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BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,007
I've seen this brought up here and there, especially from people trying do deflect from the sheer ridiculousness of the Kingdom Hearts series, the idea that the Metal Gear Solid series are needlessly complicated that requires you to play every game in the series. Now, I've played every Metal Gear/Metal Gear Solid game (except the Acid series) and just don't understand how someone can get to this conclusion. The only game in the series that is needlessly convoluted is Metal Gear Solid 4, which we'll get into why that is shortly. But, let's break it down:

Metal Gear 1 & Metal Gear 2 (MSX): Old ass games from the bit era, they start Solid Snake and is your first introduction into the character as well as Big Boss, Gray Fox, FOXHOUND, Master Miller, and Metal Gear itself. However, the story is rather short, could be learned from a wiki, and is entirely skippable because of the next game in the series.

Metal Gear Solid (PS1): The first in the Solid series, signifying the series jump to 3D. And, is the introduction to the series for the majority of players. Due to this fact, the game spends plenty of time catching you up on the story from the past two MSX games, it assumes people are unfamiliar with them and weaves Snake's backstory into the narrative. The game is also basically a remake of Metal Gear 2 with characters swapped out. You don't need to play any prior game to understand its story or characters, it's all right there in the game. It's also a straightforward military/espionage story. Nothing truly complicated. The only game with as "clean" a narrative is MGS3.

Metal Gear Solid 2 (PS2): The sequel to MGS1, but while playing the previous game will greatly enhance the story, it's not a necessity. The game starts with Solid Snake, immediately catches the player up with who he is and what he's done since MGS1, and then proceeds to shuffle him to the side so the player can play a brand new character for the majority of the game. MGS2's star is Raiden and his story requires no knowledge of MGS1. Now, the meta-narrative is enriched by playing MGS1 as you come to understand what's going on. But, it's not required. Everything you need to know about MGS2 is explained in the game. The story itself is quite complicated, but it doesn't require outside knowledge. This is the game where MGS began to earn the meme of being "convoluted."

Metal Gear Solid 3 (PS2):
Is a prequel to all other games and stars a new character, "Big Boss/Naked Snake." Absolutely no knowledge is needed of any prior game as it takes place before all of them. It's also a fairly direct story without a whole lot of weird twists or turns. It's about as "complicated" as a Bond film.

Metal Gear Solid 4 (PS3): The actually convoluted game. The wrap up to Solid Snake's journey that feels the need to reference every other game, including the MSX titles, tie all of them together, while at the same time being a sequel to game whose very narrative precludes the idea of a sequel being possible. One of the main reasons MGS4 is so convoluted is because MGS2 is a game that questions reality itself, it questions whether anything that happened in the game is real and has intentional inconsistencies in its narrative. How did Peter Stillman help you when Fatman said he died months ago? How did Snake escape the Tanker? How does Raiden not recognize the former President of the United States? MGS4 "solves" this by making everything that happened in MGS2 reality, even the inconsistencies. The result is a complicated narrative that is hard to make sense of even if you played all the games.

Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops (PSP): Again, a prequel to every game except MGS3. While prior knowledge of MGS3 is helpful, it's not required. The game is very much an isolated incident and catches you immediately up to speed on the core details. Simple and Clean narrative. Again, a straight-forward military/espionage story.

Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker (PS Vita): Another prequel starring Big Boss, also very Simple and Clean. Again, knowledge of MGS3 is helpful, but not required. The game goes to great lengths to explain to the player BB's backstory regarding MGS3. And, it pretends that Portable Ops doesn't exist. An easily understood narrative that is, once again, pretty straightforward.

Metal Gear Solid V (PS4/Xbone/PC): Is an actually complicated story, but not because it mandates knowledge from past games, but simply because the narrative is unfinished and what's there is poorly told. It don't matter if you've played every game, the story still doesn't make a whole lot of sense or conclude in a satisfying manner. Not a straight-forward narrative, a mess in every regard.

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So, from that list only two games could be said to require prior game knowledge, MGS4 and MGSV. They are also the games with the worst narratives. And, of all the games listed, the individual narratives themselves are all relatively straight-forward, save MGS4 and MGSV. They aren't impossibly dense or hard to follow, they are mostly straight forward military-espionage thrillers. Thus, has MGS as a series earned its perceived reputation of being a truly convoluted series?
 

Corky

Alt account
Banned
Dec 5, 2018
2,479
it's more about how it's told rather than the actual plot.
 

Deleted member 51266

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 26, 2018
278
When people talk about MGS having a dumb, overly convoluted, badly written plot I always assumed they were talking about 4 and V anyway.
 

cvbas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,167
Brazil
It's a bit messy at parts and the release order being different from the chronological order doesn't help, but I agree with you. Only because it's a bit more complex than most videogame narratives people act like it's the most convoluted thing ever written while it's actually pretty easy to follow.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,749
Yeah, it's mostly 4 and V that are convoluted.

The other games are STUPID, but generally pretty straightforward. And I say that as a big fan of the series - MGS is real dumb, and that's just fine.
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
They're a series of games with a overarching interconnecting story all released years apart and not told in chronological order.

