spur technological development of productive forces. During the October Revolution, the refrain was land and bread. The communists have always appealed to people's desire for more. The perception of communism as equivalent to accepting poverty for all was a 20th century development. But even now, the new wave of "democratic socialists" in America consistently appeal to people's desire for higher wages, jobs, greater access to public services, education, public benefits etc.
lmao you real dude?
capitalism got a huge list of flaws but at least you wake up in the morning knowing you can choose how to live your life
I swear some of you people have never read what it's like to live in a communist country where your every action is under review of higher forces
Yes, millions of people choosing to drive an hour to work to do jobs they don't like and then drive an hour back to pay for the roof over their heads and the food in their fridge.
Such freedom. Very independence. Wow.
Until resources can be easily distributed, are plentiful, and people are all educated to do whatever want, I am not sure it will work. We're basically talking about the world of Star Trek: The Next Generation. There's just Earth now, no borders, no social classes, no currency, and people may pursue whatever want.
You're right. We haven't read what it's like to live in a communist country...because as the actual title of this thread suggests, one has never existed.
So you'd rather live in places where you don't get to choose which job you won't like, then go to a government-owned house to watch the government propaganda in TV, then eat your government mandated rations, and never do anything in life beyond that?
Give me a break, you people are pathetically out of touch with reality.
downplaying america's role in snuffing out any semblance of a labor/leftist movement at home or abroad is the wave now huh?
yessir. I think a lot of people confuse the nature of power structures and think since humans can create dominating ones it is human nature.
agreed. the only way we're going to survive the upcoming trials is through introspection of the environment we were raised in.
hopefully we won't be able to late.
We're talking relative arguments. If you had the freedom to choose what to study, where to work and where to live you've already smashed the standards set in any observed communist country.
I hope you're not of the group that insist people shouldn't have to work if they don't want to.
The reality where the richest states in the US also have the highest concentration of homeless? I'm sure they all wake up feeling satisfied by the freedom and cardboard box over their heads.
Yes, especiall
And how would there be none of that in a theoretical communist society, unless we had advanced to a fantasy-land post-scarcity society?
Which air conditioning unit do you want to purchase while the world fries?
Reading through this thread and I see only a few posts that truly seem to grasp that communism is varied in its different implementations within the past, such as Marxism, Leninism, Maoism etc. They all took the communist ideal and put their own twist on it, often to very bad ends because they weren't exactly nice people themselves.
If you say something like "You don't want to live in a communist country!", you absolutely miss the point of the discussion. Do some reading on the end objectives of actual communism, then come back to the thread, please.
If you say something like "You don't want to live in a communist country!", you absolutely miss the point of the discussion. Do some reading on the end objectives of actual communism, then come back to the thread, please.
Reality is manifold my dude. If only your thinking would aspire to mirror that, because ime most socialists by far aren't tankies.
I didn't say there would be none of that in a communist society.
But this phrase:
Is laughable. We call those "higher forces" in capitalist countries "the free market", "Smith's invisible hand" or "the economy". Some people also call them "my boss" and "liberal elites".
If you want to make a critique of communism per se, be my guest. If you want to levy a criticism against it that exists in every form of government and social organization hitherto seen in human history, I'm going to have words.
Power has positive feedback loops.
Capitalist societies exist. Doesn't mean individuals in it thrive or that they're good for the planet or humanity.
Capitalist societies exist. Doesn't mean individuals in it thrive or that they're good for the planet or humanity.
My man what you've described is the American way of life for about half of the country. Except I guess a government owned house would be cheaper.
So you'd rather everyone be poor and homeless then? Because that's real communism, everyone but the state leaders suffer every single day of their lives.
The reality where the richest states in the US also have the highest concentration of homeless? I'm sure they all wake up feeling satisfied by the freedom and cardboard box over their heads.
Of course tho, it isn't capitalism's fault that the US constantly chooses people to lead them that resemble actual communist leaders.
Yes why not just try to dehumanize people you disagree with.
Why would this be resolved in any other society. Do you think a communist country can't pollute?
Would you rather live in a society where you'll die on the street alone if you have mental health issues?
Then you always have the freedom to try and immigrate into another country, vote for other leaders, etc.
But I guess having 45 million people die due to incompetence is better.
No it isn't. You've drank the kool aid way past the recommended dose.
Yeah because communism historically did something about it right 🤔
Barely any Communist country did anything different besides Yugoslavia.
Is that somehow not happening with communism? In fact, in the communism described by Marx if you are unfit to work you are less than nothing to society.
The reality where the richest states in the US also have the highest concentration of homeless? I'm sure they all wake up feeling satisfied by the freedom and cardboard box over their heads.
Not going to dive deep into the communism debate because everything's already been said in this thread, but this is an atrocious map. What do the percentages mean? Percentage of people living in those states that are homeless or percentage of overall homeless people in the US that live in those states?
Having live a few years in China as a kid in the 90s, I want to ask you two questions.
Is China communist?
Do you think I was suffering every single day of my life?
In the interest of honesty, yes these are both trick questions.
Funny you saying that when People's Temple pushed their own brand of socialism up unti everyone died.
