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DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,338
At my uni, there was an anti semitic incident of someone hacking a zoom and putting racist/nazi imagery. I talked to someone from my uni and they were against punching nazis as they said it makes them more concrete in their beliefs and we should have a dialogue peacefully to not ostracize them and change and hitting them reduces us to cavemen. I find it silly as human rights are not something we should debate and nazis don't deserve a platform. Nazism is inherently violent and talking to them is naive. So why do folks think this works?
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,647
Brazil
"if people think punching people who do wrong things is acceptable one day i might do one wrong thing without knowing and people will punch me"
 

Deleted member 3082

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,099
8mj5bRH.jpg


So why do folks think this works?

Because they think that being tolerant of intolerance makes them more open minded and better. Like you said, they're naive.
 

Sensei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,505
because we have to share the world with them

its like you live in a college dorm with a shitty roommate and they make a mess, and the filth, stench, and cockroaches spill over into your side of the room no matter how clean you are on your side. essentially, somebody has to talk them down somehow or they ruin existence for everyone else
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,432
Decorum.

Everyone knows someone that's aggressively right wing, but at the end of the day, all people want to do is be able to go to the bbq/office/dentist/car repair shop/pastry/carniera and have a pleasant time. It's a lot easier to just ignore or downplay someone's bad behavior if it means I don't have to worry about what goes on in my everyday life.

It's why Democrats refuse to get tough with republicans, even when the GOP is on some actual life ending, long term consequence bullshit.

Because they think that being tolerant of intolerance makes them more open minded and better. Like you said, they're naive.

I don't think they actually believe that. It's because they're lazy and don't want to be bothered.
 

Jedi2016

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,623
It's helpful to get their attention, so they're facing you when you punch them.
 

CrazyDude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,728
As we all know, WW2 was won by talking with the Nazis and everybody lived happily ever after.
 

fick

Alt-Account
Banned
Nov 24, 2018
2,261
My parents literally just told me to go watch some dumb Jeep ad called The Middle.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,297
new jersey
I have no problems with trying to help people realize their insane beliefs are wrong. But it has to come from them, not from me. It's happened before -- look at Daryl Davis' work with former KKK members. But I'm not going to 'respect' or 'tolerate' a nazi's ideas that is based on killing other people because of their skin color or religion. That's insanity.
 

Stuntman

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,157
It's just the good ol' both sides mantra that centrists like to spew. It makes them feel better about enabling bigots.
 

hjort

Member
Nov 9, 2017
4,096
because we have to share the world with them

its like you live in a college dorm with a shitty roommate and they make a mess, and the filth, stench, and cockroaches spill over into your side of the room no matter how clean you are on your side. essentially, somebody has to talk them down somehow or they ruin existence for everyone else
Or you kick them the fuck out. Because not only is their behaviour unacceptable, they are actively trying to get others to make the same mess which ultimately threatens the well-being of others (which is in fact the whole point of it), and they are not even interested in you having a side of your own at all. So fuck them and their entire existence. We don't have to share the world with nazis. Not if we don't keep treating their genocidal ideology as something valid and worthy of polite debate. Fuck this hippie bullshit.
 
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DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,338
I have no problems with trying to help people realize their insane beliefs are wrong. But it has to come from them, not from me. It's happened before -- look at Daryl Davis' work with former KKK members. But I'm not going to 'respect' or 'tolerate' a nazi's ideas that is based on killing other people because of their skin color or religion. That's insanity.
Darly Davis was proven to not work
 

Bing147

Member
Jun 13, 2018
3,689
I think when given the opportunity it is good for those who have the emotional bandwidth/energy to try to talk to people who aren't all the way gone, people who have perhaps started to cross over into negative beliefs but who haven't gone all the way or who are just ignorant of either side but have started to find some negative influences. It can sometimes stop them from going the rest of the way. Once they've fully crossed over though? You're just wasting your time. It isn't that people can't come back from that, they can (though cases of them doing so will be rare). It has to come from them having a genuine desire to change though.

Even with people it can be healthy to talk with, there shouldn't be an expectation that anyone should have to do so. Some people are just worn out. Some people can no longer spare the emotional baggage that can come from those conversations. Some people those negative beliefs hit more personally and they can't put themselves out there, or have to do so far too often, to the point where its exhausting. That's okay. Knowing your own boundaries is healthy.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,915
It's a useful tool but should never be advocated for in favor of every other tool that is easier and more effective. Some people are just myopic and think that it's a uniquely effective tool despite all evidence pointing against it
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,301
New York
I don't think we need to talk to Nazis. But I definitely think we (and white allies especially) need to talk to people that Nazis are trying to sway to their cause. And I don't mean 'nazi sympathizers" outright. I mean some impressionable teenager or young adult that's really ignorant about a lot of things and lacks the life experiences/perspective required to spot a Nazi outright.

Guys like Richard Spencer and Stefan Molyneux have really tried to re-brand white nationalism to broaden the appeal towards people that normally would recoil if they came outright and said "The Nazis weren't too bad, let's be like them" or "I am a Nazi". But when they start to rephrase their shit and pivot to dogwhistles like "defending western civilization" there are sadly ALOT of people that don't recognize it for what it is.

So while I'm not in favor of talking to Nazis we have to engage their target audience. And it's not garuanteed you can reach everyone. The work is slow, difficult, and long term. But I'd rather that than their numbers continue to swell.

