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Stowaway Silfer

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
32,819
Note: This topic isn't about whether you like or dislike the direction taken in recent Halo games like Reach, 4 and 5. Rather, its focus is on the viability of a new Halo game that innovates with the same philosophy as Halo 2 and 3 when innovating from their respective predecessors (supporting the core Halo formula by innovating through the sandbox) instead of the philosophy of Reach, 4 and 5 (reshaping the core Halo formula by innovating through fundamental mechanics). I like all FPS Halo games except Halo 4 and I prefer the method of the first two sequels and that's what made me start thinking about the subject but it's not actually the point of the topic.

dims

It's been almost a decade since the release of Halo Reach and the start of a trend where mainline Halo releases would each try to change by adding new core pillars to the gameplay. Halo: Reach added Armor Abilities that players would choose at the start of matches. Halo 4 kept Armor Abilities while making Sprint a universal trait and added customizable loadouts, perks and the ability to call in random weapons when getting a high enough score. Halo 5 removed the features that caused disparities between players at the start of matches and replaced Armor Abilities with Spartan Abilities that are common to every player in a match.


Reception to these changes has been mixed on various fronts but what I'd like to focus on is an idea that is often brought up to defend the kind of change that has been seen with the franchise over recent years. It's the idea that these changes help Halo "keep up" with the current landscape of video games. That this approach to change is better suited to the contemporary market.

This is what I've been thinking about a lot recently because I believe that in the current market, Halo would be greatly rewarded by going back to its roots and I'm very interested in discussing that to see whether there is as much validity to my thoughts as I think. Because some of the things I'm about to bring up are things I may only have cursory knowledge and understanding of and so I'm looking to learn.


Variety in Multiplayer is celebrated

Just looking at the list of most played games on Xbox One, it seems like people are playing quite a wide variety of titles. Some of them may share a genre or a focus on a particular game mode but from what I've seen of these games (cause there's only a handful I've actually played a lot of), they play quite differently from each other. Just looking at the Top 5 FPS on that list, Apex Legends, Black Ops 4, Rainbow Six: Siege, Destiny 2 and Overwatch, they all appear to be pretty different from each other and to use different formulas in their gameplay. There are shared traits among a lot of the games on the list but overall, I think it's safe to say that there isn't a single mentality with which developers of these games created them. This is quite unlike the previous console generation where many games where adding perks, loadouts, progression systems, killstreaks and whatnot in response to Call of Duty's success.

Sprint and ADS are not considered essential

Sprinting as a core mechanic in modern FPS doesn't really seem to be considered essential, same with aiming down sights. In 2016, the reboot of Doom came out, didn't feature a Sprint mechanic or ADS, and it has done really well. I played and loved this game and for a while now, it's been what I'd always think of when thinking of how Halo could go back to not having Sprint/ADS. However, recently while thinking about this topic, I did a tiny bit research and found out that both Overwatch and Counter-Strike GO, two games that unlike Halo I've never played and thus don't know that much about, also don't have Sprinting and ADS as core mechanics (apparently in Overwatch, select characters have access to these features). Those games are also some of the most popular online games this generation, with Overwatch being pretty high on the list found above and CSGO consistently having hundreds of thousands of players online on Steam and being ranked in the top 3 most played games on that platform. That says to me that right now, Sprint/ADS aren't seen as pre-requisites for a popular online shooter.

(I would argue that they weren't even prerequisites when they were first added to Halo but that's besides the point)

The "Enhanced Mobility" trend is dead

At the start of this console generation, it looked like enhanced mobility in the shooter space was the new hotness. The first example that was notable to me was Titanfall and the freedom of movement was a pretty big reason for why I and many others were excited for it. Then we had Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare, Blacks Ops III, Titanfall 2, Infinite Warfare and maybe some other games I'm unaware of. In the middle of that released Halo 5, featuring enhanced mobility of its own with sprinting, a thruster pack, clambering and other stuff. But now I don't really see as many games releasing with those features. They haven't been present in Call of Duty: WW2 and Black Ops 4, both opting for a "boots on the ground" approach, and even Respawn Entertainment's new game, Apex Legends, doesn't have the same movement options as Titanfall. So, it seems to me like as a trend, enhanced mobility as died off.