Because that's what communism always has and always will be, a mad man controlling everyone else, that is human nature.
you understand that communism is a stateless society right? because authoritarian societies calling themselves communist doesn't make them so.
Ah sorry here's the source.
And it's the total amount of homeless people distributed across America. The worst part of the chart, imo, is that CA is a deeper shade of red than NY so NY seems to have about 15% of homeless of Americans but you'd never get that from the legend. Yes, it's a bad chart. I just threw up something quick, it's not really an important resource for learning about the problem of homelessness in America.
1. No, they've long abandoned commnunism for normal capitalism. Of course in their communist phase they did do great stuff like killing millions, famines, cultural destruction, reeducation, etc.
2. is this relevant? If your entire argument relies on trick questions you've already lost.
So then something that can never happen, gotcha.
No true communism is one of the stupidest things I've seen. If every "communist" state turns into the same thing then maybe the problem is that communism is a stupid, unrealistic goal that has no place in actually helping humanity.
No, it isn't. You're thinking of implementations like Stalinism and Maoism. They created cults of personality where they tried to push the idea that Big Daddy will forcibly make everyone equal.
Communism is the objective of everyone accepting that everyone will get along better if we all cooperate and work together to achieve ends, and using nobody as a means to an end. Possessing the means of production instead of it being in the hands of some dickhead who expects people to sell their labour to them so they can make a profit.
Of course, its hard to get everyone to accept this and not act like a stupid selfish shite. In theory, it makes great sense, and is extremely interesting as a societal model. Much more favourable than capitalism that aims to exploit an underclass and let the owners of the means of production reap the profits and the good life.
Looking it up, it is the latter (for example, 33 out of every 10,000 california residents is homeless, which is still relatively high, mind, but nowhere near 20% or even 1%, and yeah that map itself says nothing at all other than which states have higher populations). Also, it goes without saying that the denser an area it is, the higher the cost of housing, the more people homeless. Nimbys make that MUCH worse of course, but that'd be the case regardless. Which is a problem, of course.
I see, good. I was afraid I was talking to one of those people who thinks China is communist.
Sounds like something that 19th century philosophers, extremely priviledged people with a tenous grasp on the actual struggles of the working clase, may have thought would work if we bypass what makes humans tick. The truth is that communism is counteractive to human nature, everyone will always want things to benefit them in some way, and the truth is not everyone will always be happy 100% of the time with their enviroment. It is something that simply is not viable and will never be. A Star Trek utopian society will never be achieved because human nature means no matter what, someone will always be an outsider to the group due to our inherent differences.
As someone from outside of the US, its always hilarious seeing US citizens and their knee-jerk reactions to the topic of communism. Instantly its like chimps trying to riot in a zoo. Shit being flung all over the place, screeching about how evil communism is and how you can't discuss it at all, not even in a thought experiment, because capitalism is apparently the greatest thing that ever existed.
Listen mate, you shoud probably do some actual research into the nature of a communist political economy before you start throwing around accusations of what you think it would be. Start here:
Particularly focus on the bolded part in this quote. Read it, and then re-read it, and then re-read it again until you understand. Pay particular attention to the underlined bit.
I think the idea that China is communist comes from peoples perception of their government being authoritarian with the ability to seize control of things and people at will. I see people saying this kind of stuff a lot, especially with things like the arguments for banning Huawei out of fear of Chinese spy technology and their government using their infrastructure for nefarious means. People conflating things.
I think I'm more offended by the idea of statelessness working than by anybody who just follows the ideology of "everybody benefits"
Fortunately, I'm already in the US but regarding this point.
Love to see all these people living free from a higher power, not eating government rations and not living in government housing.
I am reading it
Funny how it's always the "that isn't true communism" defense
If every communist community turns into 1984 maybe it's time to stop trying
I mean it's simple enough to rephrase the problem as why has the attempted implementation of communism repeatedly failed, and not just failed but repeatedly produced brutal, authoritarian regimes throughout history.
It's untenable on top of being a logistical nightmare so I wish people wouldn't have such a severe worldview about it. I think a social democracy is the best I can expect in my lifetime, and we're on our way. It's also the furthest I'd feel comfortable going for a variety of reasons. I expect the US will get there within the next 20-30 years, even if it's at the rightmost spectrum of it.
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And a capitalist society doesn't work either because humans are lazy and want to bypass the work required to get to the objective, meaning crime has become a large factor in society, both organised and disorganised. Its also incredibly wasteful in its cycle and is clearly ruining our planet. There's also the fact that the rich don't want to pay appropriately for the labour of the ordinary person, and so people stay poor or get poorer, ending up in situations such as homelessness or just dying of abject poverty. This has often led to societal upsets and revolts against the rich.
You have a seriously huge chip on your shoulder regarding the IDEA of communism and don't seem to want to accept the problems of capitalism in any way, shape or form, just because its a system that appears to work for you. "At least I've got a roof over my head!". I'm sure people in the cobalt mines of the Congo fucking love capitalism, living their best lives dying of disease borne from spending the majority of their days knee-deep in mud looking for shit that will make your next iPhone, only making enough money to consume a meagre amount of rice every day.