Why could Future Gohan not beat the Androids?

PK Gaming · Jun 11, 2021

Super Saiyan Full Power

This article is about the mastered Super Saiyan. For the form of the same name used by Broly, see Legendary Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan Full Power (超スーパーサイヤ人じんフルパワー, Sūpā Saiya-jin Furu Pawā, "Super Saiyan Full Power"), only ever referred to as Super Saiyan (超スーパーサイヤ人じん, Sūpā Saiya-jin)...

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With this form the androids wouldn't be able to touch Future Gohan

Imran · Jun 11, 2021

Just because you have potential doesn't mean you're guaranteed to hit it

Gohan lost all his teachers at once and there was no one left to help him unlock that potential. If it were just a matter of him getting mad, he would have killed Nappa and Vegeta when Piccolo died.

Mekanos · Jun 11, 2021

Really I think the question is how did Trunks have such a hard time against them then acquire Grade 2 within just a few months of ROSAT training, which is more than enough power to turn them into scrap metal. I know Super kinda retconned this to indicate he did train with Vegeta (though it was fairly rough training by all accounts), but it just seems weird that Trunks hit a wall in his timeline then quickly powers up in the main timeline.

Lebron · Jun 11, 2021

Because it's Gohan. He's fools gold no matter the timeline

Whipwhopper · Jun 11, 2021

Everyone was killed when he was 11, so he had no one to train him more

Welfare · Jun 11, 2021

Mekanos said:
Really I think the question is how did Trunks have such a hard time against them then acquire Grade 2 within just a few months of ROSAT training, which is more than enough power to turn them into scrap metal. I know Super kinda retconned this to indicate he did train with Vegeta (though it was fairly rough training by all accounts), but it just seems weird that Trunks hit a wall in his timeline then quickly powers up in the main timeline.

No one thought to go beyond Super Saiyan until after the Androids proved to be too strong even after 3 years of training specifically knowing they were stronger than Super Saiyans. Goku and Vegeta are the ones that thought of it, not Gohan or Trunks.

Real question is how can Super Saiyan 2 only be a 2x buff when Grade 2 should be equivalent to that. Did Vegeta really think "Beyond Super Saiyan" was less than a 2x boost?

Pandaman · Jun 11, 2021

Mekanos said:
Really I think the question is how did Trunks have such a hard time against them then acquire Grade 2 within just a few months of ROSAT training, which is more than enough power to turn them into scrap metal. I know Super kinda retconned this to indicate he did train with Vegeta (though it was fairly rough training by all accounts), but it just seems weird that Trunks hit a wall in his timeline then quickly powers up in the main timeline.

the ROSAT has a bunch of secondary features that make training more strenuous/effective compared to just training on your own in a field somewhere.

Mekanos · Jun 11, 2021

Welfare said:
No one thought to go beyond Super Saiyan until after the Androids proved to be too strong even after 3 years of training specifically knowing they were stronger than Super Saiyans.

Real question is how can Super Saiyan 2 only be a 2x buff when Grade 2 exists.

The 2x buff applies to FPSSJ (also known as grade 4). Grade 2/3 seems to have a hard limit and no official multiplier.

Pandaman said:
the ROSAT has a bunch of secondary features that make training more strenuous/effective compared to just training on your own in a field somewhere.

This is true, but even so, you figure a couple of years of regular training can make up for it. But really it's just plot convenient I know I'm already thinking about it more than Toriyama did, lol.

Welfare · Jun 11, 2021

Mekanos said:
The 2x buff applies to FPSSJ (also known as grade 4). Grade 2/3 seems to have a hard limit and no official multiplier.

Yeah but Toriyama retconned Grade 4 into Super Saiyan 1 when he had Goku show off to Buu. Then they say SSJ2 is 2x SSJ1, but what is Grade 4? Just the same 50x or much stronger?

elty · Jun 11, 2021

The current gohan stand on giants shoulder.

Nairume · Jun 11, 2021

BasilZero said:
Actually the important question that should be asked is why after the Android/Cell saga....didnt Future Trunks go to Namek and use the Namekian Dragon balls to bring back everyone who were killed by the Androids in the future?

He'd have to know where New Namek was and have a way to get there. It's likely that wasn't an option.