A lot of lives actually really depend on such engagement. After Jan 6 Capitol Insurrection I hope more understand the stakes. As eye-roll inducing as it may be from my perspective.
 

Eoin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,103
People who think this normally have several (but probably not all) of the following traits:

- they do not need to be worried by Nazis. The existence of Nazis does not present a problem for them, or (probably more commonly) does not present anything more than an intellectual problem.

- they are conflict averse. The idea of getting involved in a conflict terrifies them.

- they have internalised the naive idea that when two people are arguing the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

- they haven't ever tried talking to Nazis and don't ever intend to. The people who say that it's good to talk to Nazis are, in my experience, people who have never knowingly found themselves in any kind of discussion with a Nazi. They may therefore wildly overestimate the ability of a rational person to convince a Nazi to stop being a Nazi, or in fact to convince a Nazi of anything that they aren't pre-inclined to agree with.

- they fundamentally agree with some elements of what the Nazi is saying. Even if this is subconscious. Even if it's just the notion that all ideas are worthy of expression.
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,113
because people have no idea what a "slippery slope" actually is.

which in this case, is letting the nazi talk.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,301
New York
Daryl Davis wasn't even all that successful, and in turn has become more antagonistic to black people than white racists.

Fuck 'im. And Nazis.

I don't doubt your in the slightest but how did due become more antagonistic to black people than white racists? Just curious. Haven't heard that before.

because people have no idea what a "slippery slope" actually is.

They know. They just don't care because they don't think it'll impact them and theirs...
 

nsilvias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,722
Its priveleged idealism. They've never been on the receiving end of hate so they don't get it
 

Jegriva

Banned
Sep 23, 2019
5,519
We should make a distinction between Neo-Nazis, alt-righters, etc.. and people who fall prey to their rhetoric. That's the people we could "talk to".
 

J_ToSaveTheDay

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
18,789
USA
Going to guess that many that say this aren't at risk of being affected negatively by Nazi or far-right ideology enough to give a shit
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,297
new jersey
I don't think we need to talk to Nazis. But I definitely think we (and white allies especially) need to talk to people that Nazis are trying to sway to their cause. And I don't mean 'nazi sympathizers" outright. I mean some impressionable teenager or young adult that's really ignorant about a lot of things and lacks the life experiences/perspective required to spot a Nazi outright.

Guys like Richard Spencer and Stefan Molyneux have really tried to re-brand white nationalism to broaden the appeal towards people that normally would recoil if they came outright and said "The Nazis weren't too bad, let's be like them" or "I am a Nazi". But when they start to rephrase their shit and pivot to dogwhistles like "defending western civilization" there are sadly ALOT of people that don't recognize it for what it is.

So while I'm not in favor of talking to Nazis we have to engage their target audience. And it's not garuanteed you can reach everyone. The work is slow, difficult, and long term. But I'd rather that than their numbers continue to swell.

A lot of lives actually really depend on such engagement. After Jan 6 Capitol Insurrection I hope more understand the stakes. As eye-roll inducing as it may be from my perspective.
Agreed!
 

Midramble

Force of Habit
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,457
San Francisco
Dialogue and discussion should always be the first recourse up to the threshold that the other person advocates violence.

It's just that, in the case of nazis, that threshold is inherently immediate.
 

I Don't Like

Member
Dec 11, 2017
14,898
Some genuinely believe in the ability to deradicalize people and use them to deradicalize others - which is obviously a thing - but most are disingenuous douche bags and far right sympathizers and enablers. Some are truly delusional and tell themselves modern day nazis and fascists don't actually exist; others simply believe those people should be accepted into the "marketplace of ideas" under the guise of listening to the other side and whatever bullshit.
 

Gabbo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,565
They're incredibly naïve in their assumptions on taking the highroad and being the better person will be enough to sway someone from their ideology.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,680
I don't doubt your in the slightest but how did due become more antagonistic to black people than white racists? Just curious. Haven't heard that before.
He's clashed with BLM protesters before. He shot back at one protester who asked him why he's spent more time talking to racists than investing money back into black communities by simply calling him "a 21-year old college dropout." Dude's a total fuckboi; probably spent so much time "deprogramming" racists that he's got more affinity for them than black folks.
 

lowmelody

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,101
Probably because they have friends and/or family that are nazis/white supremacists/racists.

Fuck that and fuck anyone's nazi family member. :)
 
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DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,338
He's clashed with BLM protesters before. He shot back at one protester who asked him why he's spent more time talking to racists than investing money back into black communities by simply calling him "a 21-year old college dropout." Dude's a total fuckboi; probably spent so much time "deprogramming" racists that he's got more affinity for them than black folks.
He's a quisling like the guy I talked to
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,097
Sydney
You are generally taught as a very young child to work through your problems by talking to people so it's not surprising people make this mistake.

Also people in college are very naive and malleable and don't really understand how the world works so the idea you can change a Nazi's mind with an argument seems to make sense to them.
 

Paroni

Member
Dec 17, 2020
3,408
As we all know, WW2 was won by talking with the Nazis and everybody lived happily ever after.

To be historically honest, everybody tried to just talk with the Nazis until they started shooting. Every world leader from London to Moscow was trying to just appease Hitler until he started an actual war in Poland and later attacked Soviet Union, Nazis were the active party in declaring war on USA as well.
 

Lifendz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,391
Nazi's tend to be white, and it's a different reaction to reprehensible behavior that's committed by white people.