• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,338
The DCAU has produced some of the greatest forms of animation of all time. On the other hand, well Marvel has had the Spectacular Spider-man and Avengers EMH, which were great but cancelled too soon. Sure shows like X-Men existed but it along Spider-Man TAS haven't aged well. We had a FF, Iron Man and Hulk Show which were forgetabble. X-men evolution and Iron Man armored adventures were good but are overlooked/underrated. And the current marvel shows are just bad, with real stinkers being ultimate spiderman and hulk and the agents of smash. MCU and live action tv is great, so why is the animation side lacking?
 

Jahranimo

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,001
The same reason why why Marvel Studios is doing much better than DC in the movie department: They just have more talent and have their shit together.
 
Last edited:
Oct 28, 2017
6,119
Because children don't care if the shows are good.

DCAU is different because it has a different target audience, i.e., adults. Marvel clearly doesn't care to target adults and they shouldn't -- the MCU has plenty of content already and does not need more.
 

HibbySloth

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,152
What Sony did with Spiderverse is an eye opener to just how much of a shit show Disney and Marvel treat animated projects.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,879
Columbia, SC
It's like when the MCU push came, the shows got so much worse across the board in every aspect. Writing got worse, art got worse, like I wish I could nail the exact point of what I'm trying to say but it just feels like the shows just wanted kids to sit down an watch a commercial for 30 minutes.
 

Finaj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,358
What Sony did with Spiderverse is an eye opener to just how much of a shit show Disney and Marvel treat animated projects.

Let's not act like Sony Pictures Animation suddenly has their shit together. The year prior to Spider-verse, Sony released the Emoji movie. Unless more good comes from them, I think Spider-verse was just a fluke.
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
18,875
Because Marvel is stuck in the painfully stupid mindset of "animation is for children, so who gives a shit"

It's so damn aggravating
 

dreamobserver

Member
Oct 27, 2017
478
there's still human people who make these things, I honestly wonder if they know that they're making shit.

or is it just you're so deep in the creative space (and money in your face) that you don't even realize it
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,261
I hope the upcoming What If's are a step in the right direction

What Sony did with Spiderverse is an eye opener to just how much of a shit show Disney and Marvel treat animated projects.
The depressing side is that Spiderverse made less money than Amazing Spiderman 2.

Animation is basically neglected because it doesn't make the big money.
 

Disco

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,444
lowkey worried about Spiderverse 2. First was an incredible superhero movie but this new one shares none of the writers, the sole scriptwriter is the guy who gave us the screenplays for Doom, Expendables, Wonder Woman 1984 (and he's next up on Shang Chi we'll see how that fares). none of them have any charm thats for damn sure.

the director they got is cool tho but I don't know why they didn't just stick with the last team.
 

RLCC14

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,447
They had something with Spectacular and EMH but the Disney purchase fucked everything up
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,097
UK
lowkey worried about Spiderverse 2. First was an incredible superhero movie but this new one shares none of the writers, the sole scriptwriter is the guy who gave us the screenplays for Doom, Expendables, Wonder Woman 1984 (and he's next up on Shang Chi we'll see how that fares). none of them have any charm thats for damn sure.

the director they got is cool tho but I don't know why they didn't just stick with the last team.
This is all news to me and it's depressing to hear. Oh well, no one can take away how special Spiderverse was.
 
Jun 16, 2018
246
Probably worried about "tarnishing" the brand. They should just do a separate animated continuity like DC had, it made for some good movies
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,152
Greater Vancouver
Allow me to speak from experience.

Because we never got the budget or freedom these other examples got, while simultaneously expected to be a brand awareness initiative to promote characters in the years between movie appearances of Thor, Captain America etc.

Perlmutter was a cheap motherfucker.
 
OP
OP
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,338
Allow me to speak from experience.

Because we never got the budget or freedom these other examples got, while simultaneously expected to be a brand awareness initiative to promote characters in the years between movie appearances of Thor, Captain America etc.

Perlmutter was a cheap motherfucker.
what did you work on?
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,152
Greater Vancouver
what did you work on?
5 years of the Avengers series (incl. Black Panther's Quest), some of the latest Spider-Man season.

To be clear, I'm certainly not dismissing the work of the people who put fucking everything into doing their best work. I'm proud as shit of some of the calls I got to make to heighten characters that mattered to me, including Ms. Marvel and Black Panther.

But fundamentally, the overall failure to connect with people comes from the intent of higher-ups and how they perceived this show. It's a marketing vehicle - that's why characters were brought in when they were, and choices had to be made to align things with the movies. We were beholden to that, and not supported to do anything more.

