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Why fun movement matters in game design. Good twitter thread on the topic.
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Halo's movement is actually a good example of a game that understands what works for the sort of game it is, and the movement empowers the player in that manner.
It's why sprint existing at all is such a lightningrod topic in the community.
With me it's more a case of the gameplay is built so closely around them that they'd feel bad to play without them. Like, I prefer Tomb Raider Anniversary to the original because it's fully designed to be 3D, and Jade Cocoon used both and obviously full 3D movement felt better , but REmake HD proves how goofy full 3D movement in a game that uses and is designed around tank controls can be, and it absolutely ruins the game.
That being said, the classic 5 Tomb Raiders all control better than the new trilogy from a movement point of view. The only awkward movement things they have are timed runs through narrow, twisty corridors.
Agree. If movement feels slow or sluggish I usually have trouble getting into it. I can play Warframe for hours at a time despite how grindy it is because of how satisfying it is to fly around in it.
And yet people seem to forget that RDR2 has the best and most in depth horse riding to date.
there's a reason why the re games don't have tank controls anymore though
Yeah. I had some serious issues with Odyssey, but the sense of movement alone made it worth playing. It controls better than any other 3D platformer out there. I feel the level design is not as great as some past games, but it is never not fun to play.
This is basically why I really disliked the Mutant Mudds demo, personally. The game got a lot of praise, but the character just felt way too slow for me for a platformer.
I really like imagining the team not wanting to advance into level design until they nail that down. Feels like something the Castlevania teams would do as well.
Would games like Fatal Frame 2 and 4 on the Wii count as Tank Controls? The camera is fixed on your back so you always face what's ahead of you, but you get a really good range of movement thanks to the camera being tied to the pointer, from what I remember.
I really like imagining the team not wanting to advance into level design until they nail that down. Feels like something the Castlevania teams would do as well.
Tank controls were fine in PC games where the camera is fixed to be behind your character (AND allow you to do a quick 180Âş turn) since it allowed for precision platforming or aiming. The problem comes when they force them in games where the camera changes depending on where you are. Those cameras only really work well with pointer controls.
Would games like Fatal Frame 2 and 4 on the Wii count as Tank Controls? The camera is fixed on your back so you always face what's ahead of you, but you get a really good range of movement thanks to the camera being tied to the pointer, from what I remember.
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While it doesn't make or break a game for me (I enjoyed RDR2 and movement in that wasn't particularly fun), it certainly adds to the gameplay. One of the things I liked about Xenoblade X was jumping all over the place and being able to drop from incredible heights without taking fall damage, then you add in the Skells and flying everywhere. 3D Mario games are such a joy to run around in, and with games like that I sometimes have sessions where I accomplish little to nothing and just run around for fun.
It's mainly on foot where it feels clunky. Like I can accept that the horse does not react immediately and it does have a good amount of control over it, but when you are on foot it should not feel like you are controlling an animal. Higher framerate helps a lot but it still never feels like you are 100% in control. I feel games like Uncharted 4 and TLOU2 hit a far better balance for animation vs control.
Lone Echo comes to mind. I still think it's the greatest movement system devised in a video game because it invokes the most feeling. It's the kind of thing that NASA would definitely use.
I'm always on the lookout for good movement systems.
I'm always on the lookout for good movement systems.
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Mario and Nintendo games in general, are obviously the kings, but a game I think feels "Nintendo-like" is Dead Cells. Just running around double jumping, rolling, climbing walls, smashing the floor...is incredibly smooth and makes the game a joy to play.
It's also my biggest gripe with Dark Souls games. The realist movement feels great during combat, but sucks everywhere else and FROM's insistence in forcing you through platforming sections with such crappy controls only makes it worse. Sekiro is a huge step in the right direction with platform border detection but it still could be much better. I really hope DS games got more flak for this, IMHO it's one of the most glaring occassions where Souls games hide some bad design decissions behind the games' supposed difficulty.