People aren't exactly pretending to be confused. It got the reputation for being convoluted by confusing people. People have that issue with mgs but not with other games for a reason.

It's cool that you had no trouble following it, neither did I if I'm being honest. But I don't get why you're trying to call out people who did. Like, what's the goal here?
 

CelestialAtom

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,049
I adore the Metal Gear story arch, but 4 & V didn't do the franchise justice. MGS1, 3, Portable Ops & Peace Walker will always have a special place in my heart for great stories.
 

Deleted member 2317

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,072
NextScaredDuckling-max-1mb.gif


When people talk about MGS having a dumb, overly convoluted, badly written plot I always assumed they were talking about 4 and V anyway.
The second game introduces a villian controlled and influenced by a zombie hand of the past game's villain (your twin clone brother) grafted on to be controlled by an unnamed shadow group bent on world domination.

Oh, and a genetic vampire.
 

GeminiX7

Member
Feb 6, 2019
600
It's a non-linear storyline that has alot of jargon with major plotlines being divulged during spinoff games and across more than a half dozen consoles. It deserves the "convoluted" description, but that doesn't exactly mean that it's bad. Kingdom Hearts has the same issue, but I don't consider it bad either(worse than MGS though)
 

hussien-11

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,315
Jordan
I don't like "labeling" anything with one word to be honest. MGS is a series that pushed boundaries in video games storytelling and proved that video games can rival any media form out there. look at how much it inspired the biggest developers out there.
it has its weaknesses, but isn't it the case for anything in life.
 

AlanOC91

Owner of YGOPRODeck.com
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
961
NextScaredDuckling-max-1mb.gif



The second game introduces a villian controlled and influenced by a zombie hand of the past game's villain (your twin clone brother) grafted on to be controlled by an unnamed shadow group bent on world domination.

Yep, exactly for these reasons. I can only think of Kingdom Hearts that has a more convoluted story.
 

sheaaaa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,556
I hate the idea that people are "acting like" this series or that is convoluted, like they're pretending in order to disparage something you like. Maybe people just find these fucking games confusing.
 

Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,155
Washington
You say that as some one who has played all the games. When you totally understand something it is hard to understand why others don't so that's probably why you don't see it (there is a reason why they say people who can do and people who can't, teach. You are a better teacher when you can understand why some one doesn't understand something. if it came easy to you you'll have a harder time trying to figure out how to explain it to some one who it doesn't come easy to). As some one who has only played 5 and a little of 2, I gave up on understanding the story a long time ago and just enjoying the gameplay. They are not really all that standalone.
 

ckareset

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Feb 2, 2018
4,977
I swear someone made the same thread about Kingdom Hearts and got laughed at. And rightfully so.

You literally named a bunch of convoluted nonsense in your op but then brushed it off as if it was normal.
 

FreeMufasa

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,375
I don't know if it's convoluted but from what I played of MGS4, It was cringe at hell. And not in a funny Platinum Games kinda way, just straight corny
 

Doggg

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Nov 17, 2017
14,462
I have no idea how I'd try to summarize the series to someone completely unfamiliar with it.
 

Truly Gargantuan

Still doesn't have a tag :'(
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,034
The original trilogy isn't too convoluted, but once you start throwing in 4 and the other Big Boss games (PortOPs, PW, GZ, V) then it can get a little easy to lose the plot. It
 

Shoe

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,184
Good luck concisely summarizing the plot and message of MGS2, let alone the newer ones.
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
I don't think it matters because I've always focused on the gameplay but the narrative that connects these games is largely a muddled, silly mess.
 

Deleted member 7450

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,842
I'll make a headcanon and accept MGS3 as the only one in the series.

Metal Gear Solid: Snake Eater, done, no other stories after that.
 

Jangowuzhere

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,505
It's poorly told, not convoluted.

You mention V as the only one that's poorly told, but it's the same as all the other Metal Gear games. Lots of overly long expository dialogue and scenes that should be half the length they should be. The only difference is that V puts all that stuff on optional tapes, while the other MGS games force it upon you.
 

RROCKMAN

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,824
What I dont get are people who are severly downplaying the convolution of a series that has at least three major plot twists per game. Do that multiple times and tie them all together you have a convoluted franchise.

Never you mind the constant retconing to set up said plot twists, (Dr. Clark was said to be a man for a significant part of the franchise for one)

Never you mind the quadruple(sextuple? I lost count) agent this whole series essentially revolves around.

Never you mind that the 5th game was primarily set up to explain why you were able to kill the same guy twice in those games that you said were entirely skippable (which to be quite frank, they arent.)

Like its not KH bad, but its still bad!
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,789
Being a narrative mess and being able to sneak up on enemies without needed to fully understand said mess are different things. The latter is true but the plot is still a convoluted dumpster fire.
 

Deleted member 28461

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,830
I don't think it matters because I've always focused on the gameplay but the narrative that connects these games is largely a muddled, silly mess.
I'm the exact opposite. Aside from V, I'm not fond of the gameplay in the mainline MGS games. I always end the game with a huge body count, because my attempts at stealth usually end in me having to mow down a few enemies. The story and cutscenes are the reason I have replayed 2 and 3 so many times.