VariantX · Jun 11, 2021

I just feel like at this point its something not even worth worrying about because character's power transformed into this nebulous thing so the writer can avoid writing themselves into a corner out of convenience. You just don't really get much of a idea of how much more powerful a form of SS until someone is suddenly getting their ass kicked or kicking someone's ass. You get that one is more powerful than the other, but you never know the true size of the gap, only that is big enough to where the victim of the beat down is getting clowned.

Art__Thief · Jun 11, 2021

Because, no one stepped on android 16's head in that timeline.

Euphoria · Jun 11, 2021

DeliciousSunnyD! said:
Because it was just a super simple, short-hand way for them to go "THESE GUYS ARE REAL STRONG AND SCARY! THE STAKES ARE HIGH!!!"

A.k.a. "The Worf Effect"

This upsets me because this sums up Vegeta's entire existence. Getting his ass whooped to raise the stakes for Goku. :(

Mekanos · Jun 12, 2021

Welfare said:
Yeah but Toriyama retconned Grade 4 into Super Saiyan 1 when he had Goku show off to Buu. Then they say SSJ2 is 2x SSJ1, but what is Grade 4? Just the same 50x or much stronger?

I assume it's more conservation of detail - you just assume now when Goku turns Super Saiyan 1 he's at full power/Grade 4 unless he says otherwise (and probably all the other SSJs, who seem to be relaxed and easy going in the form, including the squirts). There are plenty of times where they draw out the transformation on their first few fights and as they get used to it they can go from 0 to 50 pretty much instantly (or 50 to 100, etc).

Like when Goku demonstrates half his power for Karin after coming back from the ROSAT, Vegeta assumes it's his full power and his smug attitude when he returns from his second year of training implies he surpassed half of Goku's ki, only to be shocked by his true strength and says only Goku has a chance against Cell (until Gohan obviously). Meanwhile in Buu pretty much all the Saiyans can access their first form instantly (and SSJ2 for Goku and Majin Vegeta). So the assumption I always ran with is as they get more powerful the transformations become easier, and Goku's base is likely greatly strengthened after unlocking Grade 4.

Based on Super though and how Toriyama says something to the effect that the multiplier doesn't matter once you reach a certain power, I kinda assumed he regretted throwing out multipliers so hastily in the Daizenshuu all those years ago. Like SSJ3 is definitely not portrayed as 4x stronger than SSJ2, that's just a massive gap.

jman2050 · Jun 12, 2021

It's worth noting that the future androids were utterly ruthless and highly efficient fighters. Gohan measured up reasonably well to them all things considered but between having to fight two of them (and the two were not afraid to work in tandem against a strong fighter) and general lack of real fighting training given his mentors are all dead it's no wonder he never had a chance of flashing his potential against them despite all his attempts to do so.

Crossing Eden · Jun 12, 2021

You're asking why an untrained Gohan who lived peacefully studying for years wasn't strong enough to defeat two opponents who managed to kill all of his friends?

The REAL question is what happened to all the king Kai guidance stuff. Like why was Gohan and Trunks essentially abandoned when they've used king kai's powers for threats less severe than the androids

Squarehard · Jun 12, 2021

Too busy studying.

Welfare · Jun 12, 2021

Mekanos said:
I assume it's more conservation of detail - you just assume now when Goku turns Super Saiyan 1 he's at full power/Grade 4 unless he says otherwise (and probably all the other SSJs, who seem to be relaxed and easy going in the form, including the squirts). There are plenty of times where they draw out the transformation on their first few fights and as they get used to it they can go from 0 to 50 pretty much instantly (or 50 to 100, etc).

Like when Goku demonstrates half his power for Karin after coming back from the ROSAT, Vegeta assumes it's his full power and his smug attitude when he returns from his second year of training implies he surpassed half of Goku's ki, only to be shocked by his true strength and says only Goku has a chance against Cell (until Gohan obviously). Meanwhile in Buu pretty much all the Saiyans can access their first form instantly (and SSJ2 for Goku and Majin Vegeta). So the assumption I always ran with is as they get more powerful the transformations become easier, and Goku's base is likely greatly strengthened after unlocking Grade 4.