"Returning to your roots" is free hype

A lot of franchises this generation have returned to their "roots" to great success. As mentioned above, Call of Duty: WW2 dialed back on the previous entries' futuristic settings and accompanying enhanced mobility in favor of a return to its WW2, boots-on-the-ground roots and apparently sold twice as many copies as the game it succeeded. Even before its release it felt like excitement for it was really high thanks to the change in direction. Doom's reboot returned to its roots and modernized its core formula to great critical and commercial success, thanks to which we now get to see them expand on it with a sequel. Even recently, Capcom has found commercial and critical success in the releases of Resident Evil 2 Remake and Devil May Cry 5, to games that capitalize on the aspects of their franchises that fans fell in love with a long time ago. Those are just a few examples among many and I really can't describe the gains from "returning to your roots" as anything other than free hype, because that's what it feels like to me.

It seems to even have an effect on the people who weren't already into previous releases in those franchises. Because it's easier to get excited about something when the people who are targeted are very excited themselves. I've felt it myself with Doom 2016, which is based on a franchise that was created years before my birth but that didn't matter when I saw how passionate the fans of the series were about the reboot. I've felt it with Devil May Cry, a series in which the only game I'd fully played through was the divisive reboot but that didn't matter when that trailer played at E3 and made me think "Oh damn this is what DMC is supposed to be?!" and now DMC5 is one of my favorite video games.

I've even felt it with Halo. The first Halo game I played was Halo: Reach. Then I played Halo 4. And while playing those, I'd go online and see many people longing for a game in the vein of the original trilogy which made me curious about those games, made read and learn about them to the point where I also ended up wanting to try a new release in that style. That curiosity coupled with the general excitement surrounding the announcement of the Master Chief Collection meant I was really excited as well. And once the MCC came out, I understood. I ended up loving the way the original trilogy of games played, both in terms of campaign and multiplayer, to the point where even though I didn't grow up with "Classic Halo", I still became more of a fan of that than I am the newer ones.

The hype from a return to a series' roots has even been seen with the little that has been shown and discussed with Halo Infinite. The reveal trailer that was simple, hopeful and showed a new art-style inspired by the classic Halo art style has been very well received and it seems like the sentiment for what we've seen of Infinite's art style (with its simpler design Master Chief and the return of black undersuits) is much more positive that the one for the art style of Halo 4/5.



In conclusion, I just really think that signs point towards a Halo game made with the formula of CE-3 doing really well. Halo needing to adapt to the market is an idea that I've seen and heard very often in the past years, particularly since 343 took over the franchise with Halo 4, and with decisions that have been taken with the franchise since Reach, it's probably fair to say that trends are factored very heavily into the development of newer Halo games since they've seemingly lead to features being added even when those change the formula instead of supporting it. And so, if the trends are so important, if the market and adapting to it are so important, then I think that even with their importance taken into account, the market seems to be saying that all Halo Infinite needs to do in order to succeed, in order to achieve longevity and in order to compete, is to be Halo.


Do you feel that Halo Infinite would benefit from returning to its roots? Do you think that such a game would work in the current market? Do you think there's something I'm missing that could help me better understand why a classic Halo may not be viable today?
 

2Blackcats

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,076
I want an alternate time line reboot like the star treks did.

I've always enjoyed Halo multiplayer so not too picky on that front
 

Maximum Spider

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,999
Cleveland, OH
I just want it to play like Halo 3. I like Reach quite a bit probably because it still felt somewhat similar but Halo 4 completely lost me. Never tried 5. I really miss that arcade style FPS.
 