That said, I think of the work Geoff Thorne did as showrunner on the Black Panther season, and he did some really fantastic work into making a focused dramatic series. I'm still surprised that I get to say I got to work on certain key moments.
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2017
19,732
lowkey worried about Spiderverse 2. First was an incredible superhero movie but this new one shares none of the writers, the sole scriptwriter is the guy who gave us the screenplays for Doom, Expendables, Wonder Woman 1984 (and he's next up on Shang Chi we'll see how that fares). none of them have any charm thats for damn sure.

the director they got is cool tho but I don't know why they didn't just stick with the last team.
I wasn't aware of any of this. That's a real bummer. Here's to hoping they pull off a miracle.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,283
Houston, TX
Jeph Loeb & Ike Perlmutter, that's why.

Allow me to speak from experience.

Because we never got the budget or freedom these other examples got, while simultaneously expected to be a brand awareness initiative to promote characters in the years between movie appearances of Thor, Captain America etc.

Perlmutter was a cheap motherfucker.
Basically what he said.
 

mreddie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
43,976
Wonder what happens now since What If and Moon Girl & Devil Dinosaur are coming and both are very different.

There's rumors that Disney+ will have new X-Men and Avengers animated shows.

5 years of the Avengers series (incl. Black Panther's Quest), some of the latest Spider-Man season.

To be clear, I'm certainly not dismissing the work of the people who put fucking everything into doing their best work. I'm proud as shit of some of the calls I got to make to heighten characters that mattered to me, including Ms. Marvel and Black Panther.

But fundamentally, the overall failure to connect with people comes from the intent of higher-ups and how they perceived this show. It's a marketing vehicle - that's why characters were brought in when they were, and choices had to be made to align things with the movies. We were beholden to that, and not supported to do anything more.

That said, I think of the work Geoff Thorne did as showrunner on the Black Panther season, and he did some really fantastic work into making a focused dramatic series. I'm still surprised that I get to say I got to work on certain key moments.
Yeah, what's weird is that almost all the seasons have barely any continuity with each other, I have to assume the writers thought it was nothing compared to the DC stuff at the same time and you guys got jackshit to work with thanks to Ike and Jeph.
 

Protoman200X

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
8,553
N. Vancouver, BC, Canada
Speaking with my experience working in the animation industry, it's important to remember that these cartoons have the sole purpose to promote brand awareness for the characters Marvel Studios has been developing and promoting over the course of decades between live-action movie appearances. Cable networks (and streaming platforms to a lesser extent) have very specific programming desires, and one of those is repeatability. For the kid shows for the age 6-10 set, said kids are much more inclined to turn on and watch whatever is on, and if it's a show that requires a lot of backstory or exposition to enjoy, then it becomes increasingly difficult to justify renewing that series if the viewership (or return investment) isn't there.

I know there are exceptions to this rule, and the trend has been changing with the advent of streaming services money hatting to bring in subscribers to their platform, with original content that could NEVER exist during the cable/satellite era of television. But multi-episode serial story arcs in kids programming doesn't really bring in high ratings/viewership in for that key demographic. And it's a death wish if there isn't a merchandise line to bring in revenue to keep the lights on, regardless if there's an older audience that became invested, as studios aren't interested with that viewership if they're not bringing in the targeted demographic.

5 years of the Avengers series (incl. Black Panther's Quest), some of the latest Spider-Man season.

To be clear, I'm certainly not dismissing the work of the people who put fucking everything into doing their best work. I'm proud as shit of some of the calls I got to make to heighten characters that mattered to me, including Ms. Marvel and Black Panther.

But fundamentally, the overall failure to connect with people comes from the intent of higher-ups and how they perceived this show. It's a marketing vehicle - that's why characters were brought in when they were, and choices had to be made to align things with the movies. We were beholden to that, and not supported to do anything more.

That said, I think of the work Geoff Thorne did as showrunner on the Black Panther season, and he did some really fantastic work into making a focused dramatic series. I'm still surprised that I get to say I got to work on certain key moments.

To this day, I have nothing but respect for the storyboard crew on Avengers: Assemble to make those bone-crunching deadlines. I only had a brief time on that show (before being taken off due to lack of SB experience at the time), but I was nothing but impressed with the work you guys did when I was working on the first season.