Based on Super though and how Toriyama says something to the effect that the multiplier doesn't matter once you reach a certain power, I kinda assumed he regretted throwing out multipliers so hastily in the Daizenshuu all those years ago. Like SSJ3 is definitely not portrayed as 4x stronger than SSJ2, that's just a massive gap.

Yeah, with how Grade 4 works being "Super Saiyan in their natural state", Goku and Gohan could just take SSJ down to low power levels and train from there which would could give massive explosions in power compared to training in base, since Super Saiyan is tougher than base.

However Super kind of supports Grade 4 is above 50x going by the Vegeta V Cabba fight. Vegeta thinks to himself Cabba in base is his equal but when they both go Super Saiyan with Cabba having a rage boost, Vegeta is easily above Cabba and gladly no sells a punch to the head.

When did Toriyama say that?

Mekanos · Jun 12, 2021

Welfare said:
Yeah, with how Grade 4 works being "Super Saiyan in their natural state", Goku and Gohan could just take SSJ down to low power levels and train from there which would could give massive explosions in power compared to training in base, since Super Saiyan is tougher than base.

However Super kind of supports Grade 4 is above 50x going by the Vegeta V Cabba fight. Vegeta thinks to himself Cabba in base is his equal but when they both go Super Saiyan with Cabba having a rage boost, Vegeta is easily above Cabba and gladly no sells a punch to the head.

When did Toriyama say that?

It was a couple of years ago when Super started airing, I'm on mobile so let's see if I can get it...

Not a direct quote but here you go:

www.cbr.com/dragon-ball-master-old-forms-more-power/amp/

"Akira Toriyama has speculated that should Goku totally master Super Saiyan 3, that form's physical features would disappear -- allowing Goku to gain the power, control and appearance of standard Super Saiyan with the power multiplier of Super Saiyan 3. This would allow him to progress back up to Super Saiyan 3's forced power control, creating a cycle where Goku can increase in power over and over again as well as increasing his ki Control."

Essentially in theory if you mastered SSJ3 you could collapse the power of the first three forms into SSJ1.

fertygo · Jun 12, 2021

Super saiyan Vegeta also got rekt by the Android
Its very safe to assume future Gohan just around that level

Welfare · Jun 12, 2021

Mekanos said:
It was a couple of years ago when Super started airing, I'm on mobile so let's see if I can get it...

Not a direct quote but here you go:

www.cbr.com/dragon-ball-master-old-forms-more-power/amp/

"Akira Toriyama has speculated that should Goku totally master Super Saiyan 3, that form's physical features would disappear -- allowing Goku to gain the power, control and appearance of standard Super Saiyan with the power multiplier of Super Saiyan 3. This would allow him to progress back up to Super Saiyan 3's forced power control, creating a cycle where Goku can increase in power over and over again as well as increasing his ki Control."

Essentially in theory if you mastered SSJ3 you could collapse the power of the first three forms into SSJ1.

So basically this could also mean Grade 4 is beyond Grade 3 in power and Goku already did that, but hasn't yet for 2 or 3.

But it isn't even a confirmation just Toriyama being non committal.

BasilZero · Jun 12, 2021

Nairume said:
He'd have to know where New Namek was and have a way to get there. It's likely that wasn't an option.

Yeah that is what I see people saying in other places when I googled it - but then Goku would have been able to visit or communicate with the Earthlings like he did during the Buu Saga....a plot hole for the most part but oh well lol.

TheMadTitan · Jun 12, 2021

Because it was two on one.

Cheerilee · Jun 12, 2021

Both timelines:

- Gohan was dragged into the Raditz fight by Raditz. He was dragged into the Nappa/Vegeta fight by Piccolo. He was never supposed to fight Vegeta/Ginyu/Freeza on Namek, that was just shit that happened while he was trying to revive his new dad (Piccolo).
- On Namek, Freeza curbstomped everyone, no contest, including Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta, and Goku. Once Goku went SSJ, he curbstomped Freeza, no contest. Freeza was a whole league above Saiyans, while SSJ was a whole league above Freeza.
- After SSJ Goku saved everyone, they got transported to Earth, while Goku dipped to go learn Instant Transmission. Vegeta moved in with Bulma as he trained (but never reached SSJ) and waited for Goku, while Gohan went back to school.
- Cyborg Freeza arrives on Earth looking for revenge.