I just wrapped up my 5th playthrough of MGS2 a few days ago. Immediately jumped into MGS3 once I did. I'm playing on easy this time, because I just want to enjoy the insanity of them.
 

Torpedo Vegas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,644
Parts Unknown.
I remember moments from each game, but I couldn't tell you what the overarching story of the series is.

I finished them all but 3 and didn't play either of the PSP or Vita games.
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,120
Chesire, UK
Revolver Ocelot. Real name Adamska, sometimes shortened to Adam, AKA ADAM, AKA Shalashaska.

The MGS series covers Ocelot's entire life, and all the twists and turns in it, and that's why it is considered convoluted. This single character is emblematic of the storytelling malaise that coats the entirety of Metal Gear.
 

Big G

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,605
So many unnecessary twists and turns that mostly amount to "so-and-so was really this person all along"/"this character was actually this other character's son"/etc.

As crazy as MGS2's plot was, the story started to lose me with MGS3 and how Kojima became obsessed with connecting every character to each other and making sure that every little detail got explained. MGS4's story was an incomprehensible mess and little of it was redeeming in any way.

Basically, MGS is a whole lot of this:

tenor.gif
 

chandoog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,071
The ending of 2. Most of 4, a bunch of V (guy is so angry he stays alive after being killed) and some elements of 3 (bee man) are pretty damn convoluted.
 

Deleted member 28461

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,830
Revolver Ocelot. Real name Adamska, sometimes shortened to Adam, AKA ADAM, AKA Shalashaska.

The MGS series covers Ocelot's entire life, and all the twists and turns in it, and that's why it is considered convoluted. This single character is emblematic of the storytelling malaise that coats the entirety of Metal Gear.
tenor.gif
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,254
NextScaredDuckling-max-1mb.gif



The second game introduces a villian controlled and influenced by a zombie hand of the past game's villain (your twin clone brother) grafted on to be controlled by an unnamed shadow group bent on world domination.

Oh, and a genetic vampire.

And concludes in everything you've done having seemingly been a "Solid Snake Simulation" - i.e. everything that happened perfectly mirrored the Shadow Moses incident - but actually was the Selection for Societal Sanity, a test scenario on how an AI on a huge-ass submarine would be able to control the flow of information on the internet.
It's like recreating the Mona Lisa in meticulous detail just to see if your new formula for paint thinner really gets those paint brush bristles clean.
They went through an amazing effort to create a scenario that replicates what happened on Shadow Moses, such that even Ocelot was led to believe the simulation was the actual purpose, only to be like "Zing! we just needed a trial run for our AI" . That's like a meta-commentary of how convoluted the story is.

(Also, the President of the United states is a perfect clone of Big Boss.)
 
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Wetalo

Member
Feb 9, 2018
724
Are you seriously claiming the entire ending of 2 is not convoluted?

Or the ending of 4? The role The Boss, Zero, The Patriots, The Philosophers, and GI all played in rendering a world in which everything is ran by an AI that intentionally makes wars to keep the economy running?

In which Big Boss was revived by storing his mind in nanomachines and then using Solidus Snake's body to inject his mind into it and revive him?

And then he kills Zero at the end for literally no reason?

YOU'RE SAYING THAT PLOT IS NOT CONVOLUTED? OK THEN
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,722
1 and 3 are very straightforward in their main plots. 2 can get complex with the meta narrative going on and how surreal it gets near the end but the main plot is still pretty straightforward.

The 1st three games are good at standing alone with their main plots for the most part, it's when you try to connect them all like through the character of Ocelot that things get convoluted.
 

StreamedHams

Member
Nov 21, 2017
4,324
If you weren't around to play the games as they were released, you're missing out on the years simply not having a complete picture.
Not knowing who the Patriots were, who the La Li Lu Le Lo were, how the hell Big Boss in MG2 was still alive after being killed in MG, how the hell Big Boss was still alive at the end of 4,
how Big Boss even became a douche (point of view-wise) after he was revered as the greatest soldier of all time.

Without the massive gaps in time to postulate that, when all of the information is available on a wiki, it loses some of its mystique, but that doesn't mean it's not convoluted. Just look at the chronological release versus the canon timeline...shit's all over the place.
 

Torpedo Vegas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,644
Parts Unknown.
What the hell was with the part in MGS2 where the Colonel breaks the 4th wall and tells me I've been playing this game too much and don't I have better things to do with my time?
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
I expects more from the audience than Marvel/Star Wars/Game of Thrones/the Walking Dead.

I can't even begin to understand what point you're trying to make here.

Kojima isn't Pynchon, Joyce or Cormac McCarthy; his writing isn't some profound, nuanced and cerebral prose that requires a person to decode subtext. He writes overly convoluted narratives filled with laborious exposition, overreaching, heavy-handed messaging that borders on leaden and populates his work with characters that range from compelling to outright embarrassing.

I love his games and appreciate his penchant for narrative but his writing isn't challenging because it's intelligent, it's challenging because it's messy, scattered, labyrinthine and a slog to get through. (At least for me)