Polyh3dron

Prophet of Regret
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,860
It's nice to want things. I want those things too. There is no way we will get those things.
 

Kasey

Member
Nov 1, 2017
10,822
Boise
I'm all for returning Halo to it's roots as long as the Chief doesn't move slow as molasses.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
I doubt it's happening, that's why they're doing all the remasters.

I'm all for returning Halo to it's roots as long as the Chief doesn't move slow as molasses.
This too. There's a reason the MLG settings of Halo 3 had 120% movement speed iirc
 

Fatmanp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,438
100% agreed with everything in the OP. Innovate through the sandbox instead of altering fundamental mechanics i.e copying every other game.
 

Wein Cruz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,772
Nah most people seem to really enjoy the mobility of Halo 5 so they better keep that shit.

Stinkles ignore this person!!
 

SweetNicole

The Old Guard
Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,542
Halo returning its roots is one of my dream wishes for the series. I know it will probably never happen, but I would be so excited.
 

TheUnseenTheUnheard

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 25, 2018
9,647
I would personally like a balance. Halo 5 introduced some awesome gameplay features like Spartan Abilities.
 

Bigfellahull

Prophet of Truth
Member
Mar 6, 2018
561
I love Halo 2 and 3 multiplayer - but Halo 5 for me is the best. I like the enhanced movement. Playing older Halo's without clamber and the air dash is frustrating. Not a fan of the ground pound though. My only complaint of Halo 5 was not enough focus on casual BTB. I love competitive arena 4v4 but sometimes you want to chill out and take part in crazy vehicle battles.
 

asd202

Enlightened
Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,559
I wonder how this will pan out with there being a PC version day one and the go to version for the hardcore players. I could be wrong but wasn't the game design in a certain way because it was a console and pad exclusive?
 
Jan 4, 2018
8,644
Get rid of Cortana, Spartans-IV, Osiris team and the Prometheans. Bring back the Covenant and the Prophets.

Halo needs to be the bleak military sci-fi it used to be, not a comic with a superhero (Halo 4/5).
 
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jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,757
Halo 5 doesn't have ADS.

It just added zoom to all weapons, few would complain about it if they hadn't changed the visuals.

With regards to the general topic. I'm mixed personally. I think Infinite would likely be more successful if it returned to a more classic style of gameplay, however, 5 is by far my favourite of the titles in terms of gameplay.


I think an ideal compromise would be to take Halo 5's mechanics and remove sprint/slide/charge for Infinite's arena multiplayer. Keep thruster because it adds a whole new dynamic to the combat and is generally just a ton of fun to use. Keep clamber because it makes movement far smoother and helps reduce that floaty feeling which classic Halo has.
 
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OP
OP
Stowaway Silfer

Stowaway Silfer

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
32,819
I just want it to play like Halo 3. I like Reach quite a bit probably because it still felt somewhat similar but Halo 4 completely lost me. Never tried 5. I really miss that arcade style FPS.
If you're interested in multiplayer, I would recommend trying 5 if you ever get the chance. I don't exactly like it as a Halo game because of its different formula but in its own right, detached from the series it's a part of, I enjoy it and like it more than most other MP games thanks to the equal starts.

It's nice to want things. I want those things too. There is no way we will get those things.
I'm not holding my breath either but with the return of the classic art style, I wouldn't be shocked if it happened.
I think it is important to note the ADS in Halo 5 is cosmetic only.
Actually it does affect the accuracy of some weapons. For example, the AR has less spread in ADS/Smart Scope.
Though the actual gameplay implications of these new features weren't the point of the topic since they've been well documented over the years.
I wonder how this will pan out with there being a PC version day one and the go to version for the hardcore players. I could be wrong but wasn't the game design in a certain way because it was a console and pad exclusive?
Apparently yeah the console nature of Halo affected a lot of parts of its design like the kind of reticule it uses, how big the targets are and stuff like that. But with the change to PC, I imagine it won't be changed much just like how other console-focused shooters don't change much.
 