Trunks' timeline:

- Goku jumps into the Cyborg Freeza fight using Instant Transmission, and kills Freeza. Everyone is once again singlehandedly saved by their hero SSJ Goku.
- Vegeta and Bulma have baby Trunks.
- Goku dies of a heart attack.
- The Androids arrive.
- Everyone else gets killed. Gohan and Trunks, the two kids of the group, are the only survivors (and Bulma).
- Gohan manages to learn SSJ on his own. It's not enough. He gets his ass kicked and loses an arm protecting Trunks.
- Gohan dies, and Trunks learns SSJ. It's not enough. He gets his ass kicked. He gives up and agrees to use Bulma's time machine.

Our timeline:

- Trunks wonders what's taking Goku so long to stop Cyborg Freeza, so he jumps in and kills Cyborg Freeza instead. Goku was apparently waiting for Trunks while Trunks was waiting for Goku.
- The sudden appearance of a second SSJ (Trunks), along with his warning about the Androids, pushes Vegeta to unlock SSJ for himself too. Vegeta was somewhat okay with Goku being the Chosen One, but if SSJ is something that can be reached by multiple people, then Vegeta has to reach it.
- Goku has his heart attack, but survives.
- SSJ Vegeta tries playing the great hero but gets his ass kicked.
- Vegeta and Future Trunks train to find something more than SSJ, as do Goku and Gohan (after Goku pushes Gohan into SSJ).

In Trunks' timeline, Gohan was in no position to take on Freeza, let alone the Androids. Not until he grew up and learned SSJ, but by then it was just him alone, and Androids have repeatedly been shown to be able to beat SSJs, and the Androids had a two-against-one advantage over Gohan. In our timeline, with four SSJs, they still decided "Yeah, we should probably find something better than SSJ before trying again."

PhoenixAKG · Jun 12, 2021

Serious question. Why didn't Future Goku contact Future Gohan with King Kai and help him find New Namek or tell him about the Hyperbolic Time Chamber?

BasilZero · Jun 12, 2021

PhoenixAKG said:
Serious question. Why didn't Future Goku contact Future Gohan with King Kai and help him find New Namek or tell him about the Hyperbolic Time Chamber?

Future Goku was like "Screw it, I'm the main character and I got written out of the story, so shall everyone else".

Zeal543 · Jun 12, 2021

gigantor21 said:
Toriyama doesn't give a shit about Gohan's potential.

yup, all characters got powered down in favor of goku post cell saga

MetagrossMaster · Jun 12, 2021

Gohan in the normal timeline trained for three years with his father, who is a martial arts genius. Later on, he trains an additional year with his father non-stop in the Room of Spirit and Time. Compare that to Future Gohan, who did not train for three years before the Androids arrived, and did not have a teacher for the remaining time. I think it is obvious why he couldn't defeat the Androids.

RainerDrix · Jun 12, 2021

PhoenixAKG said:
Serious question. Why didn't Future Goku contact Future Gohan with King Kai and help him find New Namek or tell him about the Hyperbolic Time Chamber?

Maybe because Goku's fated to die of the virus, he wouldn't be able to keep his "body" in the afterlife and would've returned to spirit form before reincarnating. It would be the same reason why they couldn't use the Dragon Balls to heal Goku of the virus.

Deleted member 28307 · Jun 12, 2021

SSJ is just a multiplier of your power, you can be a SSJ and still not be that powerful.

On that timeline the only proper training gohan got was from piccolo pre saiyan arc. Hell he just survived because the androids liked to toy with him

L Thammy · Jun 12, 2021

I don't think the manga showed when Gohan lost his arm, so it's possible that when the other Z Warriors were getting killed, Gohan was also injured.

Mewzard · Jun 12, 2021

The Adder said:
There's a 1 year limit on people being revived on all three sets of Dragon Balls.

Yes and no.

There's a 1 year limit on reviving a group of people.

There's never been a limit on reviving one individual.

The first time we ever heard about the one year limit, it was on the matter of reviving those killed by Freeza and his soldiers IIRC. Which they had been doing for decades.