Anyway, what Khanimus said, the modern crop of Marvel shows are vehicles to promote the live-action side of things. And there isn't really any justification to go beyond that if there isn't a reasonable budget or creative freedom.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,409
But fundamentally, the overall failure to connect with people comes from the intent of higher-ups and how they perceived this show. It's a marketing vehicle - that's why characters were brought in when they were, and choices had to be made to align things with the movies. We were beholden to that, and not supported to do anything more.

Mmm. "If you can't sell robots to boys and umbrellas to girls, the show shouldn't exist".

That Stu Snyder mentality needs to die out.
 

vhoanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,156
Vietnam
Because Kevin Feige only can care about MCU. Other departments were not his concern until recently.
Looking forward to What If series.
 

Valkerion

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,228
It seems like the shows constantly tried to ape the movies and once they started coming into their own at the end of a season, Marvel cancelled them for the next thing.

I full stopped watched Marvels animation stuff around the time Wolverine and X-Men ended.
 

Finaika

Member
Dec 11, 2017
13,276
The same reason why why Marvel Studios is doing much better than DC in the movie department: They just have more talent and have their shit together.
The reason why Marvel's animation been so lackluster is because they have more talent and have their shit together?
 
Last edited:

MadLaughter

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,084
Jeph Loeb literally nuked Earth's Mightiest Heroes because it was too 'serialized'.

It's Jeph Loeb.
 
Oct 27, 2017
595
I have definitely wondered if they would even do an animated series that isn't "connected" to the MCU. Like...Would they do a Ms. Marvel animated series and tell all of the Khan stories that they might want to "save" for the live action show/movie?

Could they have a separate animated universe...?
 

sven

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,544
I don't know but I hope they get their shit together in time to put out some killer X-Men animated content.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,653
Let's not act like Sony Pictures Animation suddenly has their shit together. The year prior to Spider-verse, Sony released the Emoji movie. Unless more good comes from them, I think Spider-verse was just a fluke.
They occasionally make good stuff, like Surf's Up and Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs. The Hotel Transylvania films are decent too, they have some neat exaggerated squash-and-stretch style animation that Disney has all but abandoned when they switched to CGI (and Pixar has never bothered with).

 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,879
Columbia, SC
Jeph Loeb literally nuked Earth's Mightiest Heroes because it was too 'serialized'.

It's Jeph Loeb.

I still to this day will go back and binge EMH, well the earlier seasons. I feel like it had the right balance of being able to jump in like a saturday morning cartoon with overarching plot threads and character development. Last season wasn't as great for obvious reasons and I don't blame anyone worked on any of those shows as it just seems things happen that take the decisions out of their hands and they can only do the best they can with what they have.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,412
5 years of the Avengers series (incl. Black Panther's Quest), some of the latest Spider-Man season.

To be clear, I'm certainly not dismissing the work of the people who put fucking everything into doing their best work. I'm proud as shit of some of the calls I got to make to heighten characters that mattered to me, including Ms. Marvel and Black Panther.

But fundamentally, the overall failure to connect with people comes from the intent of higher-ups and how they perceived this show. It's a marketing vehicle - that's why characters were brought in when they were, and choices had to be made to align things with the movies. We were beholden to that, and not supported to do anything more.

That said, I think of the work Geoff Thorne did as showrunner on the Black Panther season, and he did some really fantastic work into making a focused dramatic series. I'm still surprised that I get to say I got to work on certain key moments.
It's weirder because shows are poorly marketing as well. Barely any ads and shown only on Disney XD. It really hurt whatever they were try do with whatever the Marvel Rising thing was. Seriously what happened there? Lol
 
Aug 13, 2019
3,574
I recently watched the newest Spider-Man and it wasn't awful, I guess. I liked what they did with Doctor Octopus and... that's it. I really liked Earth's Mightiest Heroes, but that was ages ago and they replaced it with... ugh.

How's the Guardians of the Galaxy cartoon?
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,638
The DCAU has been pretty impressive, so impressive I forget WB is still trying make the DCEU something not terrible. Though I was disappointed with how JL Dark Apokolips War ended.

Like with anything, investment in talent and good leadership.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,152
Greater Vancouver
It's weirder because shows are poorly marketing as well. Barely any ads and shown only on Disney XD. It really hurt whatever they were try do with whatever the Marvel Rising thing was. Seriously what happened there? Lol
The final season of Avengers is entirely focused on Black Panther, the history of Wakanda, his relationships. Different showrunner, completely redesigned look, its own subtitle. It was practically a unique show on its own if not for a tiny Avengers logo at the top.

Most people had no idea it even existed. I remember Marc Bernardin tweeted something like "Wait a sec, there's a Black Panther cartoon? How did no one know anything about this?"
 