Akai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,045
In an ideal world, 343i would do their thing and they would also provide us with better tools, like an actual map creator (on top of Forge) and more Custom Game settings. The community would be able to create the Halo experience that they have always wanted and everyone would be happy. At least that's what I'd like to believe.

Honestly, I could do without an other Halo that designs the maps and the MP in general arround Sprint, Clamber and other Spartan Abilities. But I've made my peace with it and I'll just return to the (Halo) games that I actually enjoy playing, if Halo: Infinite isn't what I wanted. But I'm still looking forward to Halo: Infinite and I'm quite excited for it. Hoping for the best.

I think it is important to note the ADS in Halo 5 is cosmetic only.

That's not completely true, though. The only things that Halo 5's ADS system doesn't have is the movement and aiming punishment. Everything else is behaving exactly like your typical ADS system (obscured vision, more effective range, better accuracy, tighter bullet spread).

Also, if it's just cosmetic only, then why have it in first place? I still have the impression that this mechanic was just included to please the crowd that is familiar with this mechanic, so that Halo is more attractive to them. Would have nothing against this, if we were just given a simple toggle to choose between this and the good old zoom.

My man.
Don't forget about ODST too.

Or Brutes and the Flood.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,960
Threads like these convince me Halo can never be revivified.

People wanting Halo to play like Halo 3 want the opposite of what all of us who love Halo 5 MP enjoy about it.

If they remove the wonderful base game mechanics they created for 5 they've lost me.

Not that I don't think there's a middle ground of compromise that exists, which could maintain the flow of 5 while addressing some of the most glaring issues [like, increase base movement speed and remove sprint, but I love the spartan abilities they're glorious].

Keep the pistol a 5 headshot perfect machine, give us dev-made BTB maps, I'll be happy.


this is a sensible post.
 

Detective

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,853
343 created their messed up vision of Halo and I don't think they will ever change it.
Infinite could prove me wrong I really hope, Only time will tell.
Right now am only looking forward to the campaign.
 

Dinjoralo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,153
I don't think Infinite would return to it's roots. For the people who want that, the Master Chief Collection exists and will probably still be updated when Infinite launches.
 

Interficium

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,569
I'm not buying that "all they have to do is make a CLASSIC Halo game and we'll be back on top, bro!" argument, sorry.

Variety in Multiplayer is celebrated
Yes, it is, but at the same time the competition is fiercer than ever. You'll notice that almost all the games you mentioned, Apex Legends, Black Ops 4, Rainbow Six: Siege, Destiny 2 and Overwatch, didn't even exist during the Halo franchise's heyday, and the one that did (if you count the whole franchise), Call of Duty, promptly ate Halo's lunch after releasing the first modern iteration of the IP, Modern Warfare, and is generally considered the demarcation point of when the Halo franchise began it's decline. The other games are literally "what comes after Halo," and not considered Halo-killers like Modern Warfare was because, well Halo is already dead. The world has moved on. People who's favorite FPS was Halo 2 or 3 are likely to be the parent of one of the millions of kids playing Fortnite; how are you getting that audience re-engaged with Halo? By saying we're releasing a game that [checks notes] IS your father's Halo? Seems like a great way to keep the 3 or 4 million remaining aging hardcore Halo audience happy, but that's not a sustainable plan for the franchise and certainly not a way to get Halo back to the prior levels of success.

Sprint and ADS are not considered essential

Sprint, Bloom, ADS, etc. are all things that the Halo hardcores love to debate about but honestly mean fuck-all to your average consumer of games. The fact that the Halo hardcores are convinced that some perfect mix of these gameplay mechanics will lead to an equation that takes Halo back to the top of the FPS mountain is myopic to say the least.