L Thammy · Jun 12, 2021

BasilZero said:
Actually the important question that should be asked is why after the Android/Cell saga....didnt Future Trunks go to Namek and use the Namekian Dragon balls to bring back everyone who were killed by the Androids in the future?

Do they even know where the Namekians are? The original Namek doesn't exist anymore.

I'm honestly forgetting how the Namekians got to New Namek. Quickly checking the Dragonball wiki, it looks like King Kai found it and they were wished there. Goku gets there by Instant Transmission later, so he just has to detect a Namekian ki, he doesn't have to know where the planet is beforehand as with a spaceship.

TheMadTitan · Jun 12, 2021

Zeal543 said:
yup, all characters got powered down in favor of goku post cell saga

And then in Super, all characters got random power boosts to get closer to Goku.

Kagari · Jun 12, 2021

L Thammy said:
I don't think the manga showed when Gohan lost his arm, so it's possible that when the other Z Warriors were getting killed, Gohan was also injured.

It was recent in proximity to the start of the short manga chapter it's shown in. Trunks comments that it's unfortunate they didn't have a senzu to restore his arm and later when Gohan meets the Androids, 17 mentions it's been a year and he's surprised he survived.

To answer the OP's question, Future Gohan was always just a prop for Trunks. He's only in a handful of manga pages and dies quickly (we don't even see the fight) because he trained for a year and found out 17 wasn't going all out the whole time.

TheMadTitan · Jun 12, 2021

L Thammy said:
Do they even know where the Namekians are? The original Namek doesn't exist anymore.

I'm honestly forgetting how the Namekians got to New Namek. Quickly checking the Dragonball wiki, it looks like King Kai found it and they were wished there. Goku gets there by Instant Transmission later, so he just has to detect a Namekian ki, he doesn't have to know where the planet is beforehand as with a spaceship.

The real question is why Goku didn't contact them via King Kai's telepathy to tell them where to go find New Namek.

Mewzard · Jun 12, 2021

Ocarina_117 said:
Okay so this has been confusing me for years.

All the strife future Gohan went through, a life full of combat and loss.... why could he never power up and beat the Androids?

Bare in mind 16 and 17 of his timeline were weaker than the actual 16 and 17.

We're told he's the character with the most potential, but present timeline adult Gohan never reaches it as he (understandably) gives up fighting.

A Gohan who's spent a lifetime in combat should have surpassed the androids with ease.

Actually, in the manga, that whole "17 and 18 were weaker" thing was a misunderstanding by Trunks.

Trunks wasn't there to hear 17 and 18 reveal the last time they fought Future Gohan, they using like half their power. With a shot of Gohan's horror, he's killed off screen.

It was never indicated that Trunks learned this before going back to the past.

electroshockwave · Jun 12, 2021

The Adder said:
There's a 1 year limit.

There's a 1 year limit on people being revived on all three sets of Dragon Balls.

How did Frieza get revived in Resurrection F/Super then?

Hoa · Jun 12, 2021

Cheerilee said:
Both timelines:

- Gohan was dragged into the Raditz fight by Raditz. He was dragged into the Nappa/Vegeta fight by Piccolo. He was never supposed to fight Vegeta/Ginyu/Freeza on Namek, that was just shit that happened while he was trying to revive his new dad (Piccolo).
- On Namek, Freeza curbstomped everyone, no contest, including Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta, and Goku. Once Goku went SSJ, he curbstomped Freeza, no contest. Freeza was a whole league above Saiyans, while SSJ was a whole league above Freeza.
- After SSJ Goku saved everyone, they got transported to Earth, while Goku dipped to go learn Instant Transmission. Vegeta moved in with Bulma as he trained (but never reached SSJ) and waited for Goku, while Gohan went back to school.
- Cyborg Freeza arrives on Earth looking for revenge.