Cheerilee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
Batman (1989) was one of the biggest blockbusters of all time when it came out, which led to WB putting a lot of money behind Batman the Animated Series (1992), and they got talented artists who were able to use that money well.

X-Men was basically a nothing property in 1992, and Saban agreed to produce the animated series at a loss as part of a Power Rangers business deal. After the successful cartoon increased X-Men's stature, Marvel sold the X-Men to Fox in 1993 (eventually resulting in the 2000 movie). X-Men's ownership might have just as well been passed around as a bet in someone's card game.

X-Men TAS was animated by AKOM, the low-budget company built by Transformers director Nelson Shin to make TF seasons 3&4 for cheaper than Toei would do it (and the quality difference between TF seasons 1&2 and the movie, and seasons 3&4, is readily apparent).

Batman TAS was animated by anime companies like TMS and Sunrise. Batman TAS also worked with AKOM, until they realized that AKOM couldn't do the kind of quality that they wanted so they fired them.

Batman TAS and X-Men TAS were never on the same level, and even years later (with shows like Justice League Unlimited and Spiderman or whatever) they were never equal, simply due to how different their starting positions were.
 

Mariolee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,305
Allow me to speak from experience.

Because we never got the budget or freedom these other examples got, while simultaneously expected to be a brand awareness initiative to promote characters in the years between movie appearances of Thor, Captain America etc.

Perlmutter was a cheap motherfucker.

It is insane to me how so many incompetent people sit at the top like Ike Perlmutter. Kevin Feige hates him for good reason. I'm so sorry y'all had to go through all that.
 

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,267
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
I hope Marvel Studios takes a look at DC Entertainment productions like Harley Quinn (2019) moving forward. A Deadpool adult oriented animated series seems like an obvious thing to do.
 

Sadist

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,329
Holland
The Black Panther one is actually fun, of the episodes I've seen.

But I miss EMH; fun show, even if the second Season was the Avengers and their amazing friends. It has a better version of Secret Invasion
 
Oct 25, 2017
29,436
It's like when the MCU push came, the shows got so much worse across the board in every aspect. Writing got worse, art got worse, like I wish I could nail the exact point of what I'm trying to say but it just feels like the shows just wanted kids to sit down an watch a commercial for 30 minutes.

Its exactly what happened,

Avengers show became MCU-jr edition that had to wait for a movie to promote till it could do anything Ultron>Thanos>Black Panter focus.
Spiderman became super reliant on crossovers, heavy SHIELD focus, and a diverse team of sidekicks while Spiderman himself was a joke,
Spiderman reboot # 2 decided to make Peter/Spiderman even more bland despite getting story again and toss in the hot new sidekick team(Miles, Gwen)

Avengers Assembled at least tried at times early on and could be fun,
Spiderman though its painfully clear they just want a dang Spiderman commercial going with little effort put in other than maybe trying to legitimize the sidekicks for new wide audiences for an episode now and then.
(i'll give it to Ultimate Spiderman though, his team was enjoyable and White Tiger was an interesting inclusion)
 

Sou Da

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
Spiderman became super reliant on crossovers, heavy SHIELD focus, and a diverse team of sidekicks while Spiderman himself was a joke,
Ultimate Spider-Man had no fucking idea what it wanted to be. I remember seeing the very last episode and it just randomly decided to be a Spider-Man show again despite not even having shown Peter out of costume for a whole ass season. Shit was just "hey you care about the Osborns right?" after them not showing up in god knows how long
 

¡Hip Hop!

Member
Nov 9, 2017
1,837
I haven't watched much of the animated Marvel stuff, because yeah, it mostly sucks. They don't seem to have a Bruce Timm or anything close. Besides the pig and robot spider chick, Into The Spiderverse was great. I give more credit to the producers/directors for that than Marvel though. Beyond that though, I really don't care. Even the "What If" show doesn't look great to me.
 
Oct 25, 2017
29,436
I do think its of serious note here that Disney XD is absolute garbage as a network.
DC at least had
Prime Fox Kids
Prime Kids WB
Prime Cartoon Network

Look at Marvel's best
Fox Kids - XMen, Spiderman
Kids WB - XMen Evolution
Cartoon Network - Spectacular Spiderman

XD started getting Disney/Marvel/Star Wars and handled all of them poorly
Avengers EMH - 2 years
Tron
Ultimate Spiderman
Avengers Assemble
Star Wars Rebels
XD Spiderman
etc

Even Wolverine & the XMen was Nicktoons.