The "Enhanced Mobility" trend is dead

Is it? Relative to the classic Halo games you long to return to, nearly every shooter on the market today has "enhanced mobility" right down to base walk and run speed. You use the example of Apex Legends having less movement options than Titanfall 2 as an example of enhanced mobility being dead, which is pretty fucking disingenuous considering Apex Legends still has a metric fuck-ton of movement abilities relative to Halo 1-3 including grapple, ziplines, sliding, sprint, stim packs, speed boosts under fire, jump pads, portals, etc.

"Returning to your roots" is free hype

I guess. You'll always get a small amount of that from legacy forums like Era where the audience is made up of primary 30+ year-olds and reddit, but I don't buy the DMC5 and RE2 examples here; if Halo sold what either of those two games have and will sell, it would be considered an abject failure. Projecting the success of those two titles on Halo is kind of like automatically assuming a Triple-A baseball player is automatically going to have the same kind of stats when they move to the big leagues. I wouldn't consider RE2 and DMC5 to be "niche" titles, certainly, but they're not operating in the same space that Halo is (supposively) operating in.


In conclusion, I just really think that signs point towards a Halo game made with the formula of CE-3 doing really well.

How do you define "really well"? Is it maintaining the same sales as Halo 5? Well, that's certainly reasonable, but considering that Halo 5 was an abject failure as a boxed Halo product relative to the rest of the franchise, that cratered the franchise sales graph and sold less than half of Halo 4, I'm not sure that's the bar you want to hit. Is it reaching the same peaks as Halo 3 and Reach? Somewhere around 10 million units? Less reasonable, but certainly possible, just not probable with a product strategy of "make a CLASSIC Halo game for CLASSIC Halo fans." Because that's automatically kneecapping your potential playerbase, limiting it to just the few million remaining Halo lifers who, to be honest, can't really even agree WHAT classic Halo is and as a group are completely balkanized.

Look of the landscape of games today; the big monolithic franchises are nearly gone. Your Grand Theft Autos, your Call of Duties, those are outliers now, relics of a bygone age where gamers were all too happy to buy the fifth, sixth, and seventh iterations of a variety of IPs. The last few years have been all about Overwatch ---> PUBG ----> Fornite ----> Apex Legends. See many big legacy IPs on their third, fourth, or fifth sequel in that list? The closest thing to that is Apex Legends, which deliberately tamped down on the Titanfall branding and basically stripped away MOST of what people would consider to be "must-have" features of Titanfall like a campaign, wall-running, and mechs. Yet it's a phenomenal success. With that in mind, why do you think doubling-down on an old formula that the market moved on from years ago is going to propel Halo back into the limelight?
 
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Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,635
'"Returning to your roots" is free hype '

They already used that hype for Halo 5, after how they handled Halo 4.
 

OverHeatQc

Member
Nov 5, 2018
113
Halo 5 mp is perfect to me the only thing I hate are the esthetic of the maps compare to the rest of the series
 

TemplaerDude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,204
Saying Apex Legends doesn't have the "exact same mobility as Titanfall" therefore enhanced mobility is "dead" is some serious nonsense.
 

Firima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,474
I'm all for returning Halo to it's roots as long as the Chief doesn't move slow as molasses.

Except that nine times out of ten, when people say "return to its roots" in reference to Halo, that's exactly what they mean.

It's like people actively want Halo to bomb critically and commercially.
 

elzeus

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,887
There's MCC if you want to return to Halo's roots, Halo Infinite should be bold for the sp and play it safe for the mp imo.
 

rrc1594

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,805
Sometimes I wonder have people played H3 recently? Game plays slow as fuck and the fov is garbage.
 

Complicated

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,339
I don't see a distinction between what Bungie did from CE to 2 to 3 and what 343 did from 3 to 5 since we're discounting the wild tangent Bungie took the series on with Reach. Gameplay changes in Halo 5 are definitely smaller than the changes from CE to 2 or 3. Furthermore the changes they made are pretty much all incredible and the game plays fantastically as a result.

I certainly like Spartan abillities on the whole more than I like the way dual wielding was introduced or equipment in Halo 3. Much less disruptive to the Halo sandbox and they did a waaaaay better job executing on the things they changed. Bungie straight up made some guns worthless in Halo 2 compared to the first game, and equipment kills the flow of fights just as jarringly as armor lock does it just happens less often.
 

Gearkeeper 8A

Member
Oct 27, 2017
617
Nope i want my halo 5 spartan abilities, you can remove sprint speed up base mobility and make the other abilities don't suck because aside from thruster they are mediocre and don't have much use. Another thing is expand melee options(thrown weapons ala BOTW) and the use of grenades, make guns more unique(add Jackal shields please), rebalance some vehicles and power ups (invisibility is broken), expand on reach abilities but make them single use.
 

Bessy67

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,584
I'd be fine with sprinting being gone if base movement speed is fast enough but I really liked the thruster pack. I personally would rather see them build off the gameplay of 5 and maybe return to the art style of 2 and 3.
 

ThatsMyTrunks

Mokuzai Studio
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,622
San Antonio, TX
I'd love if Halo 6 was an incremental improvement to the gameplay of Halo 3 rather than Halo 5, but the work they've done to the games in the Master Chief Collection have made it so I can play my favorite Halo game (3) in the best it's ever been, whenever I feel like it. And there's even a pretty active playerbase.

I'm glad that with whatever direction they decide to take future Halo games, they won't take away from how much I can enjoy the older Halo games.
 
OP
OP
Stowaway Silfer

Stowaway Silfer

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
32,819
Threads like these convince me Halo can never be revivified.

People wanting Halo to play like Halo 3 want the opposite of what all of us who love Halo 5 MP enjoy about it.

If they remove the wonderful base game mechanics they created for 5 they've lost me.

Not that I don't think there's a middle ground of compromise that exists, which could maintain the flow of 5 while addressing some of the most glaring issues [like, increase base movement speed and remove sprint, but I love the spartan abilities they're glorious].

Keep the pistol a 5 headshot perfect machine, give us dev-made BTB maps, I'll be happy.
I don't think there's a "middle ground" to be had because fundamentally, the games are designed differently (and actually there being a possible middle ground would reflect poorly on the features added/removed since it would mean they don't actually work together with the overall game in a symbiotic way). You couldn't just slap on a sprint feature to Halo 2 because the maps, along with plenty of other features, are made with your speed in mind and in the same way, you can't just remove spartan abilities from Halo 5 because everything from horizontal and vertical map stretching to weapon balance, aiming/magnetism and more are designed with those features in mind.
(I know Halo 5 gives you the option to disable all Spartan Abilities in Customs but that's not meant to be viable in terms of the overall design of the game)

I don't think Infinite would return to it's roots. For the people who want that, the Master Chief Collection exists and will probably still be updated when Infinite launches.
But the MCC is a collection of old games. People don't just want to play their old games, they want new games that are faithful successors to what they like. Just look at CoD: WW2 for example. It could've easily been said that the people who wanted CoD to go back to WW2 already had the older CoDs but clearly a new one was a good decision (and this is true of Doom, DMC5 and many other games that went back to their roots). Otherwise one could just as easily say that for the people who want Halo Infinite to be like Halo 5 and build on that, Halo 5 exists. It's just not a fair and compelling viewpoint to me.

Yes, it is, but at the same time the competition is fiercer than ever. You'll notice that almost all the games you mentioned, Apex Legends, Black Ops 4, Rainbow Six: Siege, Destiny 2 and Overwatch, didn't even exist during the Halo franchise's heyday, and the one that did (if you count the whole franchise), Call of Duty, promptly ate Halo's lunch after releasing the first modern iteration of the IP, Modern Warfare, and is generally considered the demarcation point of when the Halo franchise began it's decline. The other games are literally "what comes after Halo," and not considered Halo-killers like Modern Warfare was because, well Halo is already dead. The world has moved on. People who's favorite FPS was Halo 2 or 3 are likely to be the parent of one of the millions of kids playing Fortnite; how are you getting that audience re-engaged with Halo? By saying we're releasing a game that [checks notes] IS your father's Halo? Seems like a great way to keep the 3 or 4 million remaining aging hardcore Halo audience happy, but that's not a sustainable plan for the franchise and certainly not a way to get Halo back to the prior levels of success.