Trunks' timeline:

- Goku jumps into the Cyborg Freeza fight using Instant Transmission, and kills Freeza. Everyone is once again singlehandedly saved by their hero SSJ Goku.
- Vegeta and Bulma have baby Trunks.
- Goku dies of a heart attack.
- The Androids arrive.
- Everyone else gets killed. Gohan and Trunks, the two kids of the group, are the only survivors (and Bulma).
- Gohan manages to learn SSJ on his own. It's not enough. He gets his ass kicked and loses an arm protecting Trunks.
- Gohan dies, and Trunks learns SSJ. It's not enough. He gets his ass kicked. He gives up and agrees to use Bulma's time machine.

Our timeline:

- Trunks wonders what's taking Goku so long to stop Cyborg Freeza, so he jumps in and kills Cyborg Freeza instead. Goku was apparently waiting for Trunks while Trunks was waiting for Goku.
- The sudden appearance of a second SSJ (Trunks), along with his warning about the Androids, pushes Vegeta to unlock SSJ for himself too. Vegeta was somewhat okay with Goku being the Chosen One, but if SSJ is something that can be reached by multiple people, then Vegeta has to reach it.
- Goku has his heart attack, but survives.
- SSJ Vegeta tries playing the great hero but gets his ass kicked.
- Vegeta and Future Trunks train to find something more than SSJ, as do Goku and Gohan (after Goku pushes Gohan into SSJ).

In Trunks' timeline, Gohan was in no position to take on Freeza, let alone the Androids. Not until he grew up and learned SSJ, but by then it was just him alone, and Androids have repeatedly been shown to be able to beat SSJs, and the Androids had a two-against-one advantage over Gohan. In our timeline, with four SSJs, they still decided "Yeah, we should probably find something better than SSJ before trying again."

This post pretty much nails it

L Thammy · Jun 12, 2021

electroshockwave said:
How did Frieza get revived in Resurrection F/Super then?

Apparently that's only with multiple people.

Although the rules are reconfigured depending on who is in charge of the Dragonballs so maybe that's also at play.

NeonZ · Jun 12, 2021

Ocarina_117 said:
Bare in mind 16 and 17 of his timeline were weaker than the actual 16 and 17.

This might not actually be the case. The Trunks backstory chapter in the manga came fairly late into the Cell Saga, after it was established that the future androids were weaker than than past ones. However, in that chapter, right before killing Gohan, 17 reveals that they were just playing around all the time and weren't using even half of their power. Trunks seems to think he could keep up with the androids in one on one when he got as strong as Gohan, so it's very likely they were just toying with him too. Of course, this is all lost in the anime, where they have 17 needing to team up with 18 to kill Gohan.

Either way, like mentioned above, Future Gohan wasn't the focus so there just wasn't much thought put into why he couldn't grow more than that.

Lord Azrael · Jun 12, 2021

hisdadjesty said:
Piccolo wasn't there to tuck him into bed.

hisdadjesty
Member

fertygo · Jun 12, 2021

We got the whole gang got rekt by the androids before Cell eating them and most of this thread post is just "LOL DBZ"

Dwebble · Jun 12, 2021

Resurrection F shows what happens when Gohan goes without training for an upcoming threat for an extended period of time.

It goes poorly.

CO_Andy · Jun 12, 2021

all the poachers were killed

TheMadTitan · Jun 12, 2021

Dwebble said:
Resurrection F shows what happens when Gohan goes without training for an upcoming threat for an extended period of time.

It goes poorly.

But Gohan bodied everyone except for a Frieza that jumped to God level, so it's okay.

Kurtikeya · Jun 12, 2021

Keep in mind that the Z Fighters were preparing like hell for three whole years, with only Goku and Piccolo taking a single day off to try and go get their driver's license. Even with all that training and with Vegeta wrecking 19, they still got toyed with by 18, so much so that Vegeta fucked off and Piccolo got pissed to the point of deciding to merge with Kami.

In the future timeline, they didn't have that kind of prep time and Gohan, who still struggled against Cell to the very end, didn't have people to develop him. Goku dying early probably also left him uninspired to continue fighting, focusing instead of caring for Chi-Chi until the Androids arrived.

Tight Shoe · Jun 12, 2021

for anime, for pushing the arc. he could have.

Atolm · Jun 12, 2021

He had no one to train with. He was expecting for Trunks to catch up with him and go from there. Also while weaker, 17 and 18 from the future always went 2vs1

Why could Future Gohan not beat the Androids?

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