It's also my biggest gripe with Dark Souls games. The realist movement feels great during combat, but sucks everywhere else and FROM's insistence in forcing you through platforming sections with such crappy controls only makes it worse. Sekiro is a huge step in the right direction with platform border detection but it still could be much better. I really hope DS games got more flak for this, IMHO it's one of the most glaring occassions where Souls games hide some bad design decissions behind the games' supposed difficulty.
That's a very good one indeed!
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I've only played the first one, and that with the play tests. I agree. The squid paint mechanic is very fun.
Sakurai is also very good with this. The Smash Games--Brawl notwithstanding, all feel really good. Purists say Melee is still unmatched in this area.
Sekiro is the best example IMO. It's such a joy to control Wolf and just move around. The movement speed, the responsive controls, the hopping from rooftop to rooftop with the grappling hook, it's just plain fun even without considering the combat.
I played RE2make shortly after a Sekiro replay and it was excruciating. Yes, different games and genres, but it still impeded my enjoyment to see Claire run so slooooooooowly. I felt like I was constantly mired in molasses. Meanwhile, a game like TLoU2 retains the survival horror aspect without compromising movement quality so much, so I don't buy the "oh it's meant to be like that because of the genre" excuse. Hell even Souls games, which are meant to be methodical, stamina-limited, etc. still feel good and responsive to move around.
Other recent-ish games that are elevated by the sheer joy of moving around: Nioh 1 and 2, Ori 2, Gravity Rush, Ghost of Tsushima
I played RE2make shortly after a Sekiro replay and it was excruciating. Yes, different games and genres, but it still impeded my enjoyment to see Claire run so slooooooooowly. I felt like I was constantly mired in molasses. Meanwhile, a game like TLoU2 retains the survival horror aspect without compromising movement quality so much, so I don't buy the "oh it's meant to be like that because of the genre" excuse. Hell even Souls games, which are meant to be methodical, stamina-limited, etc. still feel good and responsive to move around.
Other recent-ish games that are elevated by the sheer joy of moving around: Nioh 1 and 2, Ori 2, Gravity Rush, Ghost of Tsushima
You really think that TLOU and RE2 are aiming for the same kind of experience? RE2's limited movement is a core part of its design, if you put TLOU 2's movement into it, the game would straight up break. In fact, even RE3's movement would break what makes RE2 so special for so many people, despite being largely similiar with a few additions. Imagine if you could just hit the dodge button when Mr X is chasing you. It would remove all tension right there and then.
TLOU 2 is also faaaar more action driven than RE2. It also has you trek across an entire city back and forth multiple times, whereas RE2 is basically mostly just exploring a building.
Es
Sekiro is a huge improvement for souls games, but the camera still makes the experience clunky as hell when you're not running outside or there aren't close walls.
I know. It's still a slog to play. 🤷‍♀️ If you give Claire a dodge button you could just make Mr. X stronger or whatever, for instance.
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Sekiro really does feel like an agile shinobi that he is. Great movement.
Just as people forget that GTA 5's driving is absolutely amazing especially compared to all the non racing focused open world games where the driving is mostly garbage or mediocre at best. I mean one of the main pulls of GTA online is racing - there is a good reason for that, its secretly the best straight up arcade racer we had this gen, but since GTAO is a forbidden word around here, very few played it.
Sure, from a gameplay standpoint that'd be balanced but it would totally change the atmosphere. The feeling of being cornered and helpless is what makes Mr X so scary for so many people.
I don't believe sluggish movement is necessary to achieve this effect, especially in a game that otherwise does have actual action combat too.
Then again I didn't like the implementation of Mr. X much tbh, that shit was tedious and not fun, not even scary beyond the first time, just annoying 🤷‍♀️
Yup, Shadow of the Colossus is a good example. A lot of people complain about the movement and controls, but the game would be far worse if you could zip around and double jump or whatever. The clumsiness is the point. Dark Souls also. I love the way that game feels, it's also "clunky". Dark Souls 3 lost a lot when it tried to make its movement and pace like Bloodborne.