Actually Halo 3 did compete with Rainbow Six alongside Call of Duty. And Halo 3 had a lot of competition of its own.
Additionally, Modern Warfare didn't "eat Halo's lunch". Yearly Xbox Live Most Popular lists show that Halo 3 was the most played game in its year of release, 2007, ahead of CoD4 and remained at the top until 2010 when Halo Reach came out.
(Lists can be found here: 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010)

Yes there are games to compete with, just as there were in Halo 3's time, but the point isn't that Halo going back to its roots will convert Fortnite fans into Halo fans. The point is that variety is rewarded and franchises are doing well by focusing on their own core audiences. Another aspect that I find interesting (perhaps even moreso than the games I mentioned above) which points towards this is how a game like Warframe is doing very well by focusing on its hardcore fans and how that somehow gets new people into it (because as I said in another part, it's easy to get excited about something when the people who its targeting are passionate about it, because passion/excitement are contagious) and similarly, the Destiny 2 devs said that with the Forsaken release, the focus going forward would be on the core players that stick around after launch and even The Division 2 is doing something similar with an "Endgame-First" approach to its design. Games are rewarded for trying to build and satisfy their own audiences rather than poach from others and the number of games that succeed with that approach is why I say that variety is rewarded. Hell even Halo 5 which isn't quite as Halo as many would want it to be and also not where Halo 3 was still ended up doing better than Halo 4 in terms of longevity (source) because it's much more of a Halo game than 4 ever was.

Sprint, Bloom, ADS, etc. are all things that the Halo hardcores love to debate about but honestly mean fuck-all to your average consumer of games. The fact that the Halo hardcores are convinced that some perfect mix of these gameplay mechanics will lead to an equation that takes Halo back to the top of the FPS mountain is myopic to say the least.
If the absence of those feature is something that core players would be positive towards and "average consumers" are indifferent to, then what's the negative with removing them them?

Also, I don't mean this disrespectfully and apologize if it comes off that way but if you're quoting my post, I'd like you reply to my post rather than to imaginary participants of prior debates. Because my point wasn't that the removal of those additions would put Halo at the top of the FPS mountain, merely than the landscape doesn't seem punishing of games without those features, which goes against something that has served as a defense for the inclusion of those features in Halo.

Is it? Relative to the classic Halo games you long to return to, nearly every shooter on the market today has "enhanced mobility" right down to base walk and run speed. You use the example of Apex Legends having less movement options than Titanfall 2 as an example of enhanced mobility being dead, which is pretty fucking disingenuous considering Apex Legends still has a metric fuck-ton of movement abilities relative to Halo 1-3 including grapple, ziplines, sliding, sprint, stim packs, speed boosts under fire, jump pads, portals, etc.

Sure but the point of "enhanced mobility" isn't "enhanced relative to some other random game", it's "enhanced relative to the games that came before". That's why in CoD terms, it was going from the pre-Ghost stuff to the post-Ghost/pre-WW2 stuff and why in Halo it was going from CE-3 to Reach-5 (and in the case of Titanfall, I suppose it was TF relative to Modern Warfare since that's what those devs worked on). When CoD fans were asking for boots on the ground, they weren't asking for it in the Halo sense, they were asking for it in the sense of what they had been used to and I'm using the term with Halo in relation to Halo. Otherwise even Halo 5's enhanced mobility is primitive compared to Titanfall but that doesn't matter because that was never the point.

I guess. You'll always get a small amount of that from legacy forums like Era where the audience is made up of primary 30+ year-olds and reddit, but I don't buy the DMC5 and RE2 examples here; if Halo sold what either of those two games have and will sell, it would be considered an abject failure. Projecting the success of those two titles on Halo is kind of like automatically assuming a Triple-A baseball player is automatically going to have the same kind of stats when they move to the big leagues. I wouldn't consider RE2 and DMC5 to be "niche" titles, certainly, but they're not operating in the same space that Halo is (supposively) operating in.
Again, it's not about Halo doing something relative to something else, in this case sales success. It's about Halo selling well relative to Halo expectations by going back to its roots, just like CoD, DMC, RE2 and other games sold well relative to their respective expectations by going back to their respective roots.
How do you define "really well"? Is it maintaining the same sales as Halo 5? Well, that's certainly reasonable, but considering that Halo 5 was an abject failure as a boxed Halo product relative to the rest of the franchise, that cratered the franchise sales graph and sold less than half of Halo 4, I'm not sure that's the bar you want to hit. Is it reaching the same peaks as Halo 3 and Reach? Somewhere around 10 million units? Less reasonable, but certainly possible, just not probable with a product strategy of "make a CLASSIC Halo game for CLASSIC Halo fans." Because that's automatically kneecapping your potential playerbase, limiting it to just the few million remaining Halo lifers who, to be honest, can't really even agree WHAT classic Halo is and as a group are completely balkanized.

Look of the landscape of games today; the big monolithic franchises are nearly gone. Your Grand Theft Autos, your Call of Duties, those are outliers now, relics of a bygone age where gamers were all too happy to buy the fifth, sixth, and seventh iterations of a variety of IPs. The last few years have been all about Overwatch ---> PUBG ----> Fornite ----> Apex Legends. See many big legacy IPs on their third, fourth, or fifth sequel in that list? The closest thing to that is Apex Legends, which deliberately tamped down on the Titanfall branding and basically stripped away MOST of what people would consider to be "must-have" features of Titanfall like a campaign, wall-running, and mechs. Yet it's a phenomenal success. With that in mind, why do you think doubling-down on an old formula that the market moved on from years ago is going to propel Halo back into the limelight?
I define "really well" as Microsoft and 343 being happy with the results financially and the community being happy with the results in terms of how active it is, how populated the game is, etc.

I don't see a distinction between what Bungie did from CE to 2 to 3 and what 343 did from 3 to 5 since we're discounting the wild tangent Bungie took the series on with Reach. Gameplay changes in Halo 5 are definitely smaller than the changes from CE to 2 or 3. Furthermore the changes they made are pretty much all incredible and the game plays fantastically as a result.

The distinction in the innovation method from Halo CE to 3 and with Reach/4/5 is , as said above, the games in the original formula were different from each other by adding things to their sandbox (weapons, vehicles, tools, map elements, any thing players interacted with) while keeping the base mechanics the same (you run, jump, shoot, throw grenades, punch, pilot vehicles). Whereas Reach/4/5 all added to the base mechanics themselves (you run even faster at the cost of lowering your guard, you climb, you dodge roll/evade, hover, etc.), in addition to changing the sandbox.
 

Deleted member 51848

Jan 10, 2019
1,408
I would focus on evolving the combat. I haven't played the original in a long time but I always remember how I felt about the enemies, how they would flank me, how they seemed intelligent.
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,489
I think it is important to note the ADS in Halo 5 is cosmetic only.
It's not cosmetic only and even if it were, putting it on every weapon is inevitably going to alter player behavior.
I don't like it, I wish it were gone and I still constantly catch myself using it because it's ubiquitous in those games and it will always give the impression of increased range and accuracy.
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
Keep halo 5 movement. Just a few tweaks. I really just don't like that maps were designed specifically with clambering in mind. I like clambering but it really felt they went out of their way to make simple jumps impossible without grabbing a ledge.