Yeah, on-foot stuff with high gravity isn't great. It's a relatively small portion of the game though. I like the low/zero G movement, and the spaceship controls are good fun.
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I'll disagree with Dark Souls. Dark Souls has some amazing movement. The dodge mechanic is extremely precise for example. You can also dash.
And the latter Souls games DS3 and BB are a joy and butter smooth.
Spider-man all day here.
Only open world game I didn't want to use fast travel because moving around is such a blast.
Only open world game I didn't want to use fast travel because moving around is such a blast.
Already edited my post, I found the slow clunky movement of medium/heavy armor in the original game to be a blast. Not a lot of games had movement like that. And it's why I didn't enjoy DS3 as much because it tried to be Bloodborne.
And Bloodborne is amazing but for different reasons than Dark Souls.
What about jumping? That's very clunky, or the camera behavior inside rooms.
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It's a shame a lot of game designers don't seem to agree. A lot of AAA games seem to take the approach of "well new players won't be able to do it so we should patch it out". It's really frustrating as I love games with fun movement mechanics and yet a lot of games seem to be going away from fluid and faster movement in favor of slower and more deliberate movement.
God, I agree with this so hard. Like I've mentioned numerous times before, I still haven't beaten Red Dead Redemption 2 because the game is such a chore to play. Controlling Arthur is so damn frustrating that I tune out after about 30 minutes to an hour.
On the flip side, a game like Ghost of Tsushima, or Nier: Automata I'll play for hours because moving around the world feels so good.
Game feel is so fucking important, and it's disappointing when a developer sacrifices control for "teh realism though, guyz!" Its a video game. Interactive entertainment. The interactive part should be paramount, and the method of interactivity should be intuitive and melt into the background. That is to say, you shouldn't even be thinking about the controls, because they're so well implemented you're too busy being engaged by the experience to worry about them.
That shouldn't be confused with "learning curve," which is a different aspect of game control. When starting a game, of course it's all about learning the gameplay systems and mechanics, but again, intuitive and tight controls will make that process go smoother.
I'm currently trying to navigate that process prototyping my game in Dreams. I hope to nail the control scheme as early as possible, so everything else about the game design falls into place.
On the flip side, a game like Ghost of Tsushima, or Nier: Automata I'll play for hours because moving around the world feels so good.
Game feel is so fucking important, and it's disappointing when a developer sacrifices control for "teh realism though, guyz!" Its a video game. Interactive entertainment. The interactive part should be paramount, and the method of interactivity should be intuitive and melt into the background. That is to say, you shouldn't even be thinking about the controls, because they're so well implemented you're too busy being engaged by the experience to worry about them.
That shouldn't be confused with "learning curve," which is a different aspect of game control. When starting a game, of course it's all about learning the gameplay systems and mechanics, but again, intuitive and tight controls will make that process go smoother.
I'm currently trying to navigate that process prototyping my game in Dreams. I hope to nail the control scheme as early as possible, so everything else about the game design falls into place.
Did a search and only found one mention of Destiny?!
This is one of the reason that even with all its flaws Destiny is a good game and has been successful. The gameplay feels so damn good, jumping, platforming, gunplay all feel so good even when you are in a repetitive task.
Another game I recall being amazing and fun with the movement was the original Prototype. In that game, once you got enough upgrades, you just owned moving along the game. I wish more games would make you feel this good about running around the open world and causing mayhem. It feels even better than Spider-Man and all the amazing swinging.
Now on a more different note I think there is a game franchise that would benefit so much from making movement more fun and adding just one off activities to compliment this: Assassins Creed. The more recent games, Origins and Odyssey, were so beautiful and so good but even with the improvements done to the combat there is just something so mechanical about that movement of the characters in most scenarios. Ghost of Tsushima, a game I compare a lot to AC, had the right idea with the fluid combat and some of its traversal options. I just think that if the AC games improved how combat and movement feels and made it more natural and less mechanical it would put that franchise over the top and make it not just good, but amazing like the original idea for the games seemed to be.
This is one of the reason that even with all its flaws Destiny is a good game and has been successful. The gameplay feels so damn good, jumping, platforming, gunplay all feel so good even when you are in a repetitive task.
Another game I recall being amazing and fun with the movement was the original Prototype. In that game, once you got enough upgrades, you just owned moving along the game. I wish more games would make you feel this good about running around the open world and causing mayhem. It feels even better than Spider-Man and all the amazing swinging.
Now on a more different note I think there is a game franchise that would benefit so much from making movement more fun and adding just one off activities to compliment this: Assassins Creed. The more recent games, Origins and Odyssey, were so beautiful and so good but even with the improvements done to the combat there is just something so mechanical about that movement of the characters in most scenarios. Ghost of Tsushima, a game I compare a lot to AC, had the right idea with the fluid combat and some of its traversal options. I just think that if the AC games improved how combat and movement feels and made it more natural and less mechanical it would put that franchise over the top and make it not just good, but amazing like the original idea for the games seemed to be.
That doesn't justify the clunky collisions and controls you're forced to experience whenever the game tries to put you through some kind of platforming section, specially when the floor is irregular, like the branches in the Great Hollow. But apart from that, the camera is absolutely horrendous and that has nothing to do with the game trying to be grounded: it's just bad and by no means should be brought up in a thread about games with fun movement. There are a lot of games that do a lot of stuff like offering addiitonal resistance when the player approaches a border so he only falls if he really goes for it, coyote time, inventive camera systems so the action is always well focused...But Souls games just do the bare minimum to have a functional movement system and that's not worthy of any praise. Even something so simple at first sight like Mario or Meat Boy has a million hacks to try interpret what the player is trying to do and respond appropiately, while Souls games just get the inputs and translate them into raw actions with no additional effort. It works for the combat system (whenever you're not close to a wall, that is) but not for anything else.
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What? Halo did movement better than any FPS of its time.
You're right, being able to move around the 3D space omnidirectionally while aiming and shooting freely combined with its high jumping, lower gravity and great map design makes Halo the king. You can navigate classic maps completely backward or sideways without wasting time and movement.
Yeah it's really important and I think it's the biggest reason I fell off Horizon Zero Dawn after playing Botw. I was enjoying Horizon well enough before the release of Zelda but when I went back to it after playing with the movement options given to the player in Zelda I found it to be a chore to get around the world and just never was able to get back into it.
Fun movement is my favorite part of video games. Tbh that's part of why I dislike Mario 64, moving just feels really stiff and clunky in that game.
For real. As soon as I moved Wolf he just felt so light while also having super tight controls. My first thought was "From really nailed this".
They even nailed underwater movement.
We spent a lot of time messing with movement & animation values on Cosmic Star Heroine to try to make movement as good as it is in Chrono Trigger.
It all depends on what a game is going for, I appreciate the more realistic movement in Rockstar games like RDR2, the skeletal animation systems going on in there look so natural and by extension helps immerse me further into the whole "outlaw sim" they're trying to achieve.
That said I definitely love something as twitch precise and responsive as Super Meat Boy's moveset, I never got tired of doing wall jumps and building up momentum when trying to get through a level.
The Hitman series strikes a great balance between the two, it isn't lumbering but feels methodical and depending on your skill level and reflexes you can do some pretty crazy shit in a short time frame.
That said I definitely love something as twitch precise and responsive as Super Meat Boy's moveset, I never got tired of doing wall jumps and building up momentum when trying to get through a level.
The Hitman series strikes a great balance between the two, it isn't lumbering but feels methodical and depending on your skill level and reflexes you can do some pretty crazy shit in a short time frame.
It really depends on the type of game. Some genres require fun movement to be fun. Other genres or type of game can still be fantastic even if the movement isn